[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Arcadenik: You're talking about adding characters that are, for the most part, hated by those familiar with them and incapable of appealing to those who are unfamilar. The only defense against it being "it won't be THAT bad!"

You know what's a million times better? Characters people actually like or may grow to like. We have dozens of those across the board. You're suggesting we go for the dinky Charlie Brown Christmas tree over some perfectly healthy evergreens (for the same price!).

Explain to me again why Smash should have characters like Tingle or the Duck Hunt Dog over characters people are a million times more likely to enjoy.

 

[Arcadenik]

Did i say Duck Hunt and Tingle should be the only newcomers SSB4 should have? No, because I know that is a bad idea. Instead, I suggest these two to go with a bunch of popular characters. And I maintain this...

It is borderline insane to refuse buying or enjoying the game just because those two are playable. Are you trying to tell me that Smash won't sell if Duck Hunt Dog or Tingle are playable? Are you trying to tell me that the irrational hatred towards Duck Hunt Dog or Tingle is too powerful its level is over 9000 that people won't buy or enjoy the game even if it had many popular characters like Ridley, Little Mac, Mega Man, etc.? Honestly, that kind of insane thinking reminds me of someone on Nsider who used to say he won't buy Brawl if Lip was playable and Ayra wasn't.

Edit: I also don't think Duck Hunt Dog is really hated. I think people love to hate him. There's a difference between hating someone and loving to hate someone. I think the 250th issue of Nintendo Power listed the Duck Hunt Dog as one of the favorite things people love to hate. On the same issue, Tingle and Wario are listed as weirdos and yet Wario is playable.

 

[Shorts]

Did i say Duck Hunt and Tingle should be the only newcomers SSB4 should have? No, because I know that is a bad idea. Instead, I suggest these two to go with a bunch of popular characters. And I maintain this...

It is borderline insane to refuse buying or enjoying the game just because those two are playable. Are you trying to tell me that Smash won't sell if Duck Hunt Dog or Tingle are playable? Are you trying to tell me that the irrational hatred towards Duck Hunt Dog or Tingle is too powerful its level is over 9000 that people won't buy or enjoy the game even if it had many popular characters like Ridley, Little Mac, Mega Man, etc.? Honestly, that kind of insane thinking reminds me of someone on Nsider who used to say he won't buy Brawl if Lip was playable and Ayra wasn't.

Edit: I also don't think Duck Hunt Dog is really hated. I think people love to hate him. There's a difference between hating someone and loving to hate someone. I think the 250th issue of Nintendo Power listed the Duck Hunt Dog as one of the favorite things people love to hate. On the same issue, Tingle and Wario are listed as weirdos and yet Wario is playable.

True, and im sure we all have grown to enjoy wario? I personally dont think tingle would be the greatest idea, but he wouldnt be the end of the worl. Duck hunt dog, is just a bad idea in general. Besides, i agree that there are aboout two dozen well know, well liked and generally excepted characters that would be perfectly fine in ssb4. Was Lips game even playable in the united states? Because i have never seen it. Or heard of it outside of Nsider and smashboards. I cant think of any character that would hurt sales, unless sakurai let manga/anime in smash. But he doesnt, thank god.

Why has samus and capt falcon yet to get another rep for f-zero and metroid?
Dpes anyone have a theory? They are the only two that were in the original game that havent gotten at least a second rep. If they were to get a second rep i would hope it would be ridley, and black shadow. Dark samus, would be cool too, or Samuria Gorah.

 

[Arcadenik]

Zero Suit Samus still counts as a new playable character. Metroid has two characters now. It is just two characters in one slot. Also, don't forget Yoshi. His series have been around since the original and it still doesn't get a new character. At least Metroid did even if it is not Ridley.

Edit: Lip's game was playable in the United States. You know it as Tetris Attack with Yoshi characters. Puzzle League is Lip's series but Lip only appears in the Japanese version.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Okay, so instead of 12 likable characters, we'd be getting 10 likable ones and 2 unlikables.


