Forward SMASH? I doubt that, it's not very fast. Nair I'd expect might work against it, or maybe fair.
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Official Q&A Thread
- Thread starter DZLE
- Start date
- Status
DZLE
Smash Master
Yeah just add me on your list and PM me sometime you see me online, or pm me a date/time you wanna get on. I can play MK (just like anyone with have a brain), so it would be good training for you. dont be surprised if you beat me over and over, though.
Just let me know.
I never mess up the Luigi chaingrab anymore. Not ever. Once you do it enough, you will never miss it. Being frame perfect with your main is something your should strive for.
Also, funny thing to do with luigi is if he is at like 0 and charges at you and you grab him (on FD or smashville etc) just do the SCG to near the edge, by that time he is high enough for the infinite, then you go for the kill. It is pretty lol.
But yes, a good luigi will not get grabbed so easy.
Yeah not Forward smash, we would shield it much too fast.
I have tested it and if your fast enough with luigi, if they mess up the SCG you can SHNair, and it boots DDD in the face.
hdrevolution123
Smash Ace
What about now? I'll add u when u add me, thx
Taiki
Smash Apprentice
Random Question: Anyone know what frame jet hammer comes out on AFTER you can start walking around with it?
hdrevolution123
Smash Ace
is it not in frame data. The answer to that question plus many many things related to it are situated there
Taiki
Smash Apprentice
If your refering to the frame data in the metagame discussion thread it only has the frame for when the hitbox of mecha hammer first comes out if you simply press down-b. I was refering to how long it would take for the hitbox to come out from the point where you could begin walking around with it.
I'm sure swinging the mecha-hammer is far faster then starting up the machinery getting the rockets going and holding it in place, AND THEN swinging. I'm just looking for the specific number.
I'm sure swinging the mecha-hammer is far faster then starting up the machinery getting the rockets going and holding it in place, AND THEN swinging. I'm just looking for the specific number.
DZLE
Smash Master
to my knowledge we dont have this knowledge. Be the first to contribute it to the frame data :D
hdrevolution123
Smash Ace
Indeed, the question you asked here can be quite useful. Well through experience, do you think the walking hammer comes out faster? I think it does from what I've seen in matches. Of course we must prove this from a theoretical view now. Don't forget to post your contribution in the frame data :-)
Commander_Beef
Smash Champion
Yes that's correct, once again Gates. My point being is that he has "something" to counter the attempted grab with.
DZLE
Smash Master
walking hammer comes out faster than just hitting b, of course.
pretty much a SH aerial of any kind.
Taiki
Smash Apprentice
Love to find out and contribute that frame data, if i had any clue how to go about confirming what happens on what frame. Any ideas on how to get frame data for a move with transcended (does not clash with anything) priority
Taiki
Smash Apprentice
Sorry for the double post, but it's been a while and i wanted to call attention to the fact I actually got the information.
So because K Prime is a Fantastic person he agreed to find out the frame data on Mecha Hammer for me
Just hitting down b
hitbox: 29-30
IASA: 77
release b while charging
hitbox: 12-13
IASA: 60
release b while full charge:
hitbox: 9-11 (you have to stand really really close to get hit on the 9th frame.)
IASA: 70
So Mecha Hammer has a lag chunk of ending lag (everyone knew this) but is best used while it is still charging. Looks like charing Mecha Hammer has the same speed as your average smash attack so it can't be too useful but decent for mindgames.
remember for extra OOMPH in your attacks yell:
"I'MA CHARGIN MAH HAMMERZ"
In your opponent's ear for the shock value and then as they recoil in a wtf type motion hit them with mecha hammer.
So because K Prime is a Fantastic person he agreed to find out the frame data on Mecha Hammer for me
Just hitting down b
hitbox: 29-30
IASA: 77
release b while charging
hitbox: 12-13
IASA: 60
release b while full charge:
hitbox: 9-11 (you have to stand really really close to get hit on the 9th frame.)
IASA: 70
So Mecha Hammer has a lag chunk of ending lag (everyone knew this) but is best used while it is still charging. Looks like charing Mecha Hammer has the same speed as your average smash attack so it can't be too useful but decent for mindgames.
remember for extra OOMPH in your attacks yell:
"I'MA CHARGIN MAH HAMMERZ"
In your opponent's ear for the shock value and then as they recoil in a wtf type motion hit them with mecha hammer.
DZLE
Smash Master
Great find, keep it coming.
Hylian is my hero
Smash Rookie
VS Wario
I'm having a lot of trouble against my friends Wario, so I have decided to pick up DDD! I don't have much experience with DDD, but I know the basics. What do I need to do to auto win this match up?
