Don't forget Pink Shinobi
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Wouldn't this mean the evidence points to Peach not being as strong a character as Puff? If only one peach in recent years has managed to only get second why is Peach still the better character? Why does peach earn a higher spot than a character that has constantly been placing better than her?
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Because of character potential?
Did you not notice how Fox didn't even place top 8 at Genesis, yet Fox is still considered the best character in the game?
Did you not notice how Fox didn't even place top 8 at Genesis, yet Fox is still considered the best character in the game?
What potential? What new techniques are suddenly going to be discovered for Peach that's going to make her better? What player is going to come out who's better than Armada or Cort or Mike G or Pink Shinobi that's suddenly going to prove that Peach deserves her spot?
Fox at least has a half decade of wins below his belt, what does Peach have?
Fox at least has a half decade of wins below his belt, what does Peach have?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
hm
top 7 characters all have even matchups with each other for the most part
besides random 60:40's or 55:45's scattered around here and there
so i think as long as they are all top 7, it doesnt really matter. they are all viable to win a tourny. perhaps maybe falcon may be falling behind a little but honestly not by much.
the only real change i see in the metagame (since this tier list was created) besides players just getting better...
i think ic's have fallen behind, and doc is better than them now. i could be biased cuz we have shroomed and hmw on the west coast tho.
top 7 characters all have even matchups with each other for the most part
besides random 60:40's or 55:45's scattered around here and there
so i think as long as they are all top 7, it doesnt really matter. they are all viable to win a tourny. perhaps maybe falcon may be falling behind a little but honestly not by much.
the only real change i see in the metagame (since this tier list was created) besides players just getting better...
i think ic's have fallen behind, and doc is better than them now. i could be biased cuz we have shroomed and hmw on the west coast tho.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
idk chars like falcon/jiggs/peach get hit really hard by their bad match-ups w/ fox/marth, and sheik/falco for falcon. those are the most common characters in tourney, too.
top 7 are tourney viable though.
top 7 are tourney viable though.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
well honestly it comes down to who are the otp players right now
genesis definitely showed that falcon/puff/peach can still hang with the characters who are supposedly better
i know falcon has a really bad matchup against sheik, but he still has decent matchups with the rest of the top 7, and not everyone can play a gay tech chasing/gimping sheik in tourny.
honestly if u made a matchup web for all the top 7 characters, no matchup would be more than 60:40 disadvantage
except maybe falcon vs sheik, that sounds like the worst one IMO. puff falco seems pretty bad as well but still, falco has a lot of stuff he can do.
the rest are all proven to be adaptable
genesis definitely showed that falcon/puff/peach can still hang with the characters who are supposedly better
i know falcon has a really bad matchup against sheik, but he still has decent matchups with the rest of the top 7, and not everyone can play a gay tech chasing/gimping sheik in tourny.
honestly if u made a matchup web for all the top 7 characters, no matchup would be more than 60:40 disadvantage
except maybe falcon vs sheik, that sounds like the worst one IMO. puff falco seems pretty bad as well but still, falco has a lot of stuff he can do.
the rest are all proven to be adaptable
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Falco Falcon?
unknown522
Some guy
And Cactuar.
And Lucky. And ColBol.
betterthanbonds9
Smash Ace
I thought most people had good foxes >_<
it's just that they choose to use other characters because they are better with the "other"
doesn't every falco main tend to also have a fox that's also good? Shiz uses one against hbox, Zhu uses it against hbox and pink shinobi. M2K also has a great fox. Honestly, most players have foxes (even armada
lol)
it's just that it's hard to find somebody that mains fox and not some other top/high tier, but they almost always have him as a trump card
-im refering to incredibly good players, not literally everybody, in case somebody reads this incorrectly
it's just that they choose to use other characters because they are better with the "other"
doesn't every falco main tend to also have a fox that's also good? Shiz uses one against hbox, Zhu uses it against hbox and pink shinobi. M2K also has a great fox. Honestly, most players have foxes (even armada
lol)it's just that it's hard to find somebody that mains fox and not some other top/high tier, but they almost always have him as a trump card
-im refering to incredibly good players, not literally everybody, in case somebody reads this incorrectly
Scidadle
Smash Champion
choknater
Smash Obsessed
lol yeah, betterthanbonds9 is right.
