[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[abra-ca-awesome]

@ Panandero

Woo FE rep!
And, you know, gameplay stuff too. Heehee.

@ Kuma

THANK YOU! It's so nice to hear that; virtually everyone I know who is in the" Smash know-how" insists that" X" technique from Melee be reintroduced, especially L-cancelling. I dunno, I guess I just get lukewarm feelings about a lot of those "glitchy" manuevers from the Smashes. I assume it takes a lot to find and debug all of them efficiently, so I'm not complaining that Nintendo is slacking (games like these would take a LOT of debugging). It's just that, in the grand scheme of things, I'd rather see "Y" physics engine fixed before "X" technique is And yeah, I think that's the beauty of a fighting game like Smash; a balance between casual and competitive is found in this series like very few fighting games I know.

@SmashChu

Who's to say in 4 years time that a new third party character won't be prominently featured in the "Game of the Year" and clamored for by fans? Limiting your argument to current franchises only may hold some weight in 2010, but excludes future possibilities.

 

[Big-Cat]

THANK YOU! It's so nice to hear that; virtually everyone I know who is in the" Smash know-how" insists that" X" technique from Melee be reintroduced, especially L-cancelling. I dunno, I guess I just get lukewarm feelings about a lot of those "glitchy" manuevers from the Smashes. I assume it takes a lot to find and debug all of them efficiently, so I'm not complaining that Nintendo is slacking (games like these would take a LOT of debugging). It's just that, in the grand scheme of things, I'd rather see "Y" physics engine fixed before "X" technique is And yeah, I think that's the beauty of a fighting game like Smash; a balance between casual and competitive is found in this series like very few fighting games I know.

Stuff like L-Canceling and Wavedashing are not gliches. The former is really an unnecessary skill barrier (you hardly have no reason to use it, the latter is an exploit of the overall system.

 

[abra-ca-awesome]

Stuff like L-Canceling and Wavedashing are not gliches. The former is really an unnecessary skill barrier (you hardly have no reason to use it, the latter is an exploit of the overall system.

My mistake. I should have used the term "exploits" to describe them better.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's kind of hard to differentiate between a glitch and exploit, but they are different. I'll try to find some more info on the differences between the two.

 

[Latias]

and sonic fair and falco fairr, or fox fair and snake nair, etc.

 

[abra-ca-awesome]

Kuma, please do!

And SmashChu, I meant to add on the following addendum to my comment:
If the well begins to run dry (i.e. Nintendo franchises become exhausted for their supply of Smash-viable candidates), who's to say resources cannot be used on a popular-at-the-time character for play? I agree that too many third-party character dilutes the roster significantly, but how does the introduction of a topical and popular character bring about a downward trend? If anything, wouldn't this serve to freshen the playing field?

 

[Shorts]

*off topic*
have you guys heard about the melee master hand cheat? I didnt believe it either BUT I DID IT.
He sucks to play as tho. He cant be knocked back so you cant lose as him. And he doesnt move. and his moves are the directions on the d pad while pushing a and b at the same time. He pretty much is nothing you want in a character, and when you win as him the game freezes and your controller convulses until you unplug it!

Anyone tried it?

 

[abra-ca-awesome]

*off topic*
have you guys heard about the melee master hand cheat? I didnt believe it either BUT I DID IT.
He sucks to play as tho. He cant be knocked back so you cant lose as him. And he doesnt move. and his moves are the directions on the d pad while pushing a and b at the same time. He pretty much is nothing you want in a character, and when you win as him the game freezes and your controller convulses until you unplug it!

Anyone tried it?

Yes.
Relatively same feelings of meh; I was thrilled to finally get the input right, but he's unplayable, unless you do something like Stamina...which makes him defeatable, not any more fun to play as

 

[Big-Cat]

After looking at the Smash wiki, it seems that exploits are ways that a mechanic can be used despite its original intentions (Wavedashing). A glitch is an error in the programming such as the Black Hole glitch and the Gigallypuff glitch in Brawl.

 

[abra-ca-awesome]

After looking at the Smash wiki, it seems that exploits are ways that a mechanic can be used despite its original intentions (Wavedashing). A glitch is an error in the programming such as the Black Hole glitch and the Gigallypuff glitch in Brawl.

So, in a sense, exploits are unintended variations on a given mechanic, while a glitch is an unintended mechanic. I think. Many thanks

 

[Shorts]

Costumes, What if some characters had clonme character costumes? Would that work like Panda and Kuma in tekken? Or the two Jamican fighters in tekken? (Theyre a boy and girl, dont remeber names)

Ex: Pikachu having Pichu as an alt costume, he is the right size ect, just has the same moves and stats ect as pikachu. Maybe makes different noises. But thats it. Just its pichu on the outside, but plays exactly like pikachu. How much room would that take? If it didnt/doesnt take a lot of room would it be worth it?

Others could be:
Marth (Roy)
Toon Link (Young Link)
Sheik (Impa)
Mewtwo (Deoxys)
Peach (Daisy)
Kirby (Rick) Ricks air suck up move wouldnt actually suck them up. Maybe just chew them?
Lucas (Claus)
Ect..

*Another Off topic*
My neice just beat the koopa bros by herself *tears up* Thats my girl! Shes five.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Again, you're assuming fans are ignorant. They know who owns their favorite series. They also know Smash is a Nintendo all star game. It only takes a trip to Wikipedia or the realization that ~94% of the characters are from Nintendo properties, most of which are obvious.

I'm not assuming they're ignorant, I'm assuming that they're not paying attention to something that's completely irrelevant to them. No fan needs to know who owns who unless they're involved in the business (in which case "fan" is the wrong term) or they're obsessive like us.

And consumers do make decisions based on brand, typically if they know the brand makes good games (like Nintendo) or if they make bad ones. They do this between series as well, and, of course, on the individual game.

Brand recognition covers titles and platforms, definitely, but very rarely do people learn/remember ownership. That applies universally to any product, so I'm really scratching my head here trying to understand why you think Nintendo's IPs are an exception.

Pop quiz, hot shot. Without looking them up, tell me who's at the top of the ownership food chain for these three products:

Well, we don't know that. The characters in SC2 were excepted, but there has been some backlash over new ones. The point of the post was to show that it is possible for people to become jaded by guest characters.

