[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Pieman0920]

Hurp Derp, I have not been here for awhile. Family related issues and trips to other parts of the country and what not.

I think I've said many times before how I don't really think Toad would be all that great of a choice, and again stress that the Yoshi in Smash isn't the main Mario series Yoshi, but rather the main Yoshi series Yoshi. (A bit confusing so whatever) In regards to Toads and his character being generic though, he really is, since the main Toad from SMB2 has all but faded away into non-existance, which is a contrast to the main Yoshi at its inclusion in Smash 64. Whatever way you actually spin it though, the ice ball attack from NSMBWii shouldn't be its neutral special, and at best works as a side special. =/

And @ SmashChu, considering Smash is a multiplayer game, odds are that no single player experience will go over that well with fans, sicne they don't care about it much in the end.

 

[dcubed]

I have a feeling that the next game will have a different variation of mario in some way, similar to melee with Dr. mario. Perhaps they will bring him back, or make baby mario, or maybe even a classic mario being 2d to give G&W a run for his money.

As for toad, I feel he is pretty deserving. The man never gets any credit! But, I feel like footstooling would be easiest on him. My guess as to a character no one mentioned, is going to be Battletoads, and or double dragon people. I mean look at battletoads going to the wii's virtual console, it speaks for itself.

 

[Propeller Toad]

I think I've said many times before how I don't really think Toad would be all that great of a choice, and again stress that the Yoshi in Smash isn't the main Mario series Yoshi, but rather the main Yoshi series Yoshi. (A bit confusing so whatever) In regards to Toads and his character being generic though, he really is, since the main Toad from SMB2 has all but faded away into non-existance, which is a contrast to the main Yoshi at its inclusion in Smash 64. Whatever way you actually spin it though, the ice ball attack from NSMBWii shouldn't be its neutral special, and at best works as a side special. =/

Mario & Luigi also have fireballs as their standard specials so I don't see why Toad can't have the iceballs as his neutral. Also Toad (himself) may have faded away in the main games but he is still highly recognizable to many Nintendo fans. If the Toads were to be represented by a toad it would be this Toad as he is practiclly the face of them, appearing in many of the spinnoffs as well as one of the major mario characters in the series. Even if he and the toads had faded, they still played important roles in the past (as well as recently) and that must not be forgotten for characters who just got recent success.

 

[Shorts]

I have a feeling that the next game will have a different variation of mario in some way, similar to melee with Dr. mario. Perhaps they will bring him back, or make baby mario, or maybe even a classic mario being 2d to give G&W a run for his money.

As for toad, I feel he is pretty deserving. The man never gets any credit! But, I feel like footstooling would be easiest on him. My guess as to a character no one mentioned, is going to be Battletoads, and or double dragon people. I mean look at battletoads going to the wii's virtual console, it speaks for itself.

i most definitely agree that mario alter-ego will be in ssb4. i hope for paper mario, considering the paper mario games are very fun and pmarios moveset could include pmarios mallet, spike boots, and all his helpers

i like the actual character buddies over those navi-esk sprite things.
i loved pm1 and 2, but i didnt like the third one as much.

 

[Mowrt620]

I think that instead of mario having many color changes, he could have costumes like racoon, dr. mario, and stuff like that. No different moves tho....or different characters, just costume!

 

[Fatmanonice]

Alternative costumes would be cool but they'd have to be careful not to make them too complicated because then they'd have to do different animations for the clothes if they're too different from the default one.

 

[Big-Cat]

Alternative costumes would be cool but they'd have to be careful not to make them too complicated because then they'd have to do different animations for the clothes if they're too different from the default one.

The thing is, there are certain characters where you can't think of much of anything outside of original material. What are we going to give the Ice Climbers for example?

That being said, I would personally prefer to see alt. CHARACTERS which would be kinda like clones but with all stats the same.

 

[Pieman0920]

Mario & Luigi also have fireballs as their standard specials so I don't see why Toad can't have the iceballs as his neutral. Also Toad (himself) may have faded away in the main games but he is still highly recognizable to many Nintendo fans. If the Toads were to be represented by a toad it would be this Toad as he is practiclly the face of them, appearing in many of the spinnoffs as well as one of the major mario characters in the series. Even if he and the toads had faded, they still played important roles in the past (as well as recently) and that must not be forgotten for characters who just got recent success.

Nine times out of ten when it comes to neutral specials, the character uses one of their main or well known abilities. (Mario/Luigi have the fireball. Kirby has the copy. Link has his arrows. I can go on forever here) Otherwise its something made up, but in the realm of belief given the character (DK's giant punch. Zelda's fire which is believable given the moveset created for her) In regards to Toad and iceballs though, that's just one thing that he may or may not use in one game's apperance, and thus not a very fitting neutral special. If that's the best thing that can really be used for him, its actually a pretty telling sign that he doesn't really have the moves. Quite frankly, the whole ice thing is akin to Yoshi suddenly having that ice melon spitting thing he does in Yoshi's Island, or Bowser using the hammer throw he used back in SMB. It just doesn't seem right as the character's biggest signature move, even though they may have done it before.

