[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Red Arremer]

Well that's that. I'm convinced now.

She must be in SSB4.

y35 and 1yn, cu5 sh3 ha5 b00b5, t00

 

[flyinfilipino]

Besides, be honest, when's the last time you played a good starfox game? Starfox 64 right? Before that, when had you last played a good starfox game? Be honest. Never, right? So why on earth do you think a lame *** character from a disappointment of a game should be in Smash Bros, but the characters of the Donkey Kong series, of which there are 4 great games, do not deserve to be in Smash Bros?

I never played Star Fox 64 and my first Star Fox game was Star Fox Adventures, yet I became a Star Fox fan anyway. Just sayin'.

"Krystal haters" seem a lot more like "Krystal fan haters".

"omg K. Rool haz to be in becuz he haz teh gunz and he iz importunt!" (K. ROOL IS MANDATORY!)

"ridley deservez to be in becuz everyone else sez so and he lookz badazz. i dun even rly likez him, but everyone else sez i has to."

"so-and-so is lame because I don't like them. Therefore, you are ******** for wanting them in the game. Let's make fun of you for it!"

 

[Red Arremer]

You're wrong in judging my intentions. If it were like that, I still would post against Geno, since I hate him and I think he is overrated. But I don't do that anymore, because the Geno supporters have given me valid reasons as to why Geno would make a possible and/or good addition to the Smash roster.

I don't make fun of Krystal fans, I try to argue her "worth" as an addition. Star Fox is one of Nintendo's smaller and weaker franchises, it's not even in the Top 10 of sells.
Metroid and Donkey Kong ARE, though, and only have 1(1/2) respective 2 representatives for their series, whereas Star Fox has 3. Three! The same amount of characters that Kirby has, one of the 10 best-selling franchises from Nintendo. One character less than Mario, Pokémon and Zelda have, the 3 BEST selling franchises from Nintendo.

To take your character examples...

As much as I dislike Donkey Kong as a series and its characters, I still see a reason for K. Rool or any other character like Dixie to be included. Donkey Kong is the friggin 4th best selling franchise of Nintendo!

I also don't support Ridley because everyone says so, I support Ridley because he's
a.) The second-most important character to the Metroid series (one of Nintendo's 10 best selling franchises, to remind you) next to Samus - especially as he is the one who killed Samus' parents.
b.) The only character appearing in (almost) every game in this or that form
and c.) REALLY has the chances of recieving a unique moveset.

All that Krystal has speaking for her is that she is female. That she uses a staff in 1 (!) game does not justify her to be completely unique - there are many other rod-users among the several Nintendo franchises. The tons of spear-users in the Fire Emblem series only being one possibility. Not to mention that this fact will NOT guarantee that Krystal WOULD use the staff IF she would be included.

What I dislike the most is people going "Ooo, but Falco and/or Wolf are clones!". Well, you know, Specials and Final Smash don't make a complete character. Wolf is even more different to Fox than Falco is. And Falco is a LOT different to Fox. Yet I don't hear anyone whining about how Toon Link is virtually the same character using, omg, Triforce Slash!

Also, Falco was supposed to have an Arwing as Final Smash, but due to the time constraints the developers weren't able to completely finish it. Leftover data proves this. As soon as I'm home I can provide you with a video.

Even all of these factors aside, I still would buy SSB4. I would buy it even if they dropped Wolf and included Krystal instead, and added Geno, though without adding Ridley.
My disgust of this blue wh0re is not as big as that I'd let myself take the fun the Smash series be taken away. I will argue and complain about her, yes, but I will continue playing Smash. Dropping the series because it hasn't Ridley in it or still neglects F-Zero so blatantly (which is in my case the most important thing roster-wise) would be dumb.

Be honest, filipino: Would you drop SSB4 because there's no Krystal in it? Would you stop playing a series you enjoy because of one little minor fact? No?
Don't you agree that argumenting to not buy SSB4 because of something small like that - 1 character addition/removal - is dumb?

I would say the same if someone said: I will not buy SSB4 if it doesn't have Lip/Isaac/Geno/K.Rool/Ridley/Potatoes in it. It's not bound to Krystal, it's bound to idiocy.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

There's a difference between resizing and rescaling, though. Ridley's not too big - no one is - but go look at Brawl and imagine what he'd look like at a smaller size.

I'm not saying it's impossible for him to get in (although I doubt it) but that's a poor strawman.

It can clearly work if the developers put enough effort into it. They were successful with Charizard, so I can't see why they can't do the same with Ridley too.