I'll get to this more later.

Sakurai's very distinct rules for guest characters exclude those that SC fans had a problem with, so I'd say we're fine.

And you can save yourself the effort of expanding on that thought, since there probably aren't many (if any) popular 3rd party characters more Nintendo-esque than Mega Man, Simon, or (modern) Sonic. If those guys are too out of place for you, then you can skip the justifications and simply say you don't want any 3rd party characters.

Fair enough. Although, Snake and Sonic are on the box. Or, is that not what you are getting at?

Snake and Sonic are tucked away on the back as opposed to covering 50% of the front. Tell me you understand the difference and importance here.

1)True, but again, there has only been one game with guest characters and everyone knows that Smash is a Nintendo fighting game. Snake was exciting because he wasn't a Nintendo character. The same would be true if it were Megaman or Sonic.

Okay, so what does that have to do with the SC situation compared to Smash?


This next part's huge so I'm shrinking it instead of putting up a link.

2)The point I was making is that they could be. In the very first game, all the characters were exciting because we could fight with characters like Mario and Pikachu all in one game. Melee was exciting because it added other popular characters from well known Nintendo series like Mario and Pokemon. Brawl, if you exclude the third party characters, has a lot less exciting characters. Sure, there is Wario, Pokemon Trainer and Diddy Kong, but a lot of them aren't as exciting as Bowser, Mewtwo or even Zelda. The characters get less and less important and recognizable. The next game will lack exciting characters save for Ridley and new series entries.

This is where third parties may become a problem. Snake created a lot of excitement as did Sonic. So, the third parties can become an easy fix to this problem. To keep excitement, you can add a character from outside the Nintendo sphere. Add Megaman.

The problem with that is that third party characters will become boring. The Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility will hold true. Consider you are eating an ice cream cone 9and you love ice cream). It was really good. You have another. You like it, but not as much as the first. Then you have another. And another. Eventually, you get sick and do not want any more ice cream. That is no different then are Soul caliber friends disliking guest characters. You may say "It's because of Star Wars." That may be true, but notice how they are not talking about Kratos, a character who does fit into the Soul Caliber world.

After Megaman, there is no one who will generate a lot of excitement, or not any more than any new series would do. Most people aren't excited to see Simon, or Bomberman or even an older Final fantasy character. This is the start to "they will become boring." Eventually, the cost of adding another will out weight the benefits.

3)Third party characters will become the downward fall, but only because of the philosophy behind them, not them themselves. Adding third party characters requires a lot of time and legal resources. It may also keep production back as you have to wait to even start the character, lest all that time is wasted if they say no. You may also require that the partner company and your company are in agreement. There may even be royalties involved.

So, why add a third party character when you could add one from Nintendo which would be easier to get? It's because they can generate excitement. You you would take the extra resources to add the character. For Snake, it was OK as they could generate consensus easily. It was only the first and Kojima (from what I know) has a lot of pull on the character. Sonic was OK was EVERYONE wanted Sonic. Not adding him would be worse then doing it. The problem is when you keep sacrificing resources for this. If you keep piling on outside characters, then the resources outweighs the benefit. It would be trying to generate excitement from who's in it rather then what's in it. This would be like making a Sonic game with Mario in it rather than trying to make a good Sonic game. Rather than try to make the game more accessible or adding more fun content or expand the multiplayer, they put most of their effort into putting characters in it. I think part of the despise from SC fans over guest characters is that they becoming the focus over making a good game or, in the cause of a game like Soul Caliber, expanding the world of the game.

Again, my points were that third party characters can be a problem as their cost will outweigh their benefit, and it can hurt the design philosophy if the focus becomes on generating excitement based on who is in the game rather then what the game is.

So, yeah, maybe I went a little overboard there.

Considering a lot of your argument is based on doubting Sakurai's integrity (and subsequently Iwata's faith in him), I honestly don't know where to begin.

One, Sakurai doesn't add characters for hype value. He knows it doesn't work on new fans and it tends to backfire on the old ones. If he adds 3rd party characters, it's because he considers them a worthy addition. A pain in the *** to work towards, but worthy nonetheless.

Second, you seem to be describing this 3rd party situation as if Sakurai and Iwata would refuse anyone who wasn't capable of reimbursing their licensing fees (and then some) via increased sales. Not only is this dependant on the hype theory that they don't believe in, but it's impossible to tell how much of an improvement those characters are really offering. And I don't know why you're worried about "time wasted" since he's not sitting at his desk all day waiting for legal ink to dry.

Lastly, you keep saying that Sakurai COULD give in to pushing hype, he COULD decide to do things the ******** Namco way, he COULD try to bite off more than he can chew in characters. I don't know, maybe you figure he'll have some alcohol-related mishap that prevents both him and Iwata from making intelligent decisions or something.

 

[HowdoIplaylol]

Imo they need ninja raiden from mgs series. lol

 

[Fatmanonice]

Costumes, What if some characters had clonme character costumes? Would that work like Panda and Kuma in tekken? Or the two Jamican fighters in tekken? (Theyre a boy and girl, dont remeber names)

Ex: Pikachu having Pichu as an alt costume, he is the right size ect, just has the same moves and stats ect as pikachu. Maybe makes different noises. But thats it. Just its pichu on the outside, but plays exactly like pikachu. How much room would that take? If it didnt/doesnt take a lot of room would it be worth it?

Others could be:
Marth (Roy)
Toon Link (Young Link)
Sheik (Impa)
Mewtwo (Deoxys)
Peach (Daisy)
Kirby (Rick) Ricks air suck up move wouldnt actually suck them up. Maybe just chew them?
Lucas (Claus)
Ect..

*Another Off topic*
My neice just beat the koopa bros by herself *tears up* Thats my girl! Shes five.

