[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Pieman0920]

The Ice Climber's originality is a level above Mewtwo's. He couldn't possibly do what they do. Mewtwo did have a original feel, but it wasn't like the ICs double team style. Outside of that, I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[MasterWarlord]

I know Ice Climbers had a more original moveset, but Mewtwo was far more popular outside of Smash. Ice Climbers may as well not exist outside of Smash, as far as 99.9% of people are concerned they may as well have had their first role in Melee.

If the moveset isn't a cloned one, then the uniqueness of the moveset shouldn't matter. I suppose that means the Ice Climbers are the most deserving character in the game followed by Olimar and the traine due to having a unique moveset. </Sarcasm>

I don't care if Wario and Yoshi have their own icons, they're part of the Mario world. Yoshi doesn't deserve to be considered it's own series, and it was a most random choice by Sakurai to have it be so. Wario is understandable, he has his own real series, but he should still count as a Mario character. In the long run, nobody cares about how many characters bare the icon of the series, it's about how many characters are actually from said series. Pokemon is more popular, famous and well known then Zelda, and Zelda doesn't have a fifth character nearly as deserving as Mewtwo.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I think most characters are pretty unique

In the long run, nobody cares about how many characters bare the icon of the series, it's about how many characters are actually from said series.

That didn't really make much sense.

 

[MasterWarlord]

I guess I'll clarify, seeing as I somehow didn't manage to be clear enough.

What if Diddy Kong had his own icon from Diddy Kong Racing? Would you still consider him a Donkey Kong character? Would you still consider the Donkey Kong series as having two characters?

Of course you would.

That's what it's like with Yoshi and Wario. They aren't classified in world icons as being Mario characters, but anybody who's played the actual games would consider them as such.

 

[Pieman0920]

Yoshi is in his own series because he had a spin off sereis. First Yoshi's Island, then Yoshi's Story, and beyond. Diddy had one game, and thus not a series. Same goes for Peach.

And you are really over emphasizing Mewtwo's importance. Outside of the first game, he doesn't really have any role, and even that role is very minimal. =/

 

[flyinfilipino]

Yoshi is in his own series because he had a spin off sereis. First Yoshi's Island, then Yoshi's Story, and beyond. Diddy had one game, and thus not a series. Same goes for Peach.

And you are really over emphasizing Mewtwo's importance. Outside of the first game, he doesn't really have any role, and even that role is very minimal. =/

Agree with all of this. Also, what's the big deal about icons?

 

[MasterWarlord]

Still, he was at least as deserving if not more then the ice climbers for brawl. Both unique, non cloned movesets, and Mewtwo is more important and popular.

You still can't deny that Pokemon is the second most popular/important series, and Mario has six (If not seven from DK) characters if you ignore the icons. Just because a few games don't star the main character of the series doesn't mean it's a unique series all it's own. If you had more enemies only seen in the Yoshi series and had a final boss besides Bowser, it'd be more understandable, but as is, it's rather random. I suppose Peach is her own series from Super Princess Peach, and Diddy from Diddy Kong Racing and so on and so forth? I think not.

 

[flyinfilipino]

The Ice Climbers were supposed to represent the Retro Age, and that is all. Sakurai said something along the lines of needing representatives for the NES era. From there on out, it's all Smash popularity.

Icons don't necessarily represent series, i.e. R.O.B.

 

[MasterWarlord]

If they don't represnt series, then why do people claim Mario has only four characters? If people ignored the icons, Mario would have six characters, thus Pokemon having five (For Mewtwo) wouldn't be a problem.

Still, the point is Mewtwo deserved it over the Ice Climbers. Ice Climbers had smash popularity due to their unique moveset and their having been tourney viable for Melee, which is Sakurai's felt, not that of the actual characters.

 

[flyinfilipino]

If they don't represnt series, then why do people claim Mario has only four characters? If people ignored the icons, Mario would have six characters, thus Pokemon having five (For Mewtwo) wouldn't be a problem.