 

[flyinfilipino]

@Spadefox: (Can I call you Spayd? lol) Of course I'd still be interested in buying Smash Bros. even if Krystal wasn't in (she's not the reason I didn't get Brawl, I promise!). I know she's just another character and there's lots of other fun stuff in the game.

Now that that's clear, I realize that popularity can be closely tied to game sales, but look at Mother. That franchise is really under the radar and yet has two (!) characters that are still qite similar to each other. I'm not trying to use that as a justification for Star Fox having 3+ characters, though. In fact, I don't really care how many "reps" "deserve" to be in or anything. I'm fine with any character and don't dislike anyone.

So now I'm back to defending my liking of Krystal. You may say she's linked to the downfall of the franchise, but that doesn't really affect me for reasons I'm sure you know already. Yes, part of the reason I like her is because she's female, but that's because it's part of what makes her different from the rest of the Star Fox cast, which is why I like her as a character. I like the sensitivity she brings to the cast (or Fox, at least). I don't have the hots for her at all or anything. Krystal's magic rod was a major plot device in one game. Same as Bowser Jr.'s paintbrush, really, but everyone continues to assume he'd probably use it profusely, and despite the fact that he barely has anything else to pull from, nobody whines because he's part of the reputable Mario franchise.

So bottom line is, I just like Krystal as a character because she's a big part of what made me like Star Fox in the first place, and I want to see her in Smash Bros., no matter how much hate toward a minor character from a minor franchise anyone may throw at me. Is that so wrong? Am I an idiot? "Character hate" just leads to people having to defend themselves by bringing up facts or opinions that probably aren't going to sway the opposing party anyway.

That Falco/Arwing thing is interesting though.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Star Fox has 3 reps already. Fox, Falco and Wolf. Given tweaking and slight modifications, all three can be even more unique then they are now.

When I think about adding reps, I mainly look at the series that have the least amount of reps and say "Does this series deserve 1 more rep?" If so, I give that series priority. I did the same with the big three (Mario, Zelda and Pokemon.) Did they deserve a new rep. Pokemon does. The only reason why I add more than one on my list was because I honestly want every character to return in the next smash (even Pichu.)

Then once the least rep-ed series have a new rep, and the big three do, I go to the middle ground and adding new series to the list.

If you take all this into account, it is very hard to justify another SF rep (but I am sure it can be done.) Three is a good number for the series. Unfortunately, Krystal did not make the cut. She lost her chance to wolf. Because of that, her only real option (as well as other SF characters) is joining Andross in the AT hall of fame.

 

[Red Arremer]

@Spadefox: (Can I call you Spayd? lol) Of course I'd still be interested in buying Smash Bros. even if Krystal wasn't in (she's not the reason I didn't get Brawl, I promise!). I know she's just another character and there's lots of other fun stuff in the game.

No you can't, but you can call me Spade. And see, that was what I was argueing against. That was the actual reason I even posted in here, and I probably will leave this thread alone after this post because the views of several people in here are just... causing the urge to vomit in me. And that's not (only) the stuff about Krystal. I know you are a major supporter and I know you are "always there when Spadefox flames Krystal", but you also know that I will not accept her as a valid addition.

Now that that's clear, I realize that popularity can be closely tied to game sales, but look at Mother. That franchise is really under the radar and yet has two (!) characters that are still qite similar to each other. I'm not trying to use that as a justification for Star Fox having 3+ characters, though. In fact, I don't really care how many "reps" "deserve" to be in or anything. I'm fine with any character and don't dislike anyone.

I think Lucas is in Brawl for the same reason Ike is in, and the same reason Roy and Pichu were in Melee: To advertise the games they hail from. Ness was in SSB64 as a surprise character, the type of characters MasterWarlord tends to call "shock character". And he's in Brawl because he's one of the original 12. As much as I love Mother, I disagree with Lucas' inclusion, but I am happy to see Mother getting recognition this much. Lucas and Ness are just like Fox and Wolf, though - their moves aside from Specials and Final Smash are absolutely different.
I also don't care about the "deserving" "reps", but I think that having 3+ characters from such a minor and not even THAT well-known franchise as Star Fox is blatantly neglecting series which haven't recieved an altered roster since SSB64 (F-Zero and Metroid, namely).

So now I'm back to defending my liking of Krystal. You may say she's linked to the downfall of the franchise, but that doesn't really affect me for reasons I'm sure you know already. Yes, part of the reason I like her is because she's female, but that's because it's part of what makes her different from the rest of the Star Fox cast, which is why I like her as a character. I like the sensitivity she brings to the cast (or Fox, at least). I don't have the hots for her at all or anything. Krystal's magic rod was a major plot device in one game. Same as Bowser Jr.'s paintbrush, really, but everyone continues to assume he'd probably use it profusely, and despite the fact that he barely has anything else to pull from, nobody whines because he's part of the reputable Mario franchise.