This has been talked about before. If the ALT makes the character smaller/bigger and heavily distorts the character's appearance then they will have to have a seperate character file which takes up a lot of space. For your example, you'd have to make Pikachu smaller and then you'd have to mess around with the body quite a bit. You'd have to enlarge the eyes and ears and shirk everything else. Then you'd have to change the shape of the parts if they are different like how Pikachu and Pichu have different ear and tail shapes. Because of the changes, you'd then have to adjust their movements to their new skeletons to keep them from being as glitchy as all get-out. Basically, you're left with an ALT that's a clone and took almost as much time to make as a completely original character so, in my opinion, they should just stick with recolors like they did with Lucas's Claus ALT and Peach's Daisy ALT in Brawl.

 

[BBQTV]

This has been talked about before. If the ALT makes the character smaller/bigger and heavily distorts the character's appearance then they will have to have a seperate character file which takes up a lot of space. For your example, you'd have to make Pikachu smaller and then you'd have to mess around with the body quite a bit. You'd have to enlarge the eyes and ears and shirk everything else. Then you'd have to change the shape of the parts if they are different like how Pikachu and Pichu have different ear and tail shapes. Because of the changes, you'd then have to adjust their movements to their new skeletons to keep them from being as glitchy as all get-out. Basically, you're left with an ALT that's a clone and took almost as much time to make as a completely original character so, in my opinion, they should just stick with recolors like they did with Lucas's Claus ALT and Peach's Daisy ALT in Brawl.

yes i agree. shortie do you realize just how hard this is?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

This has been talked about before. If the ALT makes the character smaller/bigger and heavily distorts the character's appearance then they will have to have a seperate character file which takes up a lot of space.

They actually take up very very little space, especially compared to music and movies.

Basically, you're left with an ALT that's a clone and took almost as much time to make as a completely original character so, in my opinion, they should just stick with recolors like they did with Lucas's Claus ALT and Peach's Daisy ALT in Brawl.

Melee clones were created because they took so little time to make. How anyone figures an alt character would take longer than that -- let alone "almost as much time as a completely original character" -- is beyond me.

 

[libertyernie]

We sort of already have an "alt character" in Brawl - Wario. It's jus two different models on the same character. This basic principle could work for Peach/Daisy or even Sonic/someone-else (Mighty?) but it would not work for Toon Link and Young Link, because they have very different proportions.

Just thought of another 3rd party character - Arle from Puyo Pop. Or Amitie, or Ringo. They could all have the same moveset, really.

 

[Big-Cat]

This has been talked about before. If the ALT makes the character smaller/bigger and heavily distorts the character's appearance then they will have to have a seperate character file which takes up a lot of space. For your example, you'd have to make Pikachu smaller and then you'd have to mess around with the body quite a bit. You'd have to enlarge the eyes and ears and shirk everything else. Then you'd have to change the shape of the parts if they are different like how Pikachu and Pichu have different ear and tail shapes.

When you're creating alternate costumes, such as those in SSFIV, or these alternate characters, you're creating a new model which isn't that bad if you have a base to begin with. There's nothing like distorting the models or anything unless you want to have some kind of abominable Pichu.

There's more of a concern for changing the hitboxes, damage boxes, etc. than the model itself.

Because of the changes, you'd then have to adjust their movements to their new skeletons to keep them from being as glitchy as all get-out. Basically, you're left with an ALT that's a clone and took almost as much time to make as a completely original character so, in my opinion, they should just stick with recolors like they did with Lucas's Claus ALT and Peach's Daisy ALT in Brawl.

Depending on the costume/character, I don't think you have to do much as they're just new skins being applied to the original skeletons that carry out the animations. For some, you may have to only do stuff like making adjustments for hair (Summer Peach for example) and clothes (Radiant Dawn Ike [Yes, I know there's more to it than that]) animations.

Remember, too, that the clones in Melee were not clones in the sense that they were head swaps with completely identical properties. With that in mind, as Toise said, there's more work in creating a clone than an alt. model.

With that in mind, I welcome alt. characters within reason. Just as long as the box properties are not changed. In that case, you might as well have a clone.

 

[Starphoenix]

Why is it only the gamers here in Smashboards seem to have a problem with third party characters? Most people who play Brawl either enjoy the third party characters or don't pay enough attention to care. If we get a sequel to Brawl we are only talking about 2 more characters at the very most. I don't see why this is such a big deal given that most? Is it really so difficult to believe people actually *gasp* like Solid Snake and Sonic The Hedgehog?!

 

[Shorts]

Gah! So is my idea good, or no!?

Why is it only the gamers here in Smashboards seem to have a problem with third party characters? Most people who play Brawl either enjoy the third party characters or don't pay enough attention to care. If we get a sequel to Brawl we are only talking about 2 more characters at the very most. I don't see why this is such a big deal given that most? Is it really so difficult to believe people actually *gasp* like Solid Snake and Sonic The Hedgehog?!

I welcome them. I love the third party idea, so long as the character is generally liked. (Sorry, I have no liking for Castlevania characters) Like, Bomberman, Sora (Kingdom Hearts), Neku (The world ends with you), Cassandra (sould caliber), ect.
Third parties are great

 

[PF9]

New item:

Surprise Ball
Series: Yoshi
Origin: Yoshi's Story (N64, 1998)
Effect: Gives each character unique abilities that they otherwise would not have. After a character grabs one, it will float above their heads for a certain time, after which it disappears, and the abilities disappear as well (another Surprise Ball must be grabbed then to regain abilities). In Yoshi's Story, when a Yoshi licked a Surprise Ball, they would be thrust upwards, and end up standing on top of it.

Example effects for certain characters:

Kirby: If Kirby has copied another opponent, while he is under the effects the the Surprise Ball, he can use all four special moves of the copied character, as well as their Final Smash if he has a Smash Ball.

Link: His sword can have one of several elemental effects (fire, ice, electricity, etc.)

Lucario: At any damage %, his attacks work as if his Aura was maxed out, and also cannot take damage while under the effect of a Surprise Ball.

Pikachu: Any physical (contact) attacks done to Pikachu will give electrical recoil damage back to the attacker (similar to Pikachu's Static ability in the Pokemon games).

 

[Starphoenix]

Gah! So is my idea good, or no!?



