Official Metaknight Discussion

[Kith]

lolwut. TLC for the win.
scrub is
1) a new player that's trash
2) a player who plays a game within rules that limit his full potential.

a rule that limits MK could be compared to the scrub rule of no throwing, because, you know, you're supposed to be perfectly safe and take no damage when you block. only now, you're actually trying to enforce it.

That's like, the worst simile ever lol

 

[MarKO X]

i'm a mk main because mk is the best character and because i dont know how to control space with Sonic.

you say its the worst simile ever, but that's essentially what's going on here. the scrub says, "wow, you shouldn't abuse the ledge like that, that's cheap." how is that any different from the scrub saying, "wow, you shouldn't abuse throwing like that, that's cheap."?

the game knows no rules of honor guys.

 

[rvkevin]

the scrub says, "wow, you shouldn't abuse the ledge like that, that's cheap." how is that any different from the scrub saying, "wow, you shouldn't abuse throwing like that, that's cheap."?

You're totally right, planking is totally legit...what were we thinking with LGLs...

 

[Jem.]

Or how about, we don't ban MK because he has been struggling to win Nationals dating back to Genesis.

 

[MarKO X]

You're totally right, planking is totally legit...what were we thinking with LGLs...

your guess is as good as mine.
but yet, the suggestion to ban hard counterpicks was brought up, and that was cool?

ROFL

Or how about, we don't ban MK because he has been struggling to win Nationals dating back to Genesis.

hmmmmm...

 

[salaboB]

i'm a mk main because mk is the best character and because i dont know how to control space with Sonic.

you say its the worst simile ever, but that's essentially what's going on here. the scrub says, "wow, you shouldn't abuse the ledge like that, that's cheap." how is that any different from the scrub saying, "wow, you shouldn't abuse throwing like that, that's cheap."?

the game knows no rules of honor guys.

He's not trying to put in a rule of honor, he's trying to change the tournament rules (Before the tournament occurs, not during it).

That's why he's not a scrub for suggesting it.

Note: I do not feel it is a good suggestion.

 

[MarKO X]

ok, so suggesting that we should make throws illegal isn't scrub-like.

gotcha.

I suggest we implement this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262438

 

[Masmasher@]

see yall know where this "limiting scrub" talk is gonna lead you guys to right?

 

[Tien2500]

i'm a mk main because mk is the best character and because i dont know how to control space with Sonic.

you say its the worst simile ever, but that's essentially what's going on here. the scrub says, "wow, you shouldn't abuse the ledge like that, that's cheap." how is that any different from the scrub saying, "wow, you shouldn't abuse throwing like that, that's cheap."?

the game knows no rules of honor guys.

Its totally different because throws are a universal tactic and in virtually every fighting game there are completely legit strategies to avoid losing to grabs. If there was a game where throwing repeatedly was the dominant strategy at high level play one of three things could happen.

A) People like the throwing metagame and have a ball repeatedly throwing each other.

B) Throwing is banned. (which is admittedly pretty unlikely to happen to a core game mechanic)

C) People say, wow this game sucks. Lets play something else.

 

[MarKO X]

planking is not universal? there's no way around planking?
hard counters are not universal? there's no way around hard counters?

 

[Tien2500]

planking is not universal? there's no way around planking?

I didn't say anything about planking at all.

hard counters are not universal? there's no way around hard counters?

No hard counters are not universal. There is one way around hard counters. Pick MK.

 

[MarKO X]

I didn't say anything about planking at all.

ok, fine.

No hard counters are not universal. There is one way around hard counters. Pick MK.

Fox is hard countered by Pikachu. He can't pick Falco?

no, even better than that: what exactly is wrong with picking mk for a hard counter?

 

[Tien2500]

Fox is hard countered by Pikachu. He can't pick Falco?

no, even better than that: what exactly is wrong with picking mk for a hard counter?

I'm sorry but I don't get what you're saying here or how it relates to what I said. It might just be cause its very late here and I'm tired but if you want me to respond to this you'll have to rephrase it.

 

[MarKO X]

ok, you said that hard counters are not universal. i thought about it, and I agree with that.
you said that there is one way around hard counters, to pick MK. At first, I said, "if Fox is hard countered by Pikachu, why can't the Fox pick Falco? That will get around that hard counter, right?"

but then I thought about it, and I was like, "wait, what's wrong with picking MK?"

it is late. i'm bored as hell. i hate when plans fall thru. >=(

 

[ShadowLink84]

*slaps you both with fish and calls it a night*

 

[ADHD]

I believe now that metaknigt should only be banned in 2v2 play.

There is a clear gap in player skill compared to the character when using metaknight in doubles. Has there ever been a major tournament where the top placing team has NOT relied on metaknight? Of course, there is mostly mew2king.. But in very, very few cases have been where a team in the top 3 had never bothered to touch the character at least once.

