[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[DekuBoy]

Toad? Unimportant? Surely you jest. He is far more well known and liked than Bowser Jr. Bowser Jr is a good candidate, but Toad represents a whole lot more in my opinion.


Also, 2010 pages. What an occasion.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Pieman: I know you're still hung up on the distinction between the singular characters and the species, but really, look around. How many people here have cared about "The ___" and "a ___" stuff? How many people in other forums? How about the people who don't play Mario games as much?

People like you and me can nerd over which instance of a character is which, but it doesn't change the fact that most people don't care. If it walks like a Toad and talks like a Toad, it's a Toad.

Again, I have to stress the fact that I'm not arguing in favor of a playable Toad or trying to imply that the Toads are more important than you give them credit. I'm merely pointing out that any appearance of a Toad that isn't Toadsworth or Toadette is technically the same thing. Blue Toad is Yellow Toad is regular Toad.



@Arcadenik: Why do you always misinterpret everything?

A mascot is a character that officially represents something or someone. Mario officially represents Nintendo. Sonic officially represents Sega.

DK, Link, Samus, and everyone else? Video game icons definitely, but not mascots. And that's fine. It's perfectly fine for a character to not be a mascot. Smash is almost entirely comprised of characters that aren't mascots (even Snake), nobody's saying you have to be one to get in.

And for the record, characters don't have to be the faces of their series to get in either. The face of a series is the most prominent character: Mario, Link, Samus, Captain Falcon, Marth, Ness, and so on. Zelda isn't a face. Bowser isn't a face. Falco isn't a face. They can still be in the game though, they're important enough.

 

[Shorts]

Toad? Unimportant? Surely you jest. He is far more well known and liked than Bowser Jr. Bowser Jr is a good candidate, but Toad represents a whole lot more in my opinion.


Also, 2010 pages. What an occasion.

all im saying is when has a toad ever played a significant role that enhancss the games play, or story.
the biggest break a toad has gotten is in nsmbwii, and even then you can only choose him if youre playing w/ a friend. he's playable yes, but hes only put in for the multi player aspect. he in no way moves the games story along. mario is the character your forced to be, its more his game then luigis and the toads.

at least you HAVE to fight bowser the koopalings and bowser jr. at least you have to save peach. the only time you have to be toad is if your playing w/ 3 ppl.

so you see what i mean by unimportant? i like toad, i love being the blue one, but hes not that important.
luigi and yoshi arent even that important in nsmbwii, that game was not in anyway toads ticket to smash.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

But we're not discussing "If the" things; If Bowser was Wart instead, potentially nothing could have been changed asides from Wart being in instead of Bowser. Mario players will notice Peach as an important figure. Bowser Jr and Toad? Less so.
.

This wasn;t a what if Toad was more important. This was proving the point that Peach isn' as important as everyone makes her out to be.

 

[Pieman0920]

@ Shortie

Toad's well known and recognizable, but he's not a mascot.

@Pieman: I know you're still hung up on the distinction between the singular characters and the species, but really, look around. How many people here have cared about "The ___" and "a ___" stuff? How many people in other forums? How about the people who don't play Mario games as much?

People like you and me can nerd over which instance of a character is which, but it doesn't change the fact that most people don't care. If it walks like a Toad and talks like a Toad, it's a Toad.

Again, I have to stress the fact that I'm not arguing in favor of a playable Toad or trying to imply that the Toads are more important than you give them credit. I'm merely pointing out that any appearance of a Toad that isn't Toadsworth or Toadette is technically the same thing. Blue Toad is Yellow Toad is regular Toad.

Its not really a matter of others being hung up around it, since I've never said Toad was unknown, or that Toad doesn't have people who want him. I just don't see Toad as someone who quite qualifies, due to his nature. If you are going to be lax about a character who is essentially representing a race though, then you have to consider the fact that this opens up the door for several other characters of simmilar nature who, even though they don't have as strong a rallying point, are still just as valid given their history.

EDIT: Oh, and on the whole Toad is in general less important than Bowser Jr. Now you may want to argue that Toad may be more recognizable, but that's a different subject.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Its not really a matter of others being hung up around it, since I've never said Toad was unknown, or that Toad doesn't have people who want him. I just don't see Toad as someone who quite qualifies, due to his nature.

