[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Kei_Takaro]

I'm kinda in the middle of the Mii issue
The Mii is kinda the staple of the Wii, and it pretty much gives more reason for it to be included
(like ROB and Game and Watch since they are somewhat console representatives)
The Mii has been in lots of titles before (and even cameos) so what more can be expected?

On the other hand, the Mii is more of a "casual" standpoint, you won't see games like Mii Dungeon, or Mii Battle Warriors and such since they were made for casual non-fighting games only (Boxing does not count). If Sakurai is still the developer, I think he will deny Mii's because he mostly takes characters from video games (like PT rather than Ash) when Mii's feel like they are sending casual appeals.

Also for an personal slightly non-sensiblel illogical reason, the Mii is a family thing while other games are more non-family-ish thing lol

 

[SnakeX]

I'd favour dropping a few characters to have a custom character (Not-Mii), but it's not likely to happen, and it'll probably have generic movesets, probaby randomized or taken off another character.

 

[DekuBoy]

ROB is a robot, so he could fight.
Animal Crossing is a game of non-violence, so putting characters into a fighting game would make no sense. It's obvious others feel this way too.

No. ROB was a plastic toy which did pretty much nothing, and was converted into a good playable fighter. The same could easily be done with an AC rep.

 

[SmashChu]

No. ROB was a plastic toy which did pretty much nothing, and was converted into a good playable fighter. The same could easily be done with an AC rep.

No, because ROB was not the antithesis to fighting. Animal Crossing series is. The characters (besides Resetti maybe) would look weird. Look at the Starmen.net thread and you'll see why.

 

[DekuBoy]

They had some good points but not enough to convince me. They mainly kept saying 'No, it's peaceful' and 'they look stupid'.

Also Resetti would be frankly, the most awesome character to ever be in Super Smash Bros. Just saying.

 

[Big-Cat]

No, because ROB was not the antithesis to fighting. Animal Crossing series is. The characters (besides Resetti maybe) would look weird. Look at the Starmen.net thread and you'll see why.

All I read in that thread was the same thing we're doing here: arguing. It's not like there was anything ground breaking there.

I've mentioned several times that characters looking weird is a terrible argument. If they can turn Little Red Riding Hood into a fighting game character, they can do the same for an Animal Crossing character. For an Animal Crossing character, it's a matter of turning the non-violent stuff into violent stuff.

 

[SmashChu]

I've mentioned several times that characters looking weird is a terrible argument. If they can turn Little Red Riding Hood into a fighting game character, they can do the same for an Animal Crossing character. For an Animal Crossing character, it's a matter of turning the non-violent stuff into violent stuff.

Capcom does that all the time, however, Sakurai has another outlook. Seeing as how Brawl has done better then Capcom's fighting games, he may be on to something.

EDIT:Actually, B.B. Hood is suppose to be a "parody" character (for lack of a better term). The character intentionally looks like another one for what ever reason. Animal Crosser would not be a different character, but the same one.

 

[Big-Cat]

Capcom does that all the time, however, Sakurai has another outlook. Seeing as how Brawl has done better then Capcom's fighting games, he may be on to something.

I wouldn't say Sakurai is on to something for this. I'm not sure if you're a big fan of Sakurai or not, but I'm going to continue under the assumption that you aren't.

I don't know why you and Toise seem to "underestimate" the star power the roster has. Along with simpler executions, Smash's roster is why it has continued to sell well. Not a whole lot of fighting games benefit from both of these. Now, let's get not into which is better: Capcom fighting games or Smash, but I will say that sales do not relate to quality.

Also, I'm glad to see you knew who exactly I was talking about regarding Little Red Riding Hood.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

...You're not making sense to me. It just seems to be an opinion outweighing precedent. The Mii would have a moveset based around the various games its been in. Its face would be the player's own Mii head imported over. If the problem stems from a lack of personality, there are a handful of characters already who do not have personalities of their own. (Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Yoshi, Ice Climbers, ROB, Mr G&W, and even Mario to a certain extent) While I am making a assumption that your belief that they are generic and lamb comes from the fact that they have no real personality, the fact is that several other characters are in the same boat.

