[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[flyinfilipino]

Who says that there would be a new game for series once they are introduced in Smash? We don't have any new Ice Climber games or even another Game & Watch gallery, and even with all the superfluous accessories Nintendo is making today to sell with the Wii, I don;t see R.O.B. coming back. I hope to god that Kid Icarus game doesn't get made . What exactly warrants "Balance," while I'm here?

Sephiroth was voiced by Lance Bass, former *NSYNC member for his first English voiceover. If that isn't badass, I don't know what is.

What I meant was that I'm against just adding these less-than-iconic/less than popular characters for the sake of representing a few more smaller franchises and/or just to give more 'reps' to already existing franchises because they don't have as many as others, and then calling it Smash 4.

I think Brawl pretty much covered nearly all of Nintendo's biggest stars, past and present, and that the series can expand its limits from there. (3rd parties ftw) That is the direction that the series is heading in, it seems.

Lance Bass? Sephiroth? Uhhh....

 

[MarthFanatique]

I'm not really denying that. I'm pretty sure Jigglypuff was popular in Japan before her anime debut though, from what I've heard.

EDIT: After all, it is a cute little thing, and Japanese folks love that :D

Exactly. I think we all can agree that the original 12 will never be taken out of smash. EVEN Jiggles. In Japan she is the second (behind Pika) most popular Pokémon. Meowth is third I believe...But, why have the original twelve received big nerfs? Mario, Yoshi, Captain Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff, and Link have been overall given nerfs. Pika, Kirby, and Ness have overall been nerfed (though Pika and Kirby came back strong in Brawl; Ness's awesomeness appears to be replaced by Lucas). I'm not sure about Luigi. Fox is the only character who really stayed really good (besides Pika and maybe Kirby) in terms of tiers. Why does Sakurai punish the original twelve, especially Falcon (I don't play him at all, but others' complaints make it sound pretty bad )?

 

[flyinfilipino]

Exactly. I think we all can agree that the original 12 will never be taken out of smash. EVEN Jiggles. In Japan she is the second (behind Pika) most popular Pokémon. Meowth is third I believe...But, why have the original twelve received big nerfs? Mario, Yoshi, Captain Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff, and Link have been overall given nerfs. Pika, Kirby, and Ness have overall been nerfed (though Pika and Kirby came back strong in Brawl; Ness's awesomeness appears to be replaced by Lucas). I'm not sure about Luigi. Fox is the only character who really stayed really good (besides Pika and maybe Kirby) in terms of tiers. Why does Sakurai punish the original twelve, especially Falcon (I don't play him at all, but others' complaints make it sound pretty bad )?

No clue about the nerfing. Perhaps to make the newcomers stand out more? Pikachu rox though!

My argument is that Jigglypuff already had great popularity as a "cute mascot" before her anime appearance. While I haven't been able to locate any solid evidence, she was featured on a Pokemon-themed Japanese jet plane during the same year as her Japanese anime debut (I'm not sure about before or after though).

 

[hippochinfat!!]

It was obviously after. No Pokemon stood out before the anime.

The anime is what made certain Pokemon

 

[Pumako]

Smash 4 should have tons and tons of more memory and a more complicated 3-d adventure mode with better graphic cutscenes...just throuwing sum ideas out there

 

[teen-robot]

Smash 4 should have tons and tons of more memory and a more complicated 3-d adventure mode with better graphic cutscenes...just throuwing sum ideas out there

i found the graphics in brawl fantastic:\ so how ''better''?

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

My argument is that Jigglypuff already had great popularity as a "cute mascot" before her anime appearance. While I haven't been able to locate any solid evidence, she was featured on a Pokemon-themed Japanese jet plane during the same year as her Japanese anime debut (I'm not sure about before or after though).

Story is that after Pikachu was put into Smash 64 they decided on a second Poke rep with the next popular choices in Japan which were taken by polls with Pikachu at one. Jiggs, Meowth, Mewtwo, and Poliwhirl placed after him. If you look at merchandise and other adaptations of Pokemon at the time, those four were everywhere. It was just a matter of who they chose, and Japan DOES like cute things, probably justifying Pikachu's and Jigglypuff's popularity over the far cooler Mewtwo and Poliwhirl. Of course, everyone except Pikachu's and Meowth's popularity has dwindled over the years and are arguably kept alive due to the anime nowadays, but with the roles they were given at the start of the show as main Pokemon, they'd be staying around no matter what.