I welcome them. I love the third party idea, so long as the character is generally liked. (Sorry, I have no liking for Castlevania characters) Like, Bomberman, Sora (Kingdom Hearts), Neku (The world ends with you), Cassandra (sould caliber), ect.
Third parties are great

At the same time there does need to be a certain amount of notoriety, history, fan and company support surrounding the character. Frankly, if there are to be guests it isn't going to be any character.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Gah! So is my idea good, or no!?

The alt characters? Yes. Not technically yours or anyone else's in particular, but it's a good'n.


@Star: I could be wrong but I think Chu is the only regular here that has a problem with them. Everywhere else the dissent is more or less "why X but not Y?" and that's just Smash in a nutshell anyway.

 

[Johnknight1]

At the same time there does need to be a certain amount of notoriety, history, fan and company support surrounding the character. Frankly, if there are to be guests it isn't going to be any character.

In nearly every case I agree with you. Although if let's say the 3rd party character made it big or was created for a Nintendo game, I think they should be a running candidate without as much notoriety. The only example I can think of is Geno, but there are a few others. It'd kinda be like if there was a Disney fighting game (Disney vs. Capcom! ) they had Sora, even though he is owned by Square Enix (just like Geno, actually!), but made it big in a game that revolves around Disney (and to a lesser extent Final Fantasy).

As for noteworthy characters, obvious Sonic the Hedgehog and Solid Snake are great, and Mega Man would be great (I'd be so hyped if that happened! Retroific ftw!). But underrated classic and industry-changing characters like Pac-man would also be excellent-as long as they can have inspiring move sets and styles (which of course Pac-man could and would have).

Although I must say having lesser known characters who aren't related to Nintendo wouldn't be great choice. For one, they rarely appeared on Nintendo consoles, didn't start out or "break out" on a Nintendo console, and aren't big enough to attract a bigger audience or original enough to.

For instance, Metal Gear first came out on the MSX2, but wasn't huge until it was on the NES. It sold over a million copies on the NES. That's how Metal Gear got big. Sonic got big as the mascot of an entire 1st party gaming company, and Nintendo's key rival in the early 90's, and important rival in the late 90's (although if you told that to kids now they'd laugh at the thought of SEGA or Sonic being that good!).

Basically, if you're going to have more 3rd party characters, make an original choice, and preferably one player's will love. From a business standpoint for Nintendo, Nintendo would want to get a character that would make more people buy the game, and from a business standpoint for the 3rd party, they'd want to get in a character or a game that could make said character or series more popular, or sell an upcoming game. I bet quite a few picked up copies of Sonic Unleashed and other Sonic games after Sonic was in Brawl, or picked up MGS4 or other Metal Gear games after Snake was in Brawl.

Also when the next smash is announced, I'ma gonna make me a sequel to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgSTLuYeIKQ

If I guess more characters correctly than anyone else on youtube again I will not be surprised, because I'll probably be the only person with an ounce of knowledge on the matter of character guessing! XD

Edit: Also for the Final Smash, each character should get two Final Smashes, and there should be two types of smash balls. One that transforms the character (Landmasters, Wario-Man, and the likes), and one that is a super attack (Mario's Super Fireball, Link's Triforce Attack, Lucario's Aural...whatever move, etc). That way, we have more balanced and more varied final smashes. Plus playing as Beast Ganon or Ness the PK God? Best. Idea. EVER!

 

[SmashChu]

I'm not assuming they're ignorant, I'm assuming that they're not paying attention to something that's completely irrelevant to them. No fan needs to know who owns who unless they're involved in the business (in which case "fan" is the wrong term) or they're obsessive like us.

What your are saying is that people don't know who made (and would then own) the game. I don't think people would somehow not notice the words "Capcom," when turning on a game. I think Megaman fans know it's Capcom, not Nintendo, who makes Megaman.

Brand recognition covers titles and platforms, definitely, but very rarely do people learn/remember ownership. That applies universally to any product, so I'm really scratching my head here trying to understand why you think Nintendo's IPs are an exception.

Ownership is tied to the brand. if it says "Nintendo," when you start the game, that means Nintendo made it and owns it. They go hand in hand and I think people know that.

You buy Cheetos. If you buy them enough, you should recognize that they say "Fritos." You may not now if Fritos is owned by someone, but you know they make them and probably own them. Since Video games are published by a single name, buyers would eventually catch wind that "Hey, Capcom makes this game." Again, you are assuming consumers are ignorant or don't pay attention. Most of your arguments boil down to that.

And you can save yourself the effort of expanding on that thought, since there probably aren't many (if any) popular 3rd party characters more Nintendo-esque than Mega Man, Simon, or (modern) Sonic. If those guys are too out of place for you, then you can skip the justifications and simply say you don't want any 3rd party characters.

Not sure why I argue with you are all you do is try to find motive rather then disprove my argument. Why not attack my points rather then try to find an alternative motive?

Snake and Sonic are tucked away on the back as opposed to covering 50% of the front. Tell me you understand the difference and importance here.

Again, you are assuming that consumers are ignorant or don't pay attention. Because it's very hard for someone to flip the box.

Again, I did say that you have a good point here.

Okay, so what does that have to do with the SC situation compared to Smash?

That point is talked about in the wall of text (which was what that wall was focused on anyway). The point is that guest characters in those games were fine at first (people didn't complain about Spawn despite he doesn't fit in very well). But, after almost 4 games, people are tired of it. The point I was trying to make is that people will eventually become hostile to the new characters.

Considering a lot of your argument is based on doubting Sakurai's integrity (and subsequently Iwata's faith in him), I honestly don't know where to begin.

There have only been 3 games with a 10 year time span. We really know very little. My actual point is that how with a 4 game are they going to generate excitement. Brawl has so much in it that you have to ask "Where can we go next." What more could they do outside of polishing some of the game modes (like online).

The problem is that few characters can generate excitement. So, the design process becomes much much harder. You can use characters as a way to make the game be better. Let me put it this way though: there is no point to show off characters while showing off the game. You can say there will be new ones, but you can't have something like the E3 06 trailer which was focused mostly on the characters. The promotional stuff would have to be able to sell the game as if they were using the original 8.

I think you are missing the actual argument though. I never even mentioned Sakurai or Iwata.

