[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[ryuu seika]

While I do agree that the MKDD tracks are, in general, pretty linear and lack difficulty (the only one worse at that is MKWii, the Special Cup in that game is comparable with Mario Kart 64's Flower Cup), Mario Kart is usually not that obnoxious (except in MKWii).

The obnoxiousness stems from the completely unavoidable things that set you back 4 places and completely destroy your chances of winning the race. This happens in every Mario Kart game, although it's a lesser issue in multiplayer.

The courses being boring is a lesser issue in my view.

powersliding through those U-turns on Rainbow Road is NOT difficult, and not powersliding is a terrible idea in Mario Kart

Well explain to me then why I can make every single one of them when driving normally but fall off 90% when drifting? That's not even an exageration. Drifing sucks in DD.

even in Mario Kart 64, snaking was better than driving straight on a straightaway.

Snaking is cheatery and doesn't count. Plus I could never do it in Fzero and don't have a clue how in DD.

The graphics in DD were ok

Who cares. Graphics do not make a game.

but what really upset me was that they cut objects in the multiplayer mode, which means that the lifesavers hanging in Daisy Cruiser (during 1-P only) were pretty much useless, as the AI does not interact with them off screen, and they swing forward before they can even hit anyone, so if you're up to speed, you won't be hit by them.

They're still there in my version.

I'm also scared to find out why you think Palmon (the bipedal cactus digimon with a flower for hair) would be a good Smash character.

Mistype. Meant Patamon.

 

[DekuBoy]

Aaaand back to Smash Bros. What Other M representation (if any) do you guys think is most likely?

 

[Flame Hyenard]

Aaaand back to Smash Bros. What Other M representation (if any) do you guys think is most likely?

Really, I'm sure you don't remember him.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Has anyone played Golden Sun: Dark Dawn yet? Do the new protagonists virtually play the same as Isaac/Felix and the gang from the previous two games? I still would love to see Golden Sun repped in the next Smash Bros.

 

[UberMario]

The obnoxiousness stems from the completely unavoidable things that set you back 4 places

Super Mario Kart: All of the items (other than the Lightning and Boo) are completely avoidable by simply having a banana.

Mario Kart 64: Ride the wall, shells commit suicide. Lightning is pretty rare and the only places it can really screw you over are Wario Stadium, Royal Raceway, and DK's Jungle Parkway, and even then, you can just stop and you'll automatically be better off than the people that try to make the jump while tiny.

Mario Kart Super Circuit: Homing shells don't go over jumps, all items are strategic and lightning bolts are the rarest they ever have been in the series. Sure, the Boo slows down the leader, but at most you'll lose two positions to it, assuming you don't attempt to shake it off sooner.

Mario Kart Double Dash: Small karts can dodge spinies, all karts can dodge red shells, lightning is rare, and no other item is that threatening.

Mario Kart DS: Lightning is the only unavoidable item, you can dodge spiny shells and red shells can be blocked by the majority of items.

Mario Kart Wii: The only one where the "4 position loss from items" holds, POW Blocks, Spinies (without mushrooms, anyway), etc. are very annoying and unavoidable. Lightning bolts are also too common.

and completely destroy your chances of winning the race. This happens in every Mario Kart game, although it's a lesser issue in multiplayer.

That only applies to Mario Kart Wii, in every other game, items are either easily avoidable or have little affect on the character that gets hit.

Well explain to me then why I can make every single one of them when driving normally but fall off 90% when drifting? That's not even an exageration. Drifing sucks in DD.

Because you're going slower when you are not power sliding:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYkJnkYu84c&feature=related

Snaking is cheatery and doesn't count.

Snaking? Cheating? lol

It's possible in Mario Kart 64, Mario Kart: Super Circuit, Maro Kart Double Dash, Mario Kart DS, AND Mario Kart Wii (it'd be more noticable if the powerslide system wasn't dumbed down and bikes didn't outclass them in every field except weight). How is it cheating?

Mario Kart DS isn't even where snaking is at it's easiest, it just became more noticable because people could play hundreds of others online.

Plus I could never do it in Fzero and don't have a clue how in DD

I hate when people argue that it's cheating if they can't do it, even if it's a perfectly legitimate, advanced technique. >_<

Who cares. Graphics do not make a game.

Agreed.

They're still there in my version.

Are you sure? Whenever I had played 2-P Grand Prix, they were never there, then again, that might be there during VS races.


Speaking of Mario Kart, it'd be awesome if "Rainbow Road" could be a stage in the next smash bros, it could operate similarly to how Mute City works, but using MKDS' RR. (Complete with battling on top of the loop-de-loop).

 

[Claire Diviner]

@Hyenard: Anthony would be interesting, but I also would think Adam and Ridley may have a bigger shot at a Smash appearance than him... even though Anthony's a cool character, in my opinion. XD

 

[DekuBoy]

I would like to see Anthony, but I would like to see him in at least one more game first.