And even so, I wouldn't could it as generic or lame, since its supposed to be a avatar of yourself.

You have a point...I suppose I was treating him too harshly...or some reason I recall him beign way more customizable than he really is...Meh go for it....

 

[Pieman0920]

Well actually, besides the design of the head, the Mii's body can also be altered to small extent, but I would think something like that could be a problem if brought over, so just the head should suffice, I would think.

Anyways, @ Kei Takaro

Yes, the Mii is a more "casual" oriented character, but is there anything really wrong with that? Why exclude that part of the market when it its so sucessful. Now I'm not saying that the whole game should be made casual (which some may debate it has for Brawl) but having some representation from it may not really be a bad thing.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Anyways, @ Kei Takaro

Yes, the Mii is a more "casual" oriented character, but is there anything really wrong with that? Why exclude that part of the market when it its so sucessful. Now I'm not saying that the whole game should be made casual (which some may debate it has for Brawl) but having some representation from it may not really be a bad thing.

The only reason I ever said anything about Animal Crossing characters.

 

[Mowrt620]

The Mii is more like a rep for the wii, like G&W was a rep for the game and watch, you see

 

[Mowrt620]

A) You are actively hurting your argument by not putting it in the SSB4 thread, where people will see it
B) You're just repeating yourself over and over, and not actually providing any new arguments
C) You're not proving anything by making a moveset. A moveset can be made for pretty much anything
D) No-one thinks the Animal Crosser is impossible (To my knowledge). We're merely trying to tell you that his chances are low; he's not the shoe-in you think he is.

I fail to see why his chances are low, he seems more likely than half of the people requested for SSB4, anda for B, you guys can't come up with many reasons, so I have to repeat myself, because you can't find much on why his chances are low, douchbag. and lets just end this argument once and for all....

EDIT: Whoops double post...

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I fail to see why his chances are low, he seems more likely than half of the people requested for SSB4, anda for B, you guys can't come up with many reasons, so I have to repeat myself, because you can't find much on why his chances are low, douchbag. and lets just end this argument once and for all....

EDIT: Whoops double post...

douchebag? that was unnessecary, and just for a recap since you seem misguided about what the arguements are:

Crosser is a character based on customization and personal character choices
Animal Crossing as a game is a laid-back non-violent game (as Pieman puts it, the antithesis of Violent games)
Tom Nook has nearly equal importance and signifigant role in the game, and is not restricted by the customiztion factor
Crosser is generic (debateable)

Your arguement: He's the main character and would be cool

Also, his chances are already lowered because Sakurai has stated he does not see the Crosser fighting

 

[n88]

@Mowrt

I used to take you seriously. I KNOW you fail to see that his chances are low. That's what caused the entire argument. You have yet to come up with a single reason that Animal Crosser should be in the game other than "Animal Crossing sells well" and "He would be really cool", one of which is entirely subjective, and the other is a bad reason, not helped by you grossly exagerating its sales to DK-level. As for why he shouldn't/probably won't be in?

ITS COMPLETELY OUT OF CHARACTER FOR THE ANIMAL CROSSER TO FIGHT AND MISREPRESENTS THE GAME. THIS VIEWPOINT IS ALSO HELD BY SAKURAI. THIS IS THE ONLY REASON THAT NEEDS TO EXIST.

Also, there's the generic thing, but that's relatively minor.

Spoiler

You're really grasping at straws if obscenities are your best arguments.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I fail to see why his chances are low, he seems more likely than half of the people requested for SSB4, anda for B, you guys can't come up with many reasons, so I have to repeat myself, because you can't find much on why his chances are low, douchbag. and lets just end this argument once and for all....

EDIT: Whoops double post...