I don't want to see Jiggs leave anytime soon. Or anyone, for that matter, but I think Jiggs has a good chance of staying, even being unlockable again.

Smash 4 should have tons and tons of more memory and a more complicated 3-d adventure mode with better graphic cutscenes...just throuwing sum ideas out there

The cutscenes were the best part of SSE. More thought should go into story mode than "run A to B, watch cutscene C, meet character D, run E to F, section over."

 

[Pumako]

Shadow Mario

A: Punch 3%
Ax2: Punch then Kick 7%
Ax3: Punch Punch Jab 12%

Up A: Upper Cut 4%
Left A: Slides to the left 4%
Right A: Slides to the right 4%
Down A: Stomps 3%

B: Paint Splat/ Hurls a paint ball in any direction...(can be charged)
Left B: Brush Swipe/ Swipes the paintbrush to the left, and leaves a puddle of paint on the floor.
Right B: Brush Swipe/ Swipes paintbrush to the right, and leaves a puddle of paint on the floor.
Down B: Puddle Slam/ Jumps High in the air and rushes back down.

B: 15%
Left B: 9%
Right B: 9%
Down B: 37%

Final Smash: Paint Flood/ Floods the entire stage with a wall of paint. Dmg Ratio; Depends

Suicide Smash: Portal/ Who ever gets in the way of Shadow Mario in this attack will get sucked into a giant painted "M" Dmg Ratio; Instant Kill

Speed: 8
Attack Pwr: 5
Defense: 3
Jump: 9

Up Taunt: Points and Laughs.
Left Taunt: Sticks tounge out.
Right Taunt: Shakes jumps up and down.
Down taunt: Sits down and yawns.

Costumes:
1/Red and Black apperence.
2/Green and Purple apperence.
3/Shiny Gold apperance.
4/Dull Gray apperance.
5/Weird Turqoise apperance.
6/Mario with Red Eyes and black overall's.

 

[Twilght Link]

Story is that after Pikachu was put into Smash 64 they decided on a second Poke rep with the next popular choices in Japan. Jiggs, Meowth, Mewtwo, and Poliwhirl. If you look at merchandise and other adaptations of Pokemon at the time, those four were everywhere. It was just a matter of who they chose, and Japan DOES like cute things, arguably justifying Pikachu's and Jigglypuff's popularity over the far cooler Mewtwo and Poliwhirl. Of course, everyone except Pikachu's and Meowth's popularity has dwindled over the years and are arguably kept alive due to the anime nowadays, but with the roles they were given at the start of the show as main Pokemon, they'd be staying around no matter what.

I don't want to see Jiggs leave anytime soon. Or anyone, for that matter, but I think Jiggs has a good chance of staying, even being unlockable again.



The cutscenes were the best part of SSE. More thought should go into story mode than "run A to B, watch cutscene C, meet character D, run E to F, section over."

I loved SSE as a way to see all the Nintendo characters together but i think more thought should've gone into it. Oh if only i could see the reaction on Link and Tlink if they met.....lulz.

Maybe some dialogue and an actual ending would help, along with a more understandable plot and maybe the idea of the smash characters fighting in the stadium as kirby and mario were at the beginning.

 

[Pumako]

i found the graphics in brawl fantastic:\ so how ''better''?

better like almost life like but skill on the edge of that "video game" look

 

[Pieman0920]

I don't think movesets are supposed to go here...

In any case, I also don't think you can really give dialogue to SSE, since half the characters simply don't or cant talk. It would be awkward if say...Ike was trying to figure out what Link is doing, if Ike can talk, and Link can't.

 

[orochijes]

I think the storyline was just fine. I was more happy with melee's adventure mode to be honest.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

^ no he didn't.

smash 4 needs a more complex story line. otherwise i don't see much else to add.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

I loved SSE as a way to see all the Nintendo characters together but i think more thought should've gone into it. Oh if only i could see the reaction on Link and Tlink if they met.....lulz.

That was the appeal, but they didn't work on delivering it too well. We could also see Nintendo lands, like Melee's Adventure mode combined with a story like SSE and kept fresh enough to make us want to play.

Maybe some dialogue and an actual ending would help, along with a more understandable plot and maybe the idea of the smash characters fighting in the stadium as kirby and mario were at the beginning.