Look, you really are a crazy person if you think adding these characters is in any way a good idea. Your defenses are "they won't be that bad!" (bad is always bad, what kind of developer wants more bad content?), or "they're not actually bad!" (which is delusional at best; even Tingle in Japan isn't nearly as well-received as you seem to think he is).

We don't need those two, so why go out of the way to include them? Why not just include characters the majority of people DON'T react negatively towards? We have tons of those.

For the record, putting a Yugo next to a bunch of Ferraris doesn't make the Yugo suck less, so stop acting as if adding good characters can justify adding bad ones. Crap is still crap no matter how much you sugarcoat it.

 

[Shorts]

Zero Suit Samus still counts as a new playable character. Metroid has two characters now. It is just two characters in one slot. Also, don't forget Yoshi. His series have been around since the original and it still doesn't get a new character. At least Metroid did even if it is not Ridley.

Edit: Lip's game was playable in the United States. You know it as Tetris Attack with Yoshi characters. Puzzle League is Lip's series but Lip only appears in the Japanese version.

well then, if anyone deserves to rep puzzle games it would have to be either lip, or Dr. Mario. And i would prefer the Doc as a costume switch. I hope smash gets a rep for the mario Rpg games. If not Geno, then Paper Mario, if not PMario i would like to see fawful. Would Paper Mario's symbol be the mushroom like the regular mario characters?

Edit: @ Toise, youre 100% right. But still weve seen "crap" characters become peoples favorites. Like Mr. Game and Watch. I personally still think hes as lame as pichu hurting himself. But people do like him, crazy enough. so whos to say tingle wont be liked... the weirdos tend to grow on ya after a while anyway

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

None of the characters in Smash have ever earned nearly as much animosity as Tingle and the Duck Hunt Dog. Even Pichu wasn't that bad, and yet they still got rid of him without a second thought.

 

[Shorts]

None of the characters in Smash have ever earned nearly as much animosity as Tingle and the Duck Hunt Dog. Even Pichu wasn't that bad, and yet they still got rid of him without a second thought.

yep. thats true. But if HG/SS get a rep i can see either a certain pikachu colored pichu, or a specific time traveling Notch eared pichu representing HG/SS.

So we might be seeing that cuddly mouse again! Hopefully without that terrible defect, thats only in the anime. And Maybe with a few of its own moves, like thunder wave, iron tail, zap cannon and maybe discharge? Or a play on the pichu bros, but instead using both notch-ear and Pikachu colered pichu.

Alll unlikely however. I guess im just a die hard pichu player :3

No more clones, and that would go for pichu, along with Falco, wolf, toon link and ganondorf.
NO more clones my butt sakurai!

 

[Arcadenik]

None of the characters in Smash have ever earned nearly as much animosity as Tingle and the Duck Hunt Dog. Even Pichu wasn't that bad, and yet they still got rid of him without a second thought.

Pichu was popular as a baby Pikachu during the 2nd gen era. After he got into Melee, fans started hating him because he was a clone and he sucked as a Smash character. You never know... the fans might start liking Tingle and Duck Hunt Dog if they had original movesets and they didn't suck as badly as Pichu and Mewtwo.

 

[Arcadenik]

Okay, so instead of 12 likable characters, we'd be getting 10 likable ones and 2 unlikables.


Look, you really are a crazy person if you think adding these characters is in any way a good idea. Your defenses are "they won't be that bad!" (bad is always bad, what kind of developer wants more bad content?), or "they're not actually bad!" (which is delusional at best; even Tingle in Japan isn't nearly as well-received as you seem to think he is).

We don't need those two, so why go out of the way to include them? Why not just include characters the majority of people DON'T react negatively towards? We have tons of those.