Yeah, that's the thing, you're neglecting something that the director himself has said regarding the Animal Crosser. He said that making Animal Crossing characters fight would be un-natural and even categorized them along side the Nintendogs. If anything, that's a kick in the crotch to any arguement that could be made to support the Animal Crosser. The moveset potential is there, clearly, but if the director of the game can't see or not even want to use it, then it doesn't mean jack squat. Sakurai's opinions>>>>>>>> the fans' opinions

 

[Adell]

Yeah, that's the thing, you're neglecting something that the director himself has said regarding the Animal Crosser. He said that making Animal Crossing characters fight would be un-natural and even categorized them along side the Nintendogs. If anything, that's a kick in the crotch to any arguement that could be made to support the Animal Crosser. The moveset potential is there, clearly, but if the director of the game can't see or not even want to use it, then it doesn't mean jack squat. Sakurai's opinions>>>>>>>> the fans' opinions

once that happens you know its bad

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I wouldn't say Sakurai is on to something for this. I'm not sure if you're a big fan of Sakurai or not, but I'm going to continue under the assumption that you aren't.

I don't know why you and Toise seem to "underestimate" the star power the roster has. Along with simpler executions, Smash's roster is why it has continued to sell well. Not a whole lot of fighting games benefit from both of these. Now, let's get not into which is better: Capcom fighting games or Smash, but I will say that sales do not relate to quality.

This post, especially the last sentence, says "Smash is inferior to Capcom fighting games and is only more successful because of the roster/nostalgia/etc."

Anyway, you're the one underestimating the power of the gameplay itself. Smash is incapable of coasting by on star power alone, just like, oh I don't know, every other game in existence. People are buying and still playing the game because it's fun. Yes, Nintendo characters factor into this, but Mario and Pikachu can't sell 8 million just by showing up. It has to be fun too.

Brawl easily has the most playtime out of any Wii game except Wii Sports. Turns out people know a good game when they see one. They're not ******** (cue overplayed cynical Internet response/image saying "people are dumber than you think").

 

[n88]

@Toise

Actually, I think Mario Kart Wii might beat it out. (Although yes, the point still stands)

And, since you cued....People are dumber than you might think.

 

[Mowrt620]

douchebag? that was unnessecary, and just for a recap since you seem misguided about what the arguements are:

Crosser is a character based on customization and personal character choices
Animal Crossing as a game is a laid-back non-violent game (as Pieman puts it, the antithesis of Violent games)
Tom Nook has nearly equal importance and signifigant role in the game, and is not restricted by the customiztion factor
Crosser is generic (debateable)

Your arguement: He's the main character and would be cool

Also, his chances are already lowered because Sakurai has stated he does not see the Crosser fighting

Can you stop f*cking repeating the same g*d**** things, ****, you guys say I'm repeating the same arguments, because you're bringing them up, gosh!

Anyhow, can we just find a new topic.....like a good third party or something? ****nnn

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Mowrt
We repeat things because you don't provide us with a counter. You use the same reason as an inadequet counter and then act like you gave a satisfying answer. Instead of thinking of something, or admitting that more of this is opinion based than your letting on, you simply point fingers and resort to name-calling.

@Toise
I know this probably has little effect overall, but what about the fact that people are awayed to buy a game, becaus e8 Million other copies were sold.

Person A "Hey look, It's Mario, and Pikachu, etc. etc."
Person B"yea that Super Smash"
A "Any good?"
B "Must be, it sold 8 Million copies"
A "Wow, It does sound popular"
*Purchases

I think that popularity has a lot of power as well. This applies to all sorts of things, football is a popular sport in high school, many people will attend a game even if the team is bad. Regardless of how enjoyable watching the team play is.

This is kind of like that slippery slope thing you posted a while back, Except it deals with popularity, the more pupular a game is, the less satisfying the gameplay needs to be.

/analogies

 

[Mowrt620]

Yawn, fine, whatever.....
I just figured he'd be good, and I thought people would agree, but whatever.

Any other topics?
Sora for SSB4....
Pac man....
Dig Dug....

 

[Dogboy]

"let's all argue about a game that dosen't even exist yet!!!!!"
geez, calm down.
anyway, here's what i want for ssb4:
ex moves "super specials" would be nice. They would also add to combo and damage possibilities.