Still, the point is Mewtwo deserved it over the Ice Climbers. Ice Climbers had smash popularity due to their unique moveset and their having been tourney viable for Melee, which is Sakurai's felt, not that of the actual characters.

Most of Yoshi in Smash's moves and abilities come from his own spin-off series (Smash Wario's too, I suppose). But if you don't believe spin-off series count, then I can't convince you of why these characters have their own icons.

Why did the Ice Climbers necessarily have to take Mewtwo's 'place'?

 

[SkylerOcon]

Actually, Sakurai prefers the old games, so it only makes sense that the IC had a spot.

Also, Lucario was chosen over Mewtwo because newer gens needed a rep. I would've prefered somebody else, over Lucario.

You see, the IC were in high fan demand, Sakurai likes them, and it gave old-school gamers a reason to pick up Brawl. It's a win-win situation for everybody. I wanted Mewtwo back, but the inclusion of the IC and Lucario over Mewtwo was a logical one.

 

[MasterWarlord]

I'm not saying they directly took his place, but I'm saying Mewtwo was more deserving then them. A theory Chronobound came up with is that originally Roy and Mewtwo were planned as the last two characters instead of Sonic and Wolf, but was changed late in development. Jigglypuff was more likely to have taken Mewtwo's place then Lucario, because Jigglypuff was added decently late, as seen by her not being in SSE.

But who technically replaced Mewtwo in development doesn't matter. Mewtwo doesn't deserve it over Jiggs, as much as that frustrates me, but he indeed does over the ice climbers, falco, and toon link.

Toon Link and Falco are clones while Mewtwo's original, and you already know how I feel about the Ice Climbers.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I'm not saying they directly took his place, but I'm saying Mewtwo was more deserving then them. A theory Chronobound came up with is that originally Roy and Mewtwo were planned as the last two characters instead of Sonic and Wolf, but was changed late in development. Jigglypuff was more likely to have taken Mewtwo's place then Lucario, because Jigglypuff was added decently late, as seen by her not being in SSE.

But who technically replaced Mewtwo in development doesn't matter. Mewtwo doesn't deserve it over Jiggs, as much as that frustrates me, but he indeed does over the ice climbers, falco, and toon link.

Toon Link and Falco are clones while Mewtwo's original, and you already know how I feel about the Ice Climbers.

How does Mewtwo compare to every other character in the game? Might as well talk about them too. See, it just gets really complicated unless you look at the most obvious reason, as SkylerOcon observed earlier: Lucario was to represent the new generation of Pokemon. How important Lucario will be in the future doesn't matter; Sakurai said he always directs each Smash game as if it's the last.

 

[orochijes]

Are there any retro games that may have a character appear in smash as a wild card? Ice Climber and Kid Icarus are games people had pretty much forgotten about. Are there any more?

 

[flyinfilipino]

There are probably dozens of good characters that could be pulled out of obscurity from the NES days. I don't want to remember them though, I want to be surprised!

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Are there any retro games that may have a character appear in smash as a wild card? Ice Climber and Kid Icarus are games people had pretty much forgotten about. Are there any more?

Kid Icarus has been a cult around gamers up till Brawl's trailer. Now everyone knows about it. Just nobody's played it.

Ice Climber never got that luxury, but it's a fun arcade style game. Nothing epic like Kid Icarus.

 

[Roihu]

Chronobound's theory is nice, but it relies too much on the character chart. I'm sure that they decided not to include Mewtwo early on. IC were bound to be in the next installment because of they representing their own series (If Dr. Mario counts as his own series, which I doubt and it's Mario anyways, so I think it's still voidable). With a series like Pokemon that have almost 500 freaking Pokemon (Seriously, I think it's over 500 if you count all the form changes) there is a very high possibility to lose characters. Who knows? Lucario may not be in the next game if there is one.