I was expecting Solid Snake to use the codec or at least say something during a cutscene. Dialogue isn't really something Nintendo heroes are known for. Mario characters, including the Bros. can talk, but what about Link or Ness, and other Silent Heroes? A bigger plot is a must, and no anticlimatic, BS, "I played through all of that for THIS!?" ending like we got in Brawl.

 

[Smasherk808]

Pumako just TRIPLE posted!
And I think the storyline was just fine. I was more happy with melee's adventure mode to be honest.

Same avatar... different person

 

[Chief Mendez]

Lance Bass? Sephiroth? Uhhh....

Lance was the VA for Sephy in the first Kingdom Hearts game. NOW YOU KNOW

Super Smash Bros. has run its course of being a Nintendo All-Stars game, and has now become a Nintendo and relative companies All-Stars game, where characters before thought to have no choice whatsoever of inclusion now have a chance to face off against the Nintendo characters that we love (and hate). Smash Bros. needs to branch off further into the second/third party world, bringing in characters relative to Nintendo's systems to further upheave their popularity, and hence, garner new fans and more money. It'd benefit Nintendo and its guest companies greatly, and would benefit the fans by opening up Smash Bros. to the video game world, expanding the audience, and making a kickass game.

Jeez, this is the cool stuff I miss while I'm away. Shame on me...

Anyway, I'm also in support of this idea. I went over this at least 100 pages ago, but they could even go one step further and trim some of the fat from Brawl's roster, to make room for the necessary Nintendo newcomers, and more 3rd party entrants.

I firmly disagree. There are still a handful of characters from series already represented in Smash Bros. that deserve to make it (Ridley, K. Rool, Black Shadow, Mewtwo, Roy, Bowser Jr.).

There are also quite a few series that deserve a playable character such as Famicom Wars, Paper Mario, Custom Robo, The Legend of Stafy, Punch-Out, and Golden Sun.

Bowser Jr. and Roy are not at all necessary. They don't represent their franchises, or at least, Smash already has enough, better, representation of said franchise that they're not necessary. (I agree with Ridley, 'Shadow, Mewtwo, and K. Rool though)

Paper Mario isn't a big staple of Nintendo's lineup, so he'd really just be fanservice to the hardcore fans. Punch-Out may have had four games, but only two of them are at all iconic or fondly-remembered (or remembered at all, really). If Little Mac were in, it'd be as a Retro rep, and frankly I think there are better options.

Stafy is basically Kirby sans Copy. Really, that's how it is. The games aren't terribly original or monstrously enjoyable, and they certainly shouldn't be considered as iconic. As an AT, he's awesome. But unless Ninty starts localizing the games, anything more would be ignorance on their part.

---

Also, putting in super-iconic gaming legends as opposed to third or fourth-string characters from their own obscure games will make Nintendo approximately INFINITY +1 more monies.

So that probably settles that.

I think these Phoenix Wright images are getting out of hand.

Damon Gant is not amused by your insolence. The Ace Attorney images shall continue, indefinitely. So it has been written, so it shall be done.​

You obviously have not been to a Japanese Smash forum.

Whoa there man! Try not to let your incredible geekiness show so much

Spoiler

it makes the rest of us look bad

2ch

Okay, I have to take issue with this. Using 2channel as a reference for things is the same as me saying "hey, Mudkip's really popular on 4chan, so he should be in the game".

The site has nothing to do with Smash Bros. at all, barring a few threads in the game section.

Anyway, I think from now on, we should all stay far away from any Japanese source that can't readily be understood by an English speaker. It's...kind of unfair.

 

[smashbot226]

Same avatar... different person

PIME TARADOX.


I liked Melee's Adventure better. But who cares?

They're both COMPLETELY scripted anyway.

I hope they allow you to create a custom character which you can assign moves to them, like this:

Mario's Neutral A.

Marth's Ftilt.

Luigi's Utilt.

MGNW's Bair.

And so forth. Of course, moves will have ratings; the higher the rating, the better it'll be, but the more ratings it costs. And of course, you'll have to UNLOCK the moves through gameplay.

 

[Chief Mendez]

I hope they allow you to create a custom character which you can assign moves to them, like this:

Mario's Neutral A.

Marth's Ftilt.

Luigi's Utilt.

MGNW's Bair.

And so forth. Of course, moves will have ratings; the higher the rating, the better it'll be, but the more ratings it costs. And of course, you'll have to UNLOCK the moves through gameplay.

Not only would that be nearly impossible to balance properly, it also creates a situation where a character has fewer moves than they should.