I don't like Bowser Jr. either, but mainly because he stole the Koopalings' spotlight. I don't care as to why you like Krystal, even if it were only because she gives you a boner. You know I don't like her for being more of a Mary-Sue than Mary-Sue herself.

So bottom line is, I just like Krystal as a character because she's a big part of what made me like Star Fox in the first place, and I want to see her in Smash Bros., no matter how much hate toward a minor character from a minor franchise anyone may throw at me. Is that so wrong? Am I an idiot? "Character hate" just leads to people having to defend themselves by bringing up facts or opinions that probably aren't going to sway the opposing party anyway.

I accept that you like Krystal, but I still haven't heard one valid point as to why she would make such a great addition except her gender.

That Falco/Arwing thing is interesting though.

I guess that means I should get you the vid, then? When I'm at home, I will send it to you via Visitor Message or something.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I accept that you like Krystal, but I still haven't heard one valid point as to why she would make such a great addition except her gender.

If you decide to ignore all of the other factors involving her as a character, then she has a wicked magic staff she'd be able to wield. Come on, a wicked magic staff!! Krystal or not, you know you'd want to see how that'd look in Smash.

 

[ChronoBound]

What makes Krystal so special, apart from the fact that she's female, a new character, and scantily clad?

You just hit the nail on the head.

I say we ship the furries off to an island full of real hot scantily clad women. Once they get a taste of real women, they'll never go back to animals again.

 

[Red Arremer]

If you decide to ignore all of the other factors involving her as a character, then she has a wicked magic staff she'd be able to wield. Come on, a wicked magic staff!! Krystal or not, you know you'd want to see how that'd look in Smash.

This staff she only used in Star Fox Adventures, though. She didn't use it in Assault or Command. There she was yet another random pilot flying with a ship. Woo.

As said, the fact she used that staff doesn't mean she definitely would get it if she was included. Besides, I would prefer a Fire Emblem character using a spear over Krystal.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I will never understand Sakurai's insistence that a character from Animal Crossing won't fight and therefor fit in Brawl. Mostly for the facts that several of the characters in Brawl don't make any sense fighting (R.O.B. and Mr. Game & Watch, for example) and the fact that in Wild World Tom Nook admits to having been in a fight club. And he never lost a match to boot.

Mr. Game & Watch has fought before. Remember Boxing? Arguably ROB has also fought (as much as Mario could be considered a fighter in the original Donkey Kong).

But using one joke line as justification for Tom Nook being a fighter character doesn't make much sense.

see heres the thing, luigi is pretty much exactly the amount of clone to mario as wolf or falco is to fox, why don't you understand that?

Right about Wolf, but Falco's not that unique. He has more unique moves than the people who are basically straight clones (Ganondorf and Toon Link) but less than the ones like Wolf or Lucas.

Knuckles and Tails. They would own. Everyone knows how knuckles would fight, and tails would use a mixture of sonic's fighting style, while using machines in the middle of that.

Does Sonic need three characters? It's a guest franchise.

If it gets three characters, shouldn't Metal Gear get extras too?

I think Lucas is in Brawl for the same reason Ike is in, and the same reason Roy and Pichu were in Melee: To advertise the games they hail from. Ness was in SSB64 as a surprise character, the type of characters MasterWarlord tends to call "shock character". And he's in Brawl because he's one of the original 12. As much as I love Mother, I disagree with Lucas' inclusion, but I am happy to see Mother getting recognition this much. Lucas and Ness are just like Fox and Wolf, though - their moves aside from Specials and Final Smash are absolutely different.

That's definitely not true. Ness wasn't in as a surprise character - he was in because of the popularity of his game. Remember that the original Smash was, at some point, planned to be Japan-only. And since Mother 3 has become the most popular of the Mother series, it doesn't make sense for Ness to be included but not Lucas.

 

[flyinfilipino]

This staff she only used in Star Fox Adventures, though. She didn't use it in Assault or Command. There she was yet another random pilot flying with a ship. Woo.

As said, the fact she used that staff doesn't mean she definitely would get it if she was included. Besides, I would prefer a Fire Emblem character using a spear over Krystal.

I accept that she only used it in one game. If Krystal does make it somehow, I guess we'll see if that matters or not. (Same with Bowser Jr.)