 

[ness4life]

Are there any retro games that may have a character appear in smash as a wild card? Ice Climber and Kid Icarus are games people had pretty much forgotten about. Are there any more?

The way Nintendo is treating F-Zero, it is almost in the same boat!


We need a F-Zero Wii, stat!

 

[Roihu]

We need a F-Zero Wii, stat!

And it better be good, too!

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Chronobound's theory is nice, but it relies too much on the character chart. I'm sure that they decided not to include Mewtwo early on. IC were bound to be in the next installment because of they representing their own series (If Dr. Mario counts as his own series, which I doubt and it's Mario anyways, so I think it's still voidable). With a series like Pokemon that have almost 500 freaking Pokemon (Seriously, I think it's over 500 if you count all the form changes) there is a very high possibility to lose characters. Who knows? Lucario may not be in the next game if there is one.

All characters that would be in the game were decided on June 9, 2006, Sakurai said so himself. We don't know if this means all characters including if characters got unfortunately cut (Forbidden Seven, anyone?) or if that was the roster we have in the game (excluding Sonic. He was the only character to get in afterwards when Sakurai and Miyamato said they would except applications from third party companies for characters. That's why Megaman isn't in, Sega went out of their way to ask for Sonic, Capcom didn't for Megaman). I hope it's the first and characters were cut, it'd be a shame if Mewtwo wasn't even considered. What do you guys think?

@ F-Zero: You guys are lucky, people pay attention to your racing series. I mentioned this before and I'll mention it until my demands are met, Wave Race was just as good (imo better than F-Zero X and F-Zero GX), give it the same treatment Nintendo!

 

[MasterWarlord]

Retro characters don't advertise anything and have zero popularity, and are essentially lesser versions of "shock" characters without the intention of shocking you. I'm suprised Sakurai's gotten away with the massive retro section he's managed to form up, four characters, as much as Zelda/Pokemon. Nobody wanted a retro character before Melee, and nobody would want one in brawl if not for the Ice Climbers. Had the Ice Climbers not been tourney viable and had Mewtwo been tourney viable, he'd be in Brawl.

The same goes for Falco, his tier list position of #2 is why he's in brawl, if he swapped spots with Mewtwo on the tier list I can guarantee you we'd have Mewtwo in Brawl over Falco.

Speaking of hypothetical situations, if Mewtwo were in SSB64 instead of Jigglypuff and Mewtwo was tourney viable while Jiggs was rock bottom, we'd have Mewtwo instead of Jiggs in Brawl.

Really, the main reason we don't have Mewtwo in Brawl is cause he was bottom tier in Melee, and Sakurai is entirely to blame for that.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Retro characters don't advertise anything and have zero popularity, and are essentially lesser versions of "shock" characters without the intention of shocking you. I'm suprised Sakurai's gotten away with the massive retro section he's managed to form up, four characters, as much as Zelda/Pokemon. Nobody wanted a retro character before Melee, and nobody would want one in brawl if not for the Ice Climbers. Had the Ice Climbers not been tourney viable and had Mewtwo been tourney viable, he'd be in Brawl.

The same goes for Falco, his tier list position of #2 is why he's in brawl, if he swapped spots with Mewtwo on the tier list I can guarantee you we'd have Mewtwo in Brawl over Falco.

Speaking of hypothetical situations, if Mewtwo were in SSB64 instead of Jigglypuff and Mewtwo was tourney viable while Jiggs was rock bottom, we'd have Mewtwo instead of Jiggs in Brawl.

Really, the main reason we don't have Mewtwo in Brawl is cause he was bottom tier in Melee, and Sakurai is entirely to blame for that.

No. Now you're just talking nonsense, seriously.

 

[SkylerOcon]

F-Zero + Wave Race + Star Fox = Happy hardcore gamers.

 

[Chief Mendez]

No. Now you're just talking nonsense, seriously.