1. Does the Upsmash work every time after a chain grab? Can't they Dodge? Should I ever use uptilt after the Chain throw?
2. How do I land grabs against Wario? Is shield grabbing the best idea?
3. Should I throw lots of waddle Ds?
4. When should I bair spam? Should I use Ftilt very often? How do I spam bair (like should I touch the ground after every bair, or stay in the air bairing as long as possible?
5. Are there any other tricks you can think of? Or anything I need to watch out for?
Thanks a lot!
I'm having a lot of trouble against my friends Wario, so I have decided to pick up DDD! I don't have much experience with DDD, but I know the basics. What do I need to do to auto win this match up?
1. Does the Upsmash work every time after a chain grab? Can't they Dodge? Should I ever use uptilt after the Chain throw?
2. How do I land grabs against Wario? Is shield grabbing the best idea?
3. Should I throw lots of waddle Ds?
4. When should I bair spam? Should I use Ftilt very often? How do I spam bair (like should I touch the ground after every bair, or stay in the air bairing as long as possible?
5. Are there any other tricks you can think of? Or anything I need to watch out for?
Thanks a lot!
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
1. Hell no oO
2. Wario is so hard to grab if he knows what he's doing, if not "run and shieldgrab".
3. ...
I'm too lazy to write more.
Wario is definitly no auto-win, more the contrary ...
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192600
Afro (the best Wario in the world) loses to every DDD he plays. The wario boards have this match up at 85:15! I think their ratio is much more accurate than the DDD boards.
DDD's back air stuffs all his areals. His tilts stuffs his ground game. And if DDD gets a grab, he can chain throw him across the screen and finish with Usmash for low percent kills.
My problem is I don't know any grab mind games with DDD, or how to spam bair effectively
...or how to recover lol
DZLE
Smash Master
There you go.
T3h Albino
Smash Master
theres so many things wrong with what you just saidAfro (the best Wario in the world) loses to every DDD he plays. The wario boards have this match up at 85:15! I think their ratio is much more accurate than the DDD boards.
DDD's back air stuffs all his areals. His tilts stuffs his ground game. And if DDD gets a grab, he can chain throw him across the screen and finish with Usmash for low percent kills.
My problem is I don't know any grab mind games with DDD, or how to spam bair effectively
=[
Fiction is the best tournament wario after stepping up and taking futiles place when he quit. Afro does not lose to every d3 he plays im sure he can take a few games off seibriks d3 when they play. The matchup is not 85:15 and never was. At the worst it use to be 70:30, but the wario's have recently figured out "air camping" which is a great method to not get grabbed. A good wario does not get grabbed =/. Yeah bair owns wario but im sure the wario boards know this and have found some way around the penguins aerials. The matchup is now 55:45 D3 we recently rediscussed.
Maybe DDD boards need to discuss the match up again. A good D3 will shut Wario down so hard.
Wario boards: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142975
"Updates:
Link changed from 60-40 to 70-30
Toon changed from 50-50 to 60-40
Marth changed from 40-60 to 30-70
DDD changed from 30-70 to LOL
G&W changed from 30-70 to 40-60
ALL MATCHUPS:
Blue + Advantage
Green = Even
Red - Disadvantage
Purple means your fighting a DDD
DDD- LOL
Not only is it a hard matchup already because of high priority backairs and chaingrabs. But now because DDD could end all his chaingrabs in uptilts or upsmashes, its just become alot worst. If a DDD knows perfectly how to abuse Warios it isn't hard at all for them to win. Lol fits this matchup well. Nearing 25-75 if you want to get technical."
Wario boards: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142975
"Updates:
Link changed from 60-40 to 70-30
Toon changed from 50-50 to 60-40
Marth changed from 40-60 to 30-70
DDD changed from 30-70 to LOL
G&W changed from 30-70 to 40-60
ALL MATCHUPS:
Blue + Advantage
Green = Even
Red - Disadvantage
Purple means your fighting a DDD
DDD- LOL
Not only is it a hard matchup already because of high priority backairs and chaingrabs. But now because DDD could end all his chaingrabs in uptilts or upsmashes, its just become alot worst. If a DDD knows perfectly how to abuse Warios it isn't hard at all for them to win. Lol fits this matchup well. Nearing 25-75 if you want to get technical."
sMexy-Blu
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2008
- Messages
- 1,441
Um... that isnt Wario matchup's thread, that guide hant been updated in like forever so Phantom X closed it.... look at the date.. Wario's have it as 55-45 DeDeDe.
You should check the date when that was updated... IT WAS LAST UPDATED ON 08-17-2008 at 04:06 PM.
