LiteralGrill
Smokin' Hot~
Game and Match(up)!
Welcome to the new and improved Game and Watch matchup discussion thread!
Currently we have information on Fox, Falco, Marth, and Jigglypuff. More will be coming in the near future!
Thanks for your patience, hope to have this completely updated as soon as possible!
If you have any specific matchup information you would like to contribute, please post it in this thread. I'd love to have others help write matchups they best understand.
[collapse=Update Log]
2/18/2014: Added Pichu and Kirby matchups!
2/1/2014: This may seem insignificant, but I got the thread organized, pretty, and ready to start putting data in. I got QERB's writeups back up here, haven't gotten to put in some cool video example stuff yet but it's coming. I hope to start placing in information about all the other matchups soon!
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Bowser:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: +2]
Coming Soon...
Captain Falcon:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: -2]
Coming Soon...
Doctor. Mario:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: -1]
Coming Soon...
Donkey Kong:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: -1]
Coming Soon...
Falco:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: -2]
(Thanks To QERB For His Writeup.)
Suggested counterpicks: Brinstar, FoD, Kongo Jungle, YS
**Note about FD: Definitely ban this stage against any legit falco. What I mean by legit is: Any falco that knows how to space lasers correctly. Breaking a nicely-spaced falco approach on this stage is pretty rough. BUT, if you question the falco’s laser-game or DI, this stage could be a complete turn-around. G&W cg’s falco real well on this stage, and the list of up-throw combo possibilities goes on and on. I’ve even cp’d this against falcos before.
AHHH this matchup. Falco raaapes G&W all day. Or does he?
Out of any matchup I’ve ever played with any character, I’ve played this matchup the most, and to me I think it’s pretty even, as long as there’s some sort of stage striking/banning involved when playing, as opposed to just choosing random.
Both characters combo the hell out of each other. Falco’s combos are pretty automatic, whereas G&W’s require a decent amount tech chasing and prediction. Because of this, striking Battlefield is definitely a good choice because the platforms set up falco’s combos like none other, and he can recover on to the side platforms which makes him harder to edge-guard.
The question that people will always ask about this matchup is, how do you get past falco’s lasers? Simple: Crouch, wavedash, jump, powershield. Well, not that simple. Let’s start with what NOT to do:
1. Bucket- When falco approaches you with lasers and you have the bucket out, you will be frozen until the post lag of your last “filling of the bucket” ends. That’s A LOT of lag. Basically what this means is, don’t bucket unless you’re 100% sure that falco won’t be able to reach you after inhaling his laser. The only time this happens is on random stage changes on PS and maybe Rainbow Cruise. And after all, is it really worth it? Chances are you’re gonna miss anyways
2. Spot-dodge (sidestep dodge)- don’t do it, too much lag.
3. Sit there and crouch- no need to explain
Now here’s what you should do / keep in mind:
1. Falco loves space. He can create space pretty easily. All he has to do retreat-laser and now he has space, and you’re being lasered. What do you do? First of all, you ban FD. Next you use gw’s short crouch and his short wave-dashing to your advantage. Yes, falco can scrape his lasers low enough to the ground so that he can pin you with them. But I don’t care how ‘techy’ this falco is, the majority of his lasers won’t hit you while in the crouched position.
But as I stated before, don’t stay in the crouched position. Wave-dash forward and back trying to approach falco. But don’t get too close otherwise falco will start pillaring your shield (or lack thereof). This can be difficult at times if the falco’s movement is unpredictable, which at times will be (So basically the spacing that you are looking for is: Not too far, not too close. You wanna be just spaced enough to hook falco’s shield with f-air, and maybe jab him out of his shield when you predict him to jump out, which will lead to a grab or d-tilt which leads to all of G&W’s nonsense). This is why you need to use the stages platforms to your advantage (that’s why you ban FD). In most matchups, being above the other character is usually a disadvantage. In this matchup however, it isn’t always necessarily the case. This is because G&W can use d-airs and d-tilts on the platforms which have more priority than all of falco’s aerials when timed correctly (which isn’t that difficult to time/place). Use this to your advantaged when falco is being gay with lasers.