One, Sakurai doesn't add characters for hype value. He knows it doesn't work on new fans and it tends to backfire on the old ones. If he adds 3rd party characters, it's because he considers them a worthy addition. A pain in the *** to work towards, but worthy nonetheless.

If he's not going to add characters for hype value then why waste the time, effort and money to get one outside of Nintendo then? He coudl just add a character that is "likable." This has been an older argument I've used for why we won't see a lot more third party characters. It's a little off topic, so I digress.

My argument is, though, on what if he does. How a focus on third party characters can be a bad thing. Not that he will or wont.

Second, you seem to be describing this 3rd party situation as if Sakurai and Iwata would refuse anyone who wasn't capable of reimbursing their licensing fees (and then some) via increased sales. Not only is this dependant on the hype theory that they don't believe in, but it's impossible to tell how much of an improvement those characters are really offering. And I don't know why you're worried about "time wasted" since he's not sitting at his desk all day waiting for legal ink to dry.

I'm not describing that at all. Show me where I said that.

Lastly, you keep saying that Sakurai COULD give in to pushing hype, he COULD decide to do things the ******** Namco way, he COULD try to bite off more than he can chew in characters. I don't know, maybe you figure he'll have some alcohol-related mishap that prevents both him and Iwata from making intelligent decisions or something.

First, this is a very good point.

But, we have to remember that where will the series go next? Characters are a very easy way to go so that could be a wall in the design. How to generate excitement for the game without the roster?

My argument is about "if he does it." I never said he will. Because he could, like you said, my point is just as possible as yours. So, it does not hurt my argument.

One last thing I want to point out is that you assume that everyone either like or doesn't mind the third party characters, but that isn't true. There is a very small group of people who are not happy with third party characters, either because they are not Nintendo or do not fit in. Either way, some people are not too happy about it. This is where a problem could arise. If too many are added, then there may be an explosion among fans.

A lot of your points have been about Sakurai or that people don't know any better. Tell me, why wont third party characters themselves not make people upset?

 

[ToonNess64]

I don't mind 3rd party characters THAT much... just as long as they don't overdo it.

Super Smash Bros IS a "Nintendo AllStars" fighting game after all I would like to keep it like that.

Megaman seems to be the only popular option now.... I don't see any others even having 50% chance in making it in. Even though I would love to see someone as Bomberman tagging along. I just don't see it happening in another 5 decades even. :/

 

[ElPanandero]

I like 3rd parties as long as they are Nintendo related. Megaman, Bomberman, Sonic (bleh), castlevania, and FF/DQ are all ok (and i wouldn't mind if they were all in[except Sonic and most FF characters]) but ones like Snake, who have zero ties to nintendo have no place.

I don't see the problem with multiple, but I seem to be alone, so meh.

@Chu/Toise

I am not going to get too in depth with the arguement but I will point out that when I was less into gaming I never payed attention to developers/publishers. I played Street Fighter II a lot way back in the day while I was also playing Zelda, I had no idea there was any difference in the people who made them.

Just saying on a personal scale, as a casual gamer, in my situation, Toise was right.

 

[UberPyro64]

Good Ideas or bad Ideas?


Super Smash Bros. 4

Game types on Giant stages

4 VS 4 or 5 VS 5

Red Vs Blue

Giant Stages can have:
• a base for each team
• a base for 1 team with the other having no base
• just an open area

Capture the Flag
• Standard CTF: Each team has a flag at their base the other team needs to capture.
o Can be set from 1-10 flags captured to win or have a time limit where it’s who captured the most flags by the end.

• 1 flag: 1 team has to defend a flag from the other team.
o Again can be set from 1-10 flags to win and/or add a time limit but not who captured the most flags by the end because that wouldn’t work.

• Neutral flag: a neutral flag in the middle of the stage
o Again can be set from 1 to 10 flags to win and/or add a time limit where it’s who captured the most flags by the end.

• Stockpile: There are a bunch of flags around the stage and both teams will have to bring them to their capture zone. While stopping the enemy team from doing the same. You can also go to the enemy capture zone and take a flag from it and then bring it back to your capture zone and of course the enemy team can do the same.
oYou can set the flag count from 1-10 in your capture zone to win and/or add a time limit so by the end whoever has the most flags wins.

King of the Hill
• Standard KOTH: There is a centre point in the centre of the map. A team will have to capture it. And defend it from the enemy team until your time limit is done (similar to Team fortress 2’s version). If the other team captures it from you, your time limit will stop and theirs will begin.
o You can change the time from 1 minute all the way to 99 minutes.

• Crazy KOTH: The Centre point will change location after every 10-20 seconds or so.
o Same rules as with Standard KOTH


Board the Platforms
o 8 platforms throughout the stage with teams having to capture them by jumping on them.
othe beginning they blink green but when red steps on them they turn red or when blue steps on them they turn blue.
o One team can jump and capture a platform that has all ready been captured by the enemy team.
o Whoever has the most platforms when the time limit ends, wins.

Capture Point
• Attack: Both Teams attempt to capture the control point. Whoever captures it will gain a point. After the point is captured a new area on the stage will open up revealing a new point to capture.
o Time can be set from 1 minute to 99 minutes.

• Attack and defend: One team defend capture points while the other attacks
o Same rules as attack.


o Capture Point is exclusive to pacific stages with those only being able to use capture point

Game types can only be used on Giant stages and of course you can do simple time, stock and coin battles, and as stated at the top it can be 4 VS 4 or 5 VS 5. There is also a mini map at the top right corner.


