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Official MBR Tier List

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Laijin

Laijin

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BunBun said:
A ) I don't think you can mash to get out of rest...

B ) How fast does the gamecube recognize inputs?
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Yes you can.
All computer devices including consoles will read input every single frame. However, all input in smash is buffered so it detects if the key is pressed rather if the key is down. If it did'nt do that and you pressed the A button, it'll read the A button being pressed every frame instead of once when you pressed it.
So in other words, as long as you can press the buttons as fast as you can, it'll read each and every button press.
 
BunBun

BunBun

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50 Terranite? Really?
Laijin said:
Yes you can.
All computer devices including consoles will read input every single frame. However, all input in smash is buffered so it detects if the key is pressed rather if the key is down. If it did'nt do that and you pressed the A button, it'll read the A button being pressed every frame instead of once when you pressed it.
So in other words, as long as you can press the buttons as fast as you can, it'll read each and every button press.
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Right, but even if you COULD mash out of rest (you can't. Seriously, you can't.) it would take more than 5 presses, and if it only registers 1 press per frame, there's no way you'd be able to mash out before the fox jumps out of his shine.

Mogwai said:
You can't, lol, everything else is irrelevant.

Laijin's stuff is all whack, lol
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Yeah, figured. I don't know where he gets that idea...
 
KevinM

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Umbreon said:
Shouldn't it be Jigglypuff cause she can double rest, using the first one to nullify a shine and the 2nd one to hit fox before he can jump out?

Just saying.
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You're making me break my own rules here :(.

But no Magus said something along the lines that Fox's shine beats out everything and in a perfect world he can do damage to all of the characters with proper shine game and nullify the rest with shines then go and camp the ledge with a perfect ledge game.

Bowser can tie him because of the invincibility frames 4 of which on his up B but Fox can clank all those so they tie.

And Falco gets beat but then can do the same to the rest of the cast except for those other two thanks to that last frame of lag on his jump. (5 instead of 4)

I think that was how it went, I could find it but I know that it was basically Fox=Bowser>Falco>Everyone else
 
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I would imagine that a perfect falco could use properly spaced tilts such that fox could never get inside his hitbox, wheres fox can't do the same back because his lesser range means that he has to actually defend from them.

also fox's ledge stall is not perfect because he generates no hitbox to prevent you from grabbing the edge unless he does a shine before the up B, which leaves him venerable because the edge stall takes the same amount of invincibility that the edge gives with no frames for error.

edit: falco has 5, mewtwo has 6, bowser has 8 iirc.
 
DrewB008

DrewB008

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he can infract you 5 times and youll still be ok. plus i mean the post you made was even less useful than one explaining it wouldve been haha

i mean that, the way i imagine it, if marth spaces a fair and it hits fox at the same frame fox does a shine, fox will get hit

the only other possibility i can imagine is that it will clank sort of, but the only other situation in which ive seen aerials clank are vs falcos forward b, which i dont understand so maybe somebody can explain that too. its not even really a question of perfect play, because i shine other people out of aerials all the time if they dont have disjointed hitboxes, but marth does so i dont think it will work on him.
 
choknater

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Yeah. People are saying that the shine wins in almost, if not all scenarios which is not true because it gets outprioritized by longer range moves. It's not like Fox can weave in and out of the fray so quickly that he can always nail shines >_<
 
Binx

Binx

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Fox's shine cannot clank with an aerial, but if Marth jumps then Fox can move and grab him after his attack misses, or jump and shoot him while he is in the air and camp with a percent lead, so Fox wins either way, perfect play or not.

Edit - Chok but if its frame by frame play, if a character does an aerial then Fox can powershield instead of shine and grab them. If they try to grab, then Fox can spot dodge since it takes what, 4 frames to put up a shield and frame perfect sidestep? thats 3 less than the grab, Fox recovers on 21 I think, so Marth would be in lag on frame 30 that leaves Fox 3 frames to counter grab. If Fox walks close by though and multishines the only thing any character can do is powershield them over and over or get wrecked.

Anyways thats the last I'm gonna say on this topic, it isn't even entertaining lol.
 
KevinM

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Ok here let me post this and then lets stop talking about it, I found the exact post where he explains it.

Magus said:
Perfect play to win frame by frame play is really little beyond how flexible your infinite ledgestall is and whether you have a 1 frame invincibility move. It'd be Fox/Bowser in God tier, Falco in Top, and everyone else in Can't-Beat-Any-Of-The-Above tier. For those I believe it'd theoretically be like this:

Fox > Falco - Fox can beat Falco's ledge camping by stealing it and then getting free damage after he's left open doing his up-b. Falco can also beat Fox's ledge camping. Fox's up-b doesn't hit until the 20th so he has time to slip in and grab it in time. Fox has control of wherever Falco goes with his shine range and walking speed advantage. Fox can force Falco into a run to stay in range with his shine as his walk is slightly faster than Falco's, and then Falco would require a frame of crouching to be able to shine while Fox can still shine immediately at any time.

