Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Zoler]

Sheik goes even with Fox

What have you been smoking son?

 

[Crooked Crow]

55:45 -> 50:50 constitutes an "even" matchup. At least in NTSC, it is.

 

[KirbyKaze]

KirbyKaze picked up Peach for Ice Climbers, last time I checked. It's a bad matchup.

Only Ice Climbers and Jigglypuff "beat" Sheik.

I dunno if I'd have to balls to use her vs. Wobbles or Fly because I hear they have a thing for beating "pocket-Peach". I pull her out in that MU more because I have no vs. ICs experience (except one set with Trail) and I'm not good at the Sheik spacing in that matchup and that gives them free grabs too much lawl

 

[Divinokage]

Uncomfortable? Are you serious? Marth gets either of these characters off-stage, good game.

Pretty sure he's serious, learn 2 play Falcon and Ganon first vs Marth.. then you can give a more accurate conclusion about the matchup.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah, Falcon Marth is kind of a grey area. I'm pretty sure Falcon has enough illegitimate death combos and traps on Marth to OHKO him off a clean hit if Marth makes a mistake or two during the combo, or if Falcon makes a good call (or reaction or whatever bull**** the situation demands).

Kage and Linguini **** all the Marths and I don't really hear about RockCrock losing to Marths. It looks like a crappy MU on paper but they always do well in it. Ganons probably have some secret technology. Like Uair. And Fair. Or D-throw. Or F-tilt. I dunno lawl.

lawl at Andy saying Marth gets Falcon and Ganon off the stage to GG them. Falcon and Ganon do the same thing to Marth >_>

 

[Divinokage]

Well it's normally GG for Falcon and Ganon regardless of character lol. I mean if i was able to beat Azen and M2k's marth then it must mean something, right? It's not super terrible, it's still a tough matchup but it's pretty close to even imo.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Pretty sure he's serious, learn 2 play Falcon and Ganon first vs Marth.. then you can give a more accurate conclusion about the matchup.

I secondary Ganondorf and Luigi. I'm aware at how bad the Marth matchup can be.

It's not that severe, but not really "uncomfortable" for Marth.

lawl at Andy saying Marth gets Falcon and Ganon off the stage to GG them. Falcon and Ganon do the same thing to Marth >_>

They definitely don't have as many options overall compared to Marth.

 

[Divinokage]

I secondary Ganondorf and Luigi. I'm aware at how bad the Marth matchup can be.

It's not that severe, but not really "uncomfortable" for Marth.



They definitely don't have as many options overall compared to Marth.

Ever look at it from a Marth perspective? It's very uncomfortable. You realize one simple spacing mistake can lead to pretty disgusting things as Marth can be comboed rather easily with Ganon/Falcon. Marth of course has very good combos on both as well but what exactly you mean by options? Falcon/Ganon have enough options to be able to shut down Marth effectively, the opposite too. It would be cool if you would explain yourself instead of making BS one liners that don't mean anything.

 

[strawhats]

Well it's normally GG for Falcon and Ganon regardless of character lol. I mean if i was able to beat Azen and M2k's marth then it must mean something, right? It's not super terrible, it's still a tough matchup but it's pretty close to even imo.

you've played m2k's marth before...how did your matches go.

 

[strawhats]

Well it's normally GG for Falcon and Ganon regardless of character lol. I mean if i was able to beat Azen and M2k's marth then it must mean something, right? It's not super terrible, it's still a tough matchup but it's pretty close to even imo.

you've played m2k's marth before...how did your matches go?

Sorry for the double post.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Ever look at it from a Marth perspective? It's very uncomfortable. You realize one simple spacing mistake can lead to pretty disgusting things as Marth can be comboed rather easily with Ganon/Falcon. Marth of course has very good combos on both as well but what exactly you mean by options? Falcon/Ganon have enough options to be able to shut down Marth effectively, the opposite too. It would be cool if you would explain yourself instead of making BS one liners that don't mean anything.

It's applicable for both sides. It doesn't need explaining, Marth is overall better and has safer options for various things.

There are not many top level Marth players besides Mew2King. Pretty sure he'd **** those characters.

 

[Beat!]

You mean like when he played against P.C Chris?

 

[Divinokage]

you've played m2k's marth before...how did your matches go?

Sorry for the double post.

It was like 2 years ago I think but I did 2-0 his Marth at tourneyplay. And then he 12-0 me with his Sheik.. **** Sheik lol. I know I can do it, I came pretty close 3 times.. it's just little positioning or technical mistakes that costed me. You really can't **** up once vs M2k. And next time if I face him, I'm definitely not being nice with the no CG agreement. CG will be on, maybe he'll change char, in that case.. I hope so.

Andy, you are completely off.

