[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[SmashChu]

One of the biggest problems I have with SmashBoards is how quickly the mods are to close a topic even if it's a decent discussion/question. I'd post in the Melee boards thread but it's like some crazy person's cult.

Yeah, it's always been bad. I think it was worse before Brawl actually.

 

[ryuu seika]

And technically me and Kuma did squat, you should thank UberMario for being cool enough to take it to PMs.

Yep. I'm not good at witholding my opinion and I've recently discovered that hating Mario Kart is a lot more fun that playing Mario Kart. Unlike Brawl where the two are equally dull.

Anyway, I wouldn't want to start a not discussing Mario Kart discussion so onward to the Smash stuff.

SSB64 style again? It was almost as good as Melee and far less serious seeming without the dumbed down feel of Brawl. IMO that's what Sakurai should be aiming for if he won't revisit Melee style mechanics.

 

[UberMario]

To be honest, I felt that Brawl was more like 64 than Melee was.

 

[ryuu seika]

Yes, Brawl was more like 64 than Melee was, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying 64 was closer to Melee than Melee was to Brawl. That's a very different statement, even if it does sound very similar.

What I'm actually trying to say is that 64 is closer to a casual version of Melee that Brawl ever was. Brawl was a total dumbing down which cannot be good for the series at all.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

How is it like a cult?

Anyway, I'll respond to your post later. I didn't forget it.

A good chunk of the posters are stuck in competitive land (IE talking about specific gameplay details, assuming Sakurai's referring to competitive accessibility, unable to think outside of this context, etc.). Some of them just post "boo Sakurai, hail Melee!" There's the cult part, I guess.

The best of them rightly assume that the game's rather accessible towards people who regularly play video games, but misinterpret Sakurai's general intention of providing for people who rarely/never play video games. And there's no mention of how Brawl somewhat failed to expand on accessibility in a significant sense, it's all complaining about stuff they personally didn't like.

It's kinda funny and kinda sad how Sakurai said "you guys might not understand this."

 

[Life]

So I had a thought. That turned into an AT combo-thought. That turned into a giant wall of text as to what to do with ATs.

What if Smash 4 were to bring back L-Canceling, but when you L-Cancel an aerial it stales a second time? Stale moves (would, if they do not already) bring slightly reduced hitstun. So when comboing, you have to consider whether reduced landing lag will be better for your combo than increased hitstun, or whether you'll be using a wide enough variety of moves (between your five aerials, aerial special attacks, and possibly certain ground moves thrown in) that L-Canceling everything becomes ideal. (This assumes 4 has a decent amount of hitstun.) This means that L-Canceling is now a decision, and can therefore be brought back as it would increase depth.

Also, airdodges (which are reverted to the Melee variety) send you into cypher/spring fall instead of helpless fall. This means you can now airdodge through attacks and still have options (attacking), while also bringing back wavedashing. Airdodges while in cypher/spring fall might be possible, but work like Brawl airdodges where they're somewhat predictable (and perhaps you can cancel a Melee AD with a Brawl AD).

Keep new Brawl techs like DACUS, platform dropthrough OOS (or was that in previous games? IDR), wavebouncing, jab locks, glide-tossing and variants (I liked the aerial glide toss that became a part of PM--at least, I think it was PM), various character-specific stuff. Momentum canceling might have to go regardless due to the return of hitstun--push back the average horizontal blast zones a little if that's the case.

Let Fox jump cancel his shine again (I noticed Brawl took it out). In return, let its KB scale a little, and go slightly upward--it should still be mainly horizontal, but a couple degrees above wouldn't hurt. This last change is so that waveshine infinites aren't as much a problem, as it'd be possible to tech the wall/ground.

On meteor canceling: you can always meteor cancel when you get in the edge-of-stage bubble, but the timing for a regular meteor cancel is pushed back. Give it a brief non-repeatable window (like teching has), something like 60ish frames. Some characters cannot recover from that low (DK comes to mind). Either buff their recoveries, or tell their mains to deal with it as a weakness of their character.

Bring back bonuses. Give a Kirby Air Ride-like interface for clues as to the ones you're missing (for those who've never played it [it's quite fun IMO], Brawl's Challenges are similar). Nothing wrong with collecting them all, Mr. Sakurai.

Randomness: should not exceed the level of Norfair IMO. The ability to react to unforseen changes quickly is a decent skill to test, as long as it's not game deciding like WW and gives decent warning unlike (arguably) Picto (although it could be argued that the opponent tests this already). Obviously take out random tripping, although perhaps leaving it possible in certain more-specific scenarios could work (for example, if random tripping becomes possible if you dash repeatedly without stopping for extended periods [enough to not make dash dancing worthless], but not possible if you stop for a moment in between. Not necessarily a good idea, but something to consider).

I suddenly wanna write a Brawl codeset, LOL. Too bad my Wii's busted atm. And I have almost no clue how to go about it...

 

[fenyx4]

Sorry for going off on a tangent...I was working on this last night but didn't finish editing until today... >_>

The Cutterangs (actually called Rolling Cutter) are an idea. But there is also a big chance to see the Broken like Meta-Knight Metal Blades in action ^^

LOL... I would love to play as Megaman using the Metal Blade, Wheel Cutter, or some variant thereof... The way Wheel Cutter is implemented in Super Smash Flash 2 is how I would like to use it, although the move may seem "broken" for some people...

I have some ideas for online mode:

1. Ranking (Your rank starts at 0 and it's max is 10000. Your ranking goes up and down by how well you fight and by winning or losing. e.g. you get in 3rd place BUT you made great combos and got alot of kills so your ranking goes from 55 to 62 but if you get in 3rd and all you did was taunt, spam, and SD then you go from 55 to 47. lol, mabey there will be less taunt parties online.)
2. A Title. (e.g. if you run away from your opponents your title will be "Coward" or if your good at doing combos your title is "Combo King" that is if there is more hitstun lol.)
3. Duel (In this mode you only fight against one person with items automatically off and the only stages you can fight on are FD or Battlefield.)
4. Free-For-All
5. Team Battle
6. Spectate
7. Custom Stage Fights (Play on people's custom stages.)