And of course he's still recognizable, because he's a generic character now. Every one knows what a goomba or a koopa troopa looks like too, but that doesn't make them viable. And that toad was the face of them, and I emphasize was.. His existance is only because Doki Doki Panic had four characters, and since SMB2, he has had less and less of a role, and become less and less independant. Toadsworth took over his old role has Peach's main toad, and the two pallet swap toads took away his status as the playable toads. And he's not really a major Mario character at all either, given that his one big role in the series was all just a dream, and all other apperances in the series are akin to dead weight. Now the toads as a character race on the whole do have a greater role when you add them all up, instead of just focusing on that main Toad, but really, so have other Mario characters. Goombas and Koopa Troopas also have loads of roles, apperances, and all the other things that toads have done, and all things considered, if there's a generic race that should be represented, then they are more deserving.



Anyways, for characters who don't have any readily apperant alt costume to draw upon from their series, I don't think a bit of creativity or outside refferencing is that bad. In the case of the Ice Climbers, they could be given the Balloon Fighter uniform as a alt costume.

 

[mystery_dungeon]

If he wasn't a Mega Man character, Ice Man would work as an alt of Popo.

 

[Propeller Toad]

And of course he's still recognizable, because he's a generic character now. Every one knows what a goomba or a koopa troopa looks like too, but that doesn't make them viable. And that toad was the face of them, and I emphasize was.. His existance is only because Doki Doki Panic had four characters, and since SMB2, he has had less and less of a role, and become less and less independant. Toadsworth took over his old role has Peach's main toad, and the two pallet swap toads took away his status as the playable toads. And he's not really a major Mario character at all either, given that his one big role in the series was all just a dream, and all other apperances in the series are akin to dead weight. Now the toads as a character race on the whole do have a greater role when you add them all up, instead of just focusing on that main Toad, but really, so have other Mario characters. Goombas and Koopa Troopas also have loads of roles, apperances, and all the other things that toads have done, and all things considered, if there's a generic race that should be represented, then they are more deserving.

Yeah I guess it is true that ice balls wouldn't fit in with his character..

However Smb 2 is still important. Peach only had really 2 major times as a playable character as well being SMB 2 and SPP (and somewhat Mario RPG ). Sure she had been in almost every super mario brothers game, but usually as the damsel in distress. However she is recognizable of the characters very much like Toad and Yoshi. She too got in smash by melee though many moves had to be made up using her character traits and Toad can easily be helped this way into a fighter. Sure he is definately not in a position near Peach but he still is important with roles of SMB2, wario's woods and nsmb wii helping him. Also with SMB 2 being just a dream, then why would Peach's moveset be coming right from there though all of that stuff was not real. It still affects the characters as they still have their traits right from that game. Mario and his balanced power, Luigi's high jumps, Toad and his strength, and Peach and her floating.

Koopa troopas and goombas? Toad is much more important than that as the toads and yoshis are the only ones who are actually playable in the games while the goombas and troopas are just minions of bowser who are almost never playable. They don;t hold significance as there is no specific goomba or koopa but Toad is here as a major character of the series (being also part of the Mario big 8).

I'm just stating this to show that Toad is capable and should not be forgotten for the likes of newer characters like Bowser Jr. I believe that either one of these 2 will have a good chance of getting to ssb4 at this point. However adding both would be good seeing as we didn't directly get a mario rep in brawl and one was excluded.

 

[Pieman0920]

If you think Peach's biggest role was in SMB2, then isn't SMB2 actually represented then? If that's the case, then a different game should be refferenced, not the same. Also Peach isn't indistiguishable from other humans, so she isn't like Toad or Yoshi. And since the main Toad that you're trying to promote didn't have a major (possibly not any) role in NSMBWii, and SMB2 has already been covered as you've pointled out, all that leaves is Wario Woods, which in all honesty doesn't really matter that much in the grand scheme of things, since it was just a spin off game that didn't lead to anything.

Koopas and Goombas have been playable in spin off games, and as a whole have had many more roles and are much more recognizable than Toad. Toad's current role, which he has had since the SNES has also been a minion as well. And there is no Mario Big 8, either, and its funny you should even bring that up, since that's all just based around Mario Kart 64, when just a game before, one of the 8 characters was a koopa troopa. If you're going to say that one was generic and non-specific koopa, then the same exact thing can be said of Toad in any of the spin off games as well.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I think I've said many times before how I don't really think Toad would be all that great of a choice, and again stress that the Yoshi in Smash isn't the main Mario series Yoshi, but rather the main Yoshi series Yoshi.

I know you're trying to push the whole "it only counts if it's THE Toad, not ANY Toad" bit, but seriously, no one cares about the distinction.

A random run-of-the-mill Yoshi/Pikachu/Squirtle/whatever has the same powers, personality, and general appearance as any other Yoshi/Pikachu/Squirtle/whatever, and those are the only things anyone cares about. The same is true for Toad.

 

[Arcadenik]

Pieman, you are saying that Toad shouldn't have moves based off NSMBWii because those abilities were only in one game. You conveniently forgot that the Mario characters have some moves that came from only one game.

Mario's Cape - Super Mario World
Mario's Mario Finale - Super Mario RPG (based on Mario's Ultra Flame)
Mario's punch, punch, kick combo - Super Mario 64
Mario's F.L.U.D.D. - Super Mario Sunshine

Peach's floating jump - Super Mario Bros. 2
Peach's Vegetable - Super Mario Bros. 2
Peach's slaps - Super Mario RPG
Peach's frying pan - Super Mario RPG
Peach's Parasol - Super Mario RPG (at the time of Melee, at least)

Bowser's Bowser Bomb (down B) - Super Mario Bros. 3
Bowser's scratches - Super Mario RPG

You also don't want Toad to have made-up moves based on his character traits while conveniently forgetting that some of the Mario characters have made-up moves based on their character traits.

