[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[ryuu seika]

If Megaman is done well he could be a great character but after Sonic I'm not so sure he will be and the chances of him getting copy abilities seems slim as, not only are they that big a part of his character but Sakurai could see it as taking away from Kirby's unique gameplay, which he obviously wouldn't want.

 

[UberMario]

If the physics in SSB4 are similar to any of the existing three games, I hope it's most similar to SSB64's. Melee's was too heavy (you can see this quite well now with players like Hungrybox and Mango out there, Jigglypuff will probably be higher than FOX in the next BBR Melee list, he/she's that good due to his/her floatiness), and Brawl didn't have enough hitstun for most of the attacks. I'm not sure how powerful I'd want to see DI power, but it'd probably be better if it resulted in consistent <100% KOs like it used to. (Not that surviving longer is a bad thing, it just lengthens out a match)

 

[Arcadenik]

If Megaman is done well he could be a great character but after Sonic I'm not so sure he will be and the chances of him getting copy abilities seems slim as, not only are they that big a part of his character but Sakurai could see it as taking away from Kirby's unique gameplay, which he obviously wouldn't want.

Oh, yes... Sakurai obviously doesn't want characters to have similar gameplay. That's why he added Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Falco, Young Link, Pichu, Roy, Toon Link, Wolf, and Lucas.

 

[ryuu seika]

Oh, yes... Sakurai obviously doesn't want characters to have similar gameplay. That's why he added Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Falco, Young Link, Pichu, Roy, Toon Link, Wolf, and Lucas.

I don't think you get the point. This is Kirby we're talking about. Kirby is his character, those are not.

 

[Fawfulcopter]

So, I'm sure that this idea has been juggled around before, but what if SSB4 was on the 3DS, and featured mostly Handheld-only characters, like Isaac and Professor Layton, and it was followed by a SSB4 on the next home console, featuring mostly console-exclusive characters, like Mii and Little Mac?

I've already got a roster idea, but it's still a WIP, so judge based on that.
45 characters, no guest characters, limit of 4 characters per franchise(For now...Next Console Smash will probably add more...). 9 rows of 5, and go!
Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi(Mario series, Yoshi series)
Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Wario, Captain Falcon, Samurai Goroh(Donkey Kong series, Wario series, F-Zero series)
Link, Zelda/Sheik, Ganondorf, Toon Link, Tingle(Legend of Zelda series, Tingle series)
Samus/Zero Suit Samus, Ridley, Fox, Krystal, Wolf(Metroid series, StarFox series)
Kirby, Metaknight, King Dedede, Starfy, Ray MK II(Kirby series, Starfy series, Custom Robo series)
Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Blaziken, Zoroark, Isaac(Pokemon series, Golden Sun series)
Marth, Roy, Eirika, Professor Layton, Andy(Fire Emblem series, Layton series, Advance Wars series)
Ness, Lucas, Masked Man, Villager, Jill(Mother series, Animal Crossing series, Drill Dozer series)
Pit, Mr. Game & Watch, Muddy Mole, Alice, Nester(Kid Icarus series, Game & Watch series, Mole Mania series, Balloon Kid series, Nintendo Power/FUNKEH BOWLING YEEEAH).

However, I'm not really sure about Nester, Andy or Jill Dozer-if anybody's got any ideas for various characters, or for a Game Boy mascot, I can definitely consider them.
Also, I removed some characters because they're not really relevant to handhelds(Ice Climbers, ROB, Olimar, Falco, Ike) or they're not really relevant anymore in general(Pokemon Trainer, Lucario).

 

[Fawfulcopter]

If Megaman is done well he could be a great character but after Sonic I'm not so sure he will be and the chances of him getting copy abilities seems slim as, not only are they that big a part of his character but Sakurai could see it as taking away from Kirby's unique gameplay, which he obviously wouldn't want.