• 40 New Stages
• 40 Returning stages
• 15 giant stages
• 5 CP Giant Stages
• Total=100 Stages
• All brawl Items return + Red shell and 15 new Items
• 3 different Final Smashes (different coloured smash balls dose a different move Red smash, Blue smash, and Green smash)
• Standard battles still only have 4 People

Returning stages

SSB
1. Princess Peaches Castle
2. Mushroom Kingdom
3. Congo Jungle
4. Hyrule Castle
5. Planet Zebus
6. Yoshi’s Island
7. Dream Land
8. Final Destination
SSBM
1. Princess Peaches Castle
2. Rainbow Cruise
3. Mushroom Kingdom 2
4. Kongo Jungle
5. Jungle Japes
6. Hyrule Temple
7. Brinstar
8. Yoshi’s Island
9. Fountain of Dreams
10. Green Green’s
11. Corneria
12. Venom
13. Pokémon Stadium
14. Big Blue
15. Onnet
16. Fourside
SSBB
1. Delfino Plaza
2. Luigi’s Mansion
3. Mario Circuit
4. Bridge of Eldin
5. Pirate Ship
6. Frigate Orpheon
7. Yoshi’s Island
8. Halberd
9. Lylat Cruise
10. Pokémon Stadium 2
11. Port Town Aero Drive
12. Castle Siege
13. Summit
14. Skyworld
15. Shadow Moses Island
16. Green Hill Zone


Solo (all can be done with co-op)
• 100 event match’s +50
• 50 Returning
• 50 New
• 50 Co-op

• 10 Target test stages

• Home run Contest

• Multi man(insert Title here)
o 10 man
o 100 man
o 3-minute
o 15-minute
o Endless
o Cruel
o 3-minute Base defence
o 15-minute Base defence
o Endless Base defence
o Cruel Base defence
Base Defence has 4 people against the multi man.

•Boss battles
o 20 Boss battles

•Classic mode with 12 stages
• Standard Adventure Mode 12 stages
• All star mode
• Story Mode
• Training

Group:
• Standard battle
• Special battle
• Giant stage battle
• Special Giant stage battle
• Rules
• Tourney
o Giant Tourney
• Rotation
o Giant Rotation
• Names

Vault
• 500 Achievements

• Advanced Stage Builder
o Small
o Medium
o Large
o Giant
 Choose song
 Choose setting
 Make Custom Setting
 Custom Pieces
 150 different kinds of pieces
 More room (memory)
 Different types of Blocks (e.g. Standard, Grassy, Ice, Water, Rock, Lava, Dirt, Metal, Drop blocks)
 Themes such as Mario Zelda, Metroid, Pokémon Etc.

Album
 Edit Album

Replays
 Edit replays

1200 Trophies and 2000 Stickers
Both lottery and coin launcher are used to get trophies and stickers

Online “With Anyone”
Basic Battle
o Vote what to do
Team Battle
o Vote What to do
Giant stage Battle
o Vote What to do
Special Battle
o Vote what to do
Special Giant stage Battle
o Vote What to do
Spectator

All below can be done “With anyone” and “With Friends”
Multi-man
o 4-5 teams with 2 on each people to get the best time/score
 10 man
 100 man
 3-minute
 15-minute
 Endless
 Cruel

Base Defence Multi-man
o 4 People defending
 3-minute
 15-minute
 Endless
 Cruel

Solo Target Smash
o 8-10 Teams with 1 on each

Multi Target Smash
o 4-5 Teams with 2 on Each

Solo Home Run Contest
o 8-10 teams competing with 1 on each

Multi Home Run contest
o 4-5 teams competing with 2 on each

Co-op Event Match
o 2 People

Event Match Contest
o 4-5 Teams with 2 on each to see who can get the Fastest Time and least damage on a co-op event match.

Boss Battles
o 2 people fighting all the bosses

Boss Battle Contest solo
o 8-10 teams with 1 on each fighting one boss to get the best time and least damage

Boss Battle Contest co-op
o 4-5 Teams with 2 on each fighting one boss to get the best time and least damage

Tourney
o 32 players at once

Rotation
o 20 Players at once

Servers

Join a Server
Create a Server
Find a Custom Server
 In servers the host can host standard battles and Multi-man base defence

Join Giant Server
Create Giant Server
Find Custom Giant Server
 In Giant Servers the host has much more freedom to do anything except Standard Battles and Multi man base defence

o In servers Friend or Random People can join
o Hosts can use custom Stages
o In servers hosts cannot do standard boss battle,
and co-op event matches.

Everyone has a User Name

Add Friend by entering their name or by going to the “people I played with” section and send friend request.

There is System-Link for Giant Stage Battles

Giant stages and Regular stages that are made by users in stage builder and are of very high quality can be made an official stage by Nintendo so everyone can play it whenever they want.

So what do you think? is it good, bad, OK, Awesome, Horrible..... any thing you want me to add? feel free to criticize or praise.

 

[Big-Cat]

What your are saying is that people don't know who made (and would then own) the game. I don't think people would somehow not notice the words "Capcom," when turning on a game. I think Megaman fans know it's Capcom, not Nintendo, who makes Megaman.

Will they notice? Yes, but how many of them actually care? Naturally, fans are going to know what company owns their favorite games. However, what about the people who don't care? For example, I could care less who's directing the movie (unless its Uwe Boll) as long as the movie is good. Heck, I don't follow movie actors, but I do follow voice actors.

There have only been 3 games with a 10 year time span. We really know very little. My actual point is that how with a 4 game are they going to generate excitement. Brawl has so much in it that you have to ask "Where can we go next." What more could they do outside of polishing some of the game modes (like online).

Aside from refining the gameplay, they can always look into User Generated Content. I think a lot of people would love it if you could have, for example, the option to have custom palette swaps that could be sent to other players. IIRC, Nintendo's been looking into this, and if WarioWare: DIY is any indication, we may see more in the future.

The problem is that few characters can generate excitement. So, the design process becomes much much harder. You can use characters as a way to make the game be better. Let me put it this way though: there is no point to show off characters while showing off the game. You can say there will be new ones, but you can't have something like the E3 06 trailer which was focused mostly on the characters. The promotional stuff would have to be able to sell the game as if they were using the original 8.

This is only true to an extent. If the characters bring in new playstyles or whatever, because these kind of games require diversity, you would have a point, but the presence of the characters doesn't mean its automatically better.

But, we have to remember that where will the series go next? Characters are a very easy way to go so that could be a wall in the design. How to generate excitement for the game without the roster?

By doing something that should've been done this whole time: Don't just tell, but show as well. The second Brawl trailer that showed us Mario, Link, Kirby, Pikachu, and the first five newcomers, all in action. This is what they could have more of an emphasis on in the future as a means to generate hype.

