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Official MBR Tier List

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DrewB008

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sheik is better vs puff, and ic's are not hard for sheik

to be honest though im still down with marth being the best character in the game, but people who agree with me are getting to be fewer and fewer every day, and i consider the possibility of sheik being better more and more every day

so far though i still think marths got it
 
D

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As always you're just gonna **** Tim sideways lmao but I'm gonna **** you, guess we have to MM too.
I don't take money from my friends. I will play you however much you want though.

Jigglypuff is not higher because she has to seriously outplay any opponent in the top tier to have a chance at winning. In much the same way Fox fights Peach, all 4 top tiers can movement camp jigglypuff fairly easily as long as you're not stupid enough to challenge bair or hit her when she lands.

Yes, I'm saying that Mango outplayed m2k to beat him.

according to chu's tournament record, ICs **** sheik quite badly.
 

Oracle

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You forgot IC's, who can 0-death almost every character, do ridiculous grab combos on everyone else, very consistent kill moves that are fast and have good range, and various infinite.s
 

Radiation

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except you can l-cancel+space and not get grabbed because their grab range is horrible, also they are not very hard to separate with any character that has a decent combo game (read: all of the higher tiers) and once one of them is gone you're at a massive advantage

not to discredit the awesome wavedashing/high-priority/high damage output that the IC's have, they are very good but their grab game does not make up for the rest of their flaws
 

Scar

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m2k doesn't "forget"

mow that actually sort of convinced me. not completely but sort of. i would prob put jiggs on the same level as Falco on a separate tier below top and above high
 

JBM falcon08

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they have to get the grab first, and until chu or wobbles (considering they are the only "well Known" ics) they will remain where they are at.

Doc being ahead of ice climbers? really? don't the ics do much better in all matchups than doc? not only that but ice climbers outplace docs most of the time.

sheik is easily deserving of 2nd spot on the tier list.

also, fox is really the only spacie that gives sheik a hard time falco is not bad at all.
 

Oracle

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Doc would be above IC's because he does better overall against everyone.

Chaingrabs, ridiculous up air/tilt combos, and low percent bair gimp combos

Scar that was priceless
m2k does not "forget"

Also shouldn't the tier list be based on who does better overall than who does better against top tiers?
 

JBM falcon08

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i don't concur with ics being lower than doc, doc does not do better than ics tourney wise which is what should count most because that is what this tier list has been mainly based off of what has "been done" with the character, not what they are capable of.

doc is at a disadvantage with falcon, sheik, marth, falco, not sure bout fox.
ics beat sheik, lose to marth, beat falco(from what i've witnessed for like 2 years). falcon i think is an even matchup for ics although chu seems to get pooped by certain falcons, and get beat by fox.

i only mention these characters because that is what we see at tourneys and that is normally what your competition is at your local/national tourney bracket.

i don't mention peach because i have no idea how that works, nor do i know how jiggs performs against the two of them.

when you talk about poor grab range that really only matters with top tiers, considering the only mid tiers that have decent range are ganon dk and samus.

i want a better explanation as to why ics are below doc(although it doesn't really matter bcuz the tier list says ics>doc), i want an intelligent debate not a flame.
 

HT F8

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fox and sheik are clearly top 2, marth is 3rd falco is 4th jiggs/falcon are 5/6 peach is 7 but very close to 5/6 and maybe on their level imo she's slightly worse than falcon jiggs though that's pretty debatable and doc is 8th

after that doesn't matter
Doc is definately not better than Samus. /bias
 

Eggm

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IC's then samus in that order should both be above doc IMO. I would even say ganon too. I haven't seen a doc do anything in a very long time.
 