I would imagine that unlike Kirby, who's Copying is only incidental(And also pretty useless, because the B move is always the crappiest special move, as in Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Yoshi, Wario, Link, Zelda, Sheik, Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus, Pit, Ice Climbers, King Dedede, Falco, Wolf, Pikachu, Squirtle, Charizard, Ivysaur, Jigglypuff, Marth, Ike, Ness, Lucas, Sonic, Snake and Mr. Game & Watch.), MegaMan's copying would be the basis of his moveset, his B move being the Mega Buster, which would change based on who he's copying, his Side B would be a Grab Move, with which he would steal the opponents power, his Down B would be the Weapon Swap, allowing him to cycle through all his abilities(In a regular Brawl, maximum of 8, allowing for stealing powers of all 3 of the Pokemon Trainer's pokemon, as well as Zelda and Sheik, Samus and Zero Suit Samus. His own Mega Buster would also be usable.)
I'd also imagine that his copied moves would not be stealing the opponent's moves, but rather getting a similar move, from his own games. From Mario, he'd get the atomic fire, based on Mario's Fireball. From Fox, maybe he'd get the Bass Buster, based off Bass's buster from MegaMan & Bass, Rockman & Forte: Challenger from the Future, and Mega Man 10, due to Fox's blaster's properties of rapid fire. From Squirtle, he'd get a water themed power, from Ivysaur, a plant one, and from Charizard, a fire one.

 

[gorgon.]

And also pretty useless, because the B move is always the crappiest special move,

I was already in disagreement with this statement

as in... Snake

but this just made me lol.

 

[Fawfulcopter]

Well, compared to the C4, CIPHER, and Rocket Launcher, Grenade isn't really that great, is it?
And that isn't actually true for all characters. You'll notice I omitted Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Samus, Lucario, and Fox from that list.

 

[gorgon.]

Well, compared to the C4, CIPHER, and Rocket Launcher, Grenade isn't really that great, is it?

I hope you're joking. I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or not. The nade is Snake's best move out of his entire moveset.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I hope you're joking. I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or not. The nade is Snake's best move out of his entire moveset.

↑ What he said. Though the Grenades may not be his most powerful move, they are by far his most versatile projectile with many utilities, including mindgaming, trapping, or you can even camp with them. They're a very good defensive tool with shield-dropping or Grenade-cooking, and in the case of shield-dropping them, Snake can then pick it back up and throw it with more power, not to mention it also gives him a Glide Toss option. I suggest you learn a bit more about Snake before making a comment like that.

Though, granted it's your opinion, you'll find just about every Snake main on the Snake boards disagreeing with your comment... and I've yet to even step foot in the Snake boards.

 

[Fawfulcopter]

OK, fine, Maybe I acted hastily when I added Snake to that list. I personally dislike Snake as a character, and due to his lack of history with Nintendo or relations to Nintendo at all, I'd simply prefer to play as somebody from Konami with more history with Nintendo, like Simon Belmont, or Bomberman. Not to mention that Snake plays like a heavy character, and he's about as heavyset as Waluigi. I'd simply prefer a light or at least medium character.

So, does anybody have any comments on my SSB3DS ideas?

 

[SmashChu]

@ChronoBound: Oh hey, nice to see you here. Nice post, but there are a few things I want to point out

-If you haven't noticed, Nintendo is promoting The Last Story pretty heavily. Players can get a music CD for the game and it is even get it's own bundle.
-You mentioned Toad, but remember that New Super Mario Bros. Wii was huge. I think his inclusion in Sports Mix was a result of that
-On that note, remember that most of the cast from Hoops is not returning. Paratroppa, Birdo and Boo are also not in the game.
-As a general note, Sakurai picks characters on whether or not they are good and they work (there are 4 reasons but I wont fish them out now). Not being in the game does not hurt the chances of Dixie and K. Rool. At least, I don't think so.
-I don't think Sakurai will do a lot more guest characters. He was very restrictive on them already in Brawl, putting a limit of three in total. Also, he only added one after Snake and only towards the tail end of development. Sakurai called it SSB X in Japan as a result of the cross over, so it might not be likely he'll do it again (if he named the game after that). On that note, there are still quite a few Nintendo characters left. He has said that Smash can not go on forever due to this reason.