Why?

Because, the only character that can stop metaknight in doubles is another metaknight. No other character can defend itself from tornado (which is much harder to punish in doubles due to partner coverage and previous shield usage drains it to a pulp) or the inner radius surrounding metaknight with that idiotic sword. His gimping ability is marvelous, and it can only improve when there are two characters instead of one on the screen. NOT TO MENTION STAGE COUNTERPICKS. It's utter bull**** that a team HAS to win game 1 because the set is basically over against for example, a double metaknight team if victory for the non-metaknight team doesn't happen right at first. Let's see, there's: Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Delfino, and in the stagelist can be far nastier in some mw areas. There is only one stage ban, and that leaves at least 3 other stage options in which the succession rate of winning for a double metaknight team is quite ridiculous assuming all players are on a somewhat equal skill level.

Now think about it, if we eliminate metaknight from just doubles play, things would be far harder for the metaknights that "dominate" singles play. Most of the metaknights that are active in singles at major tournaments peak at their play in doubles. They would now have to be motivated to learn other characters, and because of this we may see a sudden decline in metaknight usage in singles. The majority of individuals won't have enough time to main separate characters and still do just as well.

Overswarm, bring out a ****ing graph of metaknights dominating doubles please, shoo shoo with this singles business it's kind of weak compared to how much he is used in 2v2.

 

[Tien2500]

ok, you said that hard counters are not universal. i thought about it, and I agree with that.
you said that there is one way around hard counters, to pick MK. At first, I said, "if Fox is hard countered by Pikachu, why can't the Fox pick Falco? That will get around that hard counter, right?"

but then I thought about it, and I was like, "wait, what's wrong with picking MK?"

it is late. i'm bored as hell. i hate when plans fall thru. >=(

Well there is nothing wrong with picking MK if the rules allow it. The question is whether or not the rules should allow if. The question is whether or not the rules should allow this.

MK does not have any hard counters or soft counters and according to the data that Crow! gave us picking MK over the next best character (Snake) doubles your chances of winning. Some feel that this creates an unhealthy metagame which is unenjoyable and this will lead people to leave brawl.

 

[MarKO X]

Well there is nothing wrong with picking MK if the rules allow it. The question is whether or not the rules should allow if. The question is whether or not the rules should allow this.

MK does not have any hard counters or soft counters and according to the data that Crow! gave us picking MK over the next best character (Snake) doubles your chances of winning. Some feel that this creates an unhealthy metagame which is unenjoyable and this will lead people to leave brawl.

If the rules say that you cannot use MK to bypass hard counters, then maybe he should be banned, especially when that will just influence people to pick MK outright.

lol. u r tired, clearly this thread is trolling your life. go to sleep man.

ADHD, that's an interesting point about MK overcentralizing the doubles game, but if you ban MK, will that whole G&W+ZSS team reign supreme once again?

 

[Tien2500]

We're definitely not on the same wavelength right now. Lol. I think I will go to sleep. Night.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I believe now that metaknigt should only be banned in 2v2 play.

There is a clear gap in player skill compared to the character when using metaknight in doubles. Has there ever been a major tournament where the top placing team has NOT relied on metaknight? Of course, there is mostly mew2king.. But in very, very few cases have been where a team in the top 3 had never bothered to touch the character at least once.

Why?

Because, the only character that can stop metaknight in doubles is another metaknight. No other character can defend itself from tornado (which is much harder to punish in doubles due to partner coverage and previous shield usage drains it to a pulp) or the inner radius surrounding metaknight with that idiotic sword. His gimping ability is marvelous, and it can only improve when there are two characters instead of one on the screen. NOT TO MENTION STAGE COUNTERPICKS. It's utter bull**** that a team HAS to win game 1 because the set is basically over against for example, a double metaknight team if victory for the non-metaknight team doesn't happen right at first. Let's see, there's: Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Delfino, and in the stagelist can be far nastier in some mw areas. There is only one stage ban, and that leaves at least 3 other stage options in which the succession rate of winning for a double metaknight team is quite ridiculous assuming all players are on a somewhat equal skill level.

Now think about it, if we eliminate metaknight from just doubles play, things would be far harder for the metaknights that "dominate" singles play. Most of the metaknights that are active in singles at major tournaments peak at their play in doubles. They would now have to be motivated to learn other characters, and because of this we may see a sudden decline in metaknight usage in singles. The majority of individuals won't have enough time to main separate characters and still do just as well.

Overswarm, bring out a ****ing graph of metaknights dominating doubles please, shoo shoo with this singles business it's kind of weak compared to how much he is used in 2v2.