Take a look at these two trailers, one for Snake, and the other when Sonic was confirmed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eU0kXhL5k0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3-HMoqZgzU

These two trailers show us the neat stuff that you can do with these characters, showing and telling you why you might want to try these characters. I think the Dojo attempted this with pictures for all its other characters, but it's not really as enticing as a video, IMO.

Th next game could have a decrease in the amount of new comers, but this game, while running on fan service, is still a game. The roster is only a part of the game's overall content. If the game is still a fun game for different kinds of people, there's nothing to worry about.

One last thing I want to point out is that you assume that everyone either like or doesn't mind the third party characters, but that isn't true. There is a very small group of people who are not happy with third party characters, either because they are not Nintendo or do not fit in. Either way, some people are not too happy about it. This is where a problem could arise. If too many are added, then there may be an explosion among fans.

lol at not fitting in Super Smash Bros.

*stuff*

This is really not the kind of game for these kind of things. Could it work? Maybe, but if the Subspace Emissary is any indication, any significant shift from fighting to something else just doesn't work well. In this case, you're trying to apply something that's explicitly made for shooters.

• 40 New Stages
• 40 Returning stages
• 15 giant stages
• 5 CP Giant Stages
• Total=100 Stages

I wouldn't be surprise if we do get 100 stages, assuming they bring back every past stage. Otherwise, I can't see it happening.

• All brawl Items return + Red shell and 15 new Items

As long as the Brawl items aren't broken again (I HATE THE FAN!).

• 3 different Final Smashes (different coloured smash balls dose a different move Red smash, Blue smash, and Green smash)

I'm more of the super meter person, but I think two is a good place to stop since I think we're going to get to the point where we see made up stuff.

• 10 Target test stages

I'd prefer to have personal target test stages back.

 Edit replays

1. Why the weird character? 2. Why edit replays? If we want to do that, we can just capture and upload to our computer.

Online “With Anyone”
Basic Battle
o Vote what to do
Team Battle
o Vote What to do
Giant stage Battle
o Vote What to do
Special Battle
o Vote what to do
Special Giant stage Battle
o Vote What to do
Spectator

I think it would be better to have search settings. Leave the voting for when people have different item settings (read: items on).

Servers

Join a Server
Create a Server
Find a Custom Server
 In servers the host can host standard battles and Multi-man base defence

I believe the proper term is a lobby.

Everyone has a User Name

Add Friend by entering their name or by going to the “people I played with” section and send friend request.

This should be a standard for online games and I think it is on XBL.

So what do you think? is it good, bad, OK, Awesome, Horrible..... any thing you want me to add? feel free to criticize or praise.

I think this was mostly fluff. To me, it's a waste of time to work on this stuff in a fighting game. I think you're better off with a few basic things like leaderboards, a refined online mode, and a different type of mission mode where you can practice with the characters and learn what you can do with them.

 

[ToonNess64]

The only thing I want in a future smash is the welcome return of Mewtwo :D But seeing the creation of Zoroark in the new Pokemon games, I guess he wont stand a chance in returning

Also I have the feeling that Toon Link will be re-replaced by Young Link seeing as there is a remake of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Oh, well at least there is a guarantee that Ness and Pikachu will stay

 

[BurnBurn]

Weird Idea, but I want to be able to catch teammate's uncatchable projectiles and throw them at any angle back.

 

[Shorts]

At the same time there does need to be a certain amount of notoriety, history, fan and company support surrounding the character. Frankly, if there are to be guests it isn't going to be any character.

Exactly, Hudson soft works closly with nintendo and has already had a bimberman/wario cross-over. Bomberman is pretty iconic. I would say he isnt a mario or megaman. But he still is pretty well known.

Square Enix, obviously has worked WITH nintendo in the past. Theyve corssed over in mario hoops 3 on 3. Sora seems to me to be one of the most likely picks out of all the SE games. Of course Black Mage, would work too.

Namco, now im not too familar with namco, i know they have crossed over with nintendo before. Like SSBB Soul caliber almost always has a third party character. Link has actually battled against Cassandra before.


@Toise, so with the Alt. character idea, how many do you think their should be? Should they try to fit a lot, or just a few deserved characters? Should the characters they add in already be smash worthy if they were their own character, or is Sheik/impa a bad idea?
I didnt just pick them for no reason!

 

[Shy Guy!]

For it to go back to being a challenge to learn tech skill

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

This is my last post on this Chu since you really aren't getting it. Gonna avoid quote jenga and try focusing on the essential points.


You can't compare SC's situation to Smash's:

- Soul Calibur (a contained series with its own canon and setting) includes guest characters that are much more popular than the series itself (sans Lloyd), barely fit in the setting (sans maybe Link, Lloyd, and Kratos), and Namco promotes the crap out of them.

- Smash Bros. (a crossover series with no actual canon or single setting) includes guest characters that are less popular than the series itself (and less popular than a number of series represented), clearly fit in the theme (although Snake is debatable for being more Sony-oriented than Nintendo), and aren't shoved in your face more than any other character.

The only way you could think Smash's future will ever look like SC's is if you think Sakurai or whoever else makes it is nearly as ******** as the people at Namco. So yes, doubting integrity is pretty key for your slippery slope to work.


Now, I don't know if you actually pay attention to what people say, but people LIKE 3rd parties. Not necessarily Snake and Sonic in particular as opposed to Mega Man or whoever else, but the concensus is that the idea itself is great. You even admitted this by saying "there is a very small group of people who are not happy with third-party characters." Or are you insisting Sakurai should pander to a select few?

Second, you seem to be describing this 3rd party situation as if Sakurai and Iwata would refuse anyone who wasn't capable of reimbursing their licensing fees (and then some) via increased sales.

I'm not describing that at all. Show me where I said that.

*rewind*

Again, my points were that third party characters can be a problem as their cost will outweigh their benefit, and it can hurt the design philosophy if the focus becomes on generating excitement based on who is in the game rather then what the game is.

Unless you meant they'd "benefit" in time saved (somehow) or hype (meaningless), then that leaves money.

Last thing I'll mention is your insistence on hype. You of all people should know how worthless it is, so why do you keep bringing it up as if that's why characters are chosen? And why do you think Sakurai will drop his main principles of design in favor of it?