I'm not talking about whether he should be playable or not though, just the fact that any appearance of the species is equivalent to an appearance of the guy. And vice-versa.

If you are going to be lax about a character who is essentially representing a race though, then you have to consider the fact that this opens up the door for several other characters of simmilar nature who, even though they don't have as strong a rallying point, are still just as valid given their history.

1. We already have "species" characters in Smash anyways. That door's been open since 64. I'm rather curious as to which "characters of similar nature" you're referring to, as if the lack of this nonexistent rule would suddenly lead to more playable candidates.

2. I don't support Toad. He's (they're) not important enough compared to the core four. For the record, I don't think Junior or any of the other Mario characters are good enough either, though I do think Toad and/or Junior are possible.

 

[Arcadenik]

Hmm... I just thought of something. If Toad is not important in the non-spin-off games he is playable in because he is optional. Then what about Luigi?

You don't have to play as Luigi in the following games before the original Smash game:

Mario Bros.
Super Mario Bros.
Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels
Super Mario Bros. 2
Super Mario Bros. 3
Super Mario World

Mario is always playable no matter what. Luigi is always playable only when the second player is available. As for both versions of SMB2, the games may be single player but all the playable characters are optional.

Luigi isn't even important in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. He doesn't even make an appearance until the end credits. Even Toad played a major role as a supporting character in that game.

So, why was he added in the original Smash in the first place if he wasn't even important in the main games and primarily appeared in spin-off games at that time? Luigi, an unimportant character at the time, got in Smash before two important characters, Bowser and Peach. My opinion is that despite the fact Luigi wasn't important in the Mario games at the time, he was still one of the faces of the Mario series and that he was always the second player's character. That was enough reason to add Luigi.

In truth, Luigi actually became important only after Luigi's Mansion came out (which was at the time Melee came out). After that, he had major roles in all three Mario & Luigi games and Super Paper Mario. He is still an optional character in both New Super Mario Bros. games and Super Mario Galaxy.

No wonder he is always an unlockable character. Unlockable characters are often the less-important characters (Luigi, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, Falco, Lucario, R.O.B., Wolf) and obscure important characters (Captain Falcon, Marth, Ness, Toon Link, Mr. Game & Watch) and third party characters (Snake, Sonic).

My point is... even if Toad isn't important in the Mario games, he is still one of the faces of the Mario series and that should be enough reason to add him. He could even be an unlockable character just like Luigi.

In my opinion, maybe Sakurai doesn't care about categories like females, villains, generic, Pokemon gens, sword/magic users, importance, etc. as much as you guys do. The only things Sakurai care about is whether they are popular or not, whether they make fans happy or not, whether they could be physically capable to fight or not, whether they should or should not fight, whether they could work as practical fighters or not, whether they are video game characters or not (this one applies to third party characters).

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Because Luigi, Like Falco (even more so) is a side protaginist - Why he got in over Peach and Bowser? Technical issues or something like that. We'll never know until someone is able to ask the man and gets that question, so until then, annoying theories!

You realize we're just saying that we don't feel Toad is important enough but still a possible and plausible suggestion, yet on the other hand you do because of your clear love for toad, and all you're doing is over complicating it with wall of texts, right? =/

 

[Arcadenik]

No, you just don't want Toad to be playable in Smash at all. Just admit it, you want Bowser Jr. to be playable even though you know he is more likely going to be a clone, given Sakurai's track record with clones.

Seriously, just exactly how much more important does a character have to be in order to be playable in Smash?

 

[Shorts]

No, you just don't want Toad to be playable in Smash at all. Just admit it, you want Bowser Jr. to be playable even though you know he is more likely going to be a clone, given Sakurai's track record with clones.

Seriously, just exactly how much more important does a character have to be in order to be playable in Smash?

no one here hates toad, first of all. we just all generally agree some characters are going to get in over him. end of story.

we could sit here and argue about toad ANOTHER week or we can move on to a different subject.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

No, you just don't want Toad to be playable in Smash at all. Just admit it, you want Bowser Jr. to be playable even though you know he is more likely going to be a clone, given Sakurai's track record with clones.