 

[KirbyKaze]

We have an issue of relativity. Compared to Sheik/Falco/Fox/Puff, Marth is not as good against Ganon and Falcon. Which is why some people are saying it's an uncomfortable MU for Marth, which I think is understandable.

Kage beat M2K's Marth at some point in a MM. Or at least that's how the story goes. I don't remember where I heard that though.

edit: Kage *****



Andy is dumb ignore him he doesn't know what high level play is like especially regarding Marth's recovery vs characters like Ganon and Falcon.

 

[Crooked Crow]

I agree it's an even matchup, but this is why I'm nitpicky about it being "uncomfortable" for Marth.

They both have tools to assist them which influences the matchup, but I just think Marth is a better designed character to exploit specific weaknesses.

Kage, really? But then again you are incredible at this game. I personally think it's only a slight advantage, and only that, in Marth's favour.

 

[Divinokage]

It's just like Roy on paper seems pretty damn good, but when you actually fight.. it's a whole different story. You can only theorize so much. Design doesn't mean anything, you have to understand the tools one character has, and your own tools. If you do then it's all a matter of making the better decisions at the right times. It's really not that bad.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Andy is dumb ignore him he doesn't know what high level play is like especially regarding Marth's recovery vs characters like Ganon and Falcon.

LoL. How flattering.

I said it was an even matchup. Stop biting my head off.

 

[Archangel]

Marth > falcon, peach, ganon.
just because armada can beat marths doesn't make it a good matchup..
you serious.. ganon?!?!?
Link, Pikachu, Mario, Doc, Luigi, DK, IC's, Link. marth ***** all of these characters pretty bad on most neutrals imo..

I can show you more than Marth losing to all of those characters on more than one occasion if you'd like but it's all possible. Generally Marth ***** the bulk of them but they can potentially beat him if they have the knowledge. Still all in his favor though.

As for Marth vs Peach I'm so sick of people bringing up Armada as if...he's the only peach to beat Marth. You haven't been paying attention I guess....

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG7g1YWiLew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0OT93yMNaw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Y1BF4oPUI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF1fzqqLaqY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB6mHrETbJo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byr5TRG2pt8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bYRiVb4Bvg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzAqXMc-pgg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWeajQr-168
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW4v0d7sJAw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFEOrrRlv8M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llwd0fNNx8w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzQ0Eldv2qw (yeah Armada is still doing it)

it's happening all around the world these days...you should move to 2011...

 

[x After Dawn x]

lol aAndy...

 

[KirbyKaze]

LoL. How flattering.

I said it was an even matchup. Stop biting my head off.

I will when you stop being stupid?

 

[Divinokage]

Some say Falcon beats Marth slightly, I can definitely see that these days.. even more proof that it's uncomfortable for Marth. =) I do think Marth beats Ganon slightly though. But to me, none of this matters.. the way I feel between Ganon/Marth when I play, I find it really easy.

I'm also starting to finally feel comfortable playing vs Falco finally after all these years!! ****!! PP!!!!! I'm coming for you!! lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

it's happening all around the world these days...you should move to 2011...

Okay, a few things about Youtube

1) You're using randoms vs other randoms, which is a poor argument.

2) You have like 1, maybe 2 notable Marth players in those videos but you have MacD, Connor (when he was still playing), DoH, etc. for your Peach players. You have Peach players that make bracket at large events and place well locally (sometimes even win) versus Marths that don't even win locals or break pools... which (to me) suggests there's a skill difference between the players. I think DoH will beat BK_McRoyale_55 in that matchup even if it sucks for Peach just because DoH isn't BK_McRoyale_55.

3) No offense was intended to any players actually named BK_McRoyale_55.

 

[Crooked Crow]

I will when you stop being stupid?

Even though there really wasn't a disagreement? Sure thing, David.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I said I can understand why people would consider it uncomfortable. It is because they are comparing how Falcon/Ganon fare vs the 4 better characters vs how those two do against Marth. You're saying it's not "uncomfortable" because it's even.

A few things about that:

I never gave my opinion on the matchup. Or, rather, I never tossed out a ratio. I didn't infer Marth was disadvantaged, on even footing, etc. So I'm not sure where you got, "I agree with you".

It also doesn't erase remarks about theory you've made, like the edgeguarding bit. Which are the things I care way more about.

You saying you understand what the matchup is like or you know "how bad it is" after throwing around goodies like that makes me cringe and not want to pay attention to you because it contradicts your assertion that you know what's up. This is similar to several other conversations I've had with you.

 

[Crooked Crow]

okay, so i'm terrible at paraphrasing.

not once did i even disagree with you, and yes it is even, and both can **** each other, i think marth has a slightly easier time. that is all.

i'm not trying to insinuate you're wrong, because you're not lol.

and yes, i was a complete scrub when we had those conversations. go figure.

