Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Ganondorf is the truth.
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PC's fox at OC3 is orgasmic.
cykofox
Smash Ace
that is the same fox at pound 3 and m2k figured it out.
i don't really care for anyone's opinions on who is the best if the person does not place top 3 in a national tournament.
so therefore i always take m2k's as the most legit.
Stev
Smash Ace
I always thought his fox played too much like his falco, which has its pros and cons. I think that's how M2K figured it out.
Scar
#HarveyDent
DrewB008
Smash Lord
i thought m2k started on falco
or are we starting from when he was a top dude
even then he beat ken when he was still a fox main
or are we starting from when he was a top dude
even then he beat ken when he was still a fox main
Laijin
Smash Hero
So the tier list is based completely on M2K and his opinions now?
no, then Sheik would be #1
Grunt
Smash Master
I remember old 02 posts about M2K talking about playing Falco, and how godly luigi was.
Laijin
Smash Hero
But Sheik is the best character in the game.
I agree with M2K on that part.
On a human level, Sheik is the best.
If the person your playing against is a robot with perfect execution in everything he does, then Fox is easily the best character.
But since we all play humans, Sheik wins
Edit: What did I just type?
Scar
#HarveyDent
m2k said very recently that fox is the best
it's largely dependent on tech skill and it's easier to be consistent with sheik but we both think fox is the best and then sheik
marth is 3rd
i think it's silly that nearly everyone agrees on this yet the final melee tier list still has fox/marth tied and then sheik.
it's largely dependent on tech skill and it's easier to be consistent with sheik but we both think fox is the best and then sheik
marth is 3rd
i think it's silly that nearly everyone agrees on this yet the final melee tier list still has fox/marth tied and then sheik.
D
Deleted member
Guest
you have this problem where opinions do not form the tier list, tournament results do. regardless of what you and me or m2k or anyone thinks, since marth has by far the best tournament record, marth is the best.
it doesn't matter who m2k plays now since he can so easily outclass his opponents with 6 or more characters. besides, he already told me over aim that he just counterpicks whoever people play the best, which is closer to no main than anything.
it doesn't matter who m2k plays now since he can so easily outclass his opponents with 6 or more characters. besides, he already told me over aim that he just counterpicks whoever people play the best, which is closer to no main than anything.
HT F8
Hostile Takeover
This seems to confuse a lot of people.
Some say its tourney results, some say character potential, some say blah blah. It would be stupid to base an "official" list on any sort of opinion... since it's all subjective. Tourney results are definately the way2go.
Scar
#HarveyDent
well sure if you're gonna base everything off the same 4 or 5 major tournaments over the past 5 years then yes marth is still the best
right now he isn't and that is also reflected in current tournament results, i cant even remember the last time a marth has won anything significant but it has certainly not been in the past 6 months
right now he isn't and that is also reflected in current tournament results, i cant even remember the last time a marth has won anything significant but it has certainly not been in the past 6 months
pockyD
Smash Legend
psh, played 'perfectly', ice climbers are the best 
there's ****in two of 'em
there's ****in two of 'em
D
Deleted member
Guest
unfortunately, the only major events I can think of for melee this year are event 52 and fast 1. both were won by m2k, who could have won at least event 52 with 5-6 characters no problem, not sure how m2k does vs dashizwiz outside of marth.
edit: as long as the top level of known play stays static from what the community witnessed at OC3 and FCD and pound 3, etc, it is unfair to say that other characters can surpass marth when we have no tournament evidence to back it up.
Scar
#HarveyDent
wow
so your claim is m2k played sheik, cactuar played fox, darkrain plays CF, and this is sufficient to say that marth is the best character because one of the players who won the tourney could have won it with marth?
that makes no sense, what about all the other marths at e52, where were they? THAT'S how this should be approached
so your claim is m2k played sheik, cactuar played fox, darkrain plays CF, and this is sufficient to say that marth is the best character because one of the players who won the tourney could have won it with marth?
that makes no sense, what about all the other marths at e52, where were they? THAT'S how this should be approached
D
Deleted member
Guest
I would agree, but I don't think that event 52 redefined top levels of play. rather, I thought darkrain looked like trash and that the finals (m2k vs cactuar) could have been played in PA/NJ. Knowing cactuar, they probably split so there wasn't even money on the line.
cykofox
Smash Ace
so cactuar mindgamed the **** out of m2k. hmm
that greedy ******* though m2k might have just been showing gratitude for going with him.
regardless though, with his arsenal, i wonder if he secretely thinks he is a better player.
that greedy ******* though m2k might have just been showing gratitude for going with him.
regardless though, with his arsenal, i wonder if he secretely thinks he is a better player.
joeplicate
Smash Master
I love you scar
if that's the case, then you should admit that this tier list is outdated
I also think it's important to distinguish a character's viability and player skill
Laijin
Smash Hero
This argument has obviously lead to the conclusion that this tier list is definantly outdated and by no means should be the "final" tier list.
Scar
#HarveyDent
simply the fact that there is room for argument suggests that it is not convincingly final
the only think making it so is mow lol
9 times out of 10 i'll take his word for it but this time idk bro we're just gonna have to agree to disagree
the only think making it so is mow lol
9 times out of 10 i'll take his word for it but this time idk bro we're just gonna have to agree to disagree
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
lol umbreon i can't believe you said darkrain looked like trash, why because cactuar outplayed him fourth match playing a way dark didn't seem to have much exp in(i recall cactuar saying he revolutionized fox's playing style vs falcon with the footage there), or because m2k cped dark's falcon with sheik? darkrain is good but when you put a falcon against a sheik that is "the best player" right now, what are you expecting considering the matchup is at least 60/40.
sorry that this doesn't pertain to the sbr tier list, but i gotta stand up for my kc smasher darkrain.
sorry that this doesn't pertain to the sbr tier list, but i gotta stand up for my kc smasher darkrain.