For the record, putting a Yugo next to a bunch of Ferraris doesn't make the Yugo suck less, so stop acting as if adding good characters can justify adding bad ones. Crap is still crap no matter how much you sugarcoat it.

Toise, what you are saying is something very similar to "because of R.O.B., (insert popular character here) wasn't included in the game". Despite being well-liked, almost everyone reacted negatively towards R.O.B.'s inclusion over other popular characters. Yeah, R.O.B. was hated for being in Brawl. How did R.O.B. redeem himself? He proved to be a good Smash fighter and he gradually grew popular.

So, even if a disliked character like Tingle or Duck Hunt Dog were included, I have no doubt the initial reaction will be very negative. But once the fans gradually cool down and start enjoying the rest of the game, they might even see that those two characters aren't that bad and might seem interesting as original Smash fighters. These two might even gradually become popular if they were decent Smash fighters with original movesets like R.O.B. have.

 

[Pieman0920]

Tingle has people that hate him, but its not something that so large that it would disclude him from Smash. His fanbase is large enough to have gotten two games of his own after all. If Tingle earned only hatred, then he would never have shown up after Majora's Mask, and what not. While the fact that his detractors could cause him to be discluded in Smash 4, he's still the most qualified, and popular non-playable Zelda character, even with people that hate him. =/

As for the Duck Hunt Dog though, that's a different story completely. The Dog's hate isn't the type of hate that Tingle has. Its the hate of a villain sort of, or the hate of a antagonist. You're supposed to hate that dog, and the fact that you hate it means its doing its job right. Its not something that would actually take away from his chances. That being said though, the dog is still a bad idea on several other levels. Citing that he can't get in because people don't like him is about the only thing that doesn't really make sense when giving reasons why he shouldn't be in.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm not sure which is worse: this debate or the MK debate in the BTD.

 

[Shorts]

I'm not sure which is worse: this debate or the MK debate in the BTD.

yea,, can we please move onto a new topic? :/

Either of you can pick it!

 

[Big-Cat]

Come to think of it, Toise, we never did get to go far in the Subtractive Design debate.

I find Smash's movesets to be limiting, and perhaps superfluous, in some cases. There's a lot of stuff that can be given to Link and Samus for example. On the other end, a lot of characters got made up stuff in order to fulfill a special moves quota (Zelda, Capt. Falcon, Fox, etc.).

On the other hand, other fighting games do not have a quota to be necessarily met. For example, Guile has two while Akuma has much more so, and this is because of the motions present, some of which are intuitive (try doing a shoryuken with the given input in real life). Also, the motions contribute to the balance of the moves and characters overall. Take any grappler and any one of his grabs. Side B would be broken because they typically do a lot of damage. The 360 motion makes it harder to come out.

That's not to say it's better of course. It becomes harder to cancel into moves for example.

 

[DekuBoy]

The animations have to be smoother and faster like Melee.

 

[JoinDaTeam]

Hello and welcome, we are the trolls of smashboards. Playing jokes are our specialty and we usally get banned for fighting with the moderators. We've made a tons of alternate accounts.

If you want to come and rule smashboards with us, Please check out this video if your with us and want to take over smashboards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKhr6Aqzw18

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

If tinglw got in, people who do not know him would react just like people in Zelda reacted when they did not know him.

Badly.

 

[Shorts]

and you have to remember that theres no people more excepting of the weird, over the top, and random then us, the people of smashboards. so if some of us are having a hard time excepting tingle, then i can tell you right now about fifteen of my little cousins play smash and tingle would be the stupidest and ugliest thing to them, they would probably make the loser of a match be him as punishment...

 

[Arcadenik]

If tinglw got in, people who do not know him would react just like people in Zelda reacted when they did not know him.

Badly.