 

[x After Dawn x]

it seems like you still are

the only reason i've seen you give to show reluctance to accept the fact that they are uncomfortable matchups is "Uncomfortable? Are you serious? Marth gets either of these characters off-stage, good game."

that's probably the worst argument ever considering marth also can't recover vs falcon after getting knee'd, uair strung, etc. i'd also argue marth has an even, if not, worse time trying to recover off the stage back into a favorable position against ganon than ganon does, considering ganon lives forever. and besides that, edgeguarding is still only one element of that matchup; how does marth get ganon off the stage more than ganon gets marth off the stage when you haven't specified why?

if anything, marth isn't the character you use to "exploit weaknesses" in ganon as you said. that lies far more in sheik and also fox and falco.

 

[Divinokage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thRST29Y9Fs, see look at the beginning.. damn Marth one mistake he's done, and also I've probably did the worst DI in my life in that match haha lol. Marth can get comboed exactly like so if he's not careful.

 

[Crooked Crow]

i live in edmonton lol clearly i'm good

i wasn't aware i even said anything in correspondence to what falcon/ganon can do?

they all **** each other. bye.

 

[Divinokage]

Run away little girl, run away...

 

[x After Dawn x]

i wasn't aware i even said anything in correspondence to what falcon/ganon can do?

they all **** each other. bye.

You didn't. That's the point.

Instead you pull the mindless insult the canadian card and leave? lol gg kid.

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

you guys bring up examples in a very selective way.

kage beat m2k in two friendlies... and then lost to mango's marth in tourney. i'm not trying to be a **** but like if your gonna bring up random friendlies as the basis for a matchup you have to offer the whole picture.

My issue with the comment was saying that marth had uncomfortable match ups with falcon and ganon. like i dont think these matcups are really very comparable. falcon marth is a debatable matchup highly stage dependent. i personally think its slightly in marths favour but i can see the argument for falcon. ganon marth is in marths favour.

2011, and peach still has a hard matchup vs marth.

i still dont think sheik does nearly as bad VS ice climbers as people say. since the beginning of time people have always said this and i've always disagreed. i'll just selectively pick a random example... rayku beat wobbles in tourney not long ago? clearly the matchup is in sheiks favour.

and i dont think puff counters sheik nearly as hard as people say. this matchup is just a lot different. you needa be super careful about the duck. and camp her out, space back airs.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Keep in mind that people used to think that Sheik countered Puff up until a couple years ago or so. I believe Plank even has (or had) a thread up in the Sheik forums and he explicitly stated that Sheik > Puff. Or maybe that was someone else, but point is that times have changed.

Sheik vs ICs is a very debatable matchup I believe. I've seen people argue it both ways; traditionally I believe it was seen as being in ICs favor, but I believe now people are seeing it as around evenish. I'm not really sure how that matchup goes but iirc it requires a lot of Nana splitting and needle use. And not getting grabbed, of course. I'm sure KK has more insight into that matchup than most of us here

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

i think most of this puff > sheik business came about from hungrybox's opinion and his one set with amsah.

i'm not saying it's not true because honestly i dont play against any good puff players but i think thats a lack of solid evidence.

i dunno i saw reno take hbox to last stock high percentage on dreamland at ROM3 so i know the matchup isnt impossible

 

[Archangel]

Okay, a few things about Youtube

1) You're using randoms vs other randoms, which is a poor argument.

s intended to any players actually named BK_McRoyale_55.

1) I haven't heard of them =/= They aren't good. I remember prior to Pound 5 or Apex "I never really heard of this Dr.PP Fellow is he really any good?"

2)I watch videos of players around the world. Especially Marth so I know the skill levels.

3) I used Players ranging from mediocre-good to demonstrate the match-up can be won by peach on multiple levels.

4) Though some aren't the greatest of Marths. if your calling.
Ice, Niko, Diakonos, Fullmetal, and .jpg randoms then...perhaps you should should broaden your horizons on Marths....not to mention the peach players you called randoms also?

2011, and peach still has a hard matchup vs marth.

i still dont think

you pretty much sum it up there.

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

you're an idiot.

 

[Archangel]

I'm an idiot.

yeah we get that.

you think Sheik>puff and Sheik>IC's

 

[Crooked Crow]

You didn't. That's the point.

Instead you pull the mindless insult the canadian card and leave? lol gg kid.

i'm canadian too you douchebag.