Unlockable "Classic" characters. As in the mario who can damage people by stomping on them, the yoshi who can eat anything, the wario that actaually makes SOME sense, etc. etc. At least Mario's fb would become a viable damager instead of a poke.
Heck even old versions of characters (SSB64 kiby!!!) could be brought back (unlockable and semi tourney illegal, of course.)

Team attacks/ "Team specials: if ya have mario and yoshi on a team, mario should be able to ride yoshi. If you had mario and luigi together they could do their team "spin attack" from mnl: super star saga.

Some sort of use for the perfect sheild: this is basicall a 3s style parry, n it aint used enuff. I wanna see someone "full parry" a final smash!
yes this would ruin game balance and probably make fs's not so great anymore. oh well, ssb4 is still hypothetical.

 

[Mowrt620]

"let's all argue about a game that dosen't even exist yet!!!!!"
geez, calm down.
anyway, here's what i want for ssb4:
ex moves "super specials" would be nice. They would also add to combo and damage possibilities.

Unlockable "Classic" characters. As in the mario who can damage people by stomping on them, the yoshi who can eat anything, the wario that actaually makes SOME sense, etc. etc. At least Mario's fb would become a viable damager instead of a poke.
Heck even old versions of characters (SSB64 kiby!!!) could be brought back (unlockable and semi tourney illegal, of course.)

Team attacks/ "Team specials: if ya have mario and yoshi on a team, mario should be able to ride yoshi. If you had mario and luigi together they could do their team "spin attack" from mnl: super star saga.

Some sort of use for the perfect sheild: this is basicall a 3s style parry, n it aint used enuff. I wanna see someone "full parry" a final smash!
yes this would ruin game balance and probably make fs's not so great anymore. oh well, ssb4 is still hypothetical.

Eh.....that was random..

 

[Fatmanonice]

This post, especially the last sentence, says "Smash is inferior to Capcom fighting games and is only more successful because of the roster/nostalgia/etc."

Anyway, you're the one underestimating the power of the gameplay itself. Smash is incapable of coasting by on star power alone, just like, oh I don't know, every other game in existence. People are buying and still playing the game because it's fun. Yes, Nintendo characters factor into this, but Mario and Pikachu can't sell 8 million just by showing up. It has to be fun too.

Brawl easily has the most playtime out of any Wii game except Wii Sports. Turns out people know a good game when they see one. They're not ******** (cue overplayed cynical Internet response/image saying "people are dumber than you think").

I fully agree with this. You can't carry a game on star power alone. Bad games from popular franchises can sell well *points a giant foam finger at 3D Sonic games since Sonic Adventure 2* but their sales still pale in comparison to the games that are good. It's like comparing the sales of the Pokemon spinoff games to the actual adventure games. If anything, there's a line that a game from a well known franchise has to pass in terms of quality in order to break the million copies mark and a higher one for sales 2 million and above. For example, Resident Evil 5 and Mario and Sonic the Olympic games are both slightly above average but they passed that line. If anything, I look at Brawl and say that it's definately a success especially when it's been nearly two years since its original release and the game still has an active fanbase.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@n88: Nope, Brawl beats Mario Kart, at least in the US:

Mario Kart Wii
Total Time: 45,394,999 hr
Per person: 35 hr 13 min
Sample around 1,288,898 people

Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Total Time: 98,925,834 hr
Per person: 73 hr 10 min
Sample around 1,352,184 people

Smaller sample size comparatively for MKWii, but the average is probably still about the same even if you factor in the roughly double sales.


@Shino: You mean word of mouth? The sales numbers themselves aren't convincing anyone (unless maybe it's a GotY type-deal on the cover). Would you buy Nintendogs because NPD said it sold amazingly or because you like puppies? Keeping in mind of course that most people don't even know these numbers.

Anyway, it's more of a "dude, this game rules, you need to get it" sort of thing. You tell two friends, and they tell two friends, and they tell two friends, and so on. You generally recommend things you like to people and tell them to stay away from stuff that sucks. In the case of High School football, it's also a great socializing event (especially if there's stuff before/after the game). Plus you probably have friends on the team or in the band or whatever, it's good to support them even if they're awful.

