[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Neo Exdeath]

I understand what you're saying but Duck Hunt does get cameos from time to time, including the dog. Wasn't the dog's laughter even part of the Duck Hunt portion of the Famicom Medley song in Brawl?

Has he been a boss or playable character like R.O.B? No. Therefore, random mentions do not count. I could put up an argument for Pauline saying that she has had cameos in other games, too. Plus, everyone who has ever played Duck Hunt hates that thing.

 

[Arcadenik]

Oh, yes. Generalization. An overused yet weak logic argument. Not everyone who ever played Duck Hunt hates the dog. And besides, its been over 20 years so there's a whole new generation of gamers who, for the most part, don't know who the dog is, or where he came from, or even how he made fun of the failures of the previous generation of gamers. The dog has a clean slate now so if it appeared as a playable character, most of the new generation of gamers would either find it funny or hate it for various reasons such as "Sakurai should have added (insert favorite character here), not the dog. The game is ruined now!" And most of the older generation of gamers still butthurt from being laughed at after 20 years can finally smash it up. If you hate the dog, just smash the dog with your favorite character.

 

[Wizzerd]

Dnya Blade or Ridley seem huge and bulky.

Of course, what matters is that Sakurai can't see him being shrunk, so there's no guaruntee that he will change his mind for SSB4 despite his monstrous popularity.

Spoiler

I may have just made a Ridley debate. Sorry, but I couldn't let that go.

 

[Arcadenik]

Its almost funny but its starting to get ridiculous... almost every time I post my wish list with the dog, I end up getting into a debate over the dog. Even if I kept all 35 characters from Brawl, added back the 5 removed characters from Melee, added the most popular characters most fans wanted... I will almost always end up getting into an argument over my choice to add the dog as a playable character. Its sad, really... its been over 20 years, time to get over the teasing dog. But hey, smashing the dog around can be effective as therapy! Its cheaper, too... only one payment of $49.99 plus tax.

Regarding Ridley and Bowser's sizes. Canonically, Bowser has the natural ability to grow as big as his own castle and shrink back to his normal size (being two times bigger than Mario). It would explain why he's too big in Super Mario 64/Sunshine/Galaxy and is normal size in the majority of Mario games. Bowser can change his sizes however he pleases. But Ridley has been retconned to have always been too big. The NES game doesn't count anymore and the Melee intro happened back when the Metroid franchise was dead so Ridley had a clean slate then, meaning it was fine for Ridley to be about Samus's size. Keyword: was. But ever since the Metroid franchise was revived, its has been established that Ridley is too big. He's even bigger than before in Other M so its ridiculous to see Ridley shrunk down to Samus's size now.

 

[Neo Exdeath]

Oh, yes. Generalization. An overused yet weak logic argument. Not everyone who ever played Duck Hunt hates the dog. And besides, its been over 20 years so there's a whole new generation of gamers who, for the most part, don't know who the dog is, or where he came from, or even how he made fun of the failures of the previous generation of gamers. The dog has a clean slate now so if it appeared as a playable character, most of the new generation of gamers would either find it funny or hate it for various reasons such as "Sakurai should have added (insert favorite character here), not the dog. The game is ruined now!" And most of the older generation of gamers still butthurt from being laughed at after 20 years can finally smash it up. If you hate the dog, just smash the dog with your favorite character.

Go ask anyone if they've played duck hunt. Ask them what they feel about the dog. Also, as I said before, he's too minor to be in smash. And as for your last arguement, that is the only reason I want him in. I don't care about the new gamers part. Why? Smash advertises games. People wonder where the dog is from, play Duck Hunt, and start hating him. But doesn't matter beacuse he's never getting in. His game has been mostly forgotten, and pretty much(Look ma! No generalizations!) everyone who does remember his game hates his guts. He's not popular at all. He'll probably end up like Pichu; minor, pointless and hated.

Edit: Dang same-minute post. Well, maybe that's because no one sees him getting in.

 

[BBQTV]

XD.
It's okay. Eveybody get one.

I forgive you.

thank you for your forgiveness

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Is it too late to join in the fight for Ridley?

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I don't hate the Duck hunt dog and I played the game for a year or two on its tail end of life...but hey, I guess I'm not really a gamer, right?

 

[BBQTV]

Is it too late to join in the fight for Ridley?

thats just something minor everyones talking about some dog THAT IS NOT GETTING IN THE NEXT GAME so if you want to talk about ridley go ahead

 

[Neo Exdeath]

I don't hate the Duck hunt dog and I played the game for a year or two on its tail end of life...but hey, I guess I'm not really a gamer, right?