DrewB008

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icies dont beat sheik anymore

their cg on her isnt even as good as their cg on fox/falco/falcon, and she can needle camp them and fair relatively unpunishably

good players arent gonna let their sheik get grabbed out of nowhere, and even then icies can only get her to like 80 off a grab, they cant 0-death her

falco i dont think is that bad against icies either, but still advantage icies by a little
 

Binx

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Ice Climbers can 0 to death sheik now, we do a brawl chain grab using the ledge to force nana to throw a certain direction for regrabs, and at low percents we can dthrow dair sheik into regrabs, pushing her closer to the ledges.

Everything else you said is true though, she has more range, and a great projectile, the only level ICs have a reasonable shot on is FD and even then its not very realistic.

If we did tiers entirely based on tournament results Falco and Fox would dominate because most newer players use them, the same way MK dominates brawls tiers, although in his case he is the best character undoubtedly. We do our tier system more based on the best Marth the best Sheik, the best Fox, the best Falco, the best Peach, the best Ice Climber, and the match ups of the characters. Right now Fox is number 1 because he has great match ups and great people who use him, same with Marth being number 2, either character could be first, its not much difference. The best Peach has done more than the best samus, and so on, plus Peachs match ups are good, and she has some good techs if you are good enough. Although after playing as Jiggs recently I would have to agree that she is above Falcon and Peach. But then again I think ICs should be above Falcon too since the best IC players tend to outplace the best Falcons. But whatever it doesn't matter, Falcon is awesome.

Oh and I think it should be Ganon Doc Samus starting off mid tier.
 

pockyD

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ICs only "****" sheik on FD (and maybe corneria)

also, the fact that ICs and marth suck donkey balls on most of the legal CP stages should be held against them, whereas the fact that jigglypuff has stuff like mute city at her disposal is a big deal too
 

Scar

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@ kirbykaze wtf why

fox is IMO very obviously the best character in the game

very many options, very reliable killing power, easily racks up damage, one of the best projectiles in the game, gimping ability, a very versatile recovery

the only contender IMO is sheik and she can't overwhelm characters as well as Fox can. marth is definitely not the best character in the game.
 

Stev

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The only reason Marth is that high is because of his matchup against fox/falco since there is so many of those players out there. That and the last 2 "greatest melee players ever" both played Marth. It's a shame that KDJ quit when he did because he was really developing sheik, which could have influenced a lot more people especially to counter Marth. He took down M2K in MLG Long Island in 07, winning both sets in singles finals.
 

KirbyKaze

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@ kirbykaze wtf why

fox is IMO very obviously the best character in the game

very many options, very reliable killing power, easily racks up damage, one of the best projectiles in the game, gimping ability, a very versatile recovery

the only contender IMO is sheik and she can't overwhelm characters as well as Fox can. marth is definitely not the best character in the game.
I think Sheik is the best.

I think her pressure is really broken and she has better inescapable combos on the space animals than they have on her (her tech chasing on them from d-throw is basically guaranteed, none of this "it's hard to do" crap from bad people please; it's easy). I guess there's a point that he has a very versatile recovery and superior overall ground game, but Sheik's damage on them, better range, and almost equally homosexual ground game (and arguably superior platform game but I'm not touching that one) makes her the better character.

Her blatantly ****** Marth is also something I like. Fox might beat Marth by a small margin because of bullshit reasons like the ability to counterpick to Corneria or some crap like that, or because of the direction the moon shines when the planets are aligned, etc. But he does not completely eviscerate him the way Sheik does.

The only matchups I think that are hard for her are space animals and Jigglypuff. And Jigglypuff isn't really hard so much as it is stupidly gay. And I think the space animals are even, so her worst matchup (IMO) is even. That's pretty busted stuff.
 

Binx

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at a high level of play it seems like Fox's worst match is even, as is Sheik, and Marth, Falco only slightly less so. What makes Sheik so broken to me is the ease of play, its difficult to make mistakes, where as with Fox you have to be more technically sound, so even though there is very little chance of making a mistake its still there, with sheik that chance is lessened even more.
 