Luigi's Green Missile - exactly how is launching yourself part of Luigi's personality?
Luigi's Negative Zone - according to the trophy description, this move is based on the fact Luigi is always in Mario's shadow

Peach's Toad - since Toads are Peach's bodyguards, she uses Toad to shield herself from attacks (and Toad gets a made-up move where he shoots spores, likely due to the fact that Toad is a mushroom person and mushrooms shoot spores)
Peach's Bomber - how is bumping her butt into an explosion part of her personality? At least they changed the fire explosions into heart explosions in Brawl
Peach's Peach Blossom - how is this part of her personality besides the name?

Bowser's Whirling Fortress (up B) - likely due to the fact he is a turtle
Bowser's Giga Bowser - from Melee, not Mario games

As for comparing Toad to Goomba, Koopa, Shy Guy, etc. There is no comparison. Toads and Yoshis are more important than these generic species. Those generic species serve nothing more than generic enemies while Toads and Yoshis serve to help Mario in his adventures and sometimes Yoshis and Toads are playable in the non-spin-off games. There is a big difference between a generic enemy and a supporting character.

Generic species that have been playable in spin-off games: Toad, Yoshi, Koopa Troopa, Koopa Paratroopa, Dry Bones, Goomba, Paragoomba, Hammer Bro, Magikoopa, Wiggler, Boo, Shy Guy, Fly Guy, Blooper, Monty Mole, Kritter, Birdo, Pianta, Noki

Generic species that have been playable in non-spin-off games: Toad, Yoshi

Edit: Oh, and for Toad to be no longer important in recent games. I think there are small clues to the contrary. There is high possibility that Toad is the Red Toad of the Toad Brigade. If you look into the Super Mario Galaxy intro with the Toad Brigade, you would notice that the Red Toad is wearing a blue vest, suggesting that this is THE Toad.

Retroactively, this means the Red Toad in Super Mario Sunshine is THE Toad. The manual even called the Red Toad "Toad" and described him as "Peach's attendant". We all know Toad is Peach's attendant. So, if the Red Toad is the leader of the Toad Brigade and if THE Toad is also the Red Toad, that makes Toad a very important character in the recent non-spin-off games.

 

[Pieman0920]

Hey, Toise is back. :O

Anyways, for both Yoshi and the pokemon, there's a major difference that seperates them from Toad, though said difference is different between the different types! Or whatever. In the case of Pokemon, as opposed to Mario, the monsters are generic by nature and generally have little to no impact on the story, so what constitutes them getting in is a entirely different subject than a series like Mario. In the case of Yoshi though, which is a lot more important for this whole thing, given that he can be chalked up to being part of the Mario-verse, its the fact that despite being part of a nearly identical race of characters just like Toad, Yoshi had his own series. While the series still promoted the fact that there were a lots of nearly identical yoshis (Or is the plural yoshies?) it still established a main yoshi, and gave the character a lot of publicity, unlike Toad who has fadded more and more into what is now a generic speices. Now that doesn't quite take away all of his chances, but it does bring up the question if things like koopa troopas are valid as well.


And Arcadenik, I said that Toad's ice ball would just be better as a side special, rather than a neutral one, as it isn't really something he's known for. (And as I said before, the neutral special generally seems to be either a character's signature move, or one that generally fits the character as a whole) If Toad was playable, I'd have no beef with him if he had the ice ball in some other special slot. (Okay, maybe the up special but whatever)

And if the red headed toad from the Toad Brigade was Toad, then he'd still keep his blue vest, like the one in that picture, wouldn't you think? Toad's original job was essentially Toadsworth, and these two new toads took over the old Toad's job as being a playable character, so odds are that since Nintendo sort of dug itself into a hole with the original Toad being identical to all other toads, they are trying to stop that by creating new characters that preformed the old Toad's functions.

 

[Shorts]

If you think Peach's biggest role was in SMB2, then isn't SMB2 actually represented then? If that's the case, then a different game should be refferenced, not the same. Also Peach isn't indistiguishable from other humans, so she isn't like Toad or Yoshi. And since the main Toad that you're trying to promote didn't have a major (possibly not any) role in NSMBWii, and SMB2 has already been covered as you've pointled out, all that leaves is Wario Woods, which in all honesty doesn't really matter that much in the grand scheme of things, since it was just a spin off game that didn't lead to anything.

Koopas and Goombas have been playable in spin off games, and as a whole have had many more roles and are much more recognizable than Toad. Toad's current role, which he has had since the SNES has also been a minion as well. And there is no Mario Big 8, either, and its funny you should even bring that up, since that's all just based around Mario Kart 64, when just a game before, one of the 8 characters was a koopa troopa. If you're going to say that one was generic and non-specific koopa, then the same exact thing can be said of Toad in any of the spin off games as well.

actually, peach's biggest role is in spp (super princess peach!)

 

[Mowrt620]

(I'm going to try to follow up with a decently long paragraph :3)

Just throwing it out there...Maybe Toads FS could be in relation to his Toad-UFO thing from Mario Galaxy. I'm still not all for him, but Arkendik has spurred up my interest for Toad, but still....I do see your point tho Arkendik. It would feel a little strange to give Toad some personality-based moves tho, considering he's Toad, and isn't really that advanced in his persona. I also would dislike for his moves to be solely sports-spinoff based. That's also why I don't want Daisy in (Because she has even LESS moveset possibility than Toad, and I can't see her NOT being a clone).