This is Wario's matchup thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196010
(which now is DMG's guide but he still has the matchup numbers)
Wario goes even with DeDeDe as long he doesn't get grabbed.
A smart Wario will give DeDeDe quite some trouble.
Afro is NOT the best Wario and he doesn't get ***** by DeDeDe's,
Btw you can't end a grab release into Utilt, Wario gets control back before he gets hit by the Utilt so only Usmash.
Ignorance is bliss son.... -_-
DonkeyKongUh
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2008
- Messages
- 63
I need SERIOUS olimar help
Like I got completely ***** by dabuz and weruop pretty recently. I wanna see a giant wall of text of how the hell to fight olimar well!
Diddy too he pisses me off as well. ADHD -.-
Like I got completely ***** by dabuz and weruop pretty recently. I wanna see a giant wall of text of how the hell to fight olimar well!
Diddy too he pisses me off as well. ADHD -.-
hdrevolution123
Smash Ace
ADHD is da SKILLZ. I can't help you there. Learn from experience by playing him more.
With Olimar you already know that his grab game is RIDICULOUS. It outranges on the ground except for your ftilt. Use that a lot. It's no kill move so making it stale wouldn't matter. Try poking him with ftilt to get him off the stage and gimp him. If he's in the air then your bair outranges or outprioritizes his small pikmin fair and bair.Sometimes you could try SH dair to rack up some damage but that's risky cos then he can grab you due to the end lag of it. Throw Waddles Doos and Dees whenever possible. When you're far away from him just Waddle Dee toss and it will rack up some free damage if not shielded or expected. In fact try ftilt poking him first then when he hasn't been expecting waddle dees, throw some at him and he might not shield them. Gimping him is easy, use bairs, use fairs, hell use inhale and shoot him further away or just grab the ledge and edgehog until his crap recovery gets the better of him. Good Oli players would try to use purple pikmin to get you off the ledge but this can only occur once with good timing at the edge so either way he's screwed.
Just be cautious for Oli's grabs, Pikmin throwing spam and jab! Oli's grab has tremendous range (certainly his pivot grab for mention) and he can throw Pikmin to rack up a lot of damage. If you start shielding it then he can grab u can combo you. In fact your best option is to also throw waddle dees and if a pikmin gets you then use jab to get them off. Do not let Oli catch you off guard. Olimar's jab give a fricking 15%! That's how broken he is! Short little man giving 15% in a single jab combo! For spacing (when you're at his face) he would normally use a pikmin smash attack- which is really fast- jab (giving 15%) or dtilt (which comes out on frame 6. Either way Oli has some good spacing options. WHen he's at your face the best option is perhaps to jab or dtilt or shield grab but I can only tell u throw experience that him being in your face is not the situation you wanna be in cos he outprioritizes u there. Keep spacing my friend. FTILT is your friend. Waddle Dees are your friend. If he doesn't grab you then INhale is also your friend. GIMPING is your philosophy in this matchup. Be conscientious what what that guy will do but always be concentrating on stage control and getting him off the stage first. D3's wall of pain is beautiful, utilize that and know it WILL get a whole stock off an Oli user.
Also as you may know Oli can combo very easily and effectively after various throws. From dthrow he'd definitely want to fair you or grab you again (if at a low percentage). Try fooling him so you don't fall into his combo. Try DIing away from Oli or behind him after the dthrow. Mix it up. NEVER spotdodge immediately cos then he'll know exactly when to attack you. If you do DI behind him after dthrow then you can easily bair him (a safe move to use in the air). Watch out for his hyphen smash- it's very fast and very powerful for KOing. After various throws Oli is able to hyphen smash a fast fall instead or getting you in the air. It's danagerous and since you'll then he above him, he can either up-B you (which has a lot of range) or rack damage with the uair. My tips therefore is to always be as unpredictable as Oli is after throwing. He is most likely to use dthrow and uthrow at low percents. You now know that. Therefore DI behind him and bair to ftilt on ground. If you do happen to get above him in the air then don't panic to much. Just try to keep away from him. I hate juggling but opponents will do it. Fall away from him where you can perhaps knock in a bair where you think you can't be shield grabbed. Try a Waddle toss instead cos it has more reach and can save you from an Oli grab.
Just to add at the last moment, Olimar has a whistle which gives him super armor frames. If you are trying to gimp him with fair he can easily whistle and get no knockback. If he's consistent then he can also whistle to survive a bair. Try to fool your opponent while gimping him than going for a full on Wall of Pain. Perhaps wait a bit and then attack or even just edgehog. Remember he has a powerful short range air game so your attempts to gimp him when he is ABOVE the stage can result in being punished. Below the stage he is quite vulnerable for he NEEDS to grab the ledge in order to survive there.