Good to see you back though.

 

[Gatlin]

I actually hear they are talking about releasing a SSB on the 3DS, I have no sources to back this up, but just a little rumor for me at the moment. I honestly won't think we'll hear much of anything in terms of an SSB4 for another 2-3 years or so.

If anything, I would love for them to fix some "clone characters." In most cases that means the Starfox crew. I wouldn't mind mixing up the final smashes a bit for the three of them, such as Fox calling in the Great Fox to laser cannon, and Falco jumping into an arwing seeing as he does "prefer the air." As for Wolf, I am not sure, maybe calling in other Starwolf people to shoot em' up

As for character introductions, the only ones off the top of my head would be Banjo/Kazooie and Rayman. I couldn't really see either of them succeeding in SSB-type play, however. Especially Rayman since he only has projectile attacks.

 

[Claire Diviner]

So, does anybody have any comments on my SSB3DS ideas?

I actually hear they are talking about releasing a SSB on the 3DS, I have no sources to back this up, but just a little rumor for me at the moment. I honestly won't think we'll hear much of anything in terms of an SSB4 for another 2-3 years or so.

If anything, I would love for them to fix some "clone characters." In most cases that means the Starfox crew. I wouldn't mind mixing up the final smashes a bit for the three of them, such as Fox calling in the Great Fox to laser cannon, and Falco jumping into an arwing seeing as he does "prefer the air." As for Wolf, I am not sure, maybe calling in other Starwolf people to shoot em' up

As for character introductions, the only ones off the top of my head would be Banjo/Kazooie and Rayman. I couldn't really see either of them succeeding in SSB-type play, however. Especially Rayman since he only has projectile attacks.

To answer the SSB3DS bit, we've already discussed it earlier on. The way we see it - knowing the way Nintendo works - it'd be more of a Smash64 port than anything else, whilst including updated graphics, more characters (especially those who were intended to be in Smash64, but was cut out), and more stages - specifically, the ability to select Metal Cave, Battlefield, and Final Destination.

As for the clone bit, Fox and Falco are no longer clones by the strictest definition of the word. Granted they share similarities, Nintendo has gone a long way to ensure Falco was as less of a Fox clone as possible. Personally, they did a great job with that, despite sharing similar B moves. Wolf is vastly different and plays completely differently than Fox and Falco. The only similarity he shares are their B moves, and yet the way said moves function makes them unique to Wolf anyway. The only thing I agree with would be the Final Smash part. Fox's can be The Great Fox, Falco's can be the Arwing, and Wolf's can be the Landmaster (or vice versa for Falco and Wolf, except Wolf would pilot the Wolfen).

And as for Banjo and Rayman, it's highly unlikely, seeing as Banjo belongs to Rare and thus could pose problems getting him in a Nintendo game to begin with. Rayman isn't exactly popular enough, and there are third-party characters who have closer ties to Nintendo than Rayman. In fact, I had completely forgotten about his existence until having read your post, which goes to show how memorable he is. The Raving Rabbids may have been memorable, but not by a whole lot, and even then, they completely overshadow Rayman, having been given their own games sans Rayman.

 

[Balrog]

People don't understand that you cant cram a NINTENDO game full of 3rd party characters,that costs money. Hell,the reason Geno didn't get into brawl wasn't because Square Enix were being *******es,but because they asked for WAY too much money to have him in.



if i had to pick one character i'd like to see in the next Smash game though,it would be a 3rd party character though. Quote from Cave Story. that is all.