Like, if I put only the highest-rating moves on my Smashes, Tilts, and Aerials, I'd have no more points to spend on Specials.

This isn't Custom Robo, this is Smash Bros.

 

[Pieman0920]

I wouldn't call Paper Mario just fanservice to hardcore fans. Each of his games has sold over a million copies, with each game selling more than the last. He's really popular, y'see. =/

 

[smashbot226]

Not only would that be nearly impossible to balance properly, it also creates a situation where a character has fewer moves than they should.

Like, if I put only the highest-rating moves on my Smashes, Tilts, and Aerials, I'd have no more points to spend on Specials.

This isn't Custom Robo, this is Smash Bros.

MANAGEMENT, B*TCHES.

They just won't have that move.

And they'll start out with a basic moveset, of course, that costs no rating.

They'll just SUCK.

And as you develop, you'll gain MORE tech points, up to 300. The highest rating a move would have is 10, and only THE best will get maximum.

I think that'll work, eh? Like Emerl in Sonic BAttle?

 

[Darkwashu]

Smash 4 should have tons and tons of more memory and a more complicated 3-d adventure mode with better graphic cutscenes...just throuwing sum ideas out there

If the game goes 3-d,Game and Watch will cease to exist.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

In any case, I also don't think you can really give dialogue to SSE, since half the characters simply don't or cant talk. It would be awkward if say...Ike was trying to figure out what Link is doing, if Ike can talk, and Link can't.

Thinking about it, although there are never voice overs or anything, people who speak to Link and such seem to understand what's going on. Dialogue isn't too out there, just weird for Smash Bros.

Characters in Smash Bros that have a confirmed history of talking:

Mario (voice over sometimes, commercials/advertisements and events have had Mario talk)
Luigi (voice over sometimes, script)
Peach (voice over sometimes, script)
Ike (voice over)
Marth (script, Voice over in Smash)
Roy (script, Voice ovcer in Smash)
Fox (voice over)
Falco (voice over)
Wolf (voice over)
Pokemon Trainer (the Trainer you play never talks in game, but PT does in Smash)
Pit (one line of script "I'm done for!" when he dies, voice over in Smash)
Meta Knight (didn't in game, anime, voice over Smash)
Zamus/Samus (Zamus talks in Brawl with voice over while Samus's thoughts and log are heard throughout series)
Lucario (doesn't in game, anime, voice over in Brawl)
Mewtwo (doesn't in game, voice over in Japanese language option for Melee, does in anime)
Captain Falcon (voice over, although his F-Zero GX english voice sucks, does in anime)
King Dedede (doesn't in game, does in anime)
Sonic (voice over from Sonic Adventure games, anime)
Solid Snake (voice over from Metal Gear Solid games)

Characters that could have speaking roles due to game:

Zelda (no voice over in game, talks with script)
Ganondorf (no voice over in game, talks with script)
Dr. Mario (considering Mario, he could)
Sheik (no voice over in game, talks with script)
Olimar (no voice over in game, talks with script)
Bowser (roars and growls for sound effects, talks with script)
Yoshi (god knows how they get those sound effects, sometimes talks with script)
Wario (no voice over in game, does say one liners and following Mario and Luigi it is possible he could get dialogue)
Donkey Kong (monkey sound effects, talks with script)
Diddy Kong (monkey sound effects, talks with script)
Lucas (no voice over, few lines of dialogue in Mother 3 in prologue chapter. Never speaks when you control him, however.)


Characters that have no speaking roles:

Link
Ness
Ice Climbers
Toon Link
Young Link
Jigglypuff
Pikachu
Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard
Mr. Game & Watch
Pichu
R.O.B.

Even though the odds are against dialogue ever becoming big in Adventure Mode, I'm surprised by how much actually spoke when you think about it.

If the game goes 3-d,Game and Watch will cease to exist.

That's what they said when Mr. Game & Watch wasn't confirmed months after the release of SSE on the Dojo :/

 

[Chief Mendez]

I wouldn't call Paper Mario just fanservice to hardcore fans. Each of his games has sold over a million copies, with each game selling more than the last. He's really popular, y'see. =/

And yet, it's just a Mario game. The only difference is that those games play differently than regular Mario games.

But if the only things a spin-off series needs to warrant a rep is different gameplay and high sales, then we sure as h*ll had better see some Mario Sports characters. Not to mention Mario Party. And Mario Kart.

I think that'll work, eh? Like Emerl in Sonic BAttle?