Run away little girl, run away...

hi

seems selective hearing is rampant here. jobus has good points

i said marth has an easier time specifically for those matchups for edgeguarding

not once

did i say: falcon/ganon had no tools, or that they couldn't do anything to marth. i just think marth puts more pressure on them than they do him. hence "uncomfortable" doesn't really paint an accurate picture. you mess up in -any- top level matchup you're getting *****. welcome to melee.

how is what i'm saying radical? marth gets them off stage, they are dead. this is true, but i never even elaborated beyond those points, your arguments are irrelevant.

it is even. they **** marth too, all the top and high tier characters **** each other. it's like rock paper scissors.



david and kage **** and i realized i handled things the wrong way. harsh critique is still critique, maybe i'll get better and improve because at least they responded.

sorry for the stir, and stuff lol

 

[Summonedfist]

i remember the days (which may stil lbe going on) when m2k believed 100% marth falcon was in falcon's favour lol, and he'd challenge any marth with his falcon to prove so

what marths in the world have really really good falcon experience? i remember back in the day when PC's pocket falcon beat m2k's marth, and strawhat dahean got wrecked by hax at pound 5, but we all know europe's lack of falcon experience

edit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thRST29Y9Fs, see look at the beginning.. damn Marth one mistake he's done, and also I've probably did the worst DI in my life in that match haha lol. Marth can get comboed exactly like so if he's not careful.

lol, more like 3: 2 horribly spaced dash attacks and a mistech =(

and:

1) You're using randoms vs other randoms, which is a poor argument.

2) You have like 1, maybe 2 notable Marth players in those videos but you have MacD, Connor (when he was still playing), DoH, etc. for your Peach players. You have Peach players that make bracket at large events and place well locally (sometimes even win) versus Marths that don't even win locals or break pools... which (to me) suggests there's a skill difference between the players.

hey the almighty weon-x 2-0'd DoH in pools with marth

 

[KirbyKaze]

1) I haven't heard of them =/= They aren't good. I remember prior to Pound 5 or Apex "I never really heard of this Dr.PP Fellow is he really any good?"

2)I watch videos of players around the world. Especially Marth so I know the skill levels.

3) I used Players ranging from mediocre-good to demonstrate the match-up can be won by peach on multiple levels.

4) Though some aren't the greatest of Marths. if your calling.
Ice, Niko, Diakonos, Fullmetal, and .jpg randoms then...perhaps you should should broaden your horizons on Marths....not to mention the peach players you called randoms also?

1) I try very hard to keep up with a lot of regions through AIM and through playing their people when I go to large tournaments (and a lot of discussion!). I do not want to insult anyone, but many of these Marth players are not ones that come up in conversation when people from whatever state discuss their better players (or even up & coming players). With a few exceptions. And obviously I don't communicate with Mexico (and co.) on the account of the language barrier (and partly because I haven't met Eddy, EX, and whoever).

2) I actually play(ed) a bunch of these people. I think I'm a bit more suitable for a skill judge, since playing in person >>>>> Youtube. At the time I played them a bunch of them weren't that good. Assuming life hasn't ***** my sense of time quite yet, some of these videos are from before I played them, or close to the time I played them. This makes me not value the matches that much.

3) This may actually be the best point you've made so far. Yet the tier list is supposed to reflect high level play so BK_McRoyale_55 and co. need not apply.

4) Or I could play some of them and draw my own conclusions? Sounds better than meatriding anyone that can SHFFL Fair dash away waveland Nair FF with Marth in a sexy yet ineffective way. Into Peach's dash attack. Many times.

 

[Archangel]

1) I try very hard to keep up with a lot of regions through AIM and through playing their people when I go to large tournaments (and a lot of discussion!). I do not want to insult anyone, but many of these Marth players are not ones that come up in conversation when people from whatever state discuss their better players (or even up & coming players). With a few exceptions. And obviously I don't communicate with Mexico (and co.) on the account of the language barrier (and partly because I haven't met Eddy, EX, and whoever).

2) I actually play(ed) a bunch of these people. I think I'm a bit more suitable for a skill judge, since playing in person >>>>> Youtube. At the time I played them a bunch of them weren't that good. Assuming life hasn't ***** my sense of time quite yet, some of these videos are from before I played them, or close to the time I played them. This makes me not value the matches that much.

3) This may actually be the best point you've made so far. Yet the tier list is supposed to reflect high level play so BK_McRoyale_55 and co. need not apply.

4) Or I could play some of them and draw my own conclusions? Sounds better than meatriding anyone that can SHFFL Fair dash away waveland Nair FF with Marth in a sexy yet ineffective way. Into Peach's dash attack. Many times.

1) your racist and you hate mexicans

2) I don't get around as much as you do(take that however you want) so I'll concede you may know more about some of them. However Sheik>Peach and especially Marths and since Sheik went threw a kinda dead phase as well most Marth's lack the experience to even deal with Sheik. So..i'm gonna ask the court to dismiss your judgement since you'd probably beat all of then or at least most of them on the count of being better or as good and using a better character.(watching law & order).

3) If the tier list is suppose to reflect the highest level and of play and Armada and M2K are the highest level of each character....then my original point still stands.

4)I guess but if your gonna play them all then you should learn to use Marth and Peach also...do to the reasons I stated in point #2. And **** YOU that fancy **** looks amazing