 

[TurnOneWrath]

I'd like to see Mario not be so terrible. I'm not suggesting that he be the best character by any means, but as pretty much Nintendo's spokesman, and given all the incredibly (most likely) difficult things he did in the Galaxy games, one would think that he would be able to fight a little better than he currently does.


/bias

 

[DekuBoy]

Well, Mario is really considered by Nintendo as an all-rounder so I doubt his status will change. I hope FLUDD gets improved/removed though.

 

[ryuu seika]

Plus do away with the Sunshine references when they're not old enough to be nostalgic and not as good as his newer games.

EDIT: beaten to it but basically just remove FLUDD and Delfino Plaza, preferably in favour of something like Rock Mario and a more recent level.

 

[UberMario]

FLUDD is awesome, I don't know what you guys are talking about, the water outprioritizes 90% of the moves in the game, negates several recoveries, and can be used as a pseudo-glide/momentum reverse.

And lol @ SMS not being as good as his other games. The reason they included FLUDD was because SMG was too close in time development-wise to Brawl and had nothing in particular that could be added to SSB (except maybe the air spin as an N-Air).

 

[DekuBoy]

No! Keep Delfino Plaza! I beg ye Sakurai.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Even in Brawl, Mario is still the all-rounder. The reason for his low tier placement is that he has little in the way of innovating the metagame. There are only few techniques he can utilise well, like Cape Gliding, Cape Dashing, and not much else. As a result, he failed to catch up to what higher-tiered characters can do.

As for F.L.U.D.D., it isn't really a bad move, in all honesty. It can gimp recoveries when used right, and is a decent way to disrupt certain approaches. Granted, I agree it could've been better, but it isn't the worst thing for him. Also, Ike's Up B recovery is utterly ***** by F.L.U.D.D., so that should count for something.

Also, I like Delfino Plaza. Yeah, it's from what many say is the weakest game in the main Mario series, but as a stage, it's rather great: one of my favorites, to be exact.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Even in Brawl, Mario is still the all-rounder. The reason for his low tier placement is that he has little in the way of innovating the metagame. There are only few techniques he can utilise well, like Cape Gliding, Cape Dashing, and not much else. As a result, he failed to catch up to what higher-tiered characters can do.

I would also put his low tier status down to lack of kill moves, Brawl's dumb physics and an easily gimpable recovery. Well-rounded my ***.

 

[gorgon.]

I liked Sunshine, but I think it was a little obscure compared to the other two (or three if you consider Galaxy 2 separate) console installments. FLUDD mechanics + a largely tropical setting make it the odd one out, but it was a great game nonetheless.

It was nice having FLUDD and Delfino in Brawl, and the former helped to further differentiate Mario and Luigi's movesets, but in the next Smash FLUDD wouldn't fit. I think it would be more appropriate to replace it with something from Galaxy as ryuu said.

EDIT: I think Mario's well-rounded-ness is more in his physics than in this tier placement. He has average weight, average size, average dash, average fall speed and relatively average attack speed, so he is easier to pick up than, say, Fox with his very fast falling speed and fast ground movement.

 

[Big-Cat]

I would also put his low tier status down to lack of kill moves, Brawl's dumb physics and an easily gimpable recovery. Well-rounded my ***.

Indeed. IMO, Mario should be high tier or at least have a lot of effort to ensure he doesn't suck. Ideally, he should be good in everything, but not the best.

 

[UberMario]

Mario is better than the tier list suggests (there's a lack of players for him, and most of the tiers are scrambled to oblivion anyway), just like PT, Ness, and Ike are too high. (IMO)

I think he should have a cape glide though, Mario has amazing DI, but he can't move that high vertically. The main saving graces of his recovery are cape stalling, wall-jumping, and the super armor in his Up B.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Super armor? I was pretty sure it had nothing of the sort. Speed and priority, without a doubt. If someone can confirm Mario's Up B super armor, I'd appreciate it.

 

[gorgon.]

There are a few invincible frames at the beginning of the move IIRC.