You will see your opponents Title and Rank before the match and you will usually be matched with people whos ranking is close to yours. No lag would also be good. Oh, here are some other title ideas:

Smash Legend: (You have to be an excellent smasher, your ranking is or near it's limit, and you must have ALOT of wins.
Taunter: (You mostly taunt.)
Spammer: (You mostly spam.)
Flying Ace: (Excellent air game.)
Bully: (You mostly fight opponents with high damage.)
Duelist: (You mostly duel.)
Newb: (Your default title.)
Iron Wall: (Your play very defensive.)
Itemfighter: (You use items alot.)
Smasher: (You get this title when your ranking is average.)
EdgeGuarder: (Very good at edgeguarding.)
Selfdestructer: (SDs alot)
Quitter: (You quit alot.)

Meh, I'm tired of thinking of title ideas lol. I know some of my ideas are bad lol but I do have some good ones right?

As for online rankings, I dislike the idea of them in Smash. I enjoy competitiveness, but using online rankings in Smash would shift it more to the "competitive" side of Smash than I would like. I like what Brawl did by recording the characters with the "Most KOs", "Most Self-Destructs", etc. on the player's specific disc. The personalized "ranking" thing that the Smash games use (where characters are ranked on the player's specific disc/cartridge according to factors like KOs and total inflicted damage) is OK, but doing it in comparison to other players worldwide just seems like it would discourage play a bit.

I do enjoy the Bonuses that were used in Super Smash Brothers 64 and Super Smash Brothers Melee, though. Although in SSB64 they were restricted to single-player Classic mode, SSBM displayed them in the results screen as well, so you could view bonuses you "would" have gotten in 1P mode. I was very disappointed that the Bonuses were absent from Brawl, and it would be great if they returned in SSB4.

I'll wait and see for now. Here's hoping this won't be similar to the infamous "Kid Icarus Wii" thing they pulled a year or two ago.

Which Kid Icarus event occurred that was related to IGN? I'll try searching for it online, but I haven't heard of IGN "pulling" anything...

Ranks don't have caps. If you look at other games, they usually have a points system with similar methods of scoring like you mentioned.

Running away isn't a bad thing, no matter how much people say it is. It's a valid tactic.

I think something besides the titles obtained like you said, would be something like this:
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2010/nov/19/marvel-vs-capcom-3-license-card-details/

LOL, I agree with the "running away" viewpoint. Yes, it may make some players extremely frustrated, and may even force them to ragequit at times, but it's just as valid a technique as attacking is. And it brings the MMORPG RuneScape to mind... Recently, I've been partaking in an activity called Fist of Guthix, where you're forced to hunt out other players who are trying to collect "charges". And from my experience, running is extremely useful. Most players who opt to "run and hide" are labeled as n00bs, but some players really don't have that much of a choice. For instance, I'm around ~Level 50 right now, and I've had to employ running as a tactic frequently. The level cap for players (in free-to-play worlds, at least) is Level 126, IIRC, which takes a long time to reach. You get paired up with other players randomly, so in my case it could be Level 50 against Level 15, Lvl 50 against Lvl 50, or Lvl 50 against Lvl 126. The Level_126ers tend to be extremely overpowered, even with the stat reductions imposed when one is getting hunted, so lower-leveled players hardly stand a chance in close combat, resulting in the higher-leveled players winning most of the time (rewards are based on tokens; if you win, IIRC you get 5-20+ tokens, otherwise you get 1 token for consolation. Most of the prizes cost 300 tokens or more.) Thus, commence the running. It's the one thing that helped me earn a much-relished victory against a Level 82 player (who, despite having an advantage in power, decided to run as well when I was hunting -_-). Well actually, said player ragequitted and forfeited because he couldn't find me, but that's beside the point. Just pointing out a benefit of running in videogames...

So, how about some detailed Stage concepts?
I'll start it off, I suppose...
Bowser's Castle-Basically a Castle-y area. Has plenty of Lava, Gray Blocks, and even a Bowser statue that can occasionally Shoot Fire or Bounce Around, like in Mario World! Based off of the concept of 'Why don't we have any evil Castle areas yet?', and takes ideas from all of the Bowser's Castles, including those from SMB, SMW, SMB3, SMRPG, and even MK64.

Also, no matter what, both Pictochat and Hanenbow have to return, as they can't just get rid of those symbols, and I'm not seeing any other stage possibilities there. The way I see, there will be 15 Brawl Stages, one from each franchise included in Melee(Mario Bros, Donkey Kong, Yoshi's Island, Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Kirby, StarFox, F-Zero, Pokemon, Motherbound, Ice Climber, Fire Emblem, Game & Watch), as well as those 2 stages.

I would really enjoy Bowser's Castle being featured as a "Bowser" stage...I'm just hoping it would be very distinguishable from something bland like a Luigi's Mansion+Norfair fusion.

Personally, I think all past Smash stages should return except the ones that have multiple incarnations (namely Battlefield and Final Destination, which will probably get updated in SSB4. And this excludes the Yoshi's Island/Story stages that share the same name across games yet tend to be completely different concepts.)

As for the stage icon thing, I'm assuming Smashville would have to return as well (and that stage's universe even has more featured content in the game than both Pictochat and Hanenbow, so it has even more staying power).

We've been mentioning third-parties for a while now. We just don't mention characters that will not make the cut, like Sora or Cloud. Sakurai - in an interview - mention, while developing Brawl, that they will only add third-party characters that have appeared in games released on a Nintendo console. Sora and Cloud do not fit that bill. Sora's only appearance on a Nintendo system - and by extension, Cloud Strife - was Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories (I dunno about 358/2 Days, since I've yet to play it). The thing is, they were on handhelds rather than consoles. Sonic has appeared on Sonic games for Gamecube and Wii, while Snake appeared on the NES and Gamecube. So, unless Square-Enix start making Kingdom Hearts games or Final Fantasy VII/VII spin-offs starring Cloud for a Nintendo console, I really don't see either character being added to a Smash Bros. roster.