If you play games, you're a gamer. And as I said in previous post, most of the people hate him.

Also, I'm on the "He's not too big" side of the Ridley debate.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

For the Ridley discussion, I don't see a problem with resizing him, but I really don;t care about Metroid at all, so i wouldn;t be the least bit dissapointed if he did not make it in.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Also, I'm on the "He's not too big" side of the Ridley debate.

Thank You.

He can be resized but according to somebody Sakurai doesn't want to.

To who ever said they couldn't picture him on the ground:

Charizard says hi, he flys around.

And Ridley has shown the ability to stand/walk I'm pretty sure.

 

[Hero.]

Thank You.

He can be resized but according to somebody Sakurai doesn't want to.

To who ever said they couldn't picture him on the ground:

Charizard says hi, he flys around.

And Ridley has shown the ability to stand/walk I'm pretty sure.

He wouldn't need to walk. Standing would be just for standing and his walking/running thing could be similar to meta knights.

 

[Starphoenix]

Thank You.

He can be resized but according to somebody Sakurai doesn't want to.

To who ever said they couldn't picture him on the ground:

Charizard says hi, he flys around.

And Ridley has shown the ability to stand/walk I'm pretty sure.

Sakurai doesn't think he can be resized, look at Ridley in the Subspace Emissary, no wonder he was not playable. I know people argue say "he can be resized" but honestly I do not see it. I have seen those pictures that Drag0nscythe has on the rescaled Ridley and it only proves why he would not work. I love Ridley and supported him for Brawl but after I looked at him in Subspace it showed me why he shouldn't be playable.

Plus, even if he would fight chances are his attributes would be so bizarre he would be a pathetic character.


*waits for Ridley flame war in 3...2...1...*

 

[BBQTV]

For the Ridley discussion, I don't see a problem with resizing him, but I really don;t care about Metroid at all, so i wouldn;t be the least bit dissapointed if he did not make it in.

what he said

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Sakurai doesn't think he can be resized, look at Ridley in the Subspace Emissary, no wonder he was not playable. I know people argue say "he can be resized" but honestly I do not see it. I have seen those pictures that Drag0nscythe has on the rescaled Ridley and it only proves why he would not work. I love Ridley and supported him for Brawl but after I looked at him in Subspace it showed me why he shouldn't be playable.

Plus, even if he would fight chances are his attributes would be so bizarre he would be a pathetic character.


*waits for Ridley flame war in 3...2...1...*

The only thing you said that got me any bit mad was that he would be pathetic. He would be totally BA. If you talking about what happened to MK, that might happen but I'm not convinced.

Plus I know how people say that "I would love Ridley playable but I REALLY don't want to see him get beat up by Jigglypuff, so I don't want him."
Well I like Ike, Marth, Ganondorf, Link, and others because they're kinda epic/BA so it's not fun to watch them get beat up by Jiggs either (when it happens)

 

[Arcadenik]

Neo Exdeath, do you have a personal vendetta against the dog? Really, its time to get over your hatred already. He's just a fictional video game character.

And I don't need to ask anyone how they feel about the dog. I read forums. I find fans who hate the dog. I find fans who love to hate the dog. I find fans who love the dog. I find fans, other than yourself, who don't want the dog in Smash. I find fans, other than myself, who want the dog in Smash.

Anyone who is not Sakurai should not say "(insert character here) will / will never be in Smash". So far, we know Sakurai implied or said that Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, Excitebike, Urban Champion, Sukapon, Nintendogs, Animal Crossing characters, Miis, and any third party characters who was never on a Nintendo console would never be in Smash.

 

[Big-Cat]

Sakurai doesn't think he can be resized, look at Ridley in the Subspace Emissary, no wonder he was not playable. I know people argue say "he can be resized" but honestly I do not see it. I have seen those pictures that Drag0nscythe has on the rescaled Ridley and it only proves why he would not work. I love Ridley and supported him for Brawl but after I looked at him in Subspace it showed me why he shouldn't be playable.

Plus, even if he would fight chances are his attributes would be so bizarre he would be a pathetic character.


*waits for Ridley flame war in 3...2...1...*

Actually, if you read the interviews, it seems more like making Ridley playable never crossed Sakurai's mind in the first place. He also mentions that he may be willing to do it next time, but says that he would be a little slow and if that was okay with us.