When you are above falco on the platforms, he’ll most likely either try to full jump laser you from the other side, or he'll try to b-air you from underneath the platform.
If he full jump lasers you from the other side, you can now return back to the lower level and you’ll now have the advantage. OR you can go to the top platform and try to d-air him from above, though I recommend the first option. However, if you choose the latter option, use the d-air full jump autocancel to your advantage (the Mr. Phenom D-air). Most falcos will go for shield-grab, shine-out-of-shield, or d-air out of shield after being full jump d-aired. If they do this, you can simply jump out of the d-air and then (insert aerial here) the falco after he falls for it.
If he decides to try to b-air you from the ground while you’re on the platforms, use your priority to your advantage. Think about it, before you couldn’t hit him because his lasers kept pegging you. But now that you’re above him he cannot laser you, so now you have priority in terms of attack. Now all you have to worry about is timing. When you expect the b-air coming (or whatever other aerial falco may choose to do), trip him with a d-tilt. Make sure you don’t do this too late though, you want the d-tilt to be out before falco even begins his b-air. That means, d-tilt before falco even jumps. Though if you do it too early, it can be punished, so be careful. Other ways to guard against his b-airs is…YOUR b-air lol. True story, your b-air > his, in terms of priority. Also I would recommend the d-air over this, you can short hop it or full jump depending on the stage and level of platforms to have it intercept falco’s b-airs. It really works.
When you get to the point where you are at the spacing you want to be at (explained earlier), you want to shield pressure falco with spaced f-air, d-tilts and jabs. G&W’s jab also works wonders against falco. It pressures his shield, it’s hitbox reaches behind G&W, which is great because if you aerial falco’s shield and end up in front of him, you can just jab right when falco thinks he can shield grab you or aerial/shine you out of his shield, and it will catch him. After you catch him with a jab, grab him, d-tilt him, or start shield pressure again.
More on this matchup to come…………..
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Fox:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: -3]
(Thanks To QERB For His Writeup)
Suggested counterpicks: Brinstar, FoD, Dream Land
Easily one of G&W’s most difficult matchups. A fox that knows what he’s doing will camp you with lasers and dash dance around, until you approach him, then he’ll punish your approach. You have to play very defensively because Fox can punish nearly every one of G&W’s approaches out of a dash-dance: f-air, d-air, n-air, all of his tilts (YES, he even can punish G&W’s d-tilt, even if they’re nicely “spaced,” which sucks). So unless you’re predicting the fox to approach you, your last option for an approach is using G&W’s jab, which is surprisingly a very, VERY good jab, especially for this matchup. Once you hook fox with a jab, it can lead to a d-tilt or a grab, which we all know will set up for nearly everything G&W has to offer. So the best way to approach fox (if you HAVE to approach him, which is often the case) is to literally wavedash/dash-dance around until you get him with a jab, then work from there, this is especially true for large stages where fox has a lot of room to dash dance away from you (i.e. Dream Land / FD).
If you don’t have to approach Fox, meaning, if you have less % (same # of stock) or more stock than Fox, by all means, do not approach. We have to play as gay as possible, but it’s ok to play gay cuz we’re playing G&W which means no johns whatsoever for the Fox player
Fighting an approaching Fox is WAY easier than us approaching him. When you expect fox to approach with an n-air, u-tilt will always rip through it, but this can be difficult to execute because of fox’s quickness and the u-tilts pretty long pre-lag. Other options are: wavedashing back to d-tilt or dash dance to grab after fox misses an n-air. Spacing f-airs against an approaching fox also works well, but IF you miss, be ready to get him with a jab very quickly, because Foxes that know this matchup will always try to punish G&W’s missed aerials with a grab or n-air.If you grab fox…
then that’s awesome. Now what do you do? Well, it of course depends on your location and stage.