Bowser = Falco - Bowser can beat Falco's ledge camping. Falco can't beat Bowser's ledge camping, since if he tries to steal the edge Bowser is using his double jump to stall and isn't committed to anything like Fox/Falco's stalls, and can simply land on the stage rather than fastfall to regrab and continue the stall. Plus by grabbing the edge, Falco will either be giving the ledge right back to him or getting hit if he tries to stall. On the stage Falco should have control of Bowser's movement, but it doesn't matter because he has no way of getting/keeping him there. Bowser is impossible to hit, and it's impossible to interrupt his stall without Falco himself taking damage and then losing.

Bowser = Fox - Same deal as Falco/Bowser.
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Cactuar said:
Please explain how you think Bowser would reach the ledge through laser spam without taking damage, as I am actually curious how that would be achieved beyond what I have already said.
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magus said:
Lasers have hitlag and shield knockback. You can lightshield them and multiple SDI towards the edge to reach it rather quickly and then fastfall.

If there's a rule that explicitly states that you need to have more damage on your opponent before you are allowed to reposition yourself to the edge then yeah he's trash, but since there isn't one that I'm aware of he can turn any unwinnable matchup like Fox and Falco into at least a draw if the Fox/Falco simply does nothing and also avoids him, or possibly a win if they try to approach him at the ledge much like they would win if he were to try to approach them on the stage.

In this way, no character can actually beat him including Fox/Falco. Falco on the other hand does get beaten by a Fox.
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Scar said:
Magus, if no character can beat Bowser b/c he can ledgestall everyone, EVERY character's optimal strat would theoretically be to sit and watch him ledgestall. True, Bowser cannot be beaten, but that does not at all make him God tier.

If the true optimal strat for Bowser is to never approach, then he will always get a draw in every match while other characters would actually be fighting and either winning or losing. Unless that's Bowser's ultimate fate his strat is going to have to change.

Theoretically any character who can get a first hit on him would do so and then run away and maybe they can and maybe they can't, but until Bowser gets a % lead he cannot use the stall and therefore cannot win.
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Magus said:
The way I look at it is Boswer would be more of a tournament threat than _____ character that isn't those 3 who is 100% guaranteed to lose and always allow a Fox/Falco to advance, by being the only character besides another Fox that is capable of eliminating a Fox, and will always eliminate any character he faces whether it be win or draw, while Falco beats more of the trash 23 but is guaranteed to allow any Foxes to advance. I can see Falco being above him for straight up winning more matchups (albeit against very insignificant characters), and I shouldn't have grouped Bowser with Fox, but I definitely say he's above the rest of the cast for being able to eliminate all characters including the best and by far the most important one (Fox).

Then again if you're not choosing Fox it's not perfect play as it's the best choice under all circumstances anyway, so I'd say it's more like:

The Only Tier That Matters
Fox

Irrelevant Tier
Everyone else
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So yeah no more discussion on Perfect play read that if you need to know anything.

All discussion about Perfect Play is now a 2 point spam offense from this point on, get back on topic, the last Tier Discussion degenerated into this, it will not happen again.
 
Mogwai

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ok, fine fine, so Fox's shine has an invincibility frame, I don't remember which one, but it's either 1, 2, or 3. If you have perfect control, you can time your shine so that you are invincible when the fair would hit you, which causes the hitbox to disappear, at which point Fox has a big enough frame advantage to punish. Like, if you look at perfect control or pf2, can't remember which one, they did a whole section with moves with invulnerability frames being timed on a fully chanrged Roy neutral B, causing the attack to do nothing. Same thing could be done vs. Marth's fair.

EDIT: I was posting at the same time, Kevin, don't hate me :(
 
KevinM

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Mogwai said:
ok, fine fine, so Fox's shine has an invincibility frame, I don't remember which one, but it's either 1, 2, or 3. If you have perfect control, you can time your shine so that you are invincible when the fair would hit you, which causes the hitbox to disappear, at which point Fox has a big enough frame advantage to punish. Like, if you look at perfect control or pf2, can't remember which one, they did a whole section with moves with invulnerability frames being timed on a fully chanrged Roy neutral B, causing the attack to do nothing. Same thing could be done vs. Marth's fair.

EDIT: I was posting at the same time, Kevin, don't hate me :(
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I have decided you can live...

for now.
 
Cosmo!

Cosmo!

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DrewB008 said:
like i said, aerials never clank, except for some reason occasionally vs falcos forward b ive seen it

and i just remembered against sheiks up b i saw vidjo nair to avoid getting hit once
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cause B moves can be done on the ground, they can also clank in the air.
 
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