Uh when did I say I wouldn't want him in Smash? I'm not even arguing completely against him If you haven't noticed. I told pie along with you guys to pipe down about being generic - The real thing is, there's only a few characters I would "Hate" To see in Smash. I have yet to date to truly hate a Character on the roster. The closest thing is Dr.Mario, but I still hate the fact that he didn't even get an alt-costume. Oh well, that's that, and this has turned into rambling.

Actually no, not really. I've started to like the idea of Toad ever since your moveset. In fact, I felt less support from me with Bowser Jr ever since the entire point I brought up on "Hey, maybe we WON'T Get a mario newcomer" which some people cared for but the topic shifted. I don't really care If Bowser Jr turns into a clone as long as he's similar to more of a luigified/lucasfied style. I'd still have fun with the character.

Also I think Bowser Jr's voice is more annoying than Toad even in NSMBWii.

There, happy? Bad assumptions are bad.

Seriously, just exactly how much more important does a character have to be in order to be playable in Smash?

in a run of the mill of my opinion with supporting characters;

1)Should to be important on his series
2)Should be a character efficient to the plot/s - This is why I mentioned SMB A bit as well.
3)Should be around as important compared to the characters already in compared to his series.
4)Compare to characters not in from his series.
5)Reoccuring to the plot/s/game/s/etc as a vital role

it isn't that hard. If we look at Toad or Bowser Jr for that matter:
-Point 1 fits them. Point 4 fits them
-Points 2 and 3 fit them but debate worthy/less so.
-Point 5 Toad has over Bowser Jr but Toad's role goes up and down while Bowser Jr's stays in a similar place.

For now, I'd say I'm indifferent on the two. They'd be cool If they were in? Sure. Could be very fun to play as. Do I really think they're getting in? With what we have right now not quite, but remember I'm a pesstimistic when it comes to characters chances.

edit: and If there's anything in particular about my whole stuff about big series, It's because for expansion, I'd rather see some of nintendo's smaller franchises get some love because with those, people will beg for the next hottest thing because "the series is big". Mainly partial to the idea of having the roster with more third-parties and new franchises.

That and I feel they have all there important characters already. (Mario less so than Zelda)

 

[Shorts]

i wish they would have thrown wolf link in brawl. im pretty sure its too late now :/ he probably wont be coming back into the loz scene for a while, if not ever.

i dont see a character that attacks and moves primarily on all fours ever getting into brawl, which sucks because if anyone, besides notch ear pichu, should rep hgss it should be suicune!

i like her back story from pkmn 4 ever much more than entei's.

besides that, ssb is lacking a feminine touch. and suicune has the right amount of mysteriosness and feminism to bring something intersting to smash.

she could use moves like:
agility: sorta like fox's move.
water pulse: a slower moving projectile thats bigger and fades slowly.
bounce: she quickly leaps into the air, like marths up b move, and comes down.
aqua jet: blasts across the stadium.

she would be medium weight, and realativly fast.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Toad? Unimportant? Surely you jest. He is far more well known and liked than Bowser Jr. Bowser Jr is a good candidate, but Toad represents a whole lot more in my opinion.


Also, 2010 pages. What an occasion.

Well known =/= important. He's Nintendo's second most reoccuring character but he's more of a race than an individual. With Yoshi, it's a race too but the green yoshi has been set aside in some of the canon games as "the Yoshi" that we see in the spin offs. (Pretty much all the Yoshi games.) The last non-spinoff game where Toad was an actual individual was the first Paper Mario which was released in 2001. Under his belt, he has Super Mario Bros 2 (USA), Wario's Woods, Super Mario RPG, and Paper Mario. In all the other titles, the toads are generic for the most part except for a few of them like Toadsworth.

 

[Justblaze647]

Smash is about more than what was important to the Mario franchise.

Ask yourself: is Toad detrimental to Nintendo?

 

[iLSA]

Paper Mario is one of my favorite series, and it would be cool to see some more characters from it in the next game (assuming that there will be one). Dimentio was a personal favorite, and it would be awesome to have him as a playable character (though I doubt this will happen because of his relative lack of importance to Nintendo...). Actually, having Dimentio as a boss would be awesome and probably more fitting.

Fawful would be a nice addition too, but I think he would be better off as another boss as well.

 

[Shorts]

Paper Mario is one of my favorite series, and it would be cool to see some more characters from it in the next game (assuming that there will be one). Dimentio was a personal favorite, and it would be awesome to have him as a playable character (though I doubt this will happen because of his relative lack of importance to Nintendo...). Actually, having Dimentio as a boss would be awesome and probably more fitting.