Let me spin this around on ya since you did it in the other topic.
Get better.
If you believe that your success is enough to keep MK from being banned in singles.
it is enough to say that because there are teams in the top 3 that dont use MK, it is reasonable enough to say he cant be banned in doubles either, since other characters have a chance as well. =D

I am Anti-ban btw.

 

[Allied]

metaknight is kinda good

 

[rvkevin]

your guess is as good as mine.
but yet, the suggestion to ban hard counterpicks was brought up, and that was cool?

ROFL

If this is what you are referencing, "Second would be to limit who MK can play. If the matchup is too difficult, then ban MK from playing that character. So that would be anyone worse than say 60/40." I hope you're aware that some people are already proposing to do that...I think they're called the proponents of the banishment of MK.

ADHD, that's an interesting point about MK overcentralizing the doubles game, but if you ban MK, will that whole G&W+ZSS team reign supreme once again?

Most likely not, Diddy's bananas are really effective at not allowing them to fill the bucket.

 

[Turbo Ether]

ADHD does have a point about MK in doubles. However, I think the doubles metagame is vastly underdeveloped compared to singles. Most teams don't remain static, so they don't practice and come up with new strats.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Or how about, we don't ban MK because he has been struggling to win Nationals dating back to Genesis.

This argument again? MK isn't winning because we have 2 ridiculously good mains. One mains a character that doesn't do too bad against MK and has a TON of matchup experience, enough to easily tip the scales. Additionally, he's also a good distance better than virtually everyone else. The other mains a character nobody knows how to fight, and who doesn't do to bad against MK. He also has tons of MK matchup experience, whereas the top MK has no clue what to do in that matchup. Try again later.

ok, so suggesting that we should make throws illegal isn't scrub-like.

gotcha.

I suggest we implement this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262438

ZOMFG that is incredible.

 

[etecoon]

The other mains a character nobody knows how to fight

this excuse is getting really old and stupid. "diddy is just culture shock" was a 2008 statement, stop it.

that being said MK does solidly beat both snake and diddy, especially snake.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I dunno. When I hear it from Dekar within this month... Well, okay. At least the top MK has no clue how to fight him.

 

[iRJi]

ADHD does have a point about MK in doubles. However, I think the doubles metagame is vastly underdeveloped compared to singles. Most teams don't remain static, so they don't practice and come up with new strats.

This^^^^. It' is under developed.

Let me spin this around on ya since you did it in the other topic.
Get better.
If you believe that your success is enough to keep MK from being banned in singles.
it is enough to say that because there are teams in the top 3 that dont use MK, it is reasonable enough to say he cant be banned in doubles either, since other characters have a chance as well. =D

I am Anti-ban btw.

Did I read this right? Did this just say ADHD needs to get better? I don't believe me. I think my eyes are lying to me. This is the reason and proof that the words "get better" should never be used in this thread. How do you tell the 1 of the most dominating players as of right now to "get better"Just stop.

He does make a point, but I'm more worried about him in just singles lol.

 

[Kewkky]

Did I read this right? Did this just say ADHD needs to get better? I don't believe me. I think my eyes are lying to me. This is the reason and proof that the words "get better" should never be used in this thread. How do you tell the 1 of the most dominating players as of right now to "get better"Just stop.

He does make a point, but I'm more worried about him in just singles lol.

The point was to use his very flawed argument back at him. If he can tell people who have a problem with MK staying for singles "get better", why can't anyone tell him "get better", since he has a problem with MK staying for doubles? And it sounds definitely better when an anti-ban says it. *thumbs up ShadowLink*


Teams isn't THAT underdeveloped. We've been doing teams since when Brawl came out, the top placers are static and barely ever change teams (player-player relationships are different than player-character relationships... So many things can affect it, right Inui+Atomsk?). So far, all we see during doubles gameplay are players splitting up and then ganging up on an opponent for an easy kill, but it's all we see because it's the most effective approach. Why stay split up and risk two 1v1 battles on the field and possibly lose? Why stay together and risk the opponents to hit you both with the same attack, giving your team more %? And teams-only ATs? They're waaay too hard to pull off, since both players have to be positioned well and have great timing to pull them off (any opponents nearby? It's tough finding spare time away from the fight to set-up stuff, and much worse to set up ATs that only work when in a fight.

Teams doesn't seem THAT underdeveloped to me. Just cause it's not as flashy as singles doesn't mean we haven't done much with teams for 2 years.

 

[OverLade]

Or how about, we don't ban M2K because he has been struggling to beat Ally (and ADHD but only more recently) dating back to Genesis.

Fixed for accuracy.

 

[Luigi player]

this excuse is getting really old and stupid. "diddy is just culture shock" was a 2008 statement, stop it.

that being said MK does solidly beat both snake and diddy, especially snake.

lol, sure that's why the only MK who beats Ally is M2K... and the only MK that beats ADHD is... nobody.