You make it sound like it would go like this:

*sees Tingle's smiling face for the first time ever and suddenly feels irrational hatred towards him*

Some American gamers dislike Tingle because:

- his catchphase is "Kooloo-Limpah" which sounds gay
- he wears red tights over green tights which looks gay
- he thinks he is a fairy which is gay
- his help is very expensive in The Wind Waker

If Tingle was playable, his catchphase would be one of his taunts. His storyline about thinking he is the very reincarnation of a fairy most likely would not be part of the Adventure Mode (there is hardly any storylines based on original games in Brawl anyway). He won't be very expensive in SSB4. All you have left is Tingle's famous green and red tights and his catchphase. He wouldn't even have dialogue so he would be less annoying. There is also the possibility of Tingle getting a very original moveset that makes him into a decent Smash fighter - Tingle could gain redeeming traits in spite of his unusual appearance and personality.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

So you're saying add in Tingle, but take away anything that makes him Tingle except his fairy clothes? What would be the point?

 

[Arcadenik]

So you're saying add in Tingle, but take away anything that makes him Tingle except his fairy clothes? What would be the point?

You are misunderstanding me. I am saying "tone down what makes Tingle annoying in the first place".

Anyway, they took out almost everything that made Wario Wario in Brawl. He isn't greedy nor run the WarioWare company in Brawl. He was more like his original apperance in Super Mario Land 2 where he was just a bad guy.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't dislike Tingle because of his "gayness." Rather, I don't like:

1. His entire purpose in MM was for you to buy maps, something that other games never needed you to do.
2. He is an annoying character that was vital in the Wind Waker.
3. You had to pay him to get the Triforce shards in Wind Waker.

Had he been more funny like Dan Hibiki, Taokaka, or any other given joke character in any given videogame, I'd like him more. Otherwise, he's just an asinine addition to the series.

 

[Pieman0920]

Well Tingle's inclusion in a Smash game wouldn't really require the purchase of maps or triforce shards, now would it? >_>

 

[Big-Cat]

Still doesn't take away that he's annoying as hell. That, and Wind Waker implies he's a terrible person for someone who's not a villain.

 

[Arcadenik]

Still doesn't take away that he's annoying as hell. That, and Wind Waker implies he's a terrible person for someone who's not a villain.

We don't know what he did to get into jail. He said he just showed up and then everybody went after him and arrested him. Hmm, sounds like Nintendo was making fun of people who see Tingle for the first time and start hating him.

Anyway, apparently many people found Tingle funny enough to warrant him his own game series. Despite the fact his first game sold less than 300,000 copies, you have to admit it is pretty impressive for someone with such a small fanbase. It apparently did good enough to warrant a sequel. Where's Dan Hibiki's own game, by the way?

The inclusion of Tingle and/or Duck Hunt Dog in Smash doesn't have to be a negative thing. If some of you hate Tingle and/or the Duck Hunt Dog and one or both of them are playable, you can always have fun beating them up with your favorite characters. That's something positive!

 

[Big-Cat]

Anyway, apparently many people found Tingle funny enough to warrant him his own game series. Despite the fact his first game sold less than 300,000 copies, you have to admit it is pretty impressive for someone with such a small fanbase. It apparently did good enough to warrant a sequel. Where's Dan Hibiki's own game, by the way?

Dan Hibiki doesn't need his own game. His role as the butt monkey of Street Fighter and his affectionate fanbase are all he needs. Besides, what the hell would you give him for a spin-off? A business sim where you run the Saikyou dojo?

Anyway, I'm sick of this Tingle debate. I don't care either way if he gets in or not.

 

[Arcadenik]

Make a sequel to Street Fighter 2010 starring Dan.

Okay, so what do you want to talk about then? I will sit back and watch you guys start debating about something new that was already debated to death. Besides, I need a break from all this debating for a while. See you around.