Well, that depends on your definition of "console"... From my experience, it can either mean videogame systems connected to your television (Nintendo Wii, Sony Playstation 3, Microsoft XBox 360, etc.); portable videogame systems (Nintendo Game Boy line, DS, 3DS; Sony Playstation Portable); or a catch-all term for both types (TV-connected and handhelds). This is partially why the term "home console" exists, to differentiate it from the portable "handheld console"... But I'm unclear what which type of "console" Masashiro Sakurai was referring to - I personally interpreted it as meaning both TV-connected and handheld consoles, in which case Kingdom Hearts would qualify by falling into the "handheld" consoles via Chain of Memories. And by that virtue, Sora (and to an extent Cloud) would both qualify for inclusion in the Smash series.

Heck, even DekuBoy used "console" in the handheld sense when referring to the Nintendo 3DS in this post:

Well you pretty much ignored my point. You need 4 consoles to play multiplayer. That is a problem.

------------

Regarding playability, I think Sora would make for an excellent character... I really enjoy his current moveset in Super Smash Flash 2, except for that his current Up Special is Glide (as in the actual gliding technique), which completely wastes a move slot as he can glide using normal means as well like the other characters. And I haven't even played KH yet, but I assume there are plenty of KH abilities that could serve as his Up Special, rather than duplicating a technique already included in his moveset. -_-

I find it a bit...pathetic...that the only way Cloud currently qualifies for inclusion in Smash is by dint of a KH link... I mean, really? The Final Fantasy series started on a Nintendo console back when it was originally going to be a one-shot title, so it's a bit disappointing that one of the series' more notable titles is on a non-Nintendo platform. Hopefully Final Fantasy 7 gets a remake on a Nintendo home or handheld console... Personally, I would use the Warriors of Light from the original game Final Fantasy 1 as a starting point...you have six usable characters right there, one of which (the Black Mage) is nearly iconic with the FF series.

Yoshi is way better in games that don't involve Mario.

And on another topic, I had a dream where I was playing four way no time limit Brawl (WTF I don't play Brawl and I certainly don't play timeless 4way). While nothing seemed odd during the dream (it never does, no matter how senseless they get), I woke up and suddenly realised who the perfect character for me was. Unfortunately, Palmon Patamon isn't in the real game .

I'll expand on this idea quite a bit later on, but including the Digimon franchise in Smash Bros. is one of my main wishes for SSB4. Come on, what Mon fan wouldn't want to settle the age-old Pokemon vs. Digimon rivalry in a round of freaking Smash Brothers? Nintendo knows it exists, so they might as well profit off of the rivalry... Considering the series has had a few Nintendo exclusives, they don't seem to be too distant from using the Digimon franchise...heck, one pair of Digimon games even mimics what the Pokemon franchise started! And on the Nintendo DS, no less!!! (which now has seven main series Pokemon "versions" of its own right now).

And yes, Digimon satisfies the "debuting in a videogame" requirement for SSB...with the Digimon Virtual Pet! Yes, it's a very primitive videogame, but it counts! Nintendo even has similar products with the Pokemon Pikachu 1 and 2, along with the recent PokeWalker that was bundled with Pokemon HeartGold and SoulSilver Versions. Like it or not, the two franchises are destined to run into each other.

Speaking of Mario Kart, it'd be awesome if "Rainbow Road" could be a stage in the next smash bros, it could operate similarly to how Mute City works, but using MKDS' RR. (Complete with battling on top of the loop-de-loop).

I'm all for the psychedelic Rainbow Road being a potential Smash stage, but I'd like it to operate differently than Mute City and Port Town Aero Dive do. The old-stage-in-new-skin thing that Brawl did with Port Town Aero Dive and Rumble Falls (Mute City and Icicle Mountain, respectively) is getting a bit annoying. Similar to how we had Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams, and Yoshi's Island: Yoshi's Story (SSBM) in the same game with virtually the same structure (aside from Fountain's occasionally moving platforms and YS's cloud and Shy Guys, but those seem like minimal differences). At least change the platform placement like Lylat Cruise attempted to. Still, I believe Rainbow Road holds much potential...

So, I got this mode idea.
It's like Adventure mode from Melee, but it's also different.

For one thing, it's character-specific, so each character has their own unique experience.

OK, so the first level would be a sidescrolling level based off of your character's games, similarly to how the first level of adventure mode is the Mushroom Kingdom.

Level 2 would be a fight against a character-specific foe. For Mario it's Bowser, for Link it's Ganondorf, and each matchup fights each other.

Level 3 would be a level based on another universe in SSB, chosen depending on your character. For example, Ness can go to Mario's level 1 for his level 3.

Level 4 would be a fight against a character from that universe, chosen randomly.

Level 5 would be a minigame-type thing based on one of a few universes. There could be a StarFox Shmup bit, an F-Zero Race bit, a series of Wario Ware microgames, or even an RPG sequence, among others. This is chosen at random.

Level 6 would be a fight against 3 at the most random members of their franchise. Franchises with only one character fight a mirror match. Depending on number of foes, the level of foes increases(Fight against 3 level 4s, 2 level 5s or 1 level 6).

Level 7 would be yet another sidescrolling bit, this one chosen at complete random.

Level 8 would be a fight against 3 random foes, and they can fight each other too.

Level 9 will be a dark, ominous sidescrolling sequence based on your game again. For Mario you're playing Bowser's Castle, for Link you're climbing Ganon's Tower, for Ness you're traveling up the road that leads to Giygas. There will be no enemies here.

Level 10 will be a boss battle against a boss, like the ones in the SSE, for your character. Playing as Mario, you fight Petey Piranha. Luigi, King Boo. Kirby, Dark Matter. Metaknight, Galact Knight, etc. Bowser you fight...Dark Bowser from Mario & Luigi 3, or maybe just Blizzard Midbus? Each character will have their own boss, and it will be epic. Each boss from the SSE can be reutilized here, perhaps excepting Duon and Galleom in favor of series-specific bosses.