If I had to slim things down for a new Mario rep, they'd be

1.Bowser Jr. (I don't really think he'd be a clone of Bowser. He's pretty distinct, because he's got a mask, he's generally smaller, and he has a paintbrush as a weapon. Not to mention the possibility of him being able to change into shadow Mario...)
2. Baby Mario and Baby Luigi (I'd rather put them into the Yoshi series, because it wouldn't hurt for Yoshi to have another rep. And it beats the Kamek. Also, why not have another due pair?)
3. Waluigi (Although, I'd rather see him with the Wario series. I know he's not exactly Wario-ware, but still, he's Warios cohort and all....)
4. Geno (He still seems pretty cool to me...XD)
5. Toad (Yeah, it's been discussed)

And don't kill me for choosing Geno above Toad! XD

 

[Shorts]

no.... no, no, no NO NO NO NO! NOOOOO!!
no, waluigi :l

i would rather see BIRDO in brawl! waluigi hasnt even been in a main series game. at least daisy has been in one. he shouldnt be in ssb, until at least ssb6. theres seven characters that are ahead of him!

1. bowser jr.
2. paper mario
3. baby bros.
4. toad
5. kamek
6. daisy
7. fawful

thats seven, all more worthy than waluigi!

i would even prefer the doc! and i hate dr. mario >.>

 

[Arcadenik]

Toad and Yoshi have so many things in common except in one area. Toad is a species. Yoshi is a species. There is a Toad named Toad. There is a Yoshi named Yoshi. Toads come in many colors. Yoshis come in many colors. Toads have been playable in non-spin-off games. Yoshis have been playable in non-spin-off games. Toads serve as supporting characters (they give stars and items). Yoshis serve as supporting characters (they give rides). Toad doesn't have a game series. Yoshi have a game series.

Really, whether Toad is wearing the red or blue vest is irrelevant. All that matters is that Toad(s) still have a prominent presence in the non-spin-off storylines. Goombas, Koopas, Shy Guys, Boos, etc. are just there to serve as obstacles while Toads and Yoshis are around to give Mario a supporting hand.

It is pretty much like this: Yoshi > Toad > Goomba, Koopa, Shy Guy, Boo, etc.

Whether you accept it or not, Pieman, Toad is one of the iconic faces of the Mario games. He is one of the well-known and iconic mascots in Mario games, Nintendo in general, and even video games in general. Bowser Jr., not so much.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I used to support Toad back in 2007 but, as time has passed, I've come to the realization that the character really isn't that interesting and it would be a stretch to make him a character that people would actually want to play as in Smash Bros.

 

[Arcadenik]

Well, sorry if Toad is not as interesting as Geno with his flashy arm cannons and finger shots. Look, it is not a stretch to make Toad a playable character (and an interesting one at that) in Smash when you got a lot of material to draw from. Super Mario Bros. 2 (Vegetables, superhuman strength), Wario's Woods (walking on walls, bombs), New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Iceballs, Propeller Mushrooms), and the Mario Kart series (agility, Golden Mushrooms). But you are right, people don't want to play as Toad. They want a Bowser rip-off (Bowser Jr.) and a Mario rip-off (Paper Mario, Dr. Mario, Shadow Mario) and an obscure one-time Mario character who is not even the mascot of Square Enix (Geno) and a couple of spin-off characters who are rip-offs of Luigi, Wario, and Peach (Waluigi, Daisy).

 

[Propeller Toad]

I used to support Toad back in 2007 but, as time has passed, I've come to the realization that the character really isn't that interesting and it would be a stretch to make him a character that people would actually want to play as in Smash Bros.

I don't see him as a stretch..even being a Toad fan. Toad is very popular and he would bring a unique character into the game as there is no way he can become a clone and will have unique stats (strong physical attacks and speedy). I know it might not count, but tons of people using Toad in the mario spinnofs including mario kart and I doubt that people will complain if he was included in smash. Characters like jr are ok but just seem too much clone material. Sure jr appeared several times in the games, but he never actually showed much moves. Even in sunshine, people say his paintbrush but he never actually used it for fighting but instead for graffiti (though I'm not saying that it can become a weapon if he does make it in) and really jr only physcially attacks by running into you or hiding in his shell (which bowser already has for whirling fortress). Otherwise, he just fires bullet bills in the background... However he still has chances but Toad should not be stated to having no one to play him as I'm sure theres many that want him to be in.

 

[Shorts]

i think that in the end, whether your a toad, bowser jr. or geno supporter whichever one gets in ssb4 is well deserving.
toad has the years of aiding the main characters along their quest.
bowser jr., with him becoming a main villain and all.
and geno, with his "razzle dazzle" looks, moves and charm, its no wonder he has a huge fanbase.

and soo long as waluigi and birdo dont make it in instead of one of those three, im happy

haha, yesh i said razzle dazzle, but its okay, im gay.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

since the third-party discussion has stopped when it was going somewhere interesting...

Toad/mario stuff:

Ok, can we stop throwing moveset stuff around? Because fact of the matter is, while some of you may not like TL, he got in anyways for his own merits of the character. Now then...

Wow @ Generic stuff. Pie; This is just like the Ridley debate arc brought up earlier with "omg It's in-series scaling it'd look to weird" yeah, no.

You guys are seriously using Peach? Here's the thing; Toad doesn't hold near as much of a role as Peach (Your princess is in another Castle!) As Peach is pretty much the main goal/what's surrounding the plot in the first place. So far, all of the Mario choices have been characters who were very solid supporting characters. Now before someone screams "WARIO/DK/YOSHI" - They had there subseries. Toad/Bowser Jr don't.