*runs off to play Brawl*

 

[Pieman0920]

It always annoys me when people insist that the topic of discussion should be changed, yet don't actually come up with something to talk about themselves. =/

 

[Big-Cat]

I posted this last page:

I find Smash's movesets to be limiting, and perhaps superfluous, in some cases. There's a lot of stuff that can be given to Link and Samus for example. On the other end, a lot of characters got made up stuff in order to fulfill a special moves quota (Zelda, Capt. Falcon, Fox, etc.).

On the other hand, other fighting games do not have a quota to be necessarily met. For example, Guile has two while Akuma has much more so, and this is because of the motions present, some of which are intuitive (try doing a shoryuken with the given input in real life). Also, the motions contribute to the balance of the moves and characters overall. Take any grappler and any one of his grabs. Side B would be broken because they typically do a lot of damage. The 360 motion makes it harder to come out.

That's not to say it's better of course. It becomes harder to cancel into moves for example.

To top it off, learning the motions aren't too hard to learn either. I'm not saying that SSB4 should have these, but it's really more of a what-if discussion.

 

[NeverFiniteX]

Tee Hee, adding Tingle.

Great add more Puffs to the franchise

Spoiler

which usually end up pwning everybody).

I'm becoming quite discouraged with the possibility of a fourth. I wonder if the Development of Brawl was this unnerving, at least 64 only needed the major all stars.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Meh, guess I'll let Arcadenik go.


@Kuma: The emphasis on similar controls between characters (at least through inputs) takes precedence though. Also, it's really not a good idea to have inputs being used as a means of balancing.

I know you're willing to read, so here's a Sirlin explanation for you.

Now, if you're suggesting more stuff like Samus and Marth's side-Bs (where some moves can be adjusted slightly), then that's always welcome.


@Pieman: Here's a subject: individual victory themes. Make me some lists, people.

 

[mystery_dungeon]

You want one, you got one.

Luigi: Boss Clear (Luigi's Mansion)
Peach: Castle Clear (Super Mario Bros)
Bowser: Same, but closer to the Paper Mario TTYD version.
Diddy Kong: Level Clear (Donkey Kong Country)
Link: Same as Melee
Toon Link: Boss Clear (A Link to the Past)
Pikachu: Level up! (Pokemon Red/Blue)
Jigglypuff: Evolution complete (Pokemon Red/Blue)
Ness: Same as Melee

If you don't see a character on there, it's either I can't think of one or they're keeping what they had for Brawl.

 

[Shorts]

i dont see why everyone hates clone character like dr. mario, but dont hate toon link and young link? they are link, just like dr. mario is mario. or is it the fact that they have clone movsets you hate? Sometimes its unclear which perspective of the clone you dislike. i like toon link and paper mario, but if they got in ssb4 they would need for the most part independent movesets from there other selves.


edit:
Peach: a song from super princess peach

from here im gonna focus on pkmn, potential newcomers and returning veterains.
mewtwo: mewtwo battle theme from fr/lg
lucario: iron island/cave theme d/p/pt
darkrai: canaclave city theme or newmoon island theme. d/p/pt
plusle&minun: mauville city theme, because thats where you find them! r/s
suicune: roaming legendary theme, either from hg/ss or d/p/pt. they could be the same, idk.
notch ear pichu: egg hatch theme hg/ss/d/p/pt.
meowth: silph co. theme or battle! leader giovanni theme, fr/lg.
pt: victory road, or indego platue theme. fr/lg

is that a nice pkmn themed list?
plus peach


edit

 

[Justblaze647]

People are forgetting that toad already exists in this game...

All you have to do is choose and press neutral b

 

[Big-Cat]

Meh, guess I'll let Arcadenik go.


@Kuma: The emphasis on similar controls between characters (at least through inputs) takes precedence though. Also, it's really not a good idea to have inputs being used as a means of balancing.

I know you're willing to read, so here's a Sirlin explanation for you.

Now, if you're suggesting more stuff like Samus and Marth's side-Bs (where some moves can be adjusted slightly), then that's always welcome.