Level 11 will be a secret level, done by completing the mode on Hard or higher, without using Continues. This mode is a boss fight with Tabuu. This can be likened to fighting Giga Bowser in Melee's Adventure Mode.

What do you guys think? If you like it, I MIGHT(Repeat, MIGHT) put up a list of bosses for the characters on my roster later.

LOL...it seems interesting, but if I only wanted to linearly play against certain foes, I'd just go play the original game (i.e., for Pokemon, I'd just play Pokemon Emerald Version or something). The series' specific boss sounds a bit intriguing, though...

Alrighty.
Let's have some Color change ideas!
I'll go ahead and say a recolor of Bowser to look like Midbus, and give Bowser Junior the color sets of all 3 Koopa Kids from Mario Party, as well as Shadow Bowser Jr, where he looks all painty and gooey. Also give Little Mac all of his different color schemes, as well as a color change based off of his appearance in Super Punch Out!!.

Hmm... Well, for Pokemon, can we use their freaking shiny colorations?! I mean, Charizard and Lucario have awesome shinies from the Pokemon games, and instead we get pink Charizard and "green-tinged" Lucario... -_- I mean, shiny Pokemon were apparently made specifically to showcase palette swapping and the color abilities of the GameBoy Color in the second Pokemon Generation, so I have no idea as to why they weren't used at all.

As for Link, I'm a bit disappointed they didn't utilize the Magical Armor and Zora Armor from Twilight Princess; instead going for palette swaps only. The Gold and Dark Link variants are major pluses, but I still feel the designers could have added a bit more depth... If Wario can have palette swaps and change of clothes, I think it would be feasible for Link as well, who has had to rely on tunic color swaps for a few games... TP actually brought us differently colored designs that IMO would've worked perfectly in Brawl.

In an effort to end a ******** Mario Kart conversation and to have this discussion in a place that isn't overwhelmingly biased in favor of Melee, I present:

Masahiro Sakurai Reflects on Super Smash Bros. Melee

"There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."


I'm gonna say "I called it/told ya so/etc." and hope you guys have a discussion going for tomorrow.

...at least I have an excuse now for why I was unable to learn WaveDashing properly.

- I don't treat this as proof that new Smash Bros. games are incapable of pleasing the competitive scene on a level that Melee did, but it's pretty clear that it'll do so in its own way. And if that doesn't happen, well, sorry guys. There are plenty of games out there to scratch your competitive itch though.

...but not like Smash... T_T

I dont know who's running the Nintendo side of IGN this days.. but seriously, the bad thing about Melee is its graphics?. Play Brawl on an sdtv on melee stages and theyre practically the same (visually).. and the good thing about Brawl is the EFFIN' ONLINE!!??

^I LOL'd at this...

http://wii.ign.com/articles/113/1138536p1.html
IGN's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Review: IGN's Original Brawl Review
The Good: Incredible roster; The Subspace Emissary... 'Nuff Said.
The Bad: Online; no TIIIIITLEEEEE SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAM!!!
The Broken: Meta Knight

Fixed.

 

[DekuBoy]

I've been looking at the people responding to the Sakurai interview thread and am now adamant on one thing:

As long as me and my friends love the next one as much as the last three I couldn't care less about the rest of the world. At the end of the day that's how the game was designed.

 

[mystery_dungeon]

Which Kid Icarus event occurred that was related to IGN? I'll try searching for it online, but I haven't heard of IGN "pulling" anything...

This is the infamous Kid Icarus Wii (fake) rumor from IGN.

 

[ryuu seika]

The best of them rightly assume that the game's rather accessible towards people who regularly play video games, but misinterpret Sakurai's general intention of providing for people who rarely/never play video games. And there's no mention of how Brawl somewhat failed to expand on accessibility in a significant sense, it's all complaining about stuff they personally didn't like.

It's kinda funny and kinda sad how Sakurai said "you guys might not understand this."

. Even understanding part of where Sakurai was coming from, I still failed to comprehend this idea of aiming the game at non-gamers. Brawl did expand on the accessibility significantly I would say. Perhaps not significantly enough and definitely at far too hight a cost but it did increase accessibilty.

The failing point of Brawl is not that it didn't cater to the target market. Brawl did exactly what it was intended to do. The failing point lies in the fact tht it was targeted at a market that, by its very nature, knew nothing about the game that was targeted at them. That market has become more substantial in recent years but you still cannot afford to forsake series fans entirely in favour of newcomers who you can't be certain will even ever hear of the game. It is simply bad buisiness.

Unfortunately, this problem isn't a problem with Smash but modern gaming itself. Nintendo consoles consist almost entirely of games aimed at newcomers to gaming itself while the other companies are almost entirely hardcore serious and violent games. The gap between casual gamers and hardcore gamers has been forced so far apart that those of us who wish to play silly games at a serious level are nolonger seen as a viable audience.

There is simply no room for another Melee in the modern concept of gaming.

 

[Vigilante]

I'm not putting any third party characters, or else I,d put Geno and stuff like that. I'll just focus on Nintendo characters. And I want a Melee kind of game, not a casual game.

Mario.
Luigi.
Peach.
Bowser.
Fawful
Wario
Yoshi.
Lip.
Donkey Kong.
Diddy Kong.
Dixie Kong.
King K. Rool.
Link.
Young Link (Toon Link moveset).
Zelda/Shiek.
Gannondorf.
Vaati. (Humanoid form)
Old Man (Joke)
Lucas
Ness
Captain Falcon
Samurai Goroh
Isaac
Kirby
King Dedede
Metaknight
Pit
Platuneta
Medusa
Pokemon Trainer
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo (Lucario alternative moveset)
Little Mac
Marth
Ike (His moves are very unique)
Next FE character.
Fox Mccloud.
Captain Olimar.
Mr. Game & Watch.
Falco Lombardi
Wolf Odonnel.
Krystal (Staff)
Slippy Toad (Uses mechanical items to fight)
Peppy Hare
Ray MK II
Professor Layton
Takamaru
Andy (Advance Wars)
Ice Climbers
Samus / Zero Suit Samus

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

. Even understanding part of where Sakurai was coming from, I still failed to comprehend this idea of aiming the game at non-gamers.