@FD: You can up-throw CG fox starting at 0% 4-5 times before he can shine you out of it which is quite easy to perform since there are no platforms interfering (this is the recommended option if you are near the center of FD). After this CG, you have a few options: You can u-throw --> judgement hammer (or any other aerial), or you can start d-throw cg’ing which works until around 55%. If you grab Fox near the edge (and this goes for ANY stage), throwing them towards the edge is always a good idea. If they survival DI it, you can f-air them EVERY time, which leads to an easy edgeguard. A Fox that sees and recognizes this will tend to DI away from out of the f-air range. However this will force him to up-b towards the stage, making it a fairly easy edgeguard. I use this pretty much every time I have the opportunity to.
@BF/YS/FoD: U-throw CG’ing gets harder on these stages, because fox will probably look to DI onto a platform to stop you from CG’ing or combo-ing out of your U-throw. But hey that’s not necessarily a bad thing, now you just gotta read and chase fox’s tech. N-air is a great choice against a fox at high %’s, because it covers nearly the entire platform which makes it a pretty safe tech-chase choice. At lower %’s, you can either wave-land onto the platform and regrab, read his tech --> judgement hammer, read his tech --> u-air (my favorite because of how fast the u-air comes out and because you can n-air right out of the u-air at low %s, oh, and I did it to mango’s fox heheh), or of course d-air/f-air/n-air if you wanna play it safe and just get a hit in. D-throw CG works on these stages as well.
@DL/PS: Pretty much a combination of FD & the other stages. You can up-throw CG fox in the middle of the stages where there aren’t any platforms, but on the sides the platforms will get in your way, so be ready to chase some techs when you’re on the sides.
Note: Remember, when fox u-throws you into platform, G&W is the only character that can tech it as soon as he is level with the platform (rather than waiting until he comes in contact with a surface). This will most likely stop a fox from being able to u-throw to u-air you on stages like YS, FoD, BF, etc. It’s a difficult tech to master, but even getting it a few times will save your ***. My favorite thing to do when you DO get this tech is to d-tilt immediately after teching. The fox will most likely go immediately for the u-air as fox players are programmed to do, and the d-tilt will almost always trip them before their u-air connects. If you’re playing a fox who waits for this and then u-airs you……..well then that blows. *I hope to get a video of this tech up soon.
Edge-guarding Fox:
There’s so many different ways to edge-guard a fox, yet there’s no guaranteed way to get it every time. There so many different situations that can happen. Let’s start with how foxes usually like to recover. From my experiences, foxes that are up-b’ing looooove to go straight for the edge. C’mon am I right lol? They love that ****. So all you have to do to edge-guard this (if you’re expecting) is to throw an f-tilt or d-tilt right over the edge. BUT, DON’T MAKE IT OBVIOUS. A lot of the time I’ll see G&W’s be crouching over the edge for about 3-4 seconds before the fox is about to up-b. If you’re crouching and waiting there for that long, OF COURSE THE FOX ISN’T GONNA UP-B THERE ANYMORE, and now you’re screwed. Hope that made sense. Basically what I’m saying is. Don’t make it obvious as to how you’re going to edge-guard him, cuz fox players will observe what you’re doing and THEN choose the direction of their up-b. If you can f-air/n-air/pan-spike them before they can leave the “burning-part” of the up-b, by all means, do it. Otherwise, it’s probably best to go for the f-tilt/d-tilt over the edge, a full jumped N-air if you think the fox is gonna up-b/forward b straight ahead, or an edge-hopped n-air if you have time to grab the edge by the time the fox starts recovering.
Another edge-guard that I love to go for against fox is using the weak-fair --> strong f-air. All it requires is predicting when fox will use his jump (if he has one) during his recovery. If you can time/read this well, you can just throw your f-air out until he jumps into it (the f-air lasts pretty dam long). Once you scrape him with the f-air, wait for him to start up-b’ing again. Once he does, bang, f-air again (or D-air if you want). Boom, roasted.
Note: another good thing about using the d-tilt as an edge-guard is: Even if you miss the d-tilt and the fox does NOT up-b/forward-b to the edge, you have time to chase his recovery with another edge guarding attack since the d-tilt’s lag is so short. Good stuff.