Once, again, you provide a good read. I'm not saying similar inputs is a bad thing, I'm just saying that the given template is limiting potential in some characters. Aside from Link and Samus, the RPG characters are good examples of this. The funny thing is, if we had more than two attack buttons (maybe up to three, four tops), the problem might not be present, but then it becomes Guily Gear/BlazBlue which is a good and bad thing. I guess it depends on what you would consider important for Smash's identity.

@Pieman: Here's a subject: individual victory themes. Make me some lists, people.

Obviously, a lot of these would be arranged for speed and whatnot
Peach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF3CNNyh1mE
Zelda: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLt7Rxl0GtE
Sheik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yc7kp_ETGU
Toon Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTUfdwBPQfY#t=0m6s
Falco: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-qm3awn8pE
Krystal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKOtmoR1-kE

 

[Pieman0920]

Individual victory themes lets see...I don't have anything off hand to tell the truth, since most vicotry themes would be fanfare things that I wouldn't really keep track of like I do music. In addition, several could be easily accomplished by simply changing the instruments and style of pre-existing fanfare that we have. In any case, let me look for some stuff... (Keep in mind, most of these should be edited to a degree or altered a bit to fit)

Mario: Same Old.

Luigi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq6ifmxl3Cg&

Peach: What Kuma hs there fits perfectly if edited.

Bowser: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAJU3ze0R1A

Link: Same Old or... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4xzisXI0QY

Zelda/Sheik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slcd9ZdZ9cc
^Zelda's Lullabye doesn't really work in my opinion, and while Sheik's theme could work, I'd kind of rather have that as its own song....though technically it might be able to be both.

Ganondorf: Probably works better with a somewhat altered main theme. Perhaps this though http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK-GBUJrMdA

Toon Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKhMp5HhGWI
Shortend a bit though

Donkey Kong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5b7nD3qeJg

Diddy Kong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OboWU1wPYSQ

Yoshi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oljMHQvUhS0&
First part is what I'd like in there, but if the fanfare didn't stop, that latter part is awesome even on repeat.

Fox: Same old or a edited version of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkCZJakjghI&

Falco: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJEoTNbSJLM&

Wolf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE1Tx1_UTm4&



That's it for now. Will post more (or edit in more) in a bit.

 

[Arcadenik]

People are forgetting that toad already exists in this game...

All you have to do is choose and press neutral b

That's stupid. It is like saying, "we already have Wario in Melee, just select Mario and keep pressing X or Y until you get Mario's yellow shirt and purple overalls, so we don't need Wario in SSB3".

 

[Propeller Toad]

People are forgetting that toad already exists in this game...

All you have to do is choose and press neutral b

Yeah, but he's not a playable character and it just kind of insults him being Peach's shield. Also I hate that method as well as I generally don't like Peach so why should I press b when I hardly ever use her...

Sorry for bumping the old toad conversation again but really he deserves more than being Peach's b move...

 

[Big-Cat]

@Pieman
Some of those are rather short. Most tend to be within the ten to fifteen second range (17 for ICs). Anyway, overall, I think the victory themes should be fitting for victory and/or are significantly well known/iconic.

Luigi: Good choice, but too short. Maybe something from Luigi's Mansion or perhaps an arrangement of Mario's victory theme would be appropriate.
Peach: Agreed, considering that it has been around since SMB
Bowser: I'd go with something from the main series.
Link: That one might be appropriate for Ganondorf, at least something with that instrumentation.
Zelda/Sheik: That song isn't really as associated with them as the ones I listed. That, and some may find it to be a semi-obscure reference (ala Lucas' victory)
Ganondorf: I really have no clue.
Toon Link: I still stand by the LttP title theme.
Fox: Keep it as it is.
Falco: That works.
Wolf: Not really, I'm not sure what would go here. Maybe a metal version of Fox's?

 

[NeverFiniteX]

Accidental Double Post

Spoiler

Forgive me, I'm not sure how to delete it here