YA SRSLY.

Everybody loves retro characters. If you don't, you're a communist. END OF STORY, BABY

 

[orochijes]

YA SRSLY.

Everybody loves retro characters. If you don't, you're a communist. END OF STORY, BABY

This is the only proper response.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

F-Zero + Wave Race + Star Fox in Smash = Happy hardcore gamers.

Fixed. To my ultimate preference, anyway. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees :/

Does Sakurai really pay attention to the tier list and worships it as the Holy Grail of making a Super Smash Bros. game? If so, wtf went wrong with Brawl?

 

[kr3wman]

YA SRSLY.

Everybody loves retro characters. If you don't, you're a communist. END OF STORY, BABY

HUZZAH! That Lunch box guy was funny, getting his *** kicked by a robot boy.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Does Skaurai really pay attention to the tier list and worships it as the Holy Grail of making a Super Smash Bros. game? If so, wtf went wrong with Brawl?

He most certainly does not give two sh*ts about the "tier list": a totally unofficial list created by too-obsessive fans.

If you want proof, just read over those Iwata Asks interviews with him. It's pretty clear he really doesn't care what the..."hardcore" Smashers think.

Which, personally, I can get behind.

EDIT - flyinfilipino, you have to post one more time--FOR GREAT JUSTICE!

 

[Tedius Zanarukando]

If there are is a new FE lord, we'll just have 3 reps from FE. No biggie.

Not to mention Ike's contraversie to stay or not to stay's not like the Roy contraversie this time around.

I cannot accept that message. No, there should be 4 not 3 if there is going to be a new Fire Emblem Lord. I do not think there is going to be a new Fire Emblem Lord between Brawl and SSB4. We will just settle for Marth, Ike, and Lyn. The new Fire Emblem Lord will originate, not from the Wii or DS, but from the same platform as SSB4.

What about WiiConnect 24, so that Sora Ltd. could stay on board and continue to add on to the game? The new characters and stages would be added automatically, as the Wii 2 will come with the necessary equipment to support this feature.

 

[ChronoBound]

I cannot accept that message. No, there should be 4 not 3 if there is going to be a new Fire Emblem Lord. I do not think there is going to be a new Fire Emblem Lord between Brawl and SSB4. We will just settle for Marth, Ike, and Lyn. The new Fire Emblem Lord will originate, not from the Wii or DS, but from the same platform as SSB4.

What about WiiConnect 24, so that Sora Ltd. could stay on board and continue to add on to the game? The new characters and stages would be added automatically, as the Wii 2 will come with the necessary equipment to support this feature.

Lyn is the least important lord in terms of plot in the entire series.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Bah. I'm just surprised how few people attack the Ice Climbers and frustrated at Sakurai claiming the game is "perfect". No game is ever perfect, and Brawl is far from it, with too many flaws to count. Brawl is great, yes, but it had potetional to be so much more, mainly in online as well as the stage builder. 90% of the smash community would've preferred the development time for SSE went into more characters (Probably around 5, give or take) instead.

I find it hard to believe you truly can't understand what I'm talking about. I find it more likely you're just content with Brawl and are praising whatever's in it, and would've praised Mewtwo if he'd of made it in over any of the characters I stated.

In any case, I certainly don't see many other people here at the moment who are actually trying to give half decent reasoning for their characters of choice, I simply see "MASTER CHIEF LOL ROFL".

But in any case, you've made your opinions clear, and obviously nobody's opinions are going to change here. Next topic: What do you think of K. Rool?

 

[kr3wman]

Lyn is the least important lord in terms of plot in the entire series.

But she's a girl. +reps for that. And no, Marth doesn't count.

 

[Tedius Zanarukando]

Lyn is the least important lord in terms of plot in the entire series.

However, Lyn has a great Western fanbase and her appearance as an Assist Trophy can warrant appearing in SSB4 as a playable character. Plot importance does not always guarantee a spot as a playable character or Assist Trophy. Also, Lyn was the first to appear in a U.S. released Fire Emblem game.