Recovering Against Fox:
Once a Fox knocks you off the stage, whether it be from a b-air, shine, etc, a lot of the time they will look to shine your recovery to gimp you/finish you off. Make sure if you see this coming you use G&W’s high-priority aerials to your advantages. I would say just go f-air at the edge if you think he’s gonna come shine you, but if you go for the f-air and the fox waits…he’s gonna shine you immediately afterwards and then you’re dead. One of my favorite ways to stop this is to float under the edge, then jump and use your u-air which has ridiculous priority and will stop a shine-happy fox. And of course always sweet-spot the edge or fox can just d-smash or u-smash. If you think a fox is going to wd / moonwalk / jump / whatever on to the edge to try to edge hog you, up-b early and trip them with it before they get the edge, it’s not that difficult to do. And once you do it, guess who’s edge-guarding now? O yea. This works against a lot of characters.
If you’re recovering from above, use your d-air as a fox u-air shield since it has nice priority. But don’t do it too early or fox will simply wait and then punish during it’s lag.
Some details about the matchup:
Yes, Fox's tech chases hurt. But don't forget: you can tech chase him back. Own his get-up options. If you manage to get him on the ground, jab him (thunders) to grab or just land a strong hit. Get him off the stage and edgeguard with dtilt, fsmash, fair, nair. You can combo him as well as he can combo you..
G&W can chaingrab Fox and Falco with d-throw from around 55% until they DI off the stage. Then you just fsmash. It works.
Against Foxes, you cannot approach him well; you have to wait for an opening while slowing down his pace by either throwing bacons or spacing really well. This means that you have to play defensively, or you will get knocked off easily. Stay off the platforms if there are any on the stage you are playing on against fox since fox can easily u-air you from under.
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Game and Watch:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: It Had Better Be 0...]
Coming Soon...
(THE DITTO!)
Ganondorf:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: -2]
Coming Soon...
Ice Climbers:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: -1]
Coming Soon...
Jigglypuff:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: -2]
(Thanks To QERB For His Writeup)
Suggested stages to strike / Ban: FoD, Dream Land
Suggested counterpicks: PS, YS, BF
A lot of Puff mains I've noticed feel a bit uneasy about this matchup, and I believe they have reason to (shoutouts to Mr. F). Although this matchup is definitely scary for both sides, since puff has a variety of ways to land a rest on G&W.
How the matchup normally plays out: From my experience, most of this matchup consists of puff spacing b-airs against G&W spacing F-airs. In this situation, I would say puff has a slight advantage because of his air mobility, but it is still certainly a fair fight. As G&W, you have to fight very meticulously, because one unspaced aerial will lead to a world of pain. This includes getting rested OOS and U-tilt -> rest (which works on G&W at almost any percent if you don't CC it which most like you won't be able to) being the most notable. However, the advantage that G&W has over puff is that he is fast enough on the ground to control the stage after getting puff above him to attempt to keep her there, whereas puff cannot do this as easily, since our d-air poses a threat to a puff that is underneath us, making it more difficult for puff to stage control G&W. Generally speaking though, a good way to play against puff is not limit her space by constantly pressuring with f-air and grab if you lock/scare her into shielding. D-Throw -> N-air works up to surprisingly high %'s, and is usually my main source of killing puff. Also, picking a smaller stage definitely helps by limiting puff's space and killing her more quickly.
Tips: In the case that you get rested, ACCEPT YOUR FATE and DI down. You want to die off the side of the stage because you have a plethora of super hard punishing moves, and trying to survive a rest being at any % over 8ish just is not worth a shot (unless it's your last stock ofc). Depending on what stage you're on and puff's %, here are some ways to punish a rest while she's dozin.
These are approximate %'s idk exact stuff:
(0%-25%): d-air to grab, d-throw to aerial. try to get her above you if possible
(0%-25%): if you're FEELING LUCKY: walk her towards the edge of the stage and get a 9. I choose this option much more than i probably should. But have a decent success rate.
(25-40%): Use the meteor-d-air (the key-spike) -> N-air. Usually almost kills puff. When using the key-spike on the ground, it provides much more hit-lag to puff which gives you plenty of time to follow-up with n-air. Be careful she is sleeping right underneath a platform, in that case you may want to simply charge an f-smash to get her off stage in case she techs platform to escape your followup. Wouldn't recommend judgement hammer at this %.