If Mario is getting another character, it honestly comes down to those two because they're already debateable on fitting in the critera of mario characters so far; What the heck makes you think Waluigi/Baby Bros (...As Mario Characters, at least)/Daisy/Mario RPG Character/etc fit in there at all. If we were to scream out Mario RPG, I think the main problem with that comes down from the fact that there's nobody to represent all 7 games

And If we're judging this off of now and not "What if's", then no, Toad doesn't really deserve to be in. He's held a role in three games, which were;

1.Telling that the princess is in another castle < Super Mario Bros (Not much to really count)
2.Optional Playable Character in a rushed game < Super Mario Bros 2
3.Optional Playable Character in a not-so rushed game < New Super Mario Bros Wii

Now, If he was still at least in optional playable character and had more prominent appearences, especially in the main titles? Then yes. As it seems, he's basically similar to Geno except without legal rights, a crudload of appearences, and in a recent game.

But really, he does have some nice catches above Bowser Jr. For starters, he isn't a hated/unoriginal character, which not that Sakurai would negative Bowser Jr out for that, and Toad has had a long term history

Still, no point in much of these lists, because chances are the newcomer list won't be gigantic. Sure, It may be nice, but it probably won't fit in 2 New Mario Characters. Brawl filled in a lot yet it didn't fill in a new mario character. Even one for my reasoning before mentioned is debateable; Think to the past. Why didn't he just add one in brawl? Looking at the series may get us to a lot of places, but looking at the characters themselves does more.

There you go. There's your gigantic long post for all of you toad/not so toad lovers to enjoy giving a wall of text on.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@TreKoops

I don't feel Peach has the necessary role to the series that you are presenting her with. Toads have been the seers by which Mario finds the princess. She has very little active role outside the few games she playable, not counting spin-offs. In the main series, Toads and Peach are pretty even in relevance.

If the mario gaes had been written with someone else in Toad's place telling Mario about the Princess, it wouldn't have been noiced. If you were simply going to Bowser's castle to stop Bowser's tyrany and evil, that also would have been acceptable.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

@TreKoops

I don't feel Peach has the necessary role to the series that you are presenting her with. Toads have been the seers by which Mario finds the princess. She has very little active role outside the few games she playable, not counting spin-offs. In the main series, Toads and Peach are pretty even in relevance.

If the mario gaes had been written with someone else in Toad's place telling Mario about the Princess, it wouldn't have been noiced. If you were simply going to Bowser's castle to stop Bowser's tyrany and evil, that also would have been acceptable.

But we're not discussing "If the" things; If Bowser was Wart instead, potentially nothing could have been changed asides from Wart being in instead of Bowser. Mario players will notice Peach as an important figure. Bowser Jr and Toad? Less so.

The thing is, Toad is a seer in...Super Mario Bros? That's about it. Peach on the other hand is the main plot focus. Why is Mario beating up Bowser numerous times? Mainly her; Sometimes there's some evil plan attached to it or something of the sorts but It's mainly that. She just happens to be alive unlike a lot of the other focuses I.E. "Get all the sound stones" or "Win the F-Zero Grand Prix" And so on.

Granted I made the comparison look like Toad didn't compare when by technical rule, he does, which is why him and Bowser Jr are looking to be the only real plausible new Mario characters.

 

[Arcadenik]

If Mario is getting another character, it honestly comes down to those two because they're already debateable on fitting in the critera of mario characters so far; What the heck makes you think Waluigi/Baby Bros (...As Mario Characters, at least)/Daisy/Mario RPG Character/etc fit in there at all. If we were to scream out Mario RPG, I think the main problem with that comes down from the fact that there's nobody to represent all 7 games

Still, no point in much of these lists, because chances are the newcomer list won't be gigantic. Sure, It may be nice, but it probably won't fit in 2 New Mario Characters. Brawl filled in a lot yet it didn't fill in a new mario character. Even one for my reasoning before mentioned is debateable; Think to the past. Why didn't he just add one in brawl? Looking at the series may get us to a lot of places, but looking at the characters themselves does more.

@ first paragraph

We already have three characters to represent all 7 RPG games. Mario, Peach, and Bowser. Luigi wasn't important in Super Mario RPG and the first two Paper Mario games but those three were important in all 7 RPG games.

@ second paragraph

We technically got a new Mario character in Wario if you follow the Melee poll. Bowser and Peach were added in Melee and they had 169 votes (Bowser) and 66 votes (Peach). Wario had 65 votes so that's why Peach got in before Wario by one vote. Meanwhile, Toad had 27 votes so he is next in the line to get into Smash, at least according to the Melee poll.

Edit to add a reply to the above post.

Replace the Mushroom Kingdom with Sarasaland. Replace Bowser with Tatanga. Replace Peach with Daisy. You end up with Super Mario Land - same plot, different characters. We don't need Bowser and Peach to drive the story but they still are around. Why is that? Could it be because they are more popular than Tatanga and Daisy so Daisy is pretty much reduced to a filler character in spin-off games. Toad is not needed to drive the story but he is still around, even with Toadsworth and the Toad Brigade running around. Could it be because he is still popular, so popular he still appear in main games and not exclusively in spin-off games like Daisy have?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

@ first paragraph

We already have three characters to represent all 7 RPG games. Mario, Peach, and Bowser. Luigi wasn't important in Super Mario RPG and the first two Paper Mario games but those three were important in all 7 RPG games.

That pretty much as well; But If people mean someone exclusive to it, like say Geno or Paper Mario, as a huge fan of Mario RPG's, I say nobody exclusive should be put in from that and we should simply have a stage with a lot of music.

...No really you're going to need a lot of music when it comes to Mario RPG's.

We technically got a new Mario character in Wario if you follow the Melee poll. Bowser and Peach were added in Melee and they had 169 votes (Bowser) and 66 votes (Peach). Wario had 65 votes so that's why Peach got in before Wario by one vote. Meanwhile, Toad had 27 votes so he is next in the line to get into Smash, at least according to the Melee poll.

"According to the Melee Poll" Which you realize is like supporting Geno due to the brawl poll pretty much.

And Wario was added for his own merits. Sure, he's a Mario character by technical rule, but you think he was added for the merits of the spin-off's he's been in more, or all those Wario Land and Ware titles? If they were basing it off of his Mushroom Kingdom merits guess what icon he'd be under.

 

[Arcadenik]

Well, Sakurai sure as hell didn't count Wario Land. Wario was pretty much added due to factors like:

- 65 votes on the Melee poll (next in the line after Bowser and Peach)
- Wario got a makeover in WarioWare games (making him look "new and recent")
- WarioWare getting more attention than Wario Land (it never did get attention) in Mario spin-off games

Oh, and he got a moveset based on his WarioWare personality, not his Wario Land moves (except the side smash move). Wario may get his own icon but he was still treated as a Mario villain in the Adventure Mode and we all know that is something you only see in Super Mario Land 2 and the spin-off games. Yoshi may have his own icon but even Yoshi didn't get a role in the Adventure Mode other than being Link's sidekick (he is always Mario's sidekick) and Mario's ride (see: Super Mario World, Super Mario Sunshine, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and Super Mario Galaxy 2). Those icons mean nothing other than to showcase how diverse the roster is for having characters from different Nintendo franchises. The more icons, the more diverse the roster looks! Why do you think people want to give Paper Mario and Geno their own icons or give Waluigi Wario's icon? They are only to make it look like the roster have more franchises and give existing franchises more characters.

We still don't know the official results of the Brawl poll. All we know is that Geno was mentioned five times. It could go like this: "Who the hell is Geno?" "What game is Geno from?" "Oh, Geno is a Mario character?" "What? So Geno is owned by Square Enix?" "Geno looks interesting but he isn't getitng in." Here is your five mentions.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

stuff

First off, you're arguing over Wario Land vs Wario Ware in importance; While he did give Ware more of a mention fact of the matter is that Wario got in for his own merits. Sure; His spin-off appearances helped his personality and character, but it didn't make him a godsend. He just happens to be linked to the Mario series more than every other character, not some magical "ROSTER DIVERSITY"

Which really, with this example I was showing anyone who even thinks two newcomers is that likely wrong. I'm not saying we won't get Bowser Jr or Toad, but before brawl remember almost everyone said "We HAVE To get a new Mario Character!" - Surprise surprise; We didn't.

Second off, the Geno thing was just an example - I remember someone here (Hi FMOI) Having a saved archive of all the mentions being good comments actually. You're no longer viewing the merits of him and Bowser Jr in comparison along with him to the mario franchise and instead just saying "HEY LOOK! VOTES!" - When it comes to character requests, the only one that seemed to even get in from that is Sonic.

so stop mentioning "wow he has 20 votes" or "look, more interesting moveset!"; That doesn't just go to you, that goes to everyone. What in the universe happened to looking at importance?

 

[Arcadenik]

There is a difference between an important character and a mascot character. Smash is not about playing as your favorite Nintendo's important characters. Smash is about playing as your favorite Nintendo's mascots. Mascots who are usually the faces of their franchises and protagonists of their games. Even Nintendo doesn't advertise Smash as "play as Nintendo's important characters in 4-player action!", they always say something like "play as your favorite Nintendo All-Stars in 4-player action!"

It is the same thing with Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Tatsunoko vs. Capcom, and other crossover fighting games. They always advertise mascots, not important characters. Mascots are usually important characters. Important characters are not usually mascots.

Mario: mascot and full-time protagonist of the Mario games
Luigi: full-time mascot and full-time protagonist of the Mario games
Peach: full-time mascot and part-time protagonist of the Mario games
Bowser: full-time mascot, full-time antagonist, and part-time protagonist of the Mario games

Donkey Kong: full-time mascot and full-time protagonist of the Donkey Kong games, also part-time mascot and part-time antagonist of the Mario games
Diddy Kong: full-time mascot and full-time protagonist of the Donkey Kong games, also part-time mascot of the Mario games
Yoshi: full-time mascot and full-time protagonist of the Yoshi games, also part-time mascot and part-time protagonist of the Mario games
Wario: full-time mascot and full-time protagonist of the Wario games, also part-time mascot and part-time antagonist of the Mario games

Link: mascot and protagonist of the Zelda series
Zelda: mascot and part-time protagonist of the Zelda series
Sheik: mascot only for Ocarina of Time, not even important to the whole Zelda series but that one game
Ganondorf: mascot and part-time antagonist of the Zelda series
Toon Link: mascot and protagonist of the Zelda series

Samus: mascot and protagonist of the Metroid series
Zero Suit Samus: mascot and part-time protagonist of the Metroid series
Pit: mascot and protagonist of the Kid Icarus series
Ice Climbers: mascots and protagonists of Ice Climber (1 game)
R.O.B.: mascot of the NES in general (almost no one cares about Gyromite and Stack-Up)

