Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Ghostbone]

Jiggs is broken in PAL D:

 

[Ripple]

Sheik should be above Jiggs because she has better MUs. I don't see any plausible reason why she should be any lower than she is. Therefore you are clearly trolling

I forgot this was a match up chart... oh wait...

its an indication of a meta game. which takes into account character popularity. marth is much more popular and does better in tournament than most sheiks.

so what if sheik has better match ups? marth is a bigger threat in the meta game

 

[KirbyKaze]

wait, what?

when has marth (not counting m2k because he uses sheik half the time) outplaced sheik?

 

[Pink Reaper]

There was that one tournament that Falcomist got 2nd at using nothing but marth. You know, the one where no one used Sheik? That one.

 

[KirbyKaze]

>__<

I should revise that to "tournaments with both high level Marth and Sheik players".

 

[Ripple]

why do they have to be high level?

marth is a bigger threat because he is more popular, that's what I said.

inb4matchupspread

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Aren't tier lists supposed to be reflective of the highest current level of play?

 

[Ripple]

Aren't tier lists supposed to be reflective of the highest current level of play?

A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results.

marth is better since they have a similar match up spread (with characters that matter) and marth is more popular.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Recent, relevant tournament results sort-of implies a pretty high level of play >_>

I mean, I'm not going to expect Foxes to start winning tournaments in my state when the best player is a Falcon main.

 

[Ripple]

Recent, relevant tournament results sort-of implies a pretty high level of play >_>

I mean, I'm not going to expect Foxes to start winning tournaments in my state when the best player is a Falcon main.

relevant ( in my eyes) means big turn outs. not ( just) high level player turn outs

 

[Grim Tuesday]

relevent ( in my eyes) means big turn outs. not high level player turn outs

There is an annual 256 person Brawl tournament in my state.

Roughly 1/256th of the people playing actually know what they are doing.

I don't expect the top 8 to consist of Meta Knight/Snake/Diddy Kong/etc...

 

[Ripple]

There is an annual 256 person Brawl tournament in my state.

Roughly 1/256th of the people playing actually know what they are doing.

I don't expect the top 8 to consist of Meta Knight/Snake/Diddy Kong/etc...

then your tier list should be dramatically different than ours

 

[Grim Tuesday]

then your tier list should be dramatically different than ours

Wait, what?

You're suggesting different tier lists for different areas now?

Or am I mis-interpreting?

 

[Ripple]

Wait, what?

You're suggesting different tier lists for different areas now?

Or am I mis-interpreting?

well, yeah. australia should have its own tier list based on its meta game. you guys are kinda isolated.

north american's encompass the united states and canada. mexico has its own.

 

[KirbyKaze]

why do they have to be high level?

because low/mid level play is mostly won by who hits more l-cancels

character quality barely enters into it

 

[Grim Tuesday]

well, yeah. australia should have its own tier list based on its meta game. you guys are kinda isolated.

north american's encompass the united states and canada. mexico has its own.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have two lists (one PAL, one NTSC) that order characters based on how good they are, and then separate lists for each different area based on popularity of characters, then?

 

[Ripple]

Wouldn't it make more sense to have two lists (one PAL, one NTSC) that order characters based on how good they are, and then separate lists for each different area based on popularity of characters, then?

the characters are listed based on who's good according to who?

do you see the problem?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

the characters are listed based on who's good according to who?

do you see the problem?

According to the Melee Back Room?

It doesn't take a genius to show that Fox is better than Pichu.

 

[Ripple]

According to the Melee Back Room?

It doesn't take a genius to show that Fox is better than Pichu.

which is composed of mostly NA players....

you suggested that we make a list based on who's good in NTSC first. if the MBR does that, it already shows the NA tier list. splitting it up into region is pointless. it shows bias. it would not reflect who the japanese think is the best

same for PAL. if the EUBR makes a list. it shows their biases. it could be drastically different from australia or anywhere else that has PAL.

sorry but I'm tired and I'm bad at putting thoughts into words. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. I'm out for the night

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Then you could develop a better back-room with as little region bias as possible?

What you said isn't a fault with the method, it's a fault of one of the ingredients.

 

[The Star King]

so what if sheik has better match ups? marth is a bigger threat in the meta game

Marth is a bigger threat?