(40-95%): If she's near the center of stage, charge up-smash, if near edge, charge f-smash. Basic.
(95%-999%): D-tilt -> taunt 3 times. lol.
DON'T GET UP-TILTED: A puff who knows this matchup will know how effective u-tilt is on g&w. He's at the perfect weight to combo this into a rest at essentially any percentage. Puff's u-tilt IS punishable, but don't rush it. A majority of the time, puff will have her back turned to spamming b-air, and will mix this up with occasional u-tilt's to catch you off guard. Don't you ever slip up.
*NOTE*: Puff-s u-tilt will shield stab you almost EVERY time. Even if you are light-shielding. So never rely on your shield to absorb an u-tilt, because it will most likely not happen. If you find yourself with your shield up about to get get u-tilted, i recommend up-b'ing out of your shield to get yourself out of this situation.
How to space against Puff: The perfect spacing against puff is to get into your MAXIMUM JAB-RANGE:
By getting into this range, you WILL win this exchange. Puff has trouble dealing with G&W at this range, since G&W can punish her at every option:
If she shields:
1. Jab->Grab (d-throw to n-air/f-air) -> control stage
2. Jab->(wait for jab to end)->jab again (if she remains in shield or repeat) -> grab -> control stage
(if she doesnt shield) -> d-tilt -> control stage
If she does not shield:
Jab-> D-tilt -> control stage
If she shield rolls in front of you: dash forward ->shf-air
If she shield rolls behind you: dash back -> grab or shd-air
**Don't take any of these too strictly, play it by ear of course. Occasional spacing of F-SMASH on a puff's shield is also recommended, as it is pretty safe and puff's very frequently jump oos for a b-air/etc, and also kills puff at low %.**
How not to get rested OOS: Space all of your aerials, don't miss L-cancels, NEVER dash attack unless you are getting a guaranteed hit. If she shields your dash-attack you are a goner, land your techs or you will get jab-reset rested. That's pretty much it.
How to stage control Puff: Get her above you. Throw or D-tilt will do this for you. After this, do your best to keep her there. Puff will have the advantage at ground level face to face, but she literally has no option to come DOWN on you. Use up-air. It is free damage on puff that she has no answer to, and continues to keep her in a good position for you. Her aerial movement is very quick, so you need be very mobile on the ground and predicting where she will float to. Punishing with n-air is also good, but just know that can air-dodge or float away and regain proper positioning if you are to miss. That's why I will use u-air as much as I can before attempting a potentially-missing n-air. Don't get greedy!
How to recover against Puff: G&W deals very well with typical puff edge-guarding, in my experience. G&W usually takes fairly long to make it back to up-b range to recover on to the stage, giving puff ample time to get positioning to edge-guard. Most puffs will attempt to b-air or f-air you when you are at a certain height, however G&W can deal with this. When the puff is nearly about to aerial you, you simply fast-fall and throw out an f-air. This will most likely hit puff with the weak part of the f-air and put you in sweet-spot range to grab the edge. It may sound difficult, but it is actually quite easy to react to. After this, there is a possibility that puff will try to aerial you against the stage in attempt to stage spike. To deal with this, you have to up-b puff directly underneath her to avoid her aerial-hitbox. If you miss this and do get hit against the stage (if it's not BF), tech off the side and up-b IMMEDIATELY. This will more than likely free you from any further harm. If you don't up-b immediately, Puff can continue edge-guarding easily and finish you off with d-smash or edge-hog, so do it.
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Kirby:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: +2]
Now that you have the general info down, let's get into specifics. To start, remember Kirby doesn't have any sort of range. Your Fair beats Kirby's Bair and Fair which is going to be a big part of Kirby's approach. If they try to keep to the ground, your D-tilt can beat their F-Tilt and D-Tilt as well. If they come from above your U-Tilt beats their Dair. Just be careful because Kirby can easily bait your U-Tilt by simply jumping again and then punish you for it, so be observant. Kirby might try to use his hammer in the air as well as it's one of the very few moves that can get G&W and packs a wallop, so watch out for it. Congratualtions you pretty much just eliminated the entirety of any semi-decent move Kirby has but you aren't out of the woods yet.