 

[Balrog]

Mario is good,he just doesn't have the diversity other characters bring into the mix. that,and hes not commonly used. i liked FLUDDs inclusion in SSBB,and though it couldve been better,its safe to say its incredibly useful when used correctly

 

[Claire Diviner]

There are a few invincible frames at the beginning of the move IIRC.

Ahhh. That makes more sense. I was sure it lacked super armor, since I have spiked him down out of it. It would make sense for him to have invincibility frames, though I'm sure those frames are very quick. I could be wrong.

 

[UberMario]

They are long enough to go through all of Meta-Knight's aerials, including Mach Tornado [if it hits Meta himself], the super armor wears off about two-thirds of the way through the move, so it's also Mario's best counter against chain-grabbing (assuming the opponent leaves the door open for Mario to get out of his hitstun).

 

[ryuu seika]

I still think Hot Top Volcano as a stage beats anything Mario Kart has to offer. In a manner of speaking I guess you could say that Diddy Kong beats MK.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I still think Hot Top Volcano as a stage beats anything Mario Kart has to offer. In a manner of speaking I guess you could say that Diddy Kong beats MK.

Ahaha! Double meanings. XD

I like Hot Top Volcano's track. My favorite music track in Diddy Kong Racing is Spacedust Alley/Star City, with Star City being my favorite course. I so want to play that game again. >ω<

 

[ryuu seika]

I really like the space ones for the most part but I don't like Spaceport Alpha (I think that's the race name but if not I mean the plane one). My favourite race of all though is I think called Crecent Island.

Hot Top Volcano is, in my mind atleast, the most memorable and best for Smash though.

If you're seriously considering replaying it, I'd warn against buying the DS version. I'm pretty sure they've changed the physics of it and they've taken silver coins out of adventure mode and removed the bananas entirely. They've also added in unnesicery touch screen controls made the game too easy with vehicle upgrades, revoiced a lot of the cast and removed banjo in favour of more kongs (that was unavoidable on Nintendo's part but still).
The only advantage I can see for the DS version is that it has the first four races of the unreleased sequel "Donkey Kong Racing".

Oh and they changed the music of some of my favourite levels.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I really like the space ones for the most part but I don't like Spaceport Alpha (I think that's the race name but if not I mean the plane one). My favourite race of all though is I think called Crecent Island.

Hot Top Volcano is, in my mind atleast, the most memorable and best for Smash though.

If you're seriously considering replaying it, I'd warn against buying the DS version. I'm pretty sure they've changed the physics of it and they've taken silver coins out of adventure mode and removed the bananas entirely. They've also added in unnesicery touch screen controls made the game too easy with vehicle upgrades, revoiced a lot of the cast and removed banjo in favour of more kongs (that was unavoidable on Nintendo's part but still).
The only advantage I can see for the DS version is that it has the first four races of the unreleased sequel "Donkey Kong Racing".

Oh and they changed the music of some of my favourite levels.

Wow, really? I've heard many negative things about the DS port, but never knew the details. Now that I know, that basically put the nails in the coffin of any hopes of me wanting to get it.

The Silver Coins was what made the game challenging, and was also what extended the game's playtime (though in a somewhat cheap way). Also, the banana idea was great, and with the code "VITAMINE", there was no cap to the speed boost for the bananas which made races faster and more fun, and "FREEFRUIT" made you start with 10 bananas for a crazy speed start too! God, it was so fun messing around with the codes and bananas and other things. X3

Also, you got it right: it is "Spaceport Alpha", which I wasn't too crazy about either, but it was still fun. Another course I enjoyed was Windmill Plains, because of how seemingly wide open it felt without actually being that wide open. I thought it was great. :D

For Smash Bros., a lot of these tracks can be viable, but if I had to choose just one, I'd go with Wizpig's Lair. You can imagine how hectic such a stage would be for hazzards. Of course, it would probably be tourney-banned for it. As for tourney-legal, Hot Top Volcano can most certainly work, provided they balance the possible hazzards, and try to differentiate it from Norfair.