 

[SmashChu]

Since Flame Hyenard brought it up, what do people think of Anthony (inb4 lol, only Ridley)? He seems like he could be interesting, but Other M is generally considered a bad game. Would people actually want him?

 

[ryuu seika]

Mario Kart Double Dash: Small karts can dodge spinies, all karts can dodge red shells, lightning is rare, and no other item is that threatening.

Boboms are viscious when they hit and that crazy dodge trick seems cheaty to me. I'd still do it if I could though.

Because you're going slower when you are not power sliding

Hardly if you actually use a decently light weight vehicle.

Snaking? Cheating? lol

...

I hate when people argue that it's cheating if they can't do it, even if it's a perfectly legitimate, advanced technique. >_<

I don't see the point in listening to SSB players on such matters. Every abuse of game physics is deemed a "legitimate advanced technique". And then you mock me, saying I can't wave dash when I can, I just don't want to.

Are you sure? Whenever I had played 2-P Grand Prix, they were never there, then again, that might be there during VS races.

Are you sure because if I can turn off the ability of the guy in second to repeatedly shunt freezies into me that'd be a great help.

Speaking of Mario Kart, it'd be awesome if "Rainbow Road" could be a stage in the next smash bros, it could operate similarly to how Mute City works, but using MKDS' RR. (Complete with battling on top of the loop-de-loop).

As long as it replaces that appalling MK stage in Brawl and Diddy Kong Racing doesn't get overlooked this time. If they do that then I'm all for Rainbow Road.

 

[UberMario]

Boboms are viscious when they hit and that crazy dodge trick seems cheaty to me. I'd still do it if I could though.

Bob-ombs are laughably easiy to beat, you either avoid where they land (as they make a distinctive whistle as they fly through the air), or don't tailgate.

Hardly if you actually use a decently light weight vehicle.

That still doesn't stop it from being inefficient in comparison.

I don't see the point in listening to SSB players on such matters. Every abuse of game physics is deemed a "legitimate advanced technique". And then you mock me, saying I can't wave dash when I can, I just don't want to.

Wavedashing is a physics exploit, snaking is using the physics the regular way, and when did I even say that you can't wavedash? >_> Snaking IS an advanced tech, because it takes precise timing to become a great snaker, and by the way, I found out about snaking by myself before Mario Kart Ds came out OR I knew about SSB wavedashing, so I don't understand what the "SSB player" jab was about.

Are you sure because if I can turn off the ability of the guy in second to repeatedly shunt freezies into me that'd be a great help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgB6iqjBdwc&#t=0m50s

Yes, the lifesavers on Daisy Cruiser, all firebals (other than the one the Bowser robot emits), most decorations, falling stars, rolling item boxes, and several other obstacles are removed in 2-P GP, with things such as the tables on DC and the thwomps at BC being reduced in amount. The freezies are still there, but if you're losing ground to someone that is also getting harmed by the freezies at the same rate that you are, well . . . . . .

 

[Flame Hyenard]

Megaman's moveset

------------------------------

Smashs

SideSmash : Super Arm (Megaman 1).

Strong punch which, when fully charged, almost tops Ike's FSmash in terms on knockback and damage. However, the start-up lag and ending lag are about 0.35 seconds each. Behold the strength of Gutsman('s arse) !

DownSmash : Tornado Hold (Megaman 8).

When fully charged, the tornado goes slightly far less than Fox's shot from his Blaster. The knockback is also lower than the tornados from Hyrule in SSB64 when fully charged (however, the damage inflicted increases).

UpSmash : Air Shooter (Megaman 2).

Releases 3 tornadoes forward, then goes upward. The more the player charges the Smash, the further the tornadoes goes. However, regardless of how uncharged or fully charged the Smash is, the damage and knockback remains the same. The tornadoes inflicts enough hit-stun to be able to hit an opponent at least 2 or 3 times in a row.

------------------------------

Specials

Neutral B : Mega Buster.

Like in the many fighting games "[insert franchise here] vs Capcom", Megaman can charge the Buster when holding the B Button, while moving or not. The damage caused when fully charged are a bit weaker than Samus' fully charged neutral B, but the knockback is stronger.

Side B : Rebound Striker (Megaman 10).

The projectile bounces a lot, but the knockback, damage caused and range decreases over time. When motionless, can be picked up by any fighter and thrown again. 2 Rebound Strikers can be on-screen at the same time.

Up B : I have some hesitations...

I struggle between the Jet Adapter (from Megaman 6) or the Wire Adapter (from Megaman 4). The former could make Megaman travel 1.5x times further than Squirtle's recovery, while the latter is a tether recovery move. We could also go for Beat (in Megaman 7, the bird saves you from falling into a pit). Beat would act like Snake's Cypher, but instead of being able to attack again, the end of the recovery would put Megaman in a helpless state.

Down B : Danger Wrap (Megaman 7).