 

[Big-Cat]

This post, especially the last sentence, says "Smash is inferior to Capcom fighting games and is only more successful because of the roster/nostalgia/etc."

Ay chihuahua.
Look, I'm not saying that Capcom fighters are better than Smash or anything of the sort. All I'm saying is that you can't measure quality with sales because it's never a consistent indicator.

Toise, I've already offered SmashChu this, but would you like to have a look and comment in the gameplay discussion group?

 

[n88]

@Toise

I stand corrected.

Anywho, I've been seeing a bit of support for Toon Ganondorf lately, and I thought I'd throw my two cents on him into the thread.

To me, having two Ganondorfs puts a bit too much focus on Ganondorf. He's only got three appearances in the Zelda games, and he's dead* (Granted, Zelda games are definitely not produced in chronological order, but he's still dead). IIRC, he wasn't even planned for TP, he just got put in to seduce old-time fans. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Zelda series move on with its villains, leaving Ganondorf a thing of the past, especially after seeing them pull out Bellum (rather than Vaati or Ganon/G-dorf) for Phantom Hourglass. In short, he doesn't have as big a role as Link or Zelda, and I don't think that's going to change. One Ganondorf is great. I would be angry if we didn't have that. But two Ganondorfs might be over-doing it.


*In both timelines, for those of you familiar with the chronology of the Zelda series

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Toise

I stand corrected.

Anywho, I've been seeing a bit of support for Toon Ganondorf lately, and I thought I'd throw my two cents on him into the thread.

To me, having two Ganondorfs puts a bit too much focus on Ganondorf. He's only got three appearances in the Zelda games, and he's dead* (Granted, Zelda games are definitely not produced in chronological order, but he's still dead). IIRC, he wasn't even planned for TP, he just got put in to seduce old-time fans. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Zelda series move on with its villains, leaving Ganondorf a thing of the past, especially after seeing them pull out Bellum (rather than Vaati or Ganon/G-dorf) for Phantom Hourglass. In short, he doesn't have as big a role as Link or Zelda, and I don't think that's going to change. One Ganondorf is great. I would be angry if we didn't have that. But two Ganondorfs might be over-doing it.


*In both timelines, for those of you familiar with the chronology of the Zelda series

I don't think he is dead, Ganondorf never dies. his petrified body will have the sword removed and power restored...and the Twilight ganon never really was proven dead...he's as dead as OoT Ganon was.....He'll be back or it's not Zelda...but this is Smash not Zelda so...

Ganondorf and Ganon are one in the same, Ganondorf is just the more human appearence given so he can fit in with the more graphically and story based Ocarina of Time (first appearance right?)

I'll admit he's not as important, but like you said, the other villains have been beign cut off leaving Zelda character less. Theres basically two really viable options: No new character, or Tingle (leave it be...leave it be...). Toon Ganon, however, provides a the ganon of the alternate universe (There are two timelines, and now, I feel the Cel universe and the regular universe). A new ganondorf would allow Ganondorf and T.Dorf to be different characters (something that wa smissed with Tink) and can settle the arguements over Ganondorf's moveset.

Now I will admit, he will probably not be in, almost guarenteed not to be in, but It would be cool

@Toise

D***, You got me again. Though aren't those numbers of play time a tad skewed, as they draw from a channel, which comes with online, and those with online will often play Smahs more (of course, they are still playing...)

 

[Mowrt620]

Why have two of the same villians (ganon and toon ganon) whaen you can have two different villians (ganon and vaati) plus, having vaati would help out toon link with the reppin' don't you know

And no Tingle, he was the worst character......ever, besides shnarf...

 

[Neo Exdeath]

Why have two of the same villians (ganon and toon ganon) whaen you can have two different villians (ganon and vaati) plus, having vaati would help out toon link with the reppin' don't you know

And no Tingle, he was the worst character......ever, besides shnarf...