There are more non-gamers in existence than either average players or passionate players (and yes, I'm avoiding "casual" and "hardcore" because their connotations aren't completely accurate and they sound ********). That's the problem with video games not being mainstream quite like TV or movies.

From a business and social standpoint, video games have a lot more to gain by trying to include new fans over ignoring them in favor of pampering people like us. Sakurai realizes this. Most developers don't. Sakurai is more successful that most developers. Surprise!


The rest of your post is that same kind of "woe is the hardcore gamer" mentality that misinterprets the reality of gaming. If don't think there are enough games out there that cater to whatever tastes you might have, you either aren't looking very hard or you're pulling some serious green eggs and ham ****.

Old Man (Joke)

OLD Man

Spoiler

you didn't say it right

 

[Big-Cat]

From a business and social standpoint, video games have a lot more to gain by trying to include new fans over ignoring them in favor of pampering people like us. Sakurai realizes this. Most developers don't. Sakurai is more successful that most developers. Surprise!

Why not keep both? It doesn't have to be where you just bring in new players or satisfy only the fans.

I still say that one of the best way to design a game, difficulty wise, is to have a gradual difficulty curve. One of the reasons I love Galaxy 2 is because of this. Compare the difficulty of world 1 to world S. With the first three or so worlds, I felt they were pretty easy, wondering if I should've gotten the game, but the game practically adjusted itself with the later levels being more challenging. Then there's World S, especially with trying to get the Comet Coin on the Thwomp level that has made me curse at a videogame with the F word for the first time ever (the second being Other M's Hard Ridley fight).

And I still think it's unfair to compare Sakurai to other developers. Why? He's made three fighting games that feature iconic Nintendo characters as its playable cast. People like crossovers, especially ones where the question of who can beat who in a fight can actually be answered and these are Nintendo characters we're talking about (all of which are popular in their own right).

Oh, and one more thing, can anyone provide data on how many people RETURNED/SOLD their Brawl copies?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Why not keep both? It doesn't have to be where you just bring in new players or satisfy only the fans.

All Smash games do both as far as the overwhelming majority of average players (about 99% of the fans) are concerned. They wouldn't have sold as well and maintained such high playtimes if they didn't do this.

I still say that one of the best way to design a game, difficulty wise, is to have a gradual difficulty curve. One of the reasons I love Galaxy 2 is because of this. Compare the difficulty of world 1 to world S. With the first three or so worlds, I felt they were pretty easy, wondering if I should've gotten the game, but the game practically adjusted itself with the later levels being more challenging. Then there's World S, especially with trying to get the Comet Coin on the Thwomp level that has made me curse at a videogame with the F word for the first time ever (the second being Other M's Hard Ridley fight).

I really hope you were trying to make a point about the learning curve (accessibility/mastery) instead of the difficulty curve (single-player mode).

And I still think it's unfair to compare Sakurai to other developers. Why? He's made three fighting games that feature iconic Nintendo characters as its playable cast. People like crossovers, especially ones where the question of who can beat who in a fight can actually be answered and these are Nintendo characters we're talking about (all of which are popular in their own right).

Considering there are plenty of games that regularly outsell Smash and have been doing so since they first landed on the market, I really don't think it'd be fair NOT to compare Sakurai to other developers. Or even Sakurai vs. Sakurai: the first Kirby game sold more than the first Smash, and Kirby didn't have the luxury of existing characters.

Oh, and one more thing, can anyone provide data on how many people RETURNED/SOLD their Brawl copies?

Nope, nobody tracks used game sales that precisely, largely because publishers don't earn anything from them.



@Vigilante guy: I didn't notice your list was first-party only until just now, but Layton is owned by Level-5.



edit: skadfjsd I have too many posts on this page, you guys should post more with anything and everything (except Mario Kart)

 

[Vigilante]

My mistake. I forgot Saki anyways.

For hardcore/casual divide. I merely think that the sygenistic approach isn't the right way. Choosing one crowd will inevitably damage your appeal to the other. This is why I think a simple and a complex mode would actually be a better fit. Probably not very manageable from a business standpoint, but we can,t be blamed for dreaming.

I find Brawl unplayable, so I wonder if I should even be considering a Smash 4.

 

[Jaklub]

This is why I think a simple and a complex mode would actually be a better fit. Probably not very manageable from a business standpoint, but we can,t be blamed for dreaming.

Part the fanbase even further.

 

[Big-Cat]

There's no real effort put into breaking in new players. This is what should be done, not dumbing down the game. Not only that, but remove some of the unnecessary difficulties and some other things (looking at both Melee and Brawl).

1. The timing of the short hop. We have two jump buttons, why not make one the short jump?
2. The precision of the tether grabs. I don't understand this as much as I thought. Apparently, there are fewer options with the Brawl changes, but there was some precision issues when ti came to grabbing thin ledges.
3. Remove L-Canceling. Just make the landing lag just a few frames regardless of the condition. The original intent of L-Canceling was to pull the shield up earlier anyway.
4. Wavedash. Probably down forward/down back+ Short Hop
5. Do something about PK Thunder. I remember playing the original SSB and had a hard time pulling this off at first, it also limits the MOTHER boys' recovery options.

Other than those, a beginner mode wouldn't be a bad idea. It should be designed so that the controls give you limited options (ala TvC's wiimote settings) so that while you can be happy with the beginner controls, you have an incentive to go on with the default controls.

 

[UberMario]

Other than those, a beginner mode wouldn't be a bad idea. It should be designed so that the controls give you limited options (ala TvC's wiimote settings) so that while you can be happy with the beginner controls, you have an incentive to go on with the default controls.

*cough*Single-Button Melee*cough*

Spoiler

Of course, it prevented the players from using recovery moves, but it fits your description.

 

[Big-Cat]

Single Button was the closest thing we had. You got let them use the specials though. I was thinking of an auto-recover provided that you're within some range.

 

[Vigilante]

Here's the thing. We understand some players enjoy Brawl. But some of us don't. It's so slow and clunky that I get irritated just playing it. It's so slow I get bored before the match even ended. Melee pumps my adrenaline, Brawl does not. We got accustomed to fast-paced gameplay, so we are thrown off by slow mechanics.

And how is it parting the two camps even more? Casuals and core hardly ever play together anyways. The one thing I know is that things never change through inaction. You beleifs are only as good as your ability to defend them. So I'm writing down possible solutions and sending them to Nintendo. Sure, they'll likely be ignored, but I'll have done something.

 

[ryuu seika]

And how is it parting the two camps even more? Casuals and core hardly ever play together anyways.

There was a time when a happy medium could be found. These days the vast majority of games are either extreme one or extreme the other. Games like Melee that look like casual games but don't play that way don't seem to happen anymore.

 

[Vigilante]

I think part of it is that our core gamers became much more accustomed to complex playing styles. Not to mention, that we are a hard public to please. Companies always have to raise the standard with each game, or they start losing us.

I guess you can say we're like connoiseurs... Once we know quality, we will not settle for less. Casuals don't care as much as we do. Technically, even wavedash and L-Cancel didn't matter for the casuals. They didn't even know it existed. Rather, the speed is the only thing that bothered them. So speed options might be a way to tackle that. But the game needs to be more like Project M. As much as I like Melee, I'm liking the project M balance more. I find that more characters seem tourney-capable.

 

[Big-Cat]

Speed wise, I think it should be about 75% of Melee speed. Come to think of it, what they did for Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix was that you could adjust the speed of the game. Leave the default speed at what I suggested and have slower speeds available (make a higher one and you'll have debates on competitive standards).

 

[Vigilante]

I'd be more of a fan of a Project M/Melee kind of speed and then a slower speed. If you,re going to please the core, you can't do an "almost".

 

[Big-Cat]

I'd love a Melee speed as well.

You know one thing I've thought about a while back but never mentioned? What is the line between accessibility and laziness? The more I think about it, it's just lazy if you don't want to learn even the most basic of controls such as recovery and Smash attacks.

 

[Z1GMA]

I'm hoping for more 'good' stages.
Olimar's stage, srsly...

More kinds of small, neutral stages (and small/middle).

 

[Vigilante]

I would rather see the return of classic stages, and a few of both neutral and dynamic stages.

 

[KingMarth]

Matthew basically is Isaac. Though he learns quake sphere earlier.

I vote Isaac or Matthew, and then Saturos or Alex.

I have some ideas for the Isaac/Matthew character
Movement speed similar to Roy's

Move-set:
Neutral A combo- punch with sword hand, two horizontal slashes
Ftilt- Bottom to Top slash, medium strength
Utilt- Short sword swipe starting at back of the head towards front, doesn't hit forward much
Dtilt- quick swipe downwards, can trip
Dash Attack- Jump Slash animation from Golden Sun, good range

Fsmash- Double hit, quick sword slash, Megiddo Meteor hits quickly afterwards. Best kill Move
Dsmash- Swings powerfully in front, Earth rises strongly behind at the same time for horizontal knockback
USmash- Not sure on this one, throws small boulder upwards that disappears quickly?

Nair- Full body swing like Ike's Nair
Fair- Stab Forward, fast little landing lag, small hitbox
Uair- Spin slash, like Marth's Uair
Bair- Powerful elbow backwards, same effect as Falcon Knee, small hitbox
Dair- Fast Kick downwards, Meteor smashes, moderate landing lag

Neutral B- Djinn Storm -Two kinds, First charges up a collection of 5 Djinn that encircle the character which also increase strength and knockback and stays with character until death or unleash of 2nd part. Fairly weak without this. Second charges up a sword range hit that hits with all 5 djinn and then a very strong hit.
Side B-Quake Sphere- sends a earthquake to damage and knock opponent into air. Extremely low knockback scaling with a base knockback slightly less than DK's DownB. Can hit airbourne opponents if they are low to ground. The earthquake travels 1/3 the length of FD, has an area of effect similar to DK's ground B. Travels fairly fast and has a short duration
Up B- Clay Spire-Two Earthen Spires drop very close to each other slightly in front and above the character, which he quickly jumps off of. Will hit the area to the front and slightly below him for a small amount of damage. Goes helpless after use
Down B- Mother Gaia- Essentially DK's Down B, but with Rocks rising out of the ground around Isaac and dealing less knockback. Deals more damage than Ground Pound, can't kill.

Grab- Reasonable grab distance
Pummel- Punches opponent with sword guard
Fthrow- Uses the move psynergy to throw opponent forward
Bthrow- Same as Fthrow, except backwards
Uthrow- Tosses opponent upwards with Move
Dthrow- Slams opponent into the ground with Move and sinks them into the ground like DK's headbutt but for less time

Any thoughts? Ideas for changes? I think if he had physics similar to Roy's dash speed, walk speed, air speed, etc he would be a good character. Let me know what you think

I wondered why no one responded to my post (I liked it) when I saw Toise tell the megaman guy to include pictures, so heres some pictures I could find. And no, they aren't any good.

Forward Smash:
For the Fsmash, I figured a Megiddo type attack would work. Megiddo was the special attack of the best weapon in the game. If Ike gets to use Ragnell, and Marth uses Falchion this only makes sense to me.

Neutral B:
Djinn Storm is an attack used by higher level bosses, I just ported the name for no good reason. Thought it sounded cool. As the game progresses and Isaac collects more Djinn they passively raise his power and he can use them in battle at the cost of their benefits temporarily. I think this would be a cool aspect of Isaac

Side B:
One of Isaacs first spells is the quake line of psynergy. Quake can hit 3 targets whereas Quake sphere can hit 7. A good reason for it to be a ranged yet AOE attack in my book. The picture is ****ty, but you get the idea

Up B:
This was weird, because few things fit a rising ability. From the looks of things, if the spires were more flat on top (as they always appeared to me) He could easily jump off one or two and rise through the air.

Down B:
Should be Grand Gaia instead of Mother Gaia, my bad. Isaacs strongest psynergy (i think a cool theme would be to give the down commands the best moves for isaac since he is earth based and all....i dunno) a badass spell that has to be in the game.

That should be all the terminology that you need to know to understand what im saying. If no one responds again ill be very sad

 

[Zap tackle]

Personally, I'd like to see the return of the music changes for the various stages in some modes. For example, I remember how the music changed to the Birdo boss tune music when a super sudden death match played in Melee's Mushroom Kingdom 2 stage. To me, it made the battle feel somewhat different, and as well more intense. I don't remember Brawl having something similar to this.

 

[ryuu seika]

I would rather see the return of classic stages, and a few of both neutral and dynamic stages.

I want Dreamland back!

Personally, I'd like to see the return of the music changes for the various stages in some modes. For example, I remember how the music changed to the Birdo boss tune music when a super sudden death match played in Melee's Mushroom Kingdom 2 stage. To me, it made the battle feel somewhat different, and as well more intense. I don't remember Brawl having something similar to this.

I thought of this and wondered why the game didn't have it. It's nice to know that Melee did and I just never noticed.

 

[SmashChu]

I normally don't post in this thread. So two things.

There's no real effort put into breaking in new players. This is what should be done, not dumbing down the game. Not only that, but remove some of the unnecessary difficulties and some other things (looking at both Melee and Brawl).

1. The timing of the short hop. We have two jump buttons, why not make one the short jump?
2. The precision of the tether grabs. I don't understand this as much as I thought. Apparently, there are fewer options with the Brawl changes, but there was some precision issues when ti came to grabbing thin ledges.
3. Remove L-Canceling. Just make the landing lag just a few frames regardless of the condition. The original intent of L-Canceling was to pull the shield up earlier anyway.
4. Wavedash. Probably down forward/down back+ Short Hop
5. Do something about PK Thunder. I remember playing the original SSB and had a hard time pulling this off at first, it also limits the MOTHER boys' recovery options.

Other than those, a beginner mode wouldn't be a bad idea. It should be designed so that the controls give you limited options (ala TvC's wiimote settings) so that while you can be happy with the beginner controls, you have an incentive to go on with the default controls.

The problem is you are an upper level player. You are a hardcore fighting game fan. So things that may help weaker players seem like "dumbing the game down, " such as speed. A slower game isn't bad (and it's only slower compared to Melee). The speed makes it easier for newer players to get into it. But it seems like dumbing down because you are a hardcore player. You think Melee is the "right," speed when it may be too fast for lower end players and those who are trying to get in, and something closer to Brawl is "right.". I can tell you that talking to other people, they find the verses games to be too fast.

But let's look at each of these one by one.

1)Short hops are only used by the top players (I am pretty good and I never short hop). Most people playing wont need it and it's not worth adding an extra button. As far as control go, "keep it simple stupid." The less the better.
2)Options should be a sign that this is targeted at hardcore players, not weaker ones. Tether recoveries lock on to ledges and that's good enough for players who just need to recover. Sure, hardcore Smash players may want different, but the point of Smash Brothers is to make a game for the unloved. For the newer players or those who are not hardcore fighting fans.
3)Only higher level players want less lag. Brawl's makes more sense and weaker players wont notice the few frame change.
4)Wavedashing is one of the worst things to happen to Smash and thank god it got removed. The problem with these is that it gives a technique that will help higher level players beat the lower ones and they have to learn it to compete. To these weaker players, they have two options: learn the technique or quit. Since most of them are not invested heavily into the game, they'll quit. Wavedashing is only fun to those who do it. It is the greatest way to push players away. Many people were afraid of it when online came out as these hardcore players will wreck the weaker ones because they know how to do the technique. In laments terms, it will make Smash Brothers less fun. If anything could have killed Smash, it would be wavedashing.
5)This has nothing to do with the overall game and is just one characters. Besides, Lucas is the easier Ness.

On simple mode: simple mode is the opposite of what to do. To lower players, it waters down the game. It doesn't make it fun for them. They would rather have control over their game.

The problem with Smash is it's hard to make it simpler. It's going to be somewhat complex with the amount of moving around and things you can do. What is preventing Smash from being ones of these games along side games like Mario Kart Wii is one big thing. Playing with people who have never played, it has to do with recovering (most likely why Sakurai made a Dojo post about it). Now, it may never be a 20million seller, but there is a promising future in Smash. I suspect that barrier will be the new innovation for the next Smash.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The other thing is that I think I know why no one liked the SSE.

Up until Brawl's release, people were very excited for the SSE. It was going to be a huge expansion on Melee's Adventure mode. But when it came out, it fell flat. People blame the story, but I think it has nothing to do with that. I think it has more to do with the fact that it doesn't fit with the rest of the game.

First, one reason why I think cross over games don't work is they try to make up a reason why the universes collided, and usually the reason is because the plot they make up is only interesting to die hard fans. Smash Brothers did a good job of trying to make the story very minimal and not make a big reason why the characters fight. Up until Brawl, the story was more assumed than told (although more has been elaborated with each game). In 64, they were assumed to be toys someone was playing with, and the game might be someone's imagination. But the game never tells you that. In Melee, it was trophies, but never more than that. The SSE tried to make a story behind the game, which may have been a mistake. Now I think the story is the best it can be for this kind of game. They give a good explanation for the events without going to complex with it. Simply, the trophies fight (which we already figured) and they have to stop something destroying their world. Many people complained that the world was very dry, but it was likely because it they tried to meld the world, it would have gotten silly. It was a good job in this regard.

The problem though is that the entire thing doesn't fit. The lack of story was always good because the game was just about crazy fights with Nintendo characters (and guest in Brawl). So multiplayer and replayability were always the focus. The reason the mode doesn't work, along with the story problems, is that it removes replayability. Story heavy games already have a problem with being repayable because the story is only really interesting the first time. So while many people liked the cut scenes, they did not hold their own in the long tail. The other thing is that when you try to go back and play the levels, they will not be as fun. Some levels are almost unplayable without the cut scenes that restore damage and lives (the Battlefield Fortress being one). And once the credits roll it's not to much fun to play the levels again. The Great maze is my best example. Would you ever want to revisit the Great Maze? Of course not. There is no clear goal and it was more of a chore than a level. It was a way to extend the game. It may be OK the first run though, but would not want to go back.