If done like a Smash move, the Danger Wrap will be put on the ground, (or if used in the air, the bomb falls) which harms anyone but Megaman on contact (too bad for the C4-like recovery trick ). Otherwise, Megaman will shoot a bubble with a bomb encased in it upward. If the bubble hits an opponent, the bomb will explode on contact.

------------------------------

Dash Attack and Grab move

Dash Attack : Break Dash (Megaman V on the Gameboy) or the Charge Kick (Megaman 5 on the NES).

The former does more damages and knockback, while the latter can trip the opponent and can be used to dodge some projectiles. I can't decide which is better.

Grab move : Thunder Claw (Megaman 8) or normal grab.

------------------------------

Air Attacks

N-Air : Top Spin (Megaman 3).

Hits multiple times, and has a set amount of damages.

F-Air : Slash Claw (Megaman 7).

Cause more damages at close range. High knockback.

B-Air :



U-Air :

D-Air : Flame Sword (Megaman 8).

Struck the opponent with a sword engulfed in flames. Spikes on the upper-half of the sword.

------------------------------

Tilts

F-Tilt : Slash Claw (Megaman 7).

Same as above. When used downward, the attack has a few chances to trip the opponent.

U-Tilt :

D-Tilt : Solar Blaze (Megaman 10).

It splits apart and launches firebombs to the left and right. The distance traveled by each firebomb are 2/3 of Kirby's Up-B wave's travel distance. The firebombs follow the structure of the field.

------------------------------

Final Smash (if they decide to re-include it)

Lightning Bolt (Megaman & Bass).

Megaman will hover in the air and send down a rain of energy bolts in random spots. The Final Smash lasts for 5-6 seconds (not including the start-up), and the damage and knockback inflicted by each bolt increases by 7% each second. Initial damage caused goes from 6 to 8%.

------------------------------

If anyone has any idea for U-Tilt, U-Air and B-Air, let me know. Thanks in advance ​

 

[Landry]

Mario Kart is downright obnoxious and DD is the worst offender. It had 4 good tracks, one of which felt like a rip off of Diddy Kong Racing (Dino Dino Jungle) and another two were reccuring stages (Bowser's Castle and Rainbow Road). I loved Rainbow Road but it wasn't Rainbow Ride and it wasn't enough to make up for the rest of that appalling game. Sliding worked so badly that it was easier to just not use it (drift turning on RR got you off the edge rather than helping you stay on) andI don't know what exactly you mean by "smoothly" but I certainly wouldn't descibe it like that.
I will admit though, that switching was neat.

Since we're not really on topic I'm not going to go into to much depth but I just want to point out the the sliding did work, and it made the game. Look up some DD time trials, that's what the game was all about. Dino Dino has always reminded of me of Diddy Kong too, but I don't consider that too be one of the best tracks. Rainbow Road wasn't even that good for DD, but Bowser's was the best. Daisy Cruiser and Peach Beach were both really good and Wario Colosseum along with Waluigi Stadium are quite interesting. But yes, there were some pretty uninteresting tracks, but overall the mechanics were my favorite of any Mario Kart game (yes, I've played them all...). I guess it's all opinion anyway, but to me DD raced better than any of the others.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Has anyone played Golden Sun: Dark Dawn yet? Do the new protagonists virtually play the same as Isaac/Felix and the gang from the previous two games? I still would love to see Golden Sun repped in the next Smash Bros.

I had to go to a Golden Sun wiki to find this out (I'll probably never play the games), but apparently the main cast plays exactly the same as the other GS characters. So Matthew and Isaac are identical.

And I don't generally care for GS characters, but I fully support the inclusion of the adult version of Isaac:

And that's no spoiler folks, he's at the start of the game apparently.

 

[Big-Cat]

UberMario, play Snowboard Kids, at least the first one. That's how you truly avoid items.

Since Flame Hyenard brought it up, what do people think of Anthony (inb4 lol, only Ridley)? He seems like he could be interesting, but Other M is generally considered a bad game. Would people actually want him?

Despite the mixed reception for Other M, Anthony seems to be the one thing universally well received. I say he has a chance on that alone and that popularity could very well lead to him becoming a recurring character in the Metroid series.

 

[Fawfulcopter]

So, I got this mode idea.
It's like Adventure mode from Melee, but it's also different.

For one thing, it's character-specific, so each character has their own unique experience.

OK, so the first level would be a sidescrolling level based off of your character's games, similarly to how the first level of adventure mode is the Mushroom Kingdom.

Level 2 would be a fight against a character-specific foe. For Mario it's Bowser, for Link it's Ganondorf, and each matchup fights each other.

Level 3 would be a level based on another universe in SSB, chosen depending on your character. For example, Ness can go to Mario's level 1 for his level 3.

Level 4 would be a fight against a character from that universe, chosen randomly.

Level 5 would be a minigame-type thing based on one of a few universes. There could be a StarFox Shmup bit, an F-Zero Race bit, a series of Wario Ware microgames, or even an RPG sequence, among others. This is chosen at random.