 

[ChronoBound]

Bah. I'm just surprised how few people attack the Ice Climbers and frustrated at Sakurai claiming the game is "perfect". No game is ever perfect, and Brawl is far from it, with too many flaws to count. Brawl is great, yes, but it had potetional to be so much more, mainly in online as well as the stage builder. 90% of the smash community would've preferred the development time for SSE went into more characters (Probably around 5, give or take) instead.

I find it hard to believe you truly can't understand what I'm talking about. I find it more likely you're just content with Brawl and are praising whatever's in it, and would've praised Mewtwo if he'd of made it in over any of the characters I stated.

In any case, I certainly don't see many other people here at the moment who are actually trying to give half decent reasoning for their characters of choice, I simply see "MASTER CHIEF LOL ROFL".

But in any case, you've made your opinions clear, and obviously nobody's opinions are going to change here. Next topic: What do you think of K. Rool?

I concur with what you are saying.

As for K. Rool, I would facepalm if he was not playable in Smash Bros. 4. The only villain more recognizable and popular than him that is not in Smash Bros. is Ridley. Also, K. Rool's moveset practically writes itself.

 

[SkylerOcon]

But she's a girl. +reps for that. And no, Marth doesn't count.

Oh, and Wolf is a furry. +reps for that.

The 'ZOMG A GURL!11' argument is stupid. Characters either deserve it, or they don't.

 

[Delta_BP26]

I would love to see Mewtwo in, buffed all the way to at least mid tier. Ice Climbers... I don't like them. They were from an abysmal NES game, and I was one of the anti-IC's before Brawl's release back on the GameFAQs Brawl boards.

Forget about all that though, bring in the Bowser Jr./Shadow Mario, Dark Samus, Ridley and Ray 01!

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

He most certainly does not give two sh*ts about the "tier list": a totally unofficial list created by too-obsessive fans.

Bold face on the not; tier list in quotation marks; profanity; mean to competitive scene? No offense, did I pop a nerve or something?

I was talking about the claims that Mewtwo was cut due to being on the bottom of the tier list. In Brawl, Sakurai tried to balance everyone (even he must have noticed Sheik and Marth), why would he cut the idea of the "worst" character if he tired to destroy the idea of the "best" character, and made a lot of Melee's "best" worse and "worst" better?

 

[ChronoBound]

But she's a girl. +reps for that. And no, Marth doesn't count.

However, Lyn has a great Western fanbase and her appearance as an Assist Trophy can warrant appearing in SSB4 as a playable character. Plot importance does not always guarantee a spot as a playable character or Assist Trophy.

No, having female anatomy does not make you a worthy addition. As for great Western popularity, among actual people who played FE7, Hector and Eliwood are more popular. Most of the people who jumped on the Lyn bandwagon were simply hoping for another character to upskirt.

 

[MasterWarlord]

(Edit: ) Curse my horribly slow computer, it barely loads this forum. Sorry for double post...

 

[ChronoBound]

Bold face on the not; tier list in quotation marks; profanity; mean to competitive scene? No offense, did I pop a nerve or something?

I was talking about the claims that Mewtwo was cut due to being on the bottom of the tier list. In Brawl, Sakurai tried to balance everyone (even he must have noticed Sheik and Marth), why would he cut the idea of the "worst" character if he tired to destroy the idea of the "best" character, and made a lot of Melee's "best" worse and "worst" better?

Personally, I don't think Sakurai was even trying to balance, and was simply making characters different for the sake of being different. For example, Marth and Falco are still high on the tier list (with Marth being in the top 5). Meanwhile, balanced characters such as Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Samus, Jigglypuff, Mario, Link (who was low tier), Yoshi (again low) get nerfed to bottom or low (only Mario is low out of the ones I listed and maybe Link).