Who the **** is shnarf?

 

[Yung Mei]

we need Billy and Jimmy Lee in the next smash bros. WE NEED THEM MORE THAN ANY OTHER CHARACTER


if we could have anime characters, Kenshiro (from fist of the north star) absolutely needs to be in the next game lol

 

[Mowrt620]

we need Billy and Jimmy Lee in the next smash bros. WE NEED THEM MORE THAN ANY OTHER CHARACTER


if we could have anime characters, Kenshiro (from fist of the north star) absolutely needs to be in the next game lol

GTFO is all I can say...

@Neo
Shnarf is just a crappy guy from thundercats, I just kinda had a random moment, whatever...

 

[Neo Exdeath]

we need Billy and Jimmy Lee in the next smash bros. WE NEED THEM MORE THAN ANY OTHER CHARACTER


if we could have anime characters, Kenshiro (from fist of the north star) absolutely needs to be in the next game lol

Have you ever played a video game before?

Yes, that was a serious question.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Who the **** is shnarf?

The annoying cat/elf/dragon hybrid from Thundercats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO3ZbQiGNkk

Regarding Toon Ganondorf, I'm against it for one of the same reasons as Paper Mario; it's still the same character, but in a different form. Toon Link is at least the reincarnation of the OoT Link, Ganondorf is the same Ganondorf in every game he appears in. Also, I seriously doubt that Ganondorf is offically dead. If Ridley can come back 5 times after being completely blown up, Ganondorf can survive getting stabbed in the heart.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Toon Ganon isn't that bad of an idea if he's an alt model/costume dealie.

As a separate character? No way. Especially if it's just to have a "real" Ganon in addition to the one we have. Not that I object to changing Ganon's moves, but there's a much better way to have both.

@Kuma: To be honest, gameplay discussion bores me compared to character discussion. Looks like there's a lot of stuff to go through there too, I probably won't get around to it. Not like you guys need me there anyway.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Toon Ganon isn't that bad of an idea if he's an alt model/costume dealie.

As a separate character? No way. Especially if it's just to have a "real" Ganon in addition to the one we have. Not that I object to changing Ganon's moves, but there's a much better way to have both.

@Kuma: To be honest, gameplay discussion bores me compared to character discussion. Looks like there's a lot of stuff to go through there too, I probably won't get around to it. Not like you guys need me there anyway.

As much As I hate Sticking Ganon's moveset somewhere else...I suppose this is the only way. I guess I could always main Tink or something >.>

I'm still not sure about Sword Ganon's actual role in the game though? Would he not be Ike? A slow- one-hitter, close range, tank?

 

[Mowrt620]

Meh, we don't need TWO ganonfdorfs anyways. Why not give LoZ another rep that isn't the same person, like Vaati or Skull Kid. Two Links is ok, i guess, but two ganondorfs is one to many...
And give regular ganon his swords, lol

 

[Yung Mei]

GTFO is all I can say...

woah, no need to get all Hostile on me. thats just my opinion, i can understand Kenshiro not being in SSB, its pretty obvious why we cant get him, but why not Billy and Jimmy?

Have you ever played a video game before?

Yes, that was a serious question.

well duh, what the hell would i be doing here if i havent

 

[Pieman0920]

I absolutly hate the idea of transfering Ganondorf's moveset over to BS, since it just seems like not being considerate for what should happen with F-Zero (aka Goroh getting the spot, or at the very least a original BS) in favor of a different series which already has several playable characters. Instead I think it would just be fine to give Ganondorf a couple new moves next time around to make him less clone-like.

In any case though, Toon Ganondorf, while awesome, doesn't seem like a smart idea because he only showed up like that in one game, which was several years ago. At this point, it just doesn't seem worth it to go back to him. If there is any technical form of Ganon that should be represented as a seperate playable character though, I would think it would be...well Ganon. You know, the giant humanoid pig with the pitchfork who shoots out flaming bats and what not. While I don't think its likely that we'll get that, I think it really is the more deserving alternate version of the character.