 

[Neo Exdeath]

No, I just dislike the dog. Sorry if I have to like every single video game character. Plus you can say that some characters will never be in smash because of common sense. For example, it's common sense that, say, Wrinkly Kong will never be in smash. She's like the dog- no moveset potential. However, I have been forced to eat my words in the past (R. O. B.), so we'll have to wait til' 4 to see what the jury says on the dog.

Edit: This is to Arcadenik.

 

[BG3]

Sakurai doesn't think he can be resized, look at Ridley in the Subspace Emissary, no wonder he was not playable. I know people argue say "he can be resized" but honestly I do not see it. I have seen those pictures that Drag0nscythe has on the rescaled Ridley and it only proves why he would not work. I love Ridley and supported him for Brawl but after I looked at him in Subspace it showed me why he shouldn't be playable.

Plus, even if he would fight chances are his attributes would be so bizarre he would be a pathetic character.


*waits for Ridley flame war in 3...2...1...*

Who had that huge post in their sig defending Ridley? It would be useful to bring that out now? Anyways, like many have said already, Ridley can definitely be resized. Bowser was much bigger than Mario in games like Super Mario 64, similar to Ridley in Brawl. Bowser also appeared to be normal-sized in games like Super Mario Bros., similar to Ridley in the original Metroid and in Melee's intro. Same with Mewtwo, canon-wise he is at least 6 feet. He is much taller than Pikachu, but if you look at them in Melee, his size is barely bigger than Pika's at all, he might even be a little shorter. Sakruai can definitely see Ridley being resized, he already did it with other characters. For example, Olimar in his games is as big as a quarter, obviously he was resized. So there is no reason as to why it can't be done for Ridley too.

One of the biggest arguments besides size against Ridley is how bizarre his moveset would be. For this argument, I simply point to R.0.B. and G&W. Their movesets are beyond bizarre. Also, it would even be harder to think of their movesets than Ridley. Ridley has appeared in many more games and can fit the same size issue as Bowser. And obviously, we know that he can fight. Seriously, R.O.B. didn't even appear in a game to start with, and G&W was rarely existant as a character until Smash came up, let alone being able to fight. That;s another good argument, R.O.B. and G&W never fought at all, beleive me when I say that it would be MUCH easier to think of a moveset for Ridley.

He's popular, we have seen him fight, his wings can work similar to the characters that already have them in Brawl, and size can be issued the same way for Bowser and Mewtwo. If you compared him to someone like R.O.B. or G&W who happens to be very unpopular compared to Ridley, we have almost never seen them fight, thinking a moveset for them would be very diffucult itself due to the previous things I just mentioned which don't apply to Ridley at all. Ridley should be a shoe in for SSB4. If he doesn't get in, than Sakurai probably just hates the series, maybe explaining the shaft it's had for the past three games.

 

[Wizzerd]

If he doesn't get in, than Sakurai probably just hates the series, maybe explaining the shaft it's had for the past three games.

I totally agree with you on Ridley, but to be fair, outside of him Metroid isn't really getting the shaft. It has two stages, an item, an AT and is the only series with multiple SSE bosses (Lots of series don't have a boss at all).

 

[n88]

@BG3

1) Metroid has not been getting any shaft. SSB64 came out when Metroid was going through a hiatus. Samus had only three games, and her last one was five years before. Melee was released before the series got going again. At the time of Brawl's release, Metroid was going strong, so it got an extra character, two new stages, an AT, a bunch of trophies, and two bosses. Where's the shaft?

2) ROB was playable in Mario Kart DS.

drag0nscythe had the Ridley defense post. As to the arguments about movesets, here is a good check list for people. This checklist includes everything necessary for a character to have a moveset.

Arms

When comparing Ridley to this criteria, YES! he could be in Smash.

 

[BG3]

I totally agree with you on Ridley, but to be fair, outside of him Metroid isn't really getting the shaft. It has two stages, an item, an AT and is the only series with multiple SSE bosses (Lots of series don't have a boss at all).

Well, I'm going into detail, like the how its stages seem to be of less quality than other stages of different series. You may be right that he doesn't hate the series, but it hasn't been getting the rep. that it deserves as one of Nintendo's best franchises.

 

[Neo Exdeath]

The reason why Metroid is getting the shaft is because it's hated in Japan. It's as simple as that. Sakurai listens to what his Japanese audience wants, and he listens to them only. It's also the reason why Mother has 2 reps.

 

[n88]

*Facepalms*

JUST BECAUSE SOMEETHING IS NOT EXACTLY THE WAY YOU WANT IT, THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU SHOULD BLAME THE JAPANESE.