Personally though, for a tourney-legal stage, I'd want Star City (bias, I know. Ahaha): the main platform will work similarly to Delfino Plaza, but traveling around the city and outskirts. The racers can be the hazzards, but the damage and knockback they give will be unlike the crazy kill power of Mute City's vehicles. Still, there's a "buffet" of stage ideas that can be used from Diddy Kong Racing. If we're lucky, Nintendo will remember that game for when/if they do decide to make a SSB4. :D

 

[PD4FR]

You're right, Diddy Kong Racing music would be awesome for SSB4!

Sol, I don't think you're being biased about Star City. It deserves a place in SSB4's OST. I think the Boss music from DKR would work, too. ^_^

 

[ryuu seika]

Wow, really? I've heard many negative things about the DS port, but never knew the details. Now that I know, that basically put the nails in the coffin of any hopes of me wanting to get it.

I bought it because I loved the original and thought custom tracks could be fun but I'm not convinced that did a good job of that either.

The Silver Coins was what made the game challenging, and was also what extended the game's playtime (though in a somewhat cheap way).

I didn't feel it was that cheap and it was definitely a great addition, as oposed to the touch screen balloon poping as Taj, where you only get control over the camera angle. That was cheap and a tacky way to stick in the DS gimmick.
Silver coins are still in there but there's nolonger any point as they aren't part of adventure mode.

Also, the banana idea was great, and with the code "VITAMINE", there was no cap to the speed boost for the bananas which made races faster and more fun, and "FREEFRUIT" made you start with 10 bananas for a crazy speed start too! God, it was so fun messing around with the codes and bananas and other things. X3

I never found bananas all that useful but they certainly were a good idea.

For Smash Bros., a lot of these tracks can be viable, but if I had to choose just one, I'd go with Wizpig's Lair. You can imagine how hectic such a stage would be for hazzards. Of course, it would probably be tourney-banned for it. As for tourney-legal, Hot Top Volcano can most certainly work, provided they balance the possible hazzards, and try to differentiate it from Norfair.

Norfair doesn't move, whereas Hot Top Volcano would, as I see it, be a fight on top of the planes, with Mario style flame wisps as the only real hazard.

Personally though, for a tourney-legal stage, I'd want Star City (bias, I know. Ahaha): the main platform will work similarly to Delfino Plaza, but traveling around the city and outskirts. The racers can be the hazzards, but the damage and knockback they give will be unlike the crazy kill power of Mute City's vehicles. Still, there's a "buffet" of stage ideas that can be used from Diddy Kong Racing. If we're lucky, Nintendo will remember that game for when/if they do decide to make a SSB4. :D

Everyone's a little biased towards the space stages.
I was really annoyed though when they had a race related event match with Diddy in and it turned out to be Mario Kart. One of the least interesting Mario Kart stges at that. And they didn't even do anything interesting with it, it was static.

 

[moshiman]

i know this is off topic but i personally want the koopa bros. to be playable characters (even though I know its never gonna happen)

 

[Shorts]

Hey guys, so I recall quite a while back someone brought up a list of which characters were added at what times. (Ex: Mario was added first, then Link ect.) I know it wasn't any of the last posters on this page, but does anyone have this? It always brings up nice points of discussion anyhow.

Thanks!

 

[Rychu]

Are you talking about the SSB4 roster vote I had?

 

[Shorts]

Are you talking about the SSB4 roster vote I had?

No, I left before you started that, I remember that much. it was a sort of list/graph that showed the order of which the characters were added/finished/developed for brawl. I can't remember who showed it, It might have been Pieman, but I could be wrong.

edit: Found it, it was posted by Arcadenik! I would repost but it was too hard, if you would like to look at what Im talking about, its partway down the screen, it shows little symbols for all the characters and such. Just take a look.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170103&page=2251