Besides the fact that you mentioned Sonic Battle, that does sound better.

...Though I still don't think it'd be worth the time and effort. The only sort of "custom character" I support is Mii, which would have a set moveset, no matter which Mii you were using. The only difference would be size, color, and face.

Depending on the size, you'd either have a really fast, light Mii, or a slow, heavy Mii. Same moveset; different physics.

 

[gantrain05]

i wanna see the double dragons in smash 4, that would be totally rad to the max yo.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Even though the odds are against dialogue ever becoming big in Adventure Mode, I'm surprised by how much actually spoke when you think about it.

Quite the comprehensive list you've got there. Guten work.

Though you did make a few slight hiccups:

1. All the Fire Emblem characters talk via text in their games.

2. Pit says "I'm done for!" whenever he dies in Kid Icarus. It might not seem like much, but he really has nobody to talk to, so I think it counts.

3. Meta-Knight talks in the anime.

that would be totally rad to the max yo.

Oh God. This makes me want Johnny Turbo or MC Hamster in the game.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

1. All the Fire Emblem characters talk via text in their games.

Never played Marth's so I just wanted to be safe. Figured Roy would, but just to be safe, again.

2. Pit says "I'm done for!" whenever he dies in Kid Icarus. It might not seem like much, but he really has nobody to talk to, so I think it counts.

I forgot about that. Probably due to my lack of deaths playing after I got good. Does Pit ever say that when he gets K.O.'d in Brawl? I heard it happens once in a great while.

3. Meta-Knight talks in the anime.

I already had him down, but it doesn't hurt.

 

[Chief Mendez]

I forgot about that. Probably due to my lack of deaths playing after I got good. Does Pit ever say that when he gets K.O.'d in Brawl? I heard it happens once in a great while.

Yeah, he does. I very rarely hear it in an actual match, but repeatedly SD'ing to make him do it is a great way to spend time in the WiFi Waiting Room.

 

[Twilght Link]

Dk talked in his show (yes he had a 3d show in a galaxy long long ago, when Beast Wars still inhabited this dimension).

 

[DekuBoy]

Never Mention That Program. Or I Will Find You

 

[orochijes]

I remeber that old Donkey Kong show...oh childhood.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Dk talked in his show (yes he had a 3d show in a galaxy long long ago, when Beast Wars still inhabited this dimension).

?O_O?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTGMS3jDxV0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajnZ47wdZVY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B4d9gyVAos&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntiJNPcLMOE&feature=related
Oh my god.

I didn't count the American Legend of Zelda or Mario shows or the cd-i for obvious reasons, so I won't count DK's show.

 

[tirkaro]

Mewtwo (doesn't in game or in Smash, does in anime)

Mewtwo talked in his victory animation in melee, but only in the japanese version. (or if you switch the language to japanese)

Lucas

Lucas does talk. (but not very often, only in the beginning, where you don't play as him.)

Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong

Both of them talk (in text) in DK 64.

Yay for nitpicky corrections!

 

[Darkwashu]

Oh God,that DK show is hilarious.
DK sounds like some teenage girl.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Mewtwo talked in his victory animation in melee, but only in the japanese version. (or if you switch the language to japanese)

Cool. I gotta see that.

Lucas does talk. (but not very often, only in the beginning, where you don't play as him.)

I was playing a Japanese ROM with a translation guide telling me where to go and what to do, I had no idea who was saying what unless the guide mentioned it as major.

Both of them talk (in text) in DK 64.

Yay for nitpicky corrections!

Oops. General forgetfulness.

I hope that's the last of my mistakes and last need to edit.

Oh God,that DK show is hilarious.

If I had a petition to Nintendo for the next Super Smash Bros. to change DK's Final Smash from the drums to "BANANA SLAMMA!" and his victory theme to the "Hoo-Ha's!" from the TV show, would anybody sign?

It's better than Pokemon, The Super Mario Show, The Legend of Zelda show and the F-Zero anime put together.

 

[MasterWarlord]

There has not been a single game where there was text dialouge where Diddy hasn't talked, and Donkey Kong talked before rare left the series. All games where rare left should be ignored, anyway, as they're giant piles of rubbish.

The Donkey Kong show is vastly superior to the Zelda CDI and Mario shows, putting it down on those levels is a massive insult to quality programming. Granted, the singing is terrible and makes horribly embarassed to watch the show, but when that's not happening it's decent and actually produces a few laughs. My bias for the show probably has to do with my K. Rool fandom, but I'm rather appalled at how horribly stupid he is in the show to be honest, compared to, say, Donkey Kong 64, where he has a "I'm sorrounded by idiots" thing going.