Fawful would be a nice addition too, but I think he would be better off as another boss as well.

i love paper mario, 1 and 2 that is. the third was so un paper mario on soo many levels. however i do like dimento. but hes probably too unimportant for anything more than a trophy. i mean smrpg's smithy didnt even get a trophy! sad right?

add paper mario to ssb4 as a playable character! hes well equipped with his own moveset and tons of fans!

and i like fawful, the mario rpgs got no love in brawl, and they deserve a rep. either paper mario, geno, or fawful.

 

[DarkShadow20]

According to this article, Sakurai was present at TGS 2009.

http://platinumgames.com/tag/tokyo-game-show-2009/

A bit below the second picture is a paragraph that says:

"I met lots of other people at TGS as well, like Masahiro Sakurai, who stopped by the booth. We chatted for a bit, and he gave me some words of support. Thanks so much!"


I haven't been able to find out what he was there for, so he may have shown something to a private audience. Do any of you think he was there to show a new SSB game or something?

 

[Arcadenik]

Well known =/= important. He's Nintendo's second most reoccuring character but he's more of a race than an individual. With Yoshi, it's a race too but the green yoshi has been set aside in some of the canon games as "the Yoshi" that we see in the spin offs. (Pretty much all the Yoshi games.) The last non-spinoff game where Toad was an actual individual was the first Paper Mario which was released in 2001. Under his belt, he has Super Mario Bros 2 (USA), Wario's Woods, Super Mario RPG, and Paper Mario. In all the other titles, the toads are generic for the most part except for a few of them like Toadsworth.

Uh... you forgot a few games.

Luigi's Mansion (2001) - when Luigi first finds Toad, Toad tells Luigi that Peach sent him over to find Mario; Toad is Peach's attendant, don't you think she would give Toad special assignments like helping the Mario Bros.?

Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (2003) - Toad is playable only in the very beginning and he tells Mario and Luigi about Peach's voice being stolen

Super Princess Peach (2005) - Toad is playable in unlockable mini-games; you also see only one Toad being captured in the intro, signifying that this Toad is the Toad and that the Toad represents the Toad species (there's no need to show a group of Toads being captured when one will do)

Super Paper Mario (2007) - Toad comes over in the very beginning and tells Mario and Luigi that Peach was kidnapped but the Mario Bros. assumed Bowser did it again so they ran off to Bowser's castle; Luigi even called this Toad "Toad", meaning this Toad's name is Toad unless there is another Toad named Toad

Super Mario Galaxy (2007) - Toad and Toadette are seen sitting on a hill watching Star Bits fall from the sky in the intro; Toad is also seen carrying Star Bits and is grouped with the Toad Brigade in the intro, implying that he is the Red Toad - leader of the Toad Brigade which means...

Super Mario Sunshine (2002) - retroactively, Toad is also in this game as the Red Toad; don't you think Toad would accompany Peach as her attendant? The manual even calls Toad "Peach's attendant" and the picture is that of the Red Toad, once again implying that the Red Toad is Toad.

New Super Mario Bros. Wii (2009) - after Peach is kidnapped by the Koopa Kids and the Mario Bros. and the two Toads ran after them, one of the Toads lifts two large presents and throws them into a cannon (implying that this Toad is the Toad since he displayed Toad's superhuman strength for the first time since Super Mario Bros. 2 and Wario's Woods); later Toad comes out of the castle to tell Mario that the Koopa Kids kidnapped the other Toads and hid them inside blocks.

 

[lordvaati]

2012 pages... scary O_o

anyway some vids I made, discussing stuff I'd like in SSB4.http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmjTPuDdJC0

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQuoKydYOMs

episode 2 coming soon!!!

 

[Fatmanonice]

Smash is about more than what was important to the Mario franchise.

Ask yourself: is Toad detrimental to Nintendo?

Under that logic, nobody is detrimental and thus anyone could get in. By "detrimental", I'm assuming you mean "could weaken the sales of the game if they were playable" but, from what we've seen in the past and the nature of Smash games, there aren't any characters that have that much hatred surrounding them that their mere prescence could negate all the other content Smash games offer.