If you want to win the matchup you are going to have to play defensively, if you go on the offensive you are playing into the few strengths Kirby has. Play it slow, Kirby has no way to get you and you already know this, so just react to what they try and punish hard. A good Kirby is going to try to stay JUST out of your range and try to tempt you to go in and attack, just DON'T DO IT. Have patience because if they catch you whiffing a move you will see their mighty Up-Tilt.
In the world of throws when you if and when you land one now is now the time to Down Throw > Judge. Just don't do it, you already hold a huge advantage over Kirby and don't need to take the risk, and since a good Nair can hit them and even kill them sometimes it is the better option.
In terms of edgeguarding you have it really easy. If you can get them to the point where they must use their Up B to return they are already dead: F-Tilt and watch how it gloriously rips through their recovery. Kirby doesn't have much for mobility but don't be stupid and underestimate the multiple jumps. Kirby can seriously drop down to the point where you can't see him on FD AND STILL MAKE IT BACK. Do not be stupid and go out crazy far on the chase, be patient and if you see Kirby is going to make it back throw out a well placed Fair or Nair and just finish the job.
Now don't just think Kirby had nothing on you, Kirby still has a few advantages here. You have a very predictable recovery, they will use this against you. If you're coming above the stage they may go for a Swallow which in that prime position is likely to end in your death via Kirbycide except if they're good enough they will manage to jump out of it and you wont even manage the benefit of them losing a stock. Beward of their toes sending you to your doom as well, they can time a well placed DSmash and you will find yourself flying. They also can cling to the edge in such a way to force you to overshoot the edge and eat a Bair. So remain unpredictable as possible while recovering and really watch what you do.
There are a few little things you have to know if you're fighting a good Kirby. Kirby does have lots of tiny little tricks and nuances that if you aren't prepared for you could easily be dieing and any Kirby player worth their salt will know them if they want any chance to win.
You can actually break free in the middle of a Back Throw or Forward Throw. Be ready for this as the Kirby player will probably be throwing out a Bair to catch you, use your Fair and be victorious. If for some reason you catch them in stone form don't waste your time attacking as it doesn't do damage, remember however that you can grab them out of being a stone and get your damage comboing from there.
The biggest thing you need to know about are Kirbycides and the Swallow. If for some reason Kirby is up a stock expect them to go for the Kirbycide. There are 4 ways to do this including Forward Throw, Back Throw, Up Throw, and Swallow.
For Forward and Back Throw they'll be trying to make it so that when the move brings you to the side slightly you'll go over the stage instead and plummet to the ground, Remember if you do manage to somehow be caught by this that you can break out of the throw. Beware this especially if you are both down to on stock as this Kirbycide kills you before Kirby meaning that if they do this and you both only had one stock left, they'll win.
Up Throw works basically the same way except it has a different set of advantages and disadvantages. If they Up Throw for Kirbycide, there is no way you can escape the throw. However this Kirbyside makes them die first meaning it can't be used in the final stock scenario.
Finally you have the Swallowcide. Remember that you can mash out of Swallow, but also remember not to mash like a moron. If the opponent sees you mashing like an idiot, they'll spit you out over the edge and you can enjoy falling to your death because you air dodged. It sounds funny, but be careful which buttons you mash. Furthermore if they do get you down far enough and you mash out remember that it will send you downwards and Kirby upwards. This makes it hard for you to recover so be smart. Last, if you do break free before they get you off the stage, prepare for them to F-Tilt or even rapid jab and use moves accordingly.
Finally, if some some odd reason they decide to try and use the projectile part of their Up Special to try and hit you while they are firmly on the stage, feel free to use Oil Panic. Their lag is so long that you can easily catch it and still be safe if they are doing this from a distance. Most Kirby players are smarter then to try to use Final Cutter for projectile spacing, but watch for it anyways.