The only true locks for SSB4 are the following:
1: K. Rool
2: Black Shadow
3: 5th Gen Pokemon
4: New FE Lord

While Ridley and Mewtwo are most deserving of entering into SSB4, we're dealing with Sakurai here, who was dumb enough to not include them in Brawl in the first place. One who dumped Mewtwo in the first place isn't as likely to bring him back, though it's still likely due to demand, while Sakurai simply refuses to make a moveset for Ridley. At least if Sakurai decides that Mewtwo has enough fans it will be easy for him to implement him. I'd say both of these characters were locks if we had someone with competence at the helm of smash, but Sakurai is not that man. How else could we have Falco, Toon Link, and the Ice Climbers over Mewtwo? Falco and Toon Link are clones (Mewtwo being unique, only sharing neutral b and fsmash with Lucario), and the ice climbers are far less popular and deserving. Not that those characters shouldn't be in, but not before Mewtwo.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Why does everybody always pick on Ice Climbers when it comes to Mewtwo getting kicked out? "lol dont deserve it" is crap, they both did, and both were going to be in. We don't even know why Mewtwo was scratched at the end, I doubt sakurai just went "Y'know, I like Ice Climbers more" and ditched Mewtwo.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Why does everybody always pick on Ice Climbers when it comes to Mewtwo getting kicked out? "lol dont deserve it" is crap, they both did, and both were going to be in. We don't even know why Mewtwo was scratched at the end, I doubt sakurai just went "Y'know, I like Ice Climbers more" and ditched Mewtwo.

Because Sakurai did put the Ice Climbers at higher priority for whatever reason, probably due to too many Pokemon reps and the tier placing of the two characters in Melee.

Why do I think Mewtwo is superior to the Ice Climbers? Quite simple. They're not a shock character like Game & Watch/ROB, and came from an unknown unpopular game. Pit had fan demand and made sense as a retro character, the Ice Climbers were completely random, having no fans and not being a shock character. I honestly see them as less deserving then even Snake as far as having gotten into Melee, as that spot would've been much better used on Diddy, Wario or Dedede.

The Ice Climbers are in Brawl SOLELY based on their inclusion in Melee, which is understandable. Now that they're here, they should stay, seeing as they now have some fans due to having been in Melee and have a very unique moveset. However; Mewtwo actually deserved his spot in Melee, at least FAR FAR more then the Ice Climbers, and thus should return before the Ice Climbers (Not that they shouldn't of returned as well).

 

[Pieman0920]

If Mewtwo had been in, then the Pokemon series would be imbalnced and had 5 slots. (it already has 6 movesets) If Mewtwo replaced Lucario, then all of Pokemon would have been first gen. If he replaced PT, then a original character would have been sacrificed for a unpopular one. Jiggs and Pika were from the first game, so they mattered more. That's why Mewtwo was cut.

And you do know that the ICs got in because not just because they were retro, but rather because they were original, right?

 

[flyinfilipino]

The Ice Climbers are in Brawl SOLELY based on their inclusion in Melee, which is understandable. Now that they're here, they should stay, seeing as they now have some fans due to having been in Melee and have a very unique moveset. However; Mewtwo actually deserved his spot in Melee, at least FAR FAR more then the Ice Climbers, and thus should return before the Ice Climbers (Not that they shouldn't of returned as well).

That elusive "popularity in Smash" factor rears its head again.

And bashing Sakurai because one or two characters didn't get in is kinda silly.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Why does everybody always pick on Ice Climbers when it comes to Mewtwo getting kicked out? "lol dont deserve it" is crap, they both did, and both were going to be in. We don't even know why Mewtwo was scratched at the end, I doubt sakurai just went "Y'know, I like Ice Climbers more" and ditched Mewtwo.

GOD! this is one of the main reason why I kinda dislike Brawl, it should have been the other way around, the Ice Climbers should have gotten scrapped, because IMO they suck, as for Mewtwo he was very unique and actually my favorite pokemon of all time,

And you do know that the ICs got in because not just because they were retro, but rather because they were original, right?

so what!! Mewtwo was original wasn't he? last time I checked was. Originality has nothing to do with Mewtwo receiving the boot, it's simple and solely because the IC's are retro.