Level 6 would be a fight against 3 at the most random members of their franchise. Franchises with only one character fight a mirror match. Depending on number of foes, the level of foes increases(Fight against 3 level 4s, 2 level 5s or 1 level 6).

Level 7 would be yet another sidescrolling bit, this one chosen at complete random.

Level 8 would be a fight against 3 random foes, and they can fight each other too.

Level 9 will be a dark, ominous sidescrolling sequence based on your game again. For Mario you're playing Bowser's Castle, for Link you're climbing Ganon's Tower, for Ness you're traveling up the road that leads to Giygas. There will be no enemies here.

Level 10 will be a boss battle against a boss, like the ones in the SSE, for your character. Playing as Mario, you fight Petey Piranha. Luigi, King Boo. Kirby, Dark Matter. Metaknight, Galact Knight, etc. Bowser you fight...Dark Bowser from Mario & Luigi 3, or maybe just Blizzard Midbus? Each character will have their own boss, and it will be epic. Each boss from the SSE can be reutilized here, perhaps excepting Duon and Galleom in favor of series-specific bosses.

Level 11 will be a secret level, done by completing the mode on Hard or higher, without using Continues. This mode is a boss fight with Tabuu. This can be likened to fighting Giga Bowser in Melee's Adventure Mode.

What do you guys think? If you like it, I MIGHT(Repeat, MIGHT) put up a list of bosses for the characters on my roster later.

 

[UberMario]

So, KumaOso, I was looking at your idea for Ness' PK Thunder and I found it interesting, for the weaker "Fire Fox" version, the PK Thunder could automatically loop around perpendicular to the playing field [through the background] to prevent clearance problems from being an issue.

 

[KingMarth]

I had to go to a Golden Sun wiki to find this out (I'll probably never play the games), but apparently the main cast plays exactly the same as the other GS characters. So Matthew and Isaac are identical.

And I don't generally care for GS characters, but I fully support the inclusion of the adult version of Isaac:

And that's no spoiler folks, he's at the start of the game apparently.

Matthew basically is Isaac. Though he learns quake sphere earlier.

I vote Isaac or Matthew, and then Saturos or Alex.

I have some ideas for the Isaac/Matthew character
Movement speed similar to Roy's

Move-set:
Neutral A combo- punch with sword hand, two horizontal slashes
Ftilt- Bottom to Top slash, medium strength
Utilt- Short sword swipe starting at back of the head towards front, doesn't hit forward much
Dtilt- quick swipe downwards, can trip
Dash Attack- Jump Slash animation from Golden Sun, good range

Fsmash- Double hit, quick sword slash, Megiddo Meteor hits quickly afterwards. Best kill Move
Dsmash- Swings powerfully in front, Earth rises strongly behind at the same time for horizontal knockback
USmash- Not sure on this one, throws small boulder upwards that disappears quickly?

Nair- Full body swing like Ike's Nair
Fair- Stab Forward, fast little landing lag, small hitbox
Uair- Spin slash, like Marth's Uair
Bair- Powerful elbow backwards, same effect as Falcon Knee, small hitbox
Dair- Fast Kick downwards, Meteor smashes, moderate landing lag

Neutral B- Djinn Storm -Two kinds, First charges up a collection of 5 Djinn that encircle the character which also increase strength and knockback and stays with character until death or unleash of 2nd part. Fairly weak without this. Second charges up a sword range hit that hits with all 5 djinn and then a very strong hit.
Side B-Quake Sphere- sends a earthquake to damage and knock opponent into air. Extremely low knockback scaling with a base knockback slightly less than DK's DownB. Can hit airbourne opponents if they are low to ground. The earthquake travels 1/3 the length of FD, has an area of effect similar to DK's ground B. Travels fairly fast and has a short duration
Up B- Clay Spire-Two Earthen Spires drop very close to each other slightly in front and above the character, which he quickly jumps off of. Will hit the area to the front and slightly below him for a small amount of damage. Goes helpless after use
Down B- Mother Gaia- Essentially DK's Down B, but with Rocks rising out of the ground around Isaac and dealing less knockback. Deals more damage than Ground Pound, can't kill.

Grab- Reasonable grab distance
Pummel- Punches opponent with sword guard
Fthrow- Uses the move psynergy to throw opponent forward
Bthrow- Same as Fthrow, except backwards
Uthrow- Tosses opponent upwards with Move
Dthrow- Slams opponent into the ground with Move and sinks them into the ground like DK's headbutt but for less time

Any thoughts? Ideas for changes? I think if he had physics similar to Roy's dash speed, walk speed, air speed, etc he would be a good character. Let me know what you think

 

[Fawfulcopter]

I'd give Isaac's B move something better, like...Maybe make his B move Spire and his Up B Growth or something, and a bunch of thorny plants grow underneath him and he's boosted up or something?
Also, Odyssey for Final Smash.