FLUDD looks like a Sunshine-only device, so we'll see if Mario keeps that in his moveset in the future as well.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I accept that she only used it in one game. If Krystal does make it somehow, I guess we'll see if that matters or not. (Same with Bowser Jr.)

FLUDD looks like a Sunshine-only device, so we'll see if Mario keeps that in his moveset in the future as well.

Fludd was a Sunshine only item. That is one reason why people were mad that Mario had it. As for Krystal's staff, she should use it. It is her signature weapon from SFA and was supposed to be her primary weapon in the game before it was turned into SFA.

 

[ChronoBound]

Fludd was a Sunshine only item. That is one reason why people were mad that Mario had it. As for Krystal's staff, she should use it. It is her signature weapon from SFA and was supposed to be her primary weapon in the game before it was turned into SFA.

We should have let Rare keep Krystal.

 

[IxxI]

in the next ssb i think we should have master chief

 

[drag0nscythe]

We should have let Rare keep Krystal.

She was a decent addition to the SF crew. Besides, Fox would have gotten a female counterpart along the way anyways.

I think she was a good addition to the series, but not worthy for brawl.

 

[ChronoBound]

She was a decent addition to the SF crew. Besides, Fox would have gotten a female counterpart along the way anyways.

I think she was a good addition to the series, but not worthy for brawl.

There was already a female addition, Katt. All Krystal did was bring all the furries to the yard.

 

[drag0nscythe]

There was already a female addition, Katt. All Krystal did was bring all the furries to the yard.

I see no problem with that. If Katt had more of a role in SF, she would have done the same thing.

Besides, Katt is for Falco, not for the main Hero, Fox.

 

[Darknid]

in the next ssb i think we should have master chief

Please tell me you're joking.

 

[flyinfilipino]

There was already a female addition, Katt. All Krystal did was bring all the furries to the yard.

I'm not a furry, so, yeah, that's not entirely true. Besides, Katt wasn't on the Star Fox team.

 

[ChronoBound]

I'm not a furry, so, yeah, that's not entirely true. Besides, Katt wasn't on the Star Fox team.

Krystal has not done anything to warrant becoming playable. Star Fox has done nothing to warrant a fourth playable characte, heck a third character is already questionable.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Krystal has not done anything to warrant becoming playable. Star Fox has done nothing to warrant a fourth playable characte, heck a third character is already questionable.

Okay sure.

What if there's an amazing Star Fox game in the future, though? In fact, what if it sells really well?

 

[drag0nscythe]

Krystal has not done anything to warrant becoming playable. Star Fox has done nothing to warrant a fourth playable characte, heck a third character is already questionable.

I've said that.
She does not need to be playable. An AT would be perfect. As for the SF 3 rep. The series can have three reps. Most series should have 3 reps. SF just got to its total faster than the others.

 

[AndrewAshmaric]

I've said that.
She does not need to be playable. An AT would be perfect. As for the SF 3 rep. The series can have three reps. Most series should have 3 reps. SF just got to its total faster than the others.

Don't forget the popularity of anthropomorphic characters though And seriously, we need more feminine characters as well, so either Katt or Krystal would be okay IMO...
Why not 5 reps for most series? I mean, they are enough characters left who represent their franchise quite well, some might be even better than the ones that are in the games right now.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Don't forget the popularity of anthropomorphic characters though And seriously, we need more feminine characters as well, so either Katt or Krystal would be okay IMO...
Why not 5 reps for most series? I mean, they are enough characters left who represent their franchise quite well, some might be even better than the ones that are in the games right now.

Space is why 5 is not an option.

If we take the top main series Nintendo has

Mario
Zelda
Pokemon
SF
Metroid
F-zero
Fire Emblem
Donkey Kong

- That is 40 characters right there from main series. It leaves very little space for other smaller series. I do agree that we need more female characters, but SF is out of luck unless you remove Falco or Wolf, both of which are more important than Krystal in SF.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

This staff she only used in Star Fox Adventures, though. She didn't use it in Assault or Command. There she was yet another random pilot flying with a ship. Woo.

As said, the fact she used that staff doesn't mean she definitely would get it if she was included. Besides, I would prefer a Fire Emblem character using a spear over Krystal.

Don't forget the fact that Leon is apparently more popular than Krystal.

 

[ChronoBound]

Don't forget the fact that Leon is apparently more popular than Krystal.

In Japan, Leon (and even Slippy) are more popular than Krystal. Outside Japan, not so much.