DrewB008
Smash Lord
mow, you seem very adamant that we cant use anything but tournament results to determine this, but just a couple pages ago you took the opposite approach when it came to pound 3. you looked at the tournament result but then objectively looked at the character's actual capabilities and came to a different conclusion. this is the approach that needs to be taken all the time, not simply to look at tournament results and call it a day. i actually agree with your end result in both cases, but i just dont think that your argument actually proves anything now.
also, about the whole argument about if people played with perfect execution or w/e:
i dont see how anybody could ever hit a perfect marth with anything, he has a huge disjointed hitbox and his grab range is good enough to grab fox out of midair during his nair
also, about the whole argument about if people played with perfect execution or w/e:
i dont see how anybody could ever hit a perfect marth with anything, he has a huge disjointed hitbox and his grab range is good enough to grab fox out of midair during his nair
pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew
perfect world, Marth has to approach and gets ***** son.
perfect world, Marth has to approach and gets ***** son.
DrewB008
Smash Lord
perfect world he'll just powershield, and lasers dont kill anyway
the argument is dumb in actuality, but marth is the only character that legitimately seems like he would be able to do an attack without risking getting hit himself
the argument is dumb in actuality, but marth is the only character that legitimately seems like he would be able to do an attack without risking getting hit himself
Winston
Smash Master
You really shouldn't start this argument, but suffice to say that:
-projectile powershielding makes projectiles useless
-since shine comes out in one frame and no other move does, fox can shine on reaction to stop any move using shine invincibility, this includes marth's attacks
Laijin
Smash Hero
Your wrong.
Young Link's bomb drop comes out in 1 frame as well. Ties with Fox for fastest move in the game.
In a perfect world, Young Link will win every match. Always. No matter what. If Fox reflects a projectile, he WILL always have projectile stun and young link can easily punish him for it. Bombs defeat all of Fox's aerials and Fox is also too easy to gimp.
Young Link wins the YL/Fox match up in a perfect world.
This argument is stupid.
Binx
Smash Master
In a perfect world of marth swung outside of a punishable range he would get hit with a laser for 3 damage and camped until time ran out. Same if he jumped. Also Fox could shine to clank with anything even in the air. I personally think Ice Climber would be able to create openings with Nana though vs any character and win with Pivots and frame reaction Popo would never be hit, assuming perfect execution and Nana's damage doesn't count for anything, so as soon as someone nailed her with something they would get some damage and the match would be over.
Thankfully though no one will ever be perfect and we will probably not have to watch 3% leads turn into 5 minute camp fests. Hurray.
If YL pulls a bomb he gets lasered, no matter where he does it. With perfect execution fox can ledge camp for invincibility 100% of the time he is there until the match is over. If YL ever puts himself in a vulnerable state while trying to stop him he gets hit as well.
But yes the argument is very stupid.
All arguments about Perfect play from this point is considered spam.
Magus has gone over this millions of time, Fox would win everything Bowser can tie and Falco is outclassed but beats everyone but those two.
Magus you can come in and correct that one fact but from now on
Arguments about perfect play are spam
Magus has gone over this millions of time, Fox would win everything Bowser can tie and Falco is outclassed but beats everyone but those two.
Magus you can come in and correct that one fact but from now on
Arguments about perfect play are spam
Scar
#HarveyDent
Marth does have to approach vs Fox though. In a non-perfect world. And he gets ***** doing so.
Also yeah I think Darkrain played fine @ e52, Cactuar just ***** the balls off of Falcon and M2K's Sheik does the same... though I hoped Dark could do it just to prove that I'm bad and it's not that the matchups are impossible.
Also yeah I think Darkrain played fine @ e52, Cactuar just ***** the balls off of Falcon and M2K's Sheik does the same... though I hoped Dark could do it just to prove that I'm bad and it's not that the matchups are impossible.
D
Deleted member
Guest
when I see a level of play higher than the one represented by this tier list, I will agree that a new one is needed. I don't think that higher level of play has been reached, and certainly not since this was was released only 4 months ago?
I'm not poking at darkrain personally but that is by far the worst I've ever seen him play.
edit: sheik vs falcon is probably the most one-sided match in all of top/high tier play.
I'm not poking at darkrain personally but that is by far the worst I've ever seen him play.
edit: sheik vs falcon is probably the most one-sided match in all of top/high tier play.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Oh Scar you silly goose.
Scar
#HarveyDent
Right and I accept that completely, the only reason the whole thing even started is because the fact that this list is called "final" you are asserting that you will with certainty never see a higher level of play.
...which is a ridiculous assertion to make.
But no right now the list is good even though I think it is wrong, it's just opinion, not a reflection of a more advanced metagame.
D
Deleted member
Guest
normally any unreliable assertion in a future context would be ridiculous, but in light of proper predicting skills, we're on the money so far. also, no national event has taken place since this tier list was released, so the top level of play we strive so hard to observe has not existed in the sense that we can base a tier list from it.
Scar
#HarveyDent
my sig is better then urz
D
Deleted member
Guest
Shouldn't it be Jigglypuff cause she can double rest, using the first one to nullify a shine and the 2nd one to hit fox before he can jump out?
Just saying.
BunBun
Smash Master
You're still asleep from the first rest...
Laijin
Smash Hero
No your not.
If you had perfect fingers, you can mash buttons out that rest to do another one
I personally believe this shouldn't be considered 'final' simply because it's very probable for someone to go above and beyond, only because this is melee. The parameters are so large that it almost gives the player 'infinite' ways to get better and better.
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