I think the Djinni should be items, that would work like the Dragoon Parts, and you can activate them anytime, with any number, ranging from one to four Djinn. Each number give you another level of summon, just like in Golden Sun. All 4 kinds of Djinn can appear, but no two types can appear at once.

 

[KingMarth]

Hm...maybe the neutral b sword hit also heals him a little? (Sap) or stuns the opponent for a brief second? and if not that, then def either Ragnarök, odyssey or the spire growth variation. I just think the final smash is without a doubt either Judgment or Catastrophe

 

[Fawfulcopter]

Hm...maybe the neutral b sword hit also heals him a little? (Sap) or stuns the opponent for a brief second? and if not that, then def either Ragnarök, odyssey or the spire growth variation. I just think the final smash is without a doubt either Judgment or Catastrophe

Nonono, Odyssey is more powerful than Judgement, Odyssey is Final Smash. Judgement is a Djinni summon, and would happen via the Djinni Item.

 

[KingMarth]

I do like the idea of Djinni items, i just think the djinn need to be part of Isaac's moveset...theyre an enormous part of the game. and odyssey is totally not more powerful haha its a single target move, judgment is an all target. much more appropriate and badass for a final smash haha

 

[ryuu seika]

Bob-ombs are laughably easiy to beat, you either avoid where they land (as they make a distinctive whistle as they fly through the air), or don't tailgate.

Hence the "if they hit".

That still doesn't stop it from being inefficient in comparison.

Actually, it does. Drifting and falling off takes more time than not drifting and making the turn.

Wavedashing is a physics exploit, snaking is using the physics the regular way, and when did I even say that you can't wavedash?

Snaking is not an intended feature in most racing games and I was using "you" in the general sense. SSB players like to assume that me complaining about wavedashing (and by extension, snaking) means I can't do it. They don't seem to understand that physics abuse seems wrong to me.

>_> Snaking IS an advanced tech, because it takes precise timing to become a great snaker, and by the way, I found out about snaking by myself before Mario Kart Ds came out OR I knew about SSB wavedashing, so I don't understand what the "SSB player" jab was about.

The whole "SSB player" issue is as mentioned above. Any physics abuse is simply dubbed a "ligitimate advanced technique" and spammed the hell out of to gain an advantage in tournament play. Such is the SSB player mentality.

The freezies are still there, but if you're losing ground to someone that is also getting harmed by the freezies at the same rate that you are, well . . . . . .

Maybe it's the guy in 3rd that's doing it to me or maybe it's the fact that I lose my super mushroom. I don't know what it is but I repeatedly lose due to either people shunting me into freezies or people shunting them into the back of me. In both cases, I am totally helpless to avoid it.

Daisy Cruiser and Peach Beach were both really good and Wario Colosseum along with Waluigi Stadium are quite interesting. But yes, there were some pretty uninteresting tracks, but overall the mechanics were my favorite of any Mario Kart game (yes, I've played them all...). I guess it's all opinion anyway, but to me DD raced better than any of the others.

Peach Beach would be the fourth of the ones I actually considered good. The others mentioned were all either bland or annoying IMO.

 

[Fawfulcopter]

Alrighty.
Let's have some Color change ideas!
I'll go ahead and say a recolor of Bowser to look like Midbus, and give Bowser Junior the color sets of all 3 Koopa Kids from Mario Party, as well as Shadow Bowser Jr, where he looks all painty and gooey. Also give Little Mac all of his different color schemes, as well as a color change based off of his appearance in Super Punch Out!!.

 

[UberMario]

I'd prefer young Isaac over Matthew in SSB, but I wouldn't mind if they chose the latter.

Hence the "if they hit".

If you get hit by them, you deserve the consequences, it's like getting hit by a Falcon Punch in 1-vs-1 play, with Sonic, offline.

Actually, it does. Drifting and falling off takes more time than not drifting and making the turn.

That's an extremely, extremely poor argument, a good Mario Kartist should never have to worry about falling off while drifting, especially in Double Dash. Heck, I don't have a problem powersliding over Dino Dino Jungles narrow bridge with the huge Golden Kart. If you seriously can't drift without falling off on any one of the stages, then you don't stand a chance playing against most people.

Snaking is not an intended feature in most racing games

Because most games don't have the powersliding-mini-turbo tech orchestrated in the same way? >_>

and I was using "you" in the general sense. SSB players like to assume that me complaining about wavedashing (and by extension, snaking) means I can't do it. They don't seem to understand that physics abuse seems wrong to me.

It's NOT physics abuse, it's just common sense, if turning and powersliding makes you go faster, than turning and powersliding all of the time makes a lot of sense, sliding across the ground makes no sense whatsoever, and if you think that it's abuse, the joke's on you. Several support ghosts in Mario Kart Double Dash and Mario Kart DS employ snaking. Want proof?