 

[Arcadenik]

Ahh, yes. The "detrimental to Nintendo" argument. Yeah, that's what some people use to say Tingle and the Duck Hunt Dog would negate all the other content SSB4 have to offer and hurt the sales.

 

[Shorts]

Ahh, yes. The "detrimental to Nintendo" argument. Yeah, that's what some people use to say Tingle and the Duck Hunt Dog would negate all the other content SSB4 have to offer and hurt the sales.

i can deal with about 98% of most characters we talk about, but waluigi and duck hunt dog are the ones that i couldnt except for ssb.

does anyone have a character idea that they hate?

 

[Arcadenik]

i can deal with about 98% of most characters we talk about, but waluigi and duck hunt dog are the ones that i couldnt except for ssb.

does anyone have a character idea that they hate?

Shortie, are you saying that if SSB4 had a roster that had the following characters:

35 characters from Brawl plus Toad, Bowser Jr., Dixie Kong, King K. Rool, Mewtwo, Mega Man, Toon Zelda, Tingle, Ridley, Takamaru, Little Mac, Krystal, Samurai Goroh, Starfy, and Duck Hunt Dog

You won't buy SSB4 ever just because Duck Hunt Dog is playable? You would pass up playing as Ridley, Mega Man, Little Mac, and many others just because Duck Hunt Dog is playable? You do realize how borderline insane that is, right? That kind of thinking reminds me of that guy from Nsider years ago who said he won't buy Brawl if Lip was playable and Ayra wasn't.

Also, honestly, did you or anyone else really expect to see R.O.B. playable in Brawl months before he was confirmed?

 

[Big-Cat]

He didn't say that he wouldn't get the game if they were in. He's just saying he doesn't want them in. Stop taking things so personally.

 

[Arcadenik]

There are some characters I didn't want in Brawl but I still bought the game. I guess to me, not wanting a character playable is one thing but it is a different story when someone uses the "detrimental to Smash sales" argument against a character they don't want playable. Seriously, when you actually get to play the game, you are dealt with what you were offered so you better either get a refund or keep it and enjoy it. Really, even if Smash 4 adds a couple of characters you didn't want playable, ultimately it doesn't matter in the long run if you are enjoying the rest of the game.

 

[Big-Cat]

By rest of the game, that better mean the gameplay and online. Don't expect me to enjoy much of the single player stuff outside of the minigames, training, and hopefully a leaderboard.

 

[pass the syrup]

I think James Cameron and Sakurai should colaborate on SSB4. It'll be 4D, we will actually BECOME the characters, and the multiplayer will involve side-walk chalk.

 

[Big-Cat]

You do know that the fourth dimension is time, right?

 

[pass the syrup]

You do know that the fourth dimension is time, right?

No. This is...

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((In the spatial sense, the fourth dimension is a space with literally 4 spatial dimensions, or four mutually orthogonal directions of movement. This space, known as 4-dimensional Euclidean space, is the space used by mathematicians when studying geometric objects such as 4-dimensional polytopes. It is not to be confused with Minkowski space, where time is the fourth dimension; the latter space is not a metric space. Regarding this, Coxeter writes:

Little, if anything, is gained by representing the fourth Euclidean dimension as time. In fact, this idea, so attractively developed by H. G. Wells in The Time Machine, has led such authors as J. W. Dunne (An Experiment with Time) into a serious misconception of the theory of Relativity. Minkowski's geometry of space-time is not Euclidean, and consequently has no connection with the present investigation.
—H. S. M. Coxeter , Regular Polytopes[8]

Mathematically, the 4-dimensional spatial equivalent of conventional 3-dimensional geometry is the Euclidean 4-space, a 4-dimensional normed vector space with the Euclidean norm. The "length" of a vector

\mathbf{x} = (p, q, r, s)

expressed in the standard basis is given by

\| \mathbf{x} \| = \sqrt{p^{2} + q^{2} + r^{2} + s^{2}}

which is the natural generalization of the Pythagorean Theorem to 4 dimensions. This allows for the definition of distance between two points and the angle between two vectors (see Euclidean space for more information).
[edit] Orthogonality)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Anywho. That combined with Virtual reality and chalk....yep.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm not reading that. I looked it up on wiki after posting, and I'm flat out lolwut? on the whole thing.