shiz and zhu especially. they use fox for puff pretty much indefinitely. zhu uses fox against zhu
the fox mains are definitely still up there
genesis just proved that top 7 characters are all viable to win. so i dont think the order really matters all that much, we just know that
fox falco sheik marth are probably the best
falcon and jiggs are not as great but can still win
peach can be the greatest or worst among those 7, it depends, shes just peach
shiz and zhu especially. they use fox for puff pretty much indefinitely. zhu uses fox against zhu
the fox mains are definitely still up there
genesis just proved that top 7 characters are all viable to win. so i dont think the order really matters all that much, we just know that
fox falco sheik marth are probably the best
falcon and jiggs are not as great but can still win
peach can be the greatest or worst among those 7, it depends, shes just peach
NES n00b
Smash Master
Zhu uses fox against zhu? I guess Zhu wants to trick himself by using his fox which zhu's falco has no experience against.
betterthanbonds9
Smash Ace
Now i want to see Zhu TAS (i guess it's only TA) himself fox vs falco
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
I would camp myself so hard. True fact.
Wikipedia
Smash Lord
This has got me thinking, what if you made a program where you could play yourself. Like, just have the two characters start on different and equal sides of the stage and you would do inputs for character number one and the program would make it so you would do the same input but directionally backwards for the second character.
Then, theoretically, you could fight yourself, but you could only technically fight in the exact middle of the map, and everything would clash.
...I never said it would be a realistic program.
Then, theoretically, you could fight yourself, but you could only technically fight in the exact middle of the map, and everything would clash.
...I never said it would be a realistic program.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
LMAO nice wikipedia
i meant zhu uses fox against peach >_<
what a typo
i meant zhu uses fox against peach >_<
what a typo
betterthanbonds9
Smash Ace
mess with a wavebird a bit so that one receiver reads the r/l incorrectly?
without doing anything like that you can still start a match and get them to the center and make the 2 wavebird receivers teh same frequency for fun stuff like 2 punches colliding
lol
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Fighting yourself would be such a challenge lol.. to overcome yourself is like.. transcending. I myself would become greater than a warrior. lol. Though Ganon dittos are BS haha.
Afro_Chris
Smash Ace
warrior < samurai get it right kage
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Until you win a tournament don't gimme that! =D
unknown522
Some guy
KK posting:
I'd hate playing me.
I'd hate playing me.
CluelessBTD
Smash Ace
In smash, SDing when outmatched has never been respected. Fighting to the finish is honorable. Gladiator > everthing
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I'm with Clue lol.
I'd like to see Cactuar fight himself.. just to see how the "don't get hit" strat works out
I'd like to see Cactuar fight himself.. just to see how the "don't get hit" strat works out
lordvaati
Smash Master
chart update: apparently, according to Smashwiki,the tie is broken. Cap is 6th(8.1), Jiggs is 7th(8.0). it might have been vandalism though, so I'm not sure...
Divinokage
Smash Legend
That's called being a warrior. Gladiators fight to survive, they don't fight to prove anything.
I fight for my friends to win.
:D
:D
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Jiggs should be higher then falcon.She priority ***** just about everyone and has better overall match-ups then the captain. Sheik alone does worse stuff to Captain falcon then anyone in the top does to Jiggs, and his only advantage in the top is a really tiny one to marth.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Falcon/Marth is highly stage dependent.
Kage's posts are always so epic lol
Kage's posts are always so epic lol
SergeantNoob
Smash Rookie
Meh...
i dont think tiers help the way you fight in melee.
I mean what really matters is the way you play as your character and using the stage itself as an advantage.
Sure, some characters can have advantages by using projectiles, being a speedy character, etc.
I mean look at Gimpyfish, he mains bowser, a "bottom tier" character, but he could destroy a "high tier" character.
Personally i think its the strategy you put in a particular stage that matters(those counterpicking things).
its a if im saying all characters that have projectiles should go on high tier.