If you ever get a chance, check out the Iwata Ask on Donkey Kong Country Returns. They mentioned that they would only approve levels or consider them finished if they got the best grade. So this way, every level was good. The SSE was a lot more built around being a story rather being a mode.

Everyone loved Melee's mode, so it was strange that people unanimously hated the SSE (or disliked it). But think about it: in Melee's mode, you could always come back to the game and have it be fun. The levels felt more fun despite Brawl's might be designed better. Melee's Adventure Mode worked because it was made like Classic and All Star, modes that worked in Smash. It was made so that you'd want to play it over and over again with different characters and difficulties.

So to make a good Adventure Mode, the answer is clear. Make it replayable. Make it like the other mode and old school games before it: make it short (2 hours max) and replayable so people would want to go back. Maybe have it where you have branching paths and by doing things in the levels, you go to different stages. This will make an Adventure mode that lives with the rest of the game.

 

[mystery_dungeon]

So to make a good Adventure Mode, the answer is clear. Make it replayable. Make it like the other mode and old school games before it: make it short (2 hours max) and replayable so people would want to go back. Maybe have it where you have branching paths and by doing things in the levels, you go to different stages. This will make an Adventure mode that lives with the rest of the game.

If I may add, taking one path may have you face character x, but taking another will have you face character y instead.

For example, imagine a Zelda stage similar to the Melee one in appearance with three paths-one leading up, one to the right, and one at the bottom.

The top path will have you fight Zelda, the right path will have Link, and the bottom has Ganondorf.

(Top path could have a Kirby stage next. Right path could have an Earthbound stage. Bottom path could have a Metroid stage.)

 

[SmashChu]

If I may add, taking one path may have you face character x, but taking another will have you face character y instead.

For example, imagine a Zelda stage similar to the Melee one in appearance with three paths-one leading up, one to the right, and one at the bottom.

The top path will have you fight Zelda, the right path will have Link, and the bottom has Ganondorf.

(Top path could have a Kirby stage next. Right path could have an Earthbound stage. Bottom path could have a Metroid stage.)

That's exactly what I was thinking. By taking different paths in a level or by completing a benchmark, you'll go to a different level (be it Kirby or Earthbound). And in levels like Zelda, you may have to fight different characters.

 

[Big-Cat]

There's a new game released recently on the XBLA called Chu's Dynasty. The developers (which consist of only three people) have said that the game's biggest influences were Street Fighter and Super Smash Bros. The game is only 240 points. It's nice to see that we're now starting to see original IPs take on the Smash style of play. Better watch out Nintendo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3w4S6JcSP4

That's the beta trailer. I'm about to download it myself.

 

[SmashChu]

There's a new game released recently on the XBLA called Chu's Dynasty. The developers (which consist of only three people) have said that the game's biggest influences were Street Fighter and Super Smash Bros. The game is only 240 points. It's nice to see that we're now starting to see original IPs take on the Smash style of play. Better watch out Nintendo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3w4S6JcSP4

That's the beta trailer. I'm about to download it myself.

Smash has many competitors, but few have come close to beating it out.

Looking at the trailer, I doubt Smash Brothers will have to worry. This game looks like what a competitive Smash Brothers player would make. Notice all the combos and otherwise bland stages. There isn't much to this game besides the fact it will be about 10 bucks.

 

[Big-Cat]

Why am I not surprised you responded like that? I don't know what it is with you and Toise, but not everyone likes the really crazy stages and items because they feel they can't get anything accomplished. Trust me, I've seen people complain about a win or loss because of pure, dumb luck that someone got an item. Heck, look at the blue shell in MKWii and how a lot of people hate it.

But knowing you, you'll just say those are hardcore gamers. What do you say about difficulty in games? Should they be stupid easy?

 

[ryuu seika]

not everyone likes the really crazy stages and items

I like crazy stages and I like crazy items.

Trust me, I've seen people complain about a win or loss because of pure, dumb luck that someone got an item. Heck, look at the blue shell in MKWii and how a lot of people hate it.

This is where the problem lies. Crazy stages are fun. Crazy luck based stages often aren't. With items it's the same.

Take Diddy Kong Racing for example. Several of the power ups (10 rockets, final boost, bubble, etc) are really good. Does this unbalance the game? No, no it doesn't. And do you know why? Two reasons: one, you have to work for the good items and two, they aren't random in placement or in what you get.
In Mario Kart on the other hand, you get random items and it's no harder to get a red shell than a green one. No harder to get a stack of mushrooms than just one. You don't have to do any etra work to get a lightning bolt, just get lucky. The problem here is that some items are WAY better than others and that only luck decides how good an item you get. Thus luck plays a major part in victory. And who's lucky for 16 races in a row?
That and they way they made those stupid spineys so hard to avoid.

As or "Chu's Dynasty", I'll reserve judgement untill I play it (which may be some time as I don't own an Xbox) but for now I'm not that impressed with the look and sound of it.

 

[Flame Hyenard]

If I remember correctly, Mario Kart Double Dash has the options to disable the items in multiplayers. Then again, this won't arrange your drifting problem, but at least it would be more skill based.

 

[ryuu seika]

Yes but why would I care about that? Multiplayer is just meant to be bit of a laugh, what's it matter if I win or lose? Single player and the inability to unlock things due to random and unforseeable loses is the real problem.

Note: this lack of caring for my multiplayer placement does not carry over to smash. Smash isn't mario kart in this respect.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Why am I not surprised you responded like that? I don't know what it is with you and Toise, but not everyone likes the really crazy stages and items because they feel they can't get anything accomplished. Trust me, I've seen people complain about a win or loss because of pure, dumb luck that someone got an item. Heck, look at the blue shell in MKWii and how a lot of people hate it.

When have I ever said more options are a bad thing or harped on playing with no items on simple stages?

Game looks awesome, by the way. Really hope it turns out good enough to go beyond XBLA (or more specifically, beyond 360 since I don't plan on getting one ever).