 

[pass the syrup]

hahaha! I just wanted to post something ridiculously long and obnoxious. and I had no idea what the 4th dimension was.

 

[Shorts]

Shortie, are you saying that if SSB4 had a roster that had the following characters:

35 characters from Brawl plus Toad, Bowser Jr., Dixie Kong, King K. Rool, Mewtwo, Mega Man, Toon Zelda, Tingle, Ridley, Takamaru, Little Mac, Krystal, Samurai Goroh, Starfy, and Duck Hunt Dog

You won't buy SSB4 ever just because Duck Hunt Dog is playable? You would pass up playing as Ridley, Mega Man, Little Mac, and many others just because Duck Hunt Dog is playable? You do realize how borderline insane that is, right? That kind of thinking reminds me of that guy from Nsider years ago who said he won't buy Brawl if Lip was playable and Ayra wasn't.

Also, honestly, did you or anyone else really expect to see R.O.B. playable in Brawl months before he was confirmed?

no no no no no!

haha im just saying i would hate him as much as i hate r.o.b. and mr.g&w.

those two, >.>

that face says it all.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

oh look another debate

Stuff

When Toise was arguing that, It's simply because a lot of people don't like or don't care for Tingle. When it comes to the general populace, his design is hate able by current day society with most teenagers and the like ("It's gay" "It's creepy" etc) It's common knowledge that they would say something like that. Sakurai is a man who likes to keep people/fans happy.

That doesn't mean he has to follow every single request and "What the fans want" but his design is for starters sure not helping him..

but really, no character will truly destroy sales. At most, a roster on it's own can, but it'd take a lot to do that.

 

[DekuBoy]

Ooh. Duck Hunt Dog! But if Takamaru gets in I doubt we would get another NES character.

In Melee we got the Ice Climbers (NES) and Mr GaW (WTF).
In Brawl we got Pit (NES) and ROB (WTF).

So I think we will get Balloon Fighter. He, Pit and the Ice Climbers were battling for a place in Melee and now two of them are in.

 

[Arcadenik]

Balloon Fighter was not the only NES character battling Ice Climbers for a spot in Melee. Sakurai considered Bubbles from Clu Clu Land, one of the Excitebikers, and the guy from Urban Champion. Pit wasn't even considered at all. It is all there on the Ice Climbers' page in the Melee Dojo (written in Japanese, of course). Balloon Fighter was never in the beta version of Melee. If he was, don't you think we would have seen pictures of it years ago? Also, if Sakurai seriously considered Balloon Fighter for Melee, don't you think he would have added Balloon Fighter in Brawl?

As for two retro newcomers for SSB4, I'm hoping that Takamaru (NES) and Duck Hunt Dog (WTF) would get in. Takamaru is more likely now than before, thanks to his playable appearance as a guest character in Samurai Warriors 3 for the Wii. I seem to recall Sakurai saying he would consider adding Takamaru if he had another game. Maybe Samurai Warriors 3 could sway Sakurai enough to finally add the samurai. I mean, Takamaru may be still offically Japan-only and retro but his appearance in Samurai Warriors 3 might help him get international attention from today's gamers. So even if Takamaru doesn't get a sequel to his NES game before SSB4, he might still be recognizable and popular due to Samurai Warriors 3.

Duck Hunt Dog is just for the lulz. It would be very WTF-ish if he had a moveset that involved the unseen hunter from the fourth wall (the Duck Hunt player) using the NES Zapper (seen pointing at the stage from the fourth wall) to shoot at wherever the dog is pointing. Hunting dogs point and the hunters shoot, get it? It isn't as complicated as it sounds. It would just look like the dog used explosive magic. Example: The dog points up, a small explosion similar to Zelda's aerial up move appears just above the dog's pointing finger. Of course, the dog's moveset should also involve ducks (Fly Away for recovery) and clay pigeons. After all, he is not the Duck Hunt Dog if he doesn't have ducks in his moveset.

Before anyone brings up Little Mac, I don't consider him retro anymore. Before Brawl, I would have but not anymore since his series was revived on the Wii. Still, even if Little Mac was no longer retro, he would still be grouped with the other NES characters like Samus, Pit, and Ice Climbers on the character select screen.