Correct me if im wrong, I have yet to learn...
i dont think tiers help the way you fight in melee.
I mean what really matters is the way you play as your character and using the stage itself as an advantage.
Sure, some characters can have advantages by using projectiles, being a speedy character, etc.
I mean look at Gimpyfish, he mains bowser, a "bottom tier" character, but he could destroy a "high tier" character.
Personally i think its the strategy you put in a particular stage that matters(those counterpicking things).
its a if im saying all characters that have projectiles should go on high tier.
Correct me if im wrong, I have yet to learn...
blaze5
Smash Rookie
nice list and samus aced it 21 ftw
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
Sorry man, but you are wrong. Tiers do exist. DJ Nintendo and Gimpyfish both use Bowser, and at a high level of play they can NOT destroy the high and top tiers. Low levels of play and high levels are completely different. When starting out tiers do not matter nearly as much as they do once you start incorporating Advanced Techniques, AT's.
Using the stage to your advantage is great and all, but besides Peach on Mute City, winning a match is not stage dependent at high levels of play. But using a low tier vs a top tier is tier dependent. There is a reason why Taj's Mewtwo or Gimpy's Bowser, or DJ Nintendo's Bowser haven't won a tournament...yet
. Low levels - sure tiers aren't important. High levels - you better believe it son!
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Sorry man, but you are wrong. Tiers do exist. DJ Nintendo and Gimpyfish both use Bowser, and at a high level of play they can NOT destroy the high and top tiers. Low levels of play and high levels are completely different. When starting out tiers do not matter nearly as much as they do once you start incorporating Advanced Techniques, AT's.
Using the stage to your advantage is great and all, but besides Peach on Mute City, winning a match is not stage dependent at high levels of play. But using a low tier vs a top tier is tier dependent. There is a reason why Taj's Mewtwo or Gimpy's Bowser, or DJ Nintendo's Bowser haven't won a tournament...yet
Low levels - sure tiers aren't important. High levels - you better believe it son!
I think ur both wrong. Dj nintendo and gimpy could destroy a top tier character/player because they themselves are good players. But then again look at how many tourneys are won by bowsers and other low/bottom tier characters.
It does matter how good u are wit a certain character and how u play but higher tier characters tend to be able to do the same thing a lower tier character could do with much more ease.
Tiers exist for a reason, but that doesnt mean that a low tier character cannot compete at top lvl.
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
Yeah I basically ruled out skill in my post, which I shouldn't have. I think for the most part the low tiers can compete because people don't know the matchups and their weaknesses combined with individual player skill though. Exactly what you said - low tier characters don't win tournys and I don't know if even Mango, Armada, or m2k could do so with Bowser or Mewtwo or any other low tier. The characters inherent disadvantages are too great.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
At high level competitive play with players that are actually good, a low tier character like Bowser should never win. If you see a Bowser player actually win, then clearly that player is both less skilled than the Bowser player and they also aren't very good at all.
For example, look at Genesis Melee Singles. There isn't a single Bowser main in the top 50. Low tier characters obviously aren't as good as high tier chars, but they also have little potential no matter what person plays that character. Even Mango playing Kirby could not beat another top player even if Mango could read that player perfectly.
For example, look at Genesis Melee Singles. There isn't a single Bowser main in the top 50. Low tier characters obviously aren't as good as high tier chars, but they also have little potential no matter what person plays that character. Even Mango playing Kirby could not beat another top player even if Mango could read that player perfectly.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Lucky lost to Gimpyfish at one of the socal/norcal tournies at some point (Gimpy's best placing I think). It really comes down to matchup experience, Lucky probably never played a good Bowser in his life (and gimpy probably got yoshi's random, then yoshi's CP or something lol). I'm just saying that flukes do happen between top and low tiers.
And I think if someone could read PERFECTLY with Kirby that Kirby would win. How could he not if he was reacting to everything perfectly?
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
I'm talking about reading somebody at a limited, human perspective, not theoretical play where you could read somebody frame-by-frame without reaction delay and have frame perfect DI and such, similar to what you would see in a TAS.
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