Baby Park SG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xl90Aytxnw The red ghost is the staff ghost in the carriage, the player and his ghost are driving the Barrel Train.
Waluigi Stadium http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-cf_pZL1uk&#t=0m26s The Wario staff ghost is snaking in the background down the pipe-laiden straightaway

Does the fact that some of the programmers snake change your stance on snaking?

BTW, the hopping tech (the one where you repeatedly hop on steep slopes, such as the ones on Airship Fortress in MKDS) are also done by the staff ghosts.

The whole "SSB player" issue is as mentioned above. Any physics abuse is simply dubbed a "ligitimate advanced technique" and spammed the hell out of to gain an advantage in tournament play. Such is the SSB player mentality.

Read the above to see that snaking is at least 60% intentional (at least in DD and DS) and why it is different from wavedashing.

Maybe it's the guy in 3rd that's doing it to me or maybe it's the fact that I lose my super mushroom. I don't know what it is but I repeatedly lose due to either people shunting me into freezies or people shunting them into the back of me. In both cases, I am totally helpless to avoid it.

A. If you're talking about the AI, 3rd place shouldn't even be a factor
B. The AI always hit the last freezie, and they move in a straight line, so they are easy to avoid
C. If you're totally helpless to an obstacle that harms you less than a banana and you can't avoid it when it moves in a straight line, then you'd be totally destroyed by the harder Mario Karts such as Super Mario Kart and Mario Kart: Super Circuit.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

In an effort to end a ******** Mario Kart conversation and to have this discussion in a place that isn't overwhelmingly biased in favor of Melee, I present:

Masahiro Sakurai Reflects on Super Smash Bros. Melee

"There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."


I'm gonna say "I called it/told ya so/etc." and hope you guys have a discussion going for tomorrow.

 

[Big-Cat]

I was surprised to see you post outside of this thread, Toise. I'll repost what I said on SRK.

I've read some interviews with him in the past, and he is too damn concerned about beginners. From one perspective, you can assume that he's all about the money by going for the lowest common denominator.

On a surface level, I always thought Melee to be fine for anyone. I remember my friends and neighbors would play this game and we loved it and no one had a truly difficult time learning it. The best thing about Melee, even though I never played competitively, was that you were able to go deeper into the game and enjoy yourself a different game. Your favorite Nintendo characters, easy to learn basic controls, and the option to play a more technical game? This is a perfect package for everyone. Hell, some friends of mine will say that Melee was the better game because it was a faster, more exciting game than Brawl.

And I absolutely disagree with him not being preoccupied with gameplay and balance details. If you don't try to perfect those, then you've got yourself the typical licensed game. I could always goes back to Melee, but before I finally quit Brawl, it was a chore to just turn on the Wii to play it, and I'd only play it for a few CPU matches then quit.

IMO, Sakurai did an amazing job with Melee, but he went against his creed of accessibility on some things and he didn't really try to break players in beyond the How to Play video. I think part of the reason he doesn't want to do another Melee is because of the time and precision put into it. If I were him, I wouldn't do more Smash Bros. games period. It would obviously be not in me to do something like that again. I'd give the helm to someone who'd be more than willing to put the time into that (and probably make a better game).

 

[ryuu seika]

If you get hit by them, you deserve the consequences, it's like getting hit by a Falcon Punch in 1-vs-1 play, with Sonic, offline.

Except that Falcon Punches don't come out of yoshi eggs.

That's an extremely, extremely poor argument, a good Mario Kartist should never have to worry about falling off while drifting, especially in Double Dash.

And I'm saying I don't get how that's possible. My Kart has a much wider turning circle when drifting than when turning normally, to the extent that drifting seems like suicide to me.

Heck, I don't have a problem powersliding over Dino Dino Jungles narrow bridge with the huge Golden Kart. If you seriously can't drift without falling off on any one of the stages, then you don't stand a chance playing against most people.

Why the hell would you drift there anyway?

No, I seriously can't drift in any controlable fashion. Perhaps if I could and overuse it like you clearly do it wouldn't matter when I got blue shelled 3 times in one race. I play my way though and my way has got me though much better and tougher games than that piece of crap.

Because most games don't have the powersliding-mini-turbo tech orchestrated in the same way? >_>.

Ok, so this maybe game is designed for snaking. So what, that's only one more reason for me to hate the game.

It's NOT physics abuse, it's just common sense, if turning and powersliding makes you go faster, than turning and powersliding all of the time makes a lot of sense

But drifting (even with the mini boost) doesn't seem to make me any faster. That's what I don't get. If the drift boost only makes up for the speed lost by not going straight (which seems to be the case for me) then why would I want to drift?

Constant turning on the straight is never common sense.

Several support ghosts in Mario Kart Double Dash and Mario Kart DS employ snaking.

This only serves to prove that this one game series was designed for snaking. It says nothing for the normal use of drifting and certiny doesn't make snaking any more appealing.

Does the fact that some of the programmers snake change your stance on snaking?.

No it does not.