KirbyKaze

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Falco has more even and dumb matchups than the top 3. That's why he's 4rth silly.

Marth gets ***** by Sheik.

Falco doesn't get ***** by anyone imo but he's got a lot of even stuff and is generally easier to make mistakes with than the other 3.

Sheik and Fox are the only ones where debate can be had for being best character.
 

Scar

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I always said that Sheik was the best too but recently changed my mind

Marth is definitely 3rd, Jiggs/Falco are right below him but definitely below him and definitely above CF, and CF is above Peach IMO
 

Stev

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at a high level of play it seems like Fox's worst match is even, as is Sheik, and Marth, Falco only slightly less so. What makes Sheik so broken to me is the ease of play, its difficult to make mistakes, where as with Fox you have to be more technically sound, so even though there is very little chance of making a mistake its still there, with sheik that chance is lessened even more.
Ironically, this has hindered the development of her metagame because not many of the top pros want to play her. There is more discussion in the zelda forums than in the sheik forums, which seems really backwards to me. I still think sheik has room to improve, but not many of the top pros seem to want to take on that task. Looks like I know what i'm doing with my life now :)
 

Witchking_of_Angmar

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at a high level of play it seems like Fox's worst match is even, as is Sheik, and Marth, Falco only slightly less so. What makes Sheik so broken to me is the ease of play, its difficult to make mistakes, where as with Fox you have to be more technically sound, so even though there is very little chance of making a mistake its still there, with sheik that chance is lessened even more.
I disagree. Technical skill is easy to perfect and even easier to train. I think once a Fox develops the necessary technical skill as well as sound movement and a smart play style, he has a much easier time than Sheik. Sheik has to actively force openings in her opponents, whereas I think Fox can pretty much take advantage of situations that simply emerge over the course of the match. It may be difficult to make mistakes with Sheik, but Fox can take advantage of openings that aren't even necessarily caused by direct "mistakes."

Or something like that.
 

Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
@ Cosmo: there is literally no mathematical property that supports that claim.

I've never played Banks.

I haven't played Reno in awhile, but he used to win about 6 out of 10 against me or so, but that was back when he was a lot better than me as opposed to now when I think I'm starting to catch up to tristate a bit.

I go close to even with PC's sheik, and it's like, pretty good and stuff.
 

Binx

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I was basically agreeing with Scar.

Also Witching I agree with you as well, I've never believed Sheik was the best character in the game, I probably never will, I just think that in the top 4 characters its fairly negligible. Sheik has a lot of very simple spacing and move tricks, fair grab or fair jab vs a shield, thats a deadly mix up, a good sheik can keep almost any character under a lot of direct pressure from that alone. Added with her impressive gimping abilities you have a solid character. You need to have a very good understanding of spacing and good ability to read your opponents to play her at a high level, so mentally she is more difficult than Fox who can vs bad-moderate opponents auto pilot the match with tech skill and a few mix ups the way a Falco could.

But purely speaking at top levels of the US metagame, all of the top 4 are pretty comparable in terms of power, I love melee because its the players that make the real difference.
 

Binx

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I have more trouble vs Falco, but thats probably because I have more trouble vs the Falco player I play rather than the actual character.
 
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the characters that are the best in the game are the best because you are most likely to win a top level tournament with those characters. Therefore, Marth is the best. Fox is probably as good or better than marth, but not for winning tournaments, as he is too easy to be inconsistent with. when that doesn't happen, we get vids like PC Chris from OC3. But the tier list does not dabble with "potential", it is supposed to only reflect tournament placements from our best players.

it also means that sheik is somewhere between 3rd and 6th. Not too sure on that, but I do know offhand that Marth is the best and fox is the 2nd best statistically.

and don't give me the bull**** about how it's the players, because we can observe that m2k and ken both did worse as fox than they did as marth.
 

Strong Badam

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both ken and m2k used Fox first and then switched to Marth... time gaps can explain their better placings.
 
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