Kirby: mascot and protagonist of the Kirby series
Meta Knight: mascot, part-time protagonist, and part-time antagonist of the Kirby series
King Dedede: mascot, part-time protagonist, and part-time antagonist of the Kirby series
Olimar: mascot and protagonist of the Pikmin series

Fox: mascot and protagonist of the Star Fox series
Falco: mascot and protagonist of the Star Fox series
Wolf: mascot and antagonist of the Star Fox series
Captain Falcon: mascot and protagonist of the F-Zero series

Pikachu: mascot and part-time protagonist of the Pokemon series
Pokemon Trainer: mascot and full-time protagonist of the Pokemon series
Lucario: mascot for Diamond/Pearl (I am sure the movie had more influence), not important to the whole Pokemon series except in sales
Jigglypuff: mascot for Red/Blue???, not important to the whole Pokemon series except in anime 10 years ago

Marth: mascot of the Fire Emblem series and part-time protagonist of Fire Emblem 1, 3, and 11
Ike: mascot and part-time protagonist of Fire Emblem 9 and 10
Ness: mascot and part-time protagonist of Mother 1 and 2 (there's hardly any difference between Ninten and Ness besides their names)
Lucas: mascot and part-time protagonist of Mother 3

Mr. Game & Watch: mascot and protagonist of the Game & Watch series
Snake: mascot and protagonist of the Metal Gear games (third party)
Sonic: mascot and protagonist of the Sonic games (third party)

Toad is a full-time mascot and a part-time protagonist of the Mario series. That is more than enough to consider him a spot.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Hey, Toise is back. :O

Anyways, for both Yoshi and the pokemon, there's a major difference that seperates them from Toad, though said difference is different between the different types! Or whatever. In the case of Pokemon, as opposed to Mario, the monsters are generic by nature and generally have little to no impact on the story, so what constitutes them getting in is a entirely different subject than a series like Mario. In the case of Yoshi though, which is a lot more important for this whole thing, given that he can be chalked up to being part of the Mario-verse, its the fact that despite being part of a nearly identical race of characters just like Toad, Yoshi had his own series. While the series still promoted the fact that there were a lots of nearly identical yoshis (Or is the plural yoshies?) it still established a main yoshi, and gave the character a lot of publicity, unlike Toad who has fadded more and more into what is now a generic speices. Now that doesn't quite take away all of his chances, but it does bring up the question if things like koopa troopas are valid as well.

I've still been lurking, just have much less time to post and not quite as much interest lately. I've got time right now so I'm trying to make the most of it.


You play as a bunch of random Yoshis in all three major Yoshi games. Where's the head Yoshi in his own series? Oh cool, the post-credits of DS as a baby. Nice publicity.

What about Mario games? SMW has The Yoshi (green only) and SM64 has him as a cameo, but Sunshine? NSMBWii? Galaxy 2 (from the looks of it)? Random Yoshis.

So where does The Yoshi keep popping up? The same kind of spinoffs where The Toad appears. Mario Kart, Mario Party, sports games, RPGs, whatnot. Is that a problem? No, not really, because no one cares which Yoshi they get aside from color.

Any random Yoshi is just as good as The Yoshi. The powers are the same (mostly), they're still happy-go-lucky, and they're still a cute dinosaur with a saddle and boots. As far as I can tell the only major difference between The Yoshi and a random Yoshi is... The Yoshi can speak in dialogue bubbles. Neat.


Now, I'm not trying to say Toad's a shoe-in or something. Just emphasizing the fact that nobody cares if it's The Toad or a random Toad, they're both interchangable. Toadsworth or Toadette, now that's a distinction that matters. Everyone else? Same guy as far as the fans and Nintendo themselves are concerned.



@Arcadenik: The only playable mascots in Smash are Mario, Pikachu, and Sonic. You should probably get a dictionary.

 

[DekuBoy]

Mascots don't need to be famous. Arcardenik is pointing out the characters roles in their series.

If we had an all famous roster it would probably have Master Chief and Lara Croft in. Heh. I kinda like the idea...

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

He's calling every single character in Smash Bros. a mascot. That's not what the word means.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Toad is a full-time mascot and a part-time protagonist of the Mario series. That is more than enough to consider him a spot.

I never said he couldn't be considered. You need to go back and skim through my posts.

I said he wasn't a shoe-in or extremely likely, same goes to Bowser Jr. If you've noticed I'm just saying to not get a high expectations of them due to moveset/polls/the series they hail from.

I even said myself "Toad and Bowser Jr are by far more considerable than all the other random mario characters" Which I have no clue why people are bringing up ideas like Daisy and Birdo.

And:

He's calling every single character in Smash Bros. a mascot. That's not what the word means.

Bingo.

...Except I'd consider Snake partly a mascot.

 

[Shorts]

Mascots don't need to be famous. Arcardenik is pointing out the characters roles in their series.

If we had an all famous roster it would probably have Master Chief and Lara Croft in. Heh. I kinda like the idea...

okay, let me just point out that in cvs.t alex got in. guess how many non-spin 0ff games hes been in? ONE! soo its not just about importance, yet clearly its not just about mascots.

there is also two other factors that play into this, playability and fanbase. though some of you disagree w/ the fanbase having anything to do with who got in, i promise you, every character that got in, minus r.o.b., had a huge fanbase. i was in the thick of all the brawl hype on nsider so i know! r.o.b. got in as a wtf character, like mr. game and watch.
in the end, for the toad vs bowser jr. debate this is how i see it:
imortance: bowser jr. hes only been around for like a third of the time as toad and hes ALWAYS been a main villian.
mascot: toad, duhh
playability: bowser jr. sorry, he has multiple non clone things he could do. toad, would have either a spin-off moveset, a nsmbwii moveset, or a mario-esk clone move set.
fanbase: bowser jr. has more fans in general, not just on this board but out there, in the real world.

bj: three
toad: one

done, now please, new subject!