Moving on to Tingle, sure, he may look weird or creepy to most American fans but the Japanese fans love him. Even the European fans like him enough for Nintendo to bring Tingle's game to Europe. Smash 4 is not going to be exclusive in America. It will be in Japan and Europe, too. Why keep Tingle out just to make American fans happy if it isn't fair to Japanese and European fans? Unless you want a special American version where the roster is the same as both Japanese and European, only without Tingle. If you don't want Tingle, then don't choose him on the character select screen. I don't want Sonic and Snake so I don't play as them (I play as them when I'm bored or when I choose Random).

Sakurai doesn't always listen to the majority. He wasn't even going to add Sonic until Nintendo (not Sakurai) contacted Sega and asked them for permission to put Sonic into the game. He do listen to his fans, both majority and minority, not only the majority. If he listened to the majority only, we wouldn't have gotten Ice Climbers, Falco, Pit, Wolf, Zelda, Sheik, Young Link (they weren't very high on the Melee poll as they all had less than 10 votes). Interestingly enough, Sakurai wasn't going to add Ganondorf in Melee even though he was the most wanted Zelda character with more than 30 votes and added him only because he had a similar body build to Captain Falcon and he needed someone to buff the roster size within the time constraints. Like Sakurai said, a roster that consisted of nothing but the most wanted characters doesn't interest nor excite him. You remember my "perfect" SSB4 roster? The one that lacked pizzazz?

All 35 characters plus Bowser Jr., King K. Rool, Toon Zelda, Ridley, Little Mac, Krystal, Samurai Goroh, Mewtwo, Roy, and Mega Man.

 

[DekuBoy]

Well said. Although we complain, Smash Bros would be NOTHING without Sakurai.

I was thinking today, that if the next SSB game is faster, then Olimar would need a complete revamp. I don't know if his moveset would work in a faster more frentic enviroment.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

So wait...

We won't have Balloon Fighter because he was considered for melee, but we will have
Takamaru because he is a guest character in a mediocre game...good logic.

Takamaru is still Japanese only. I guarantee you that if he got in, no one would be like "Hey who's that" "Oh that's Takamaru, he was a special character with a non-existent role in some generic sequal about 3 years ago." They're going to dismiss him as some random japanese steretypical samurai and be done with it.

 

[nohaxor]

Taking out Toon Link is garbage. since Sakurai decided to make link suck in brawl, Toon Link is a silver lining
(i'm a huge fan of the Zelda Games)
We need more good fire emblem characters like Lyn and Hector, and they better bring back Mewtwo >
also, Roy was better than Ike.
Add in Krystal, knuckles, The Black Knight, and at least make mega man an Assist Trophy
I also think they should put in an item box as a second party ball and take out the Lips stick.
Snake and meta knight=OP

 

[Pieman0920]

Balloon Fighter was rejected on the grounds that Sakurai didn't see him as a viable fighter, and because of that, its very unlikely he will show up. In addition, everything the BF is capable of can also be done by Tingle, who seems to be a much more likely character, even with the distaste overseas. Still as far as retro goes, I think we can't expect a two new characters each time, especially if you only count the NES days as retro. Its not a infinite resource after all, and pretty much all of them are sort of deadweight in terms of helping bring up sales. For the most part it also seems that Sakurai adds in retro characters to try out more unorthodox fighter concepts, or in the case of ROB, a character he can use for a plot point in the story mode without any real restrictions.

In any case, the two retro-ish characters I would put in, if I were in charge, would be Lip from PdP, and Doshin the Giant. Yes, Doshin is from the N64, but as I said, what we consider as retro gaming has to move forward. (Of course, I'm assuming Little Mac doesn't count as retro here)

EDIT: Eh? Takamaru actually got a (second) modern game apperance? Perhaps he does have a better chance than I gave him credit for. >_>

 

[Shorts]

well you have to remember, sakurai only let japan vote for the most wanted characters in brawl. so if he's just gonna let japan vote for the most wanted character in ssb4 you have to think about thisfor a second, if sakurai doesnt pick takamaru to be in ssb4, was he well liked to be able to stand up against new aged characters that fans are more likely ro vote for? ex: krystal, roy, mega man, bowser jr. ect.

and about that knuckles comment, i really hope 3rd parties cant have more than one character rep their franchise. i dont even like the sonic games that much.