 

[etecoon]

lol, sure that's why the only MK who beats Ally is M2K... and the only MK that beats ADHD is... nobody.

because having an advantageous matchup means that you always win regardless of how skilled your opponent is

 

[OverLade]

lol, sure that's why the only MK who beats Ally is M2K... and the only MK that beats ADHD is... MUTHAFUKIN NAIRO.

Fixed for accuracy.

 

[SnackAttack]

lol, sure that's why the only MK who beats Ally is M2K... and the only MK that beats ADHD is... nobody.

You know, ADHD is good; but he doesn't beat M2K all the time.

Aren't they about even in sets?

 

[Crow!]

ADHD has not done anything especially impressive in any large tourney (150+), there have been 9 so far) other than Pound4, where he won. Otherwise, he has 2 top 8 finishes.

So, who beats ADHD? Plenty of people, evidently. They just didn't happen to do it in the most recent tourney.

While we're on the subject...

Over the 9 150+ player tourneys, Diddy has 6 placements, total. All but one of them are lower than 4th place.

Among all tournaments in the past 13 months, ADHD has significantly less than half M2K's points (using Ankoku's scoring method). After ADHD, Diddy Kong players each have about a THIRD of the points of comparable MKs.


Link:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9585089&postcount=5511

 

[SnackAttack]

God! Crow too good!

 

[Chuee]

So, who beats ADHD? Plenty of people, evidently. They just didn't happen to do it in the most recent tourney

No, recently ADHD loses to almost no one. He lost to people in the past, but he's improved a lot and now he doesn't lose.

 

[TeeVee]

I believe now that metaknigt should only be banned in 2v2 play.

There is a clear gap in player skill compared to the character when using metaknight in doubles. Has there ever been a major tournament where the top placing team has NOT relied on metaknight? Of course, there is mostly mew2king.. But in very, very few cases have been where a team in the top 3 had never bothered to touch the character at least once.

Why?

Because, the only character that can stop metaknight in doubles is another metaknight. No other character can defend itself from tornado (which is much harder to punish in doubles due to partner coverage and previous shield usage drains it to a pulp) or the inner radius surrounding metaknight with that idiotic sword. His gimping ability is marvelous, and it can only improve when there are two characters instead of one on the screen. NOT TO MENTION STAGE COUNTERPICKS. It's utter bull**** that a team HAS to win game 1 because the set is basically over against for example, a double metaknight team if victory for the non-metaknight team doesn't happen right at first. Let's see, there's: Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Delfino, and in the stagelist can be far nastier in some mw areas. There is only one stage ban, and that leaves at least 3 other stage options in which the succession rate of winning for a double metaknight team is quite ridiculous assuming all players are on a somewhat equal skill level.

Now think about it, if we eliminate metaknight from just doubles play, things would be far harder for the metaknights that "dominate" singles play. Most of the metaknights that are active in singles at major tournaments peak at their play in doubles. They would now have to be motivated to learn other characters, and because of this we may see a sudden decline in metaknight usage in singles. The majority of individuals won't have enough time to main separate characters and still do just as well.

Overswarm, bring out a ****ing graph of metaknights dominating doubles please, shoo shoo with this singles business it's kind of weak compared to how much he is used in 2v2.

even though it would hurt me considering i use mk in doubles, i've been saying this exact thing for a longgggggggggg time.

 

[OverLade]

Also you guys forget ADHD hasn't played Tyrant and Dojo since Genesis...

 

[ADHD]

Also you guys forget ADHD hasn't played Tyrant and Dojo since Genesis...

The hell does that mean? I've never even played dojo except for one mm at apex.

Get better? THERE IS ACTUALLY SOLID PROOF of metaknight being overcentralized in doubles, not singles. Look at any national that has happened in the past, and scroll down to the 2v2 results.

Okay, you can use my arguement at me that I used for singles, but you guys are weak and there are actually noticable almost unbeatable characteristics he has in doubles. EVEN jason admitted metaknight was broken in 2v2 play. This is the guy screaming and pleading to not ban his character!

If you want clear evidence of metaknight being "overused" then all of you need to turn your heads at the other event always played in brawl tournaments. I don't even see your excuses for banning him in singles.

Hey, guess what? You don't need metaknight to win singles, but it's quite the opposite where I'm getting at. I will spam this sentence back at you.

No, recently ADHD loses to almost no one. He lost to people in the past, but he's improved a lot and now he doesn't lose.

Thanks, occasionally I can slip up to something like vs randall's ice climbers, but I patch it back up the next time we play.

 

[Jack Kieser]

lol hypocrisy.

inb4 ADHD attempts to make a Crow!-like statistics post