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Koops: I mean official mascots:

Mario is the mascot for Nintendo
Pikachu is the mascot for the Pokemon Company
Sonic is the mascot for Sega (used to be Alex Kidd)
Mega Man is the mascot for Capcom (used to be Captain Commando)
Pac-Man is the mascot for Namco
Chocobo and Slime are the dual mascots for Square-Enix

Konami doesn't have one.

Not talking about a series mascot (like Captain Falcon) or iconic game characters in general (DK, Cloud, Snake, etc.). At any rate, Arcadenik's use of the word is very inaccurate.

 

[Arcadenik]

Toise, you consider Mario, Pikachu, and Sonic as the only mascots? Maybe because Mario and Pikachu are the biggest mascots Nintendo have and Sonic is Sega's mascot. But what I am talking about are the faces of the individual franchises. Samus is the face of Metroid series, right? Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf (the Triforce trio, this includes Toon Link because he is still Link) are the faces of the Zelda series, right? Ness is the face of Mother 1 and 2 while Lucas is the face of Mother 3, right?

Oh, and Alex may have only one game but he was still the main protagonist in Street Fighter 3. His face even graced the promotional flyer for Street Fighter 3 even though Ryu and Ken were still in the game. That makes Alex the mascot of Street Fighter 3. If you looked at the roster, you would see that there is one character from each game. Ryu from Street Fighter 1. Chun-Li from Street Fighter 2 (she is the First Lady of Fighting Games). Alex from Street Fighter 3. In the same respect, you have MegaMan Volnutt from Mega Man Legends series, Zero from Mega Man X series (since we already have a playable Mega Man), and Roll from classic Mega Man series (since we already have a playable Mega Man and a playable Proto Man (Zero looks a lot like an updated Proto Man)).

Smash is not only about important characters. It is about playing as Nintendo's mascots from several different franchises. Mascots are the faces of the games/franchises. Smash would be boring if it had nothing but Mario, Pokemon, and Sonic characters.

 

[Pieman0920]

You play as a bunch of random Yoshis in all three major Yoshi games. Where's the head Yoshi in his own series? Oh cool, the post-credits of DS as a baby. Nice publicity.

The thing is that there are two major Yoshis, one who is the main green Yoshi of the Yoshi's Island games, and the other is the main Yoshi of the SMB games. The main Yoshi's role is shared with a lot of other yoshis, but he's the one who is essentially the one who first gets baby Mario, the one who has the final fight in the game, and the one who's in the first/special levels in YI. While either could technically be the yoshi used in Smash, odds are its the YI one, given that Smash's Yoshi is part of the Yoshi series rather than the Mario one. Also there's the fact that Yoshi and their stages of life (eggs, baby form, and adult form) are fairly screwy anyways.

Most of the rest of this post here

Again, that hinges on the idea that its the main Yoshi from SMB, rather than the main Yoshi from YI, which I don't think is the case. =/

Now, I'm not trying to say Toad's a shoe-in or something. Just emphasizing the fact that nobody cares if it's The Toad or a random Toad, they're both interchangable. Toadsworth or Toadette, now that's a distinction that matters. Everyone else? Same guy as far as the fans and Nintendo themselves are concerned.

The mere existance of Toadsworth (as well as the blue and yellow toads) seem to indicate though that Nintendo is giving Toad's old roles to characters that can be distinguished from others. Thus I feel its unlikely that Nintendo would try to bring that main Toad back into focus. (Also, there's the fact that Toad itself is a fairly bland and non-combative guy, unlike Yoshi, but that more of an opinion)


As far as this mascot business goes though, Toise is right that a good deal of characters that people think of as mascots really aren't. (Like Link for instance)

EDIT: Oh yeah, and while Wario had his own series in Brawl, he does seem to be a partial Mario character of sorts. (He was lumped with them in the select screen, and got his overalls) As far as WL vs WW is concerend though, neither really stands above the other in the various Mario spin off games, since neither really make any type of impact. You don't see Captain Syrup playing baseball with Mario & pals, but you also don't see Mona doing it either. (And quite frankly, its a bit odd, when you see things like Mario Kart digging as deep as Funky Kong and Baby Daisy) In regards to its representation in Smash though, its quite clear that WW was favored in Brawl, but that doesn't really need to carry on to the next Smash game, especially with Shake It. Personally, I think its best if each side of Wario got its own stages. (And possibly one more character, though most people don't agree with that)

 

[Arcadenik]

Nintendo always advertises Smash by saying something like "play with your favorite characters in Nintendo All-Stars fighting game!". They don't advertise the characters as "Nintendo's important characters", but rather "Nintendo All-Stars". Characters chosen to best represent their franchises. And who else better to do that than the faces of the franchises/games?

 

[Shorts]

just because a character is a mascot doesnt mean its one of the top 5 most important characters. ex: toad. everyone knows toads face. but theres a reason hes not in anyone of the three ssb games. mascot does not trump a important character. and so long as toad stays a UNimportant character, he'll get passed up by others.
like, bowser jr.