Please look at this timeline:

Note how insignificant Metroid was at the time of SSB64 and Melee's releases.(1999 and 2001, respectively)

Metroid's (And Ridley's, as well) popularity is a pretty recent development. METROID NEVER GOT SHAFTED

 

[Arcadenik]

Compare Wrinkly Kong to the Duck Hunt dog. Wrinkly Kong is a major recurring supporting character in the Donkey Kong series. A series where there are more important characters than her like Dixie Kong and King K. Rool. The dog is practically the unofficial mascot of Duck Hunt. A series where there are no other characters besides the ducks so the dog practically have no competition.

Anyone have moveset potential. Lets look at why Sakurai said or implied that the characters I mentioned earlier wouldn't be in Smash.

Balloon Fighter - Sakurai said he would be useless after his balloons pop (problem: not practical)

Bubbles - Sakurai said she wouldn't be a good fighter if she is constantly moving around like in Clu Clu Land (problem: not practical)

Excitebike - Sakurai implied that he wouldn't work as a practical fighter if he is fighting on his motorcycle (problem: not practical)

Urban Champion - Sakurai said he doesn't offer anything interesting to Smash (problem: not interesting)

Nintendogs - Sakurai said a puppy fighting in Smash would not look right (problem: out of character)

Animal Crossing characters - Sakurai implied they are too peaceful to be fighting in Smash (problem: out of character)

Sakurai even said Mr. Saturn won't be in Smash because he has no arms, implying that a character needs to have limbs (or at least arms in R.O.B.'s case) in order to fight in Smash.

 

[Neo Exdeath]

True, but look at how significant it was in the years leading up to brawl. Corruption was released in 2007. And I was replying to BG3. Plus, Super Metroid was always popular. And I'm not blaming it on the Japanese, either. I'm just saying that might be a reason why it doesn't have many reps. Well, there's ZSS, who everyone seems to forget about, though.

Edit: Dang, I have to fight two people at once. The dog won't be in because all he does it pick up ducks and laugh. As I said in one of my earlier posts, I may be forced to eat my words if Sakurai does something like what he did to R.O.B. But until then, I honestly don't care if he's duck hunt's mascot, he probably won't get in. Note how I say "probably".

EDIT 2: I found your argument's Achilles Heel. If Sakurai said it would be wrong havig a Nintendog being in smash and it would weird for a dog to fight in smash, then why would the Duck Hunt dog get in?

Edit 3: Okay, I have seen movesets made out of Bubbles and Baloon Fighter in MYM, but I still can't see the dog's potential.

 

[n88]

@Arcadenik

I'm pretty sure that thing about the balloons was a joke. Anyway, by moveset potential, I mean that a moveset could be made for any given character. Not that they belonged in Smash. Wizzerd made a Bubbles moveset, I'm pretty sure, and I've seen a Mach Rider set in which MR stayed on his cycle.

Whatever it is, it's doable if they've got arms. A good idea? Not necessarily. But still possible.

 

[BBQTV]

the dog is not going in but wasn't just a wishlist?

 

[Wizzerd]

Well, I'm going into detail, like the how its stages seem to be of less quality than other stages of different series. You may be right that he doesn't hate the series, but it hasn't been getting the rep. that it deserves as one of Nintendo's best franchises.

Less quality? I don't see how the Metroid stages are of less quality. They may not be neutral or anything but they are interesting and fun to play on. In any case, I don't think that Metroid isn't getting represented enough as much as it isn't being represented right. Stages and ATs are fine and good but everybody wants Ridley instead.

EDIT: And yeah, I made a Bubbles moveset linked to in my signature, but it's an MYM set so I'm afraid it isn't so realistic. If Bubbles became playable maybe it could just be translated as horrible traction. Also, I thought Bubbles was brushed off for not knowing how to fight...

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Dang BG3 you got some good points on your side (which I think is also my side). Ridley has appeared in most if not every Metroid game in the series. And he has great moveset potential. He could even have a ZSS Meta Ridley. But the slot would just say Ridley.

 

[BG3]

*Facepalms*

JUST BECAUSE SOMEETHING IS NOT EXACTLY THE WAY YOU WANT IT, THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU SHOULD BLAME THE JAPANESE.

Please look at this timeline:

Note how insignificant Metroid was at the time of SSB64 and Melee's releases.(1999 and 2001, respectively)

Metroid's (And Ridley's, as well) popularity is a pretty recent development. METROID NEVER GOT SHAFTED

Metroid still didn't get proper representation at all in Brawl. Compare the series to the Kirby series in Brawl, and then tell me it didn't get shafted. Metroid is on equal footing if not above the Kirby series, yet it comes no where near close to how much content the Kirby series has. The Kirby series even has the quality point going for them, while Metroid doesn't(E.g. music, characters). Kirby doesn't deserve more than half the things Sakurai gave him. Also, Neo Exdeath is right to some point. Sakurai could care less about American fans compared to the Japanese fans. The official polls and things he allows are only available for the Japanese, part of the roster is sometimes only concerning the Japanese. Case in point, JigglyPuff and Marth.