BTW, the hopping tech (the one where you repeatedly hop on steep slopes, such as the ones on Airship Fortress in MKDS) are also done by the staff ghosts..

I don't know what "tech" you are refering to but hopping up hills seems an obvious thing to me that isn't hugely unrealistic.

Read the above to see that snaking is at least 60% intentional (at least in DD and DS) and why it is different from wavedashing.

Sure, snaking in MK is intentional but I still don't agree with it. Snaking in other games is not.

If you're totally helpless to an obstacle that harms you less than a banana and you can't avoid it when it moves in a straight line, then you'd be totally destroyed by the harder Mario Karts such as Super Mario Kart and Mario Kart: Super Circuit.

How the hell is freezing less bad than a banana? I'm kept motionless temporarily, lose my items, slowed don when I start up again and even end up facing the wrong direction. That's worse than a banana.

And how you can expect me to dodge things I can't see and that I don't recieve warnings for (because they're not conventional items) I don't know.

"There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

I'm gonna say "I called it/told ya so/etc." and hope you guys have a discussion going for tomorrow.

This is hardly a suprise and, as someone who wasn't used to fighting games and didn't really know what to expect from Smash, I'd say I can agree that Melee was downright hard. This, however, was a large chunk of what gave it depth. The thing is, anyone could pick up Melee and play it on a casual level if they wanted to do so. Becoming one of the elite top notch tournament players, that was where the real challenge was.
The ability to play the game at a casual level without too much difficulty (albeit too much for me to play as anyone with less than 6 jumps at the start) while still having a serious challenge for those who sought such a thing was what made Melee.

Yes, the next game could stand to be toned down from Melee a little but not to the level that Brawl was. Brawl just felt empty. Any difficulty removed should not simplify the game to that extent.

I like to thing of myself not as a Melee fanatic but as an anti-Brawl fanatic.

 

[UberMario]

. . . . . . .

Ryuu, I'm just going to take the MK conversation to the PM-boxes, because this is getting ridiculously off-topic and is starting to go around in circles.

And as I said over on the Melee boards, I didn't find Melee to be "too difficult" at all.

 

[DekuBoy]

I know it would never happen, but I would love for Retro Studios to try their hands at a Smash Bros. They have a love for Nintendo giving new life to two classic series, their visual artistry is amazing and they really put loads of work into the final product.

And I haven't even gotten to play DKCR yet.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I was surprised to see you post outside of this thread, Toise. I'll repost what I said on SRK.

I've made posts elsewhere on SmashBoards before yesterday, you know. It's just really rare given my opinion of this site in general.

Anyway, I'll post what I had from yesterday:

[In response to someone mentioning Melee's higher adoption rate]
Super Mario Sunshine sold about 5.50 million (25% ish).
Super Mario Galaxy sold about 8.84 million (11% ish).
There's more to adoption rates than X being bigger than Y.


Generally speaking, I think people tend to make two mistakes: one is overestimating Melee's accessibility towards non-gamers; the other is assuming that the average player doesn't think Melee and Brawl are too similar outside of content.

More stuff I'm adding:

- Sakurai specifically wants people who never play games to give Smash a shot, and even with Brawl he's not having as much success as I assume he wants (though it's clearly better than Melee in that regard).

- I feel like this is noteworthy given its applicability. Similarly, he says "don't get obsessed with smoothing out little gameplay/balance details" and a lot of arguments made by the competitive crowd do exactly that.

- This is good too. There's a lot of irrationality coming from some anti-Brawl people in terms of comprehending Sakurai and/or his statements. I don't want to chalk it up to those people living in a bubble in regards to the reality of gaming, but that's pretty much the problem here.

- I don't treat this as proof that new Smash Bros. games are incapable of pleasing the competitive scene on a level that Melee did, but it's pretty clear that it'll do so in its own way. And if that doesn't happen, well, sorry guys. There are plenty of games out there to scratch your competitive itch though.

 

[Flame Hyenard]

------------------------------

Smashs

SideSmash : Super Arm (Megaman 1).

Strong punch which, when fully charged, almost tops Ike's FSmash in terms on knockback and damage. However, the start-up lag and ending lag are about 0.35 seconds each. Behold the strength of Gutsman('s arse) !

DownSmash : Tornado Hold (Megaman 8).

When fully charged, the tornado goes slightly far less than Fox's shot from his Blaster. The knockback is also lower than the tornados from Hyrule in SSB64 when fully charged (however, the damage inflicted increases).

UpSmash : Air Shooter (Megaman 2).

Releases 3 tornadoes forward, then goes upward. The more the player charges the Smash, the further the tornadoes goes. However, regardless of how uncharged or fully charged the Smash is, the damage and knockback remains the same. The tornadoes inflicts enough hit-stun to be able to hit an opponent at least 2 or 3 times in a row.

------------------------------

Specials

Neutral B : Mega Buster.