 

[DekuBoy]

I don't want characters like Bowser Jr or Krystal because the SSB series is meant to showcase their mascots and Snake and Sonic. Mario has 4 reps, that is enough. We need heroes, sidekicks and villains. Two sidekicks max, and one villain for each series. FE and Mother however, take on a new cast of characters frequently and to have the likes of Ness, Lucas and Claus would be poor representation of the series. Ness and Lucas should be the only two reps with Ninten and Claus alt costumes.

On another point which (if any) Pokemon character should be out in the next game? I say Lucario.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I've said that. Most series should have 3 reps. SF just got to its total faster than the others.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel. It's not that Star Fox is over-represented, it's that other series look under-represented in comparison (mainly F-Zero and Metroid).

In Japan, Leon (and even Slippy) are more popular than Krystal. Outside Japan, not so much.

I wasn't really aware of this, but if it's true (and I see no reason to doubt you), there's a very strong case for Fox, Falco, and Wolf being the only Star Fox characters.

On another point which (if any) Pokemon character should be out in the next game? I say Lucario.

I feel Lucario is only in danger of being cut if he doesn't have staying power. If his popularity doesn't drop signficantly, he'll probably stay.

None of the other Pokemon characters should be in danger, though (and this includes the trainer's Pokemon).

 

[Dokutayuu]

Dekuboy, Lucario is the most likely character to be dropped for the next kung-fu/psychic pokemon.

Another Star Fox character isn't likely (it wouldn't bother me if one was added though), when I first heard of SSB64, the only characters I didn't know was Fox.

Anyway, who do you think will be the next MK?

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Why would you say that? The idea that Pokemon is going to have a "rotating character slot" that Mewtwo and Lucario belong(ed) to is flawed, especially since Mewtwo was planned for Brawl for a while.

 

[DekuBoy]

Well it seems odd that as soon as we have a second gen Pkmn (Pichu) he's out for a fourth. How long will this Pokemon related madness last?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Why would you say that? The idea that Pokemon is going to have a "rotating character slot" that Mewtwo and Lucario belong(ed) to is flawed, especially since Mewtwo was planned for Brawl for a while.

Unfortunately, Mewtwo blew it big time since a lot of people consider it to be the worst fighter in Melee.

 

[justaway12]

Anyway, who do you think will be the next MK?

ummm....metaknight i still think he will be top but with slight nerfs

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Well it seems odd that as soon as we have a second gen Pkmn (Pichu) he's out for a fourth.

Not really. He had little staying power (and in a way, he was directly "replaced' next generation by Plusle and Minum, who were also planned for Bralwl at some point).

Unfortunately, Mewtwo blew it big time since a lot of people consider it to be the worst fighter in Melee.

That's not really relevant to whether or not he should have come back in Brawl or whether he should in the future, though (and it shouldn't be).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

That's not really relevant to whether or not he should have come back in Brawl or whether he should in the future, though (and it shouldn't be).

You do have a point there. Thing is, the playable Pokemon roster can't stick with only 1st generation Pokemon.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I don't really disagree with that, but the "problem" is that for the most part, first-generation characters (the three in Brawl and maybe Mewtwo in the future) have precedence over anything else unless you make more trainers, which would end up giving Pokemon a ton of movesets (since the second and third generations barely have anything of note, and the fourth gen really only has Lucario). Assuming that nothing Smash-worthy comes out of the generations before SSB4 (which could happen - look at the third-gen), what happens?

I don't think it's really a bad thing that the first-gen dominates Smash's Pokemon lineup, though. If it's still what most people recognize, why shouldn't it get several characters?

 

[Red Arremer]

Plusle and Minum, who were also planned for Bralwl at some point..

Gotta debunk this, 'cause I'm awesome like that and one of those guys who actually saw the character data.

Following:
Plusle & Minun is not a given. In fact, I doubt it was supposed to be Plusle & Minun.

The character folder everyone of you guys references to is called (if I remember correctly)"pra_min".
First assumption was that it was Plusle & Minun, because their Japanese start out like that - was a lot of speculation about that one. Others were of course obvious ("mewtwo", "roy"), but "pra_min" wasn't. Because there was no evidence pointing towards the two rats.

Actually, translated, this word also can mean "Random".

Make your own conclusions about this one.

Now, I'll really stay outta the topic.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Actually, it was "pra_mai", not "pra_min".

Also, I'm very sure that it doesn't mean random. If I'm wrong, I'll accept it, but I really doubt I am.

Maybe I shouldn't have said it was Plusle and Minum with so much certainty, but it definitely seems to be the most reasonable choice.

You also shouldn't jump to conclusions, though - I have that file sitting right in front of me.

 

[Red Arremer]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Pra_&_Mai

Guess I've got the facts wrong about the Random Button, but obviously we both were not in the right.