@Wizzerd: Please allow to me to clarify. In every single smash game, Metroid is always getting some level that involves acid/lava or any other type of dangerous substance. I can probably guarnatee that SSB4 will have something similar. However, as many of the Metroid fans know, there is much more to discover and explore in the exciting sci-fi world of Metroid, is there not? People that only play Smash proabably think Metroid is mainly about lava or acid or whatever. The only stages of Metroid that I liked were Planet Zebes 64(IMO, best version) and Brinstar Depths because it brought something new to the table and included a kicka** return of a cool boss character, also the music for the stage just kicked a**. The reason why I don't like Norfair of Brinstar too much is only because it just seemed to be lazily though up of, practically like a rehashed version of a stage that doesn't even represent the stage too well(LMAO, lava wave?).

Some might also ask then why I don't like Frigate Orpheon. Well plainly because that stage was just very poorly designed and has barely anything going for it. Really, it's just a worse version of Brinstar Depths. The stage turns, the Parasite Queen is in the background, not as big as Brinstar Depths was, the music for some of it kind of sucks too IMO. They could've really made Ridley's theme better than that couldn't they? If DDD can have a good theme, then Ridley sure as hell should to. Basically, Sakurai knows little about Metroid, and just repeats the same pattern over and over with each Smash game concerning Metroid content. It doesn't quite please Metroid fans because of it, so maybe have Metroid's developer help Sakurai with the content? That seems kind of like a good idea to have all developers of their respective games be equal to Sakurai's position so all get represented equally.

 

[Wizzerd]

Case in point, JigglyPuff and Marth.

Jigglypuff was originally added not out of bias towards the Japanese, but because the original SSB was only going to be released in Japan until it become a runaway success, so there isn't any bias against anyone here. Marth I can't argue with.

 

[Neo Exdeath]

Honestly, I remember reading that Sakurai thought that Melee would be Japan-only too. Case in Point: Roy.

 

[n88]

@BG3

(As an interesting point, some of Sakurai's journal entries seem to indicate that Jiggly is hated on the other side of the Pacific as well as in the US. But that's beside the point.)

1) Kirby has over twice the sales of Metroid
2) Kirby has more characters that play important roles

So it's fine for Kirby to have more characters (IMO).

Metroid had very little appearance on the Melee polls (One of in not the biggest deciding factor for Brawl's roster), while Dedede and Meta Knight did very well.

Since the extras were based on the Brawl polls, Metroid got a lot of trophies (There are what? seven rophies of Samus?) and three stages. Most likely scenario: Sakurai didn't know about Metroid's popularity until it was too late. Expect a good showing in SSB4.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Metroid still didn't get proper representation at all in Brawl. Compare the series to the Kirby series in Brawl, and then tell me it didn't get shafted. Metroid is on equal footing if not above the Kirby series, yet it comes no where near close to how much content the Kirby series has. The Kirby series even has the quality point going for them, while Metroid doesn't(E.g. music, characters). Kirby doesn't deserve more than half the things Sakurai gave him. Also, Neo Exdeath is right to some point. Sakurai could care less about American fans compared to the Japanese fans. The official polls and things he allows are only available for the Japanese, part of the roster is sometimes only concerning the Japanese. Case in point, JigglyPuff and Marth.

Facts:

12 songs for Metroid
13 songs for Kirby

2 characters for Metroid
3 characters for Kirby

2 bosses for Metroid
0 bosses for Kirby

3 stages for Metroid
2 stages for Kirby

1 item for Metroid
5 items for Kirby

Another fact:

Kirby series lifetime sales: 30+ million
Metroid series lifetime sales: 14+ million

There are only two series who got shafted in Brawl, and Metroid isn't one of them. Ridley aside, everything was perfect.

 

[Neo Exdeath]

^ Pray tell, what two series are they?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

 

[n88]

Thank God for Toise.

I love me some Metroid, but it is not getting shafted in any way, shape, or form. I'll admit, it could use a sage w/o lava or acid, but that's not much of a complaint.

 

[Neo Exdeath]

To be fair, F-Zero was never really popular. It only deserves one more rep. DK is way underrepresented.