A lot of your points have been about Sakurai

Because he's important. Also your prediction depends on him making mistakes he's been actively avoiding for 20 years.

or that people don't know any better.

They don't and it's perfectly fine.

Tell me, why wont third party characters themselves not make people upset?

Because they haven't been. Get this: very few people are blindly loyal to Nintendo and only Nintendo. People like other stuff too. Nintendo realizes this and they're making the most of it. Why are you so hung up over this?


My only disappointment with this conversation is that no one mentioned Captain N in response to me calling Simon and Mega Man "honorary Nintendo characters" and no one asked about why hype does nothing. Oh well.



@Panera Bread: You know, I had two friends on seperate occasions ask me why Mega Man wasn't in Brawl this last month. They were surprised to hear that he wasn't owned by Nintendo, and when I quizzed them on who they thought owned it, they both guessed Sega.


@Shortie: I actually only want overalls Wario, Doc, Pichu, and a female Pokemon Trainer since those are either notable or a callback to Melee. Can't say I'd mind more if they were in good taste though. Impa not so much, partially because Impa doesn't turn into a princess.

 

[Shorts]

Toise, I dont think you can put Simon near the same place as megaman. I dont even put bomberman near megaman.
Elite: Mario/Sonic/MegaMan/Black Mage

In-betweens: Simon/Bomberman/Lloyd/Chrono

Less Popular: Bub and Bob/Nightmare/Muramasa

Simon, Bomberman(sorta), Lloyd and Chrono are not universally recognized characters. It just seems silly to call Simon an Honorary character.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

"Honorary Nintendo character" as in "strongly associated with Nintendo platforms." All of the best Castlevania games can be played on Nintendo systems except Bloodlines (which will probably be on the VC anyway) and Symphony of the Night. Panera Bread got the right idea.

Guess I should've expected someone older to mention Captain N.



edit in case you don't wanna look through the last page:

I like 3rd parties as long as they are Nintendo related. Megaman, Bomberman, Sonic (bleh), castlevania, and FF/DQ are all ok (and i wouldn't mind if they were all in[except Sonic and most FF characters]) but ones like Snake, who have zero ties to nintendo have no place.

I don't see the problem with multiple, but I seem to be alone, so meh.

 

[Cyn]

Toise, I dont think you can put Simon near the same place as megaman. I dont even put bomberman near megaman.

He can and should. Castlevania is a very successful franchise that is rich in character history and storyline. Bomberman can't boast that. Bomberman didn't have a real storyline really until it went 3D. Simon is an iconic character (not saying that Bomberman isn't) of an iconic series. Maybe he isn't as successful as Mega-man, but you can't seriously state that Castlevania isn't very well-known compared to Mega-Man. the only reason Bomberman is well known is because he is part of a great multiplayer genre. Castlevania is a great single player game (until recently with the fighting release)

Don't misread me and think I am saying Castlevania deserves a rep over Mega man. But I do believe they do over Bomber.

 

[BlackLightning90]

Online “With Anyone”
Basic Battle
o Vote what to do
Team Battle
o Vote What to do
Giant stage Battle
o Vote What to do
Special Battle
o Vote what to do
Special Giant stage Battle
o Vote What to do
Spectator

All below can be done “With anyone” and “With Friends”
Multi-man
o 4-5 teams with 2 on each people to get the best time/score
 10 man
 100 man
 3-minute
 15-minute
 Endless
 Cruel

Base Defence Multi-man
o 4 People defending
 3-minute
 15-minute
 Endless
 Cruel

Solo Target Smash
o 8-10 Teams with 1 on each

Multi Target Smash
o 4-5 Teams with 2 on Each

Solo Home Run Contest
o 8-10 teams competing with 1 on each

Multi Home Run contest
o 4-5 teams competing with 2 on each

Co-op Event Match
o 2 People

Event Match Contest
o 4-5 Teams with 2 on each to see who can get the Fastest Time and least damage on a co-op event match.

Boss Battles
o 2 people fighting all the bosses

Boss Battle Contest solo
o 8-10 teams with 1 on each fighting one boss to get the best time and least damage

Boss Battle Contest co-op
o 4-5 Teams with 2 on each fighting one boss to get the best time and least damage

Tourney
o 32 players at once

Rotation
o 20 Players at once

Servers

Join a Server
Create a Server
Find a Custom Server
 In servers the host can host standard battles and Multi-man base defence

Join Giant Server
Create Giant Server
Find Custom Giant Server
 In Giant Servers the host has much more freedom to do anything except Standard Battles and Multi man base defence

o In servers Friend or Random People can join
o Hosts can use custom Stages
o In servers hosts cannot do standard boss battle,
and co-op event matches.
.

Considering that Nintendo wants to add value to online I would agree to this.

 

[Big-Cat]

Toise, I dont think you can put Simon near the same place as megaman. I dont even put bomberman near megaman.
Elite: Mario/Sonic/MegaMan/Black Mage

In-betweens: Simon/Bomberman/Lloyd/Chrono

Less Popular: Bub and Bob/Nightmare/Muramasa

Simon, Bomberman(sorta), Lloyd and Chrono are not universally recognized characters. It just seems silly to call Simon an Honorary character.

I don't quite agree with these placings. I don't see why Crono is so high really. Bomberman is debatable. That reminds me, does anyone actually WANT Pacman in the next game as the Namco character? I'd much more prefer Lloyd. At the very least, he'd be very easy to adapt to the game. And unless Nintendo and Namco decide to troll us, I'd be totally fine with Haruka from The iDolM@ster.

 

[ElPanandero]

"Honorary Nintendo character" as in "strongly associated with Nintendo platforms." All of the best Castlevania games can be played on Nintendo systems except Bloodlines (which will probably be on the VC anyway) and Symphony of the Night. Panera Bread got the right idea.

Guess I should've expected someone older to mention Captain N.



edit in case you don't wanna look through the last page:

Ah, I forget Captain N. I did play his game a lil bit, though I dorgot he was 3rd party (see previous post about when I didn't notice anything about publishers/developers)

P.S: Wouldn't mind Lloyd, Greatest Gamecube RPG. Though I prefer Regal