Like in the many fighting games "[insert franchise here] vs Capcom", Megaman can charge the Buster when holding the B Button, while moving or not. The damage caused when fully charged are a bit weaker than Samus' fully charged neutral B, but the knockback is stronger.

Side B : Rebound Striker (Megaman 10).

The projectile bounces a lot, but the knockback, damage caused and range decreases over time. When motionless, can be picked up by any fighter and thrown again. 2 Rebound Strikers can be on-screen at the same time.

Up B : I have some hesitations...

I struggle between the Jet Adapter (from Megaman 6) or the Wire Adapter (from Megaman 4). The former could make Megaman travel 1.5x times further than Squirtle's recovery, while the latter is a tether recovery move. We could also go for Beat (in Megaman 7, the bird saves you from falling into a pit). Beat would act like Snake's Cypher, but instead of being able to attack again, the end of the recovery would put Megaman in a helpless state.

Down B : Danger Wrap (Megaman 7).

If done like a Smash move, the Danger Wrap will be put on the ground, (or if used in the air, the bomb falls) which harms anyone but Megaman on contact (too bad for the C4-like recovery trick ). Otherwise, Megaman will shoot a bubble with a bomb encased in it upward. If the bubble hits an opponent, the bomb will explode on contact.

------------------------------

Dash Attack and Grab move

Dash Attack : Break Dash (Megaman V on the Gameboy) or the Charge Kick (Megaman 5 on the NES).

The former does more damages and knockback, while the latter can trip the opponent and can be used to dodge some projectiles. I can't decide which is better.

Grab move : Thunder Claw (Megaman 8) or normal grab.

------------------------------

Air Attacks

N-Air : Top Spin (Megaman 3).

Hits multiple times, and has a set amount of damages.

F-Air : Slash Claw (Megaman 7).

Cause more damages at close range. High knockback.

B-Air :



U-Air :

D-Air : Flame Sword (Megaman 8).

Struck the opponent with a sword engulfed in flames. Spikes on the upper-half of the sword.

------------------------------

Tilts

F-Tilt : Slash Claw (Megaman 7).

Same as above. When used downward, the attack has a few chances to trip the opponent.

U-Tilt :

D-Tilt : Solar Blaze (Megaman 10).

It splits apart and launches firebombs to the left and right. The distance traveled by each firebomb are 2/3 of Kirby's Up-B wave's travel distance. The firebombs follow the structure of the field.

------------------------------

Final Smash (if they decide to re-include it)

Lightning Bolt (Megaman & Bass).

Megaman will hover in the air and send down a rain of energy bolts in random spots. The Final Smash lasts for 5-6 seconds (not including the start-up), and the damage and knockback inflicted by each bolt increases by 7% each second. Initial damage caused goes from 6 to 8%.

------------------------------

If anyone has any idea for U-Tilt, U-Air and B-Air, let me know. Thanks in advance ​

I know I might become redundant with this, but no one has even payed attention to this so I'm putting this up again.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Not to be a ****, but there's a reason people didn't pay attention to it. Yeah, it sucks to be ignored, but it happens.

 

[Flame Hyenard]

I'm not worried about myself being ignored, I'm more worried about the proposed moveset being ignored.

But yeah, things like that always happen someday. Plus, I wanted to "break" the Mario Kart conversation, but you and Kuma already did it

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Well they kinda go hand-in-hand, you know? It's not like good ideas (or seemingly good ideas) haven't been sent to die here before.

And technically me and Kuma did squat, you should thank UberMario for being cool enough to take it to PMs.


edit: I'm trying to look at your moveset, but without a fresh memory of how each move worked, it's kinda vague. Pictures would be cool if you can find a way to incorporate them in without expanding the post length at all.

 

[Moogi]

Agreed with Toise. If you could find a way to incorporate images it'd be much better. Also, I would've suggested posting the set in MYM, but

1. MYM 8 is over, last I checked, and
2. It's a competition.

As long as you don't stretch the entire page with your post/Wall O' Text, I think it'd be alright to post the finished set here.

Sooo.... *tries to think of new topic*

 

[Rychu]

So, How about that SSB4 topic, huh? wonder where that went....

 

[UberMario]

So, how about a generic item that behaves like a sack of marbles? A character could grab and throw it, releasing tiny balls (with the smash logo) on the ground. These would make characters lose traction as they pass by, be incapable of stopping until they jump or get over them (including the person that threw them), and be one of the few ways to trip by yourself. (As random tripping would be gone)

 

[SmashChu]

Not to be a ****, but there's a reason people didn't pay attention to it. Yeah, it sucks to be ignored, but it happens.

I saw the post in the Sakurai thread. It was well said.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

One of the biggest problems I have with SmashBoards is how quickly the mods are to close a topic even if it's a decent discussion/question. I'd post in the Melee boards thread but it's like some crazy person's cult.

 

[Big-Cat]

How is it like a cult?

Anyway, I'll respond to your post later. I didn't forget it.