Don't fall for his grabs, stay out of range and ftilt or spotdodge and punish.
Hope I helped!
HD
EDIT: I'm now a Smash Apprentice, yay!
Jupz
Smash Master
When is a good time for his dtilt??
hdrevolution123
Smash Ace
A good time is perhaps after you've cancelled your jab so your dtilt can trip them. Otherwise it's quite a laggy and risky move. Well it you not going to use sidesmash you can predict your opponent from the ledge and use it. It can KO more easily than with ftilt or any other strong attack or special. So in summary, after a jab cancel or when predicting your opponent at the ledge. This is almost like Mario's dtilt (quite useless or crap in comparison to other attacks) but D3's has more power so could be like a faster alternative to sidesmash (which is too risky to use)
Jupz
Smash Master
ok thanks :D I also use it against the characters that can be Dthrow-dtilted.
hdrevolution123
Smash Ace
Indeed you can.
TheGungnir
Smash Cadet
The Dtilt is also really good for predicting sidesteps, because of the lingering hitbox that it has. It stays out for quite sometime, almost like a sex kick (think samus Nair) The Dtilt has good knockback and is one of Dedede's most reliable grounded horizontal kill moves, it comes out fast.
The hitbox is fairly large so characters who have short jumps can also be kicked out of their jump. My favorite way to use the Dtilt though, is to kick ledge camping Metaknight's :D seeing as i don't want to be caught over the edge with one of those >_>;;
The hitbox is fairly large so characters who have short jumps can also be kicked out of their jump. My favorite way to use the Dtilt though, is to kick ledge camping Metaknight's :D seeing as i don't want to be caught over the edge with one of those >_>;;
TheGungnir
Smash Cadet
Does anyone have any demonstrational videos of the SC chaingrab? I've heard it was faster, but i'm having a hard time pulling it off without a visual aid :[ I can do the normal running chaingrab fine, just the SCG is killing my advancement on the chaingrab aspect of D3 D: thanks guys.
hdrevolution123
Smash Ace
that's why dtilt is a reliable kill move and alternative to side smash or mecha hammer
hdrevolution123
Smash Ace
lol QQ, what's a 'SC chaingrab'? You've made it an acronym so i might recognise the named type
Yeah, the grab comes out faster in the SCG, but it's a harder to do, especially if you're using the running grab right now. But if you can, definately use it.
Here's an old video of me playing, and I pull off a pretty decent SCG from 0:20-0:24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPr3lVnfnmU&feature=channel
There's probably more somewhere in the video, but I haven't watched the whole thing in a while.
If you need detailed instructions on button input/timing or anything, just ask me.
sMexy-Blu
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2008
- Messages
- 1,441
Go read Buuman's CG formulas thread, there he proves that SCG is faster than just running and grabbing.
TheGungnir
Smash Cadet
Thanks Qwertyman, I think i was shielding too late :[ lol. It's quicker than i thought lol, i'll have to practice the timing, and only some characters can be SC grabbed, and some can only be regular chaingrabbed right?
That's incorrect as far as I know. I haven't done extensive research, but because the SCG comes out faster, it should be better for chaingrabbing everybody, especially Luigi, Pit, Marth, and the like.
sMexy-Blu
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2008
- Messages
- 1,441
SC = Shield Cancel.
SCG = Shield Cancel grab
Run SHIELD + A then Dthrow -> repeat
Everyone can be regular chaingrabbed and SCG. I use SCG to chaingrab MidWeights and regular chaingrab for heavies.
Exept Luigi he can only be SCG'd with perfect frame timing.
IMO DeDeDe's CG is Weight based shown in this list:
As you saw the CG is pretty much weight based, DeDeDe can't CG low weights but he can CG EVERYONE who is Heavier than Marth.
You should attempt to always SCG your opponent, it comes out faster than just grabbing and its a great habit for a DeDeDe player.
TheGungnir
Smash Cadet
ok cool, thanks for the help guys, and the list sMexy-Blu :]
DZLE
Smash Master
Hey, yeah just want to back up and clarify whats being said.
SCG does indeed come out faster.
There is no such character that can be CG'd but not SCG'd.
There is characters that can only be SCG'd, the most common being LUIGI.
Luigi needs frame perfect timing on the SCG, but i never miss it anymore.
You will get there ^^
Nice list smexy
supercam84
Smash Rookie
i never really use my sheild i dont know why i just dont usually think about it but i still win against 3 level 9s it just cause d d d has great ability to launch other players
DZLE
Smash Master
way to boost that post count with pointless speech...
3 level 9's doesnt matter.
Beat me, I equal 400000 level 9's.
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