Ripple seems like the type of person who played Melee up to Brawl's release, barely plays anymore because of Brawl, and still thinks he knows what he's talking about in Melee terms even though his perception of the metagame is based mostly off 2007 and earlier.

 

[Pink Reaper]

That's still better than Mow, who's perception of the metagame is based in 2005(YEAH I SAID IT MAX)

That said Ripple is also wrong lol.

 

[CloneHat]

Lots of people in my area play Kirby

so naturally my local tier list will have Kirby at the top

although that's bias.

 

[Ocean]

Lots of people in my area play Kirby

so naturally my local tier list will have Kirby at the top

although that's bias.

not necessarily. you may have kirby at the lowest, due to knowing how to play the matchup and thus know how to exploit his suckiness. while someone who doesn't know the matchup might struggle because they don't know what to do.

 

[CloneHat]

not necessarily. you may have kirby at the lowest, due to knowing how to play the matchup and thus know how to exploit his suckiness. while someone who doesn't know the matchup might struggle because they don't know what to do.

You should read Ripple's posts. More people play Kirby, so he is obviously a bigger threat.

 

[Dark Hart]

My State is filled with Falcos, but none of us really think Falco is #1...

I don't get this conversation

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm baffled as to how it's so ****ing difficult to fathom that other people have different opinions than you, or this list itself.
Just... stop.

EDIT: this is to everyone who says that anyone else is wrong when there's at least a decent amount of support for that person's perspective

 

[KAOSTAR]

That's still better than Mow, who's perception of the metagame is based in 2005(YEAH I SAID IT MAX)

That said Ripple is also wrong lol.

is mow the same as umbreon mow?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth and Shiek should be above Jiggs.

cuz...

You guys hype Jiggs up too much. She isn't as good or godlike as you guys think. Marth is definitely much more of a broken character then Jiggs. And Sheik is just simple to learn and she has amazing priority/kill potential.

It's 2011 now. Stop thinking Jiggs is that good.

Possibly valid placements.

Horrible support.

Try again.

 

[The Star King]

So are Rhan and Laijin like long lost brothers or something? I don't get it.

 

[rhan]

My State is filled with Falcos, but none of us really think Falco is #1...

I don't get this conversation

Well..

That's because you're with PP. And a bunch of other Falco players.

Of course no one's going to think their character is the best. But Falco is definitely either 1st or 2nd.

KK you know I don't like to explain myself. But you know it's true. So explain my argument for me. <3

Actually Laijin is my father.

 

[Laijin]

I only have one son.
His name is Rhan

 

[Dark Hart]

I don't think he is...

I still think Marth is better...

 

[KirbyKaze]

rhan, I could probably guess (accurately) why you feel the way you do but I don't agree with it at all... I've lately been toying with the idea that Sheik is better than Puff. But I'm still fairly unconvinced Marth is obviously better than Puff. Perhaps it's because I mostly just care about MUs amongst the upper half of the tier list...

 

[rhan]

A Tier list incorporates all the characters. Just not the upper half.

So if one is trying to argue for an entire tier list Jiggs as those random even and disadvantage match-ups with lower tier'd characters. While Marth beats those characters.

But Jiggs does do fairly better then Marth does with the Upper half of the cast.



BUT to reiterate myself.



A tier list is about all characters. Not only the upper half.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Though the upper half is MUCH more important that the lower half.

 

[x After Dawn x]

but it gets more important as you approach the upper characters because those are not only the most important characters in the metagame, but they're also the most frequent. look at the 48 man bracket for apex, pound 4, etc. and tell me what % of them is higher tier characters.

edit: ninja'd by grim

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you want to weigh all the characters equally, and evenly, then fine. Puff is probably worse than Marth, or even power with Marth.

On a side note... I really think the "Puff ain't good" camp exaggerates how many low tiers are actually good against Puff, but... that's another matter entirely.

At any rate, I don't believe in weighing the characters evenly. I think there should be bias towards the MUs in the upper half, because those are the ones that, well, happen. This is also largely because the low tiers are significantly less explored in a high level play environment, and I really don't like anecdotal evidence (especially when the low tier still loses).

 

[Dark Hart]

umm... higher tiered characters are more likely to be seen in tournament play then lower tiered characters, so why shouldn't the high tiered match-ups be taken into consideration more than the lower tiered characters?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

c: