if the falcon knows how to dashdance and do a proper spacing, it's not going to be that funny anymore, sadly. The problem here is that you have to be super-cautious with your moves because he can literally **** you with a throw or a knee =(
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Guide Official Matchup Discussion
- Thread starter LiteralGrill
- Start date
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2007
- Messages
- 12,542
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- RPV, California
- NNID
- A2ZOMG
- Switch FC
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Yeah true, but like honestly who doesn't get ***** by Falcon's D-throw and Knee? As long as the stage isn't too huge, Falcon can get into a lot of trouble if you limit his space with those lingering hitboxes you have. And then once he's offstage, it's usually a stock.
Faithkeeper
Smash Lord
G&Ws utilt vs falco's dair? Trade? lose? win? What's the verdict? What about falco's nair, it has more range than fox's? ... *crosses fingers* puff's backair?
What tools does G&W have against marth's fair? (assuming the marth decides to approach)
What tools does G&W have against marth's fair? (assuming the marth decides to approach)
Cactuarz
Smash Ace
G&W's utilt beats... everything but you have to time it right, and falco's dair is so fast it's usually not worth it. I like to wavedash back jab > grab/dtilt when falco's approach, kind of like samus's wavedash back fsmash/dtilt.
marth approaching with fair (is not a good idea for marth really)
If he has you pressured near an edge and he fairs your sheild, lightsheild + sheild DI towards the edge so you fall onto the ledge, then instantly get up with fair/waveland grab while you still have invincibility from the edge.
retreating bair outranges about everything in the game, and if you can full hop it and they get stuck you can waveland out of it to follow up =)
Risky option is to doublejump and come down with a dair if you know they're going to SHFFL/SHDF soem fairs at you, but if they hit you out of it you... dont have your dobule jump.
if they're spacing it for tippers to hit, walk up > sheild grab works, also walk up to CC works at low %'s then you can punish them.
marth approaching with fair (is not a good idea for marth really)
If he has you pressured near an edge and he fairs your sheild, lightsheild + sheild DI towards the edge so you fall onto the ledge, then instantly get up with fair/waveland grab while you still have invincibility from the edge.
retreating bair outranges about everything in the game, and if you can full hop it and they get stuck you can waveland out of it to follow up =)
Risky option is to doublejump and come down with a dair if you know they're going to SHFFL/SHDF soem fairs at you, but if they hit you out of it you... dont have your dobule jump.
if they're spacing it for tippers to hit, walk up > sheild grab works, also walk up to CC works at low %'s then you can punish them.
Faithkeeper
Smash Lord
on that note, what is G&Ws cc game like? What percents can he do it? I assume dtilt and grab are his go to attacks...
Cactuarz
Smash Ace
his CC game is great... for the 20 or so % that you can still CC things haha. dtilt/grab/jab are his go to's, but if you expect somethign like a spotdodge fsmash works well, most of G&W's moves last forever and destroy people who spotdodge if you can read it =)
I suppose if you're daring you can hammer out of some CC situations lol
I suppose if you're daring you can hammer out of some CC situations lol
*P*L*U*R*
Smash Hero
*super situational/funny option if you're trapped in the air above marth*
Bucket outside of utilt's range then fast-fall a dair/fair-> follow up
Bucket outside of utilt's range then fast-fall a dair/fair-> follow up
Faithkeeper
Smash Lord
it slows air momentum then?
Cactuarz
Smash Ace
it slows air momentum... but it takes so long to put the bucket away marth can just utilt again... bucket to slow momentum is useful in stalling for the bucket though. You can't bucket brake like in brawl though (using it to stop momentum to keep from dieing, i've tried)
*P*L*U*R*
Smash Hero
It definitely depends on the situation. Like when you screw up an Amsah-tech and slide of the stage anyways, I believe you can bucket and it'll super slow down the momentum, possibly saving your life.
DualCats
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2009
- Messages
- 502
That's pretty interesting. I'm going to have to try that. o__O
I ruin Amsah-techs all the time
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
GAW Sheik is like 60-40 for Sheik.
GAW has options to combat her moves and chain grab doesn't work for her but it works for us :D
This assumes the Sheik jumps a lot with the intention of hitting you with actual moves. If they stay mostly grounded and only jump to try and needle grab or move away from you it's like 80-20. Sheik's so gay. D-throw combos are so stupid, why does her Uair do so much damage and why does her Fair send at such a dumb angle.
GAW has options to combat her moves and chain grab doesn't work for her but it works for us :D
This assumes the Sheik jumps a lot with the intention of hitting you with actual moves. If they stay mostly grounded and only jump to try and needle grab or move away from you it's like 80-20. Sheik's so gay. D-throw combos are so stupid, why does her Uair do so much damage and why does her Fair send at such a dumb angle.
*P*L*U*R*
Smash Hero
That was actually my opinion on the matchup lol. You can stuff like all of her aerials with a well-timed utilt/uair and just juggle or something from there. A grounded sheik is so much harder to punish so the objective just becomes getting sheik in the air.
Cactuarz
Smash Ace
sheik vs G&W 80-20 if they play smart/campy? sounds about right x.x ****ed campy sheiks. Not fun to play against at all. Thank GOD G&W has great combos
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Yeah, it's really nice you can like wait underneath her after you finish a combo with Nair or whatever and just U-tilt --> Nair again or something if they don't have their jump. GaW is pretty good about stealing jumps too. CG to F-smash is also pretty beastly :D
I'm really baffled with follows though. When Sheik DIs off a platform when I'm CGing her I really have no idea how to follow it. With normal characters I automatically run off Uair for that sort of thing, because Uair launches, and launching is fabulous. But GaW's Uair doesn't L-cancel and doesn't have enough stun to make up for it (stupid Ganon's Dair sometimes does).
What do you guys do? Should I just accept that I have to F-smash much earlier than I want to? What about sweetspot D-smash? Can that work at all?
D-tilt is so good. It makes me fee like GaW is a gay character. But then I like get hit and put on the defensive and I try to block pretty much anything that multi-hits or was aimed near my head or toes (depending on how I'm angling my shield) and then it pokes, or it might poke despite my efforts to aim my shield to block the move, and I'm like, "Oh yeah! I'm bad!" Or I'll try to crouch cancel and their move will push me too far away even though I'm not knocked over because GaW weighs like 0.3 lbs LOL.
What about Dair? I like it, but don't know when to use it. A lot of times I just do it because I'm on a platform and try to poke them through and edgecancel off afterwards, but what else? It seems okay for continuing combos. I think it could be useful for certain kinds of approaches and defending against approaches. I get so trigger-happy with it coming down, and I keep getting baited for it. Such nonsense LOL. I need to airdodge or just wait more LOL.
Soft Fair is weird. Does anyone use it on purpose onstage? I wound up using it a lot but I'm not sure if it's good. I was mostly just using it because it makes the move feel more like a sex kick and can bait certain CC behaviours but if I should be replacing these with strong Fair then I'll definitely contrive to do it LOL.
edit:
I think Up+B might have a place in juggles at really high percent on certain levels.
I'm really baffled with follows though. When Sheik DIs off a platform when I'm CGing her I really have no idea how to follow it. With normal characters I automatically run off Uair for that sort of thing, because Uair launches, and launching is fabulous. But GaW's Uair doesn't L-cancel and doesn't have enough stun to make up for it (stupid Ganon's Dair sometimes does).
What do you guys do? Should I just accept that I have to F-smash much earlier than I want to? What about sweetspot D-smash? Can that work at all?
D-tilt is so good. It makes me fee like GaW is a gay character. But then I like get hit and put on the defensive and I try to block pretty much anything that multi-hits or was aimed near my head or toes (depending on how I'm angling my shield) and then it pokes, or it might poke despite my efforts to aim my shield to block the move, and I'm like, "Oh yeah! I'm bad!" Or I'll try to crouch cancel and their move will push me too far away even though I'm not knocked over because GaW weighs like 0.3 lbs LOL.
What about Dair? I like it, but don't know when to use it. A lot of times I just do it because I'm on a platform and try to poke them through and edgecancel off afterwards, but what else? It seems okay for continuing combos. I think it could be useful for certain kinds of approaches and defending against approaches. I get so trigger-happy with it coming down, and I keep getting baited for it. Such nonsense LOL. I need to airdodge or just wait more LOL.
Soft Fair is weird. Does anyone use it on purpose onstage? I wound up using it a lot but I'm not sure if it's good. I was mostly just using it because it makes the move feel more like a sex kick and can bait certain CC behaviours but if I should be replacing these with strong Fair then I'll definitely contrive to do it LOL.
edit:
I think Up+B might have a place in juggles at really high percent on certain levels.
QERB
Banned via Warnings
F-Smash can definitely be a good option. Tbh i'm not sure whether you can sweetspot the d-smash after a d-throw, but even if you could the d-smash isn't really a good tool for comboing, although getting the "launch" effect is definitely nice (:
However, on platforms I like to try to land an aerial after the d-throw if sheik DI's off the platform. An f-air at mid %s (I wanna say from around 20%-40% ish) can often lead to another f-air especially if sheik "survival di's" it. The only problem with this is a lot of the time she drops too low before you can get there in time with a f-air. In that case, you could either f-smash like you said, or you can follow with a shd-air.
The d-air at lower percentages can lead to f-air/n-air since it kinda pops sheik 'up and away. At higher %s this probably isnt the best idea though since it's knockback is meh. But as far as tech chasing goes, if you hit ANYONE with the innermost portion of the key (basically be in them with d-air goes off (they have to be standing, not in the air)) it knockes them directly upwards, with lots and lots of hit-stun, which you would follow by a f-air/n-air. This is probably the best tech chase you can do, but it's not the easiest to get. It's probably best used as an edge guard imo. Force sheik to up-b on to stage, while she's in her masssive up-b lag, you have plenty of time to land that sweetspot d-air and go directly into an n-air ftw.
Or instead of doing all that, you can fall through the platform and try to catch sheik with a falling f-air of some sort or just drop down and reset, but that's boring. Only good thing about is that you'd have positioning advantage for little bit. I guess.
LOL there is so much truth here it's funny. Yea cc'ing sheik....especially her f-air, is such fail. I always try it even though I know it's gonna be fail.
A move i definitely like against sheik tho is jab. Then again, I'm pretty much addicted to gw's jab, i think it's amazing. But against sheik I definitely think it's good. When sheik goes for a grab or a dash attack, for example, the jab can negate them if you react properly, and then instead of her getting a grab/start dash attack combos, you get a jab grab or at LEAST jab d-tilt.
Also I think wd out of shield jab is good against sheik's that are 'retreating f-air happy' since you can catch her on the way down from her f-air (occasionally)
hmmmmmmmmm i usually only use soft f-air (purposely) for edge-guarding, since you can soft f-air > predict jump strong f-air, or if they DI towards stage you can get another aerial in at certain %'s, etc.
But on stage I haven't really seen a purpose to use it. I agree that you can bait ppl to CC and such, but even if they do, by the time the landing lag is done from the aerial g&w can't exactly punish in time, especially since you'd be spacing the soft f-air.
I definitely like going for the strong f-air ASAP against sheik especially at low low low %'s because it leads to so much awesome nonsense. But yeah, easier said than done
Also, has anyone been able to the "tomahawk" technique with GW successfully? I feel like everytime I try it I just get aerial'd before I can land. It's annoying because characters like puff can use it so effectively. I find that an empty sh > jab works pretty well at least. Any thoughts?
DualCats
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2009
- Messages
- 502
Behold, I bring glorious findings.
Peach's d-smash is an ******* but it can be marginally out-spaced by both G&W's jab and d-tilt. Likewise, d-smash is out-spaced by f-smash/f-tilt and the spacing is lest strict, albeit you cannot combo out of it.
Additionally, Peach's d-smash can be punished with G&W's d-smash. Although d-smash doesn't have the range to out-space it, Peach's hitbox extends farther horizontally during her d-smash, which includes lag after the all the hitboxes as the move completes. With truly sexy spacing, Peach's d-smash can be baited and you can kill her off the top with a d-smash without getting touched. This can kill earlier than f-smash on stages with low ceilings (especially assuming you're facing towards the stage such that a horizontal kill would be difficult) and moreover will kill at levels of damage at with Peach can DI up-throw > nair/fair. Additionally, up-throw > fair might have the aforementioned dilemma with horizontal killing. An uncharged d-smash with G&W will kill Peach in the low-80s on Pokemon Stadium (without DI). Even with excellent DI, G&W's d-smash can be a formidable killing move on a stage such as that.
In conclusion, G&W's d-smash is underrated and you should all learn to tech chase with it on platforms because it can also combo into stuff (especially on fast-fallers).
Peach's d-smash is an ******* but it can be marginally out-spaced by both G&W's jab and d-tilt. Likewise, d-smash is out-spaced by f-smash/f-tilt and the spacing is lest strict, albeit you cannot combo out of it.
Additionally, Peach's d-smash can be punished with G&W's d-smash. Although d-smash doesn't have the range to out-space it, Peach's hitbox extends farther horizontally during her d-smash, which includes lag after the all the hitboxes as the move completes. With truly sexy spacing, Peach's d-smash can be baited and you can kill her off the top with a d-smash without getting touched. This can kill earlier than f-smash on stages with low ceilings (especially assuming you're facing towards the stage such that a horizontal kill would be difficult) and moreover will kill at levels of damage at with Peach can DI up-throw > nair/fair. Additionally, up-throw > fair might have the aforementioned dilemma with horizontal killing. An uncharged d-smash with G&W will kill Peach in the low-80s on Pokemon Stadium (without DI). Even with excellent DI, G&W's d-smash can be a formidable killing move on a stage such as that.
In conclusion, G&W's d-smash is underrated and you should all learn to tech chase with it on platforms because it can also combo into stuff (especially on fast-fallers).
Walt
Smash Ace
What causes the good hitbox on dsmash verse the crappy one that does nothing? I do use dsmash often but I'm not ever sure if it's going to launch them or hit like a jab.
*P*L*U*R*
Smash Hero
Is it just me or is the Peach matchup with GaW not as difficult as any of his other high tier matchups?
Sraigux
Smash Journeyman
Umbrella ***** her from below
Cactuarz
Smash Ace
falcon is easy mode but peach is pretty close. Even though some people hate it
Sraigux
Smash Journeyman
Techchase+ Dthrow>Knee = GAW nightmare. Falcon is only easy to attack
Walt
Smash Ace
The only timed I fought a peach as G&W he assumed I was going to crouch a lot and get eaten by dsmash, so I just baited it and out spaced it with fair the whole game. Obviously this was not against a good player.
QERB
Banned via Warnings
Sounds good. I'mma get to updating this thing. Def need input though =P
EDIT: wooo addded pictures, still have tons and tons of ideas to add to this. Please guys look over this, question anything I have put up, we got this ****.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I feel Fox and Falco are really gay.
QERB
Banned via Warnings
I feel fox is gayer than falco, but both are quite the homosexuals.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think they're about equally dick-loving at this point.
The fact that Fox's d-throw tech chase is a legitimate concern is really problematic because it allows him to "combo" you off throw even if you can SDI the uair, so he still has a KO throw. He's also good at gimping you (shine is too good, Fox has good ledgestalls, bair is kind of strong, and getting up > u-smash KOs G&W at such silly percents) so teching to the edge or being thrown offstage or hit offstage isn't really a good alternative.
His movement camping is also ******** powerful and I feel that he preys super hard on G&W's need to strong hit fair in order for it to be useful (weak fairs are horrible).
With all that said, though, I think Falco is about as hard. Mostly because dair > dair ***** G&W and might as well be a chain grab. And I swear everything shield stabs after like 2 lasers (lightshielding is alright but he's fast enough to chase with grabs or whatever if he adjusts and doesn't do mindless Falco stuff). And I think he generally has approaches that are harder to defend against because his gun really cuts down G&W's good wavedash back, and similar defensive options. It's obviously difficult to run offense against Falco because, well, he's Falco.
edit:
I think Peach is one of G&W's best matchups amongst the top 8 characters. ICs and Peach seem the easiest so far. Ice Climbers can actually be trolled by aerials and stuff. We kill Nana well and if we can land a d-tilt, our nair / bair can probably split them (admittedly not as well as a Fox shine or something but it can suffice sometimes). Peach can similarly be trolled and it really just boils down to spacing. IMHO it's a lot harder if she plays a more grounded style and runs away the whole time because, honestly, our range isn't that good at the end of the day and we don't have a solid, easily manipulated, variable hitbox that comes out fast like a Pikachu nair or Falco dair.
I want to experiment with bair in the Peach matchup, though, because it feels like it would be good against her by not having the weakness of fair's weak hit. I'm really frustrated with her right now, though, because I feel our linearity allows a runaway style to be really good against us. We absolutely have to hit strong fairs always or we can be CC punished in some way and that lets even just minor retreats by her (or even her moving forward unexpectedly) suddenly become issues.
On the bright side, if she tries to fair camp or anything that involves jumping a lot, though, we **** her.
The fact that Fox's d-throw tech chase is a legitimate concern is really problematic because it allows him to "combo" you off throw even if you can SDI the uair, so he still has a KO throw. He's also good at gimping you (shine is too good, Fox has good ledgestalls, bair is kind of strong, and getting up > u-smash KOs G&W at such silly percents) so teching to the edge or being thrown offstage or hit offstage isn't really a good alternative.
His movement camping is also ******** powerful and I feel that he preys super hard on G&W's need to strong hit fair in order for it to be useful (weak fairs are horrible).
With all that said, though, I think Falco is about as hard. Mostly because dair > dair ***** G&W and might as well be a chain grab. And I swear everything shield stabs after like 2 lasers (lightshielding is alright but he's fast enough to chase with grabs or whatever if he adjusts and doesn't do mindless Falco stuff). And I think he generally has approaches that are harder to defend against because his gun really cuts down G&W's good wavedash back, and similar defensive options. It's obviously difficult to run offense against Falco because, well, he's Falco.
edit:
I think Peach is one of G&W's best matchups amongst the top 8 characters. ICs and Peach seem the easiest so far. Ice Climbers can actually be trolled by aerials and stuff. We kill Nana well and if we can land a d-tilt, our nair / bair can probably split them (admittedly not as well as a Fox shine or something but it can suffice sometimes). Peach can similarly be trolled and it really just boils down to spacing. IMHO it's a lot harder if she plays a more grounded style and runs away the whole time because, honestly, our range isn't that good at the end of the day and we don't have a solid, easily manipulated, variable hitbox that comes out fast like a Pikachu nair or Falco dair.
I want to experiment with bair in the Peach matchup, though, because it feels like it would be good against her by not having the weakness of fair's weak hit. I'm really frustrated with her right now, though, because I feel our linearity allows a runaway style to be really good against us. We absolutely have to hit strong fairs always or we can be CC punished in some way and that lets even just minor retreats by her (or even her moving forward unexpectedly) suddenly become issues.
On the bright side, if she tries to fair camp or anything that involves jumping a lot, though, we **** her.
Cactuarz
Smash Ace
wobbles, enough said
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If Peach runs away 80%+ of the game then it is not 50/50 I assure you.
G&W's approach is too linear and obvious. His moves are also slow. He doesn't have Marth's combo game or reduced lag. In exchange he has a KO combo from throw at like 105% or so. Which is awesome, but it's not enough to keep pace with everything else.
What does Peach really do when she runs away from you? She can throw slow *** turnips which are easy to dodge. Her approach is just as linear as Game and Watch's is.
It's 50/50.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
When she throws those turnips, she is zoning you. You aren't usually meant to be hit by them. They're there to provoke a reaction that she can either punish or gain positional advantage from. This is actually problematic because G&W's shield is crappy and his moves are in really obvious locations (and they're slow).
For this reason her approach is nowhere near as linear as G&W's. G&W doesn't have a projectile to prod the opponent to see what sort of attack might work. When you add her high-quality mixup game, the offensive disparity is kind of
When Peach runs away, she makes G&W move forward. Since G&W only functions well by having perfect spacing at all times (because he's laggy), this is bad. Moving forward a lot at a time is bad. And not moving forward gives her time to set up her zoning, which is similarly bad.
For this reason her approach is nowhere near as linear as G&W's. G&W doesn't have a projectile to prod the opponent to see what sort of attack might work. When you add her high-quality mixup game, the offensive disparity is kind of
When Peach runs away, she makes G&W move forward. Since G&W only functions well by having perfect spacing at all times (because he's laggy), this is bad. Moving forward a lot at a time is bad. And not moving forward gives her time to set up her zoning, which is similarly bad.