Stages:
Normally I would always suggest you take a stage with platforms as G&W, but FD can really be a huge boon to this particular matchup. Since your attacks really make just about anything Kirby does useless it's sometimes better to not let him have any platforms to work with forcing him to come straight at you. More then likely if they are smart they'll ban FD so what are your other options? You also still have your standard FoD which still works wonders in this matchup like it always does for G&W. Dreamland 64 also is a good choice and it feels good to beat a Kirby on its home stage.
Take caution with Yoshi's Story however. It may be tempting but Kirby really doesn't have kill moves so don't give him the opportunity to go to the one stage where they can kill you faster when most other choices are good for you or at least don't hurt you anyways. This should be their CP of choice, so just ban it.
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Link:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: -1]
Coming Soon...
Luigi:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: -1]
Coming Soon...
Mario:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: -1]
Coming Soon...
Marth:
[collapse=Matchup Rating: -3]
(Thanks To QERB For His Writup)
Suggested stages to strike / Ban: YS, DL, BF / Pokemon Stadium
Suggested counterpicks: FD, FoD
**Notes about stages: I don't necesarily think that striking certain stages gives either character a lot more of an upper edge in the matchup. I typically like to auto-strike YS just cuz it's marth... on ys AKA you get gimped with a tipper ez. Other than this, I'd say the other strikes are more up to preference, I usually like to strike DL because you can't d-air marth through the platforms, as you can on say FoD or something. Also he lives to higher percents on DL (as do you ofc), which makes it hard to say... N-air him out of a d-throw. I don't like my marth's to get out of combo %, it can get annoying to finish a marth >130-140% ish.
I don't think this matchup is as bad as people will make it seem. It seems that Marth can just chain every aerial he has together and gimp g&w at very low %'s. But with proper DI and knowing some trix, this matchup is definitely a doable one.
Tips:
One of the most annoying parts of this matchup (for me, at least) is the fact that a properly place u-tilt by marth will go through your d-air. With nearly any other char, pressuring them with a d-air on their dome is a legitimate option. So to deal with this, you need to bait marth into either u-tilting early, or chasing you with an aerial. If you can do this, you will most likely be able to punish it with a d-air on his head. This is important because both G&W and Marth beast each other when the other is above them. So if you are able to do this, it will help you regain better positioning (not above marth T_T).
DI: I see time and time again G&W's getting f-aired 5-6 times in a row at low-mid %'s, UGH. Don't let this happen to you! While it is true that Marth's f-air is a viable KO move against g&w at higher percents (stage dependent ofc), that doesn't mean you should be "survival DI'ing" them at 40-50%!!!!! DI away from any non tippered-F-Smashes or D-air Spikes, and this won't happen to you! Sure he'll get maybe 2 f-airs in a row on you, but after that you should be able to airdodge/space an f-air and get back into a solid position.
DI'ing his grabs is a little different though O:
I wish I had exact %'s for you guys to help you DI his grabs, but here's a pretty basic overlay. At mid %'s, if you DI Marth's f-throw away, you'll put yourself into f-smash tipper range. That is definitely NOT what we want! At this % you will 99% of the time rather DI into the throw and either get weak-fsmashed or f-aired (which you now can DI out of due to extensive Marth DI knowledge xD), which is much better. The same holds trues for DI'ing Marth's D-throw, the %'s as to if you want to DI to or away from changes slightly, but it doesn't take too much getting used to =P
Well spaced f-airs is the key to fighting Marth. It can get repetitive after a while, but chances are the marth will be doing the same thing. It's much easier to punish the marth's missed attacks than to approach on your own (as it normally is vs most chars). At low %s I like to follow an f-air with... MOAR F-AIRS. but also getting the marth above you is a very solid strategy as well. If you can predict a marth's double jump and land an n-air it's the easiest way to gimp a marth IMO.
Another cool tip that i'm SURE most marths don't know about (unless they're reading this =/ ) is that gw's DASH-ATTACK goes through like ALL of MARTH'S ****. The most notable attack that it "clanks" with is marth's f-smash. The first thing you have to do is see the f-smash coming. Marths usually have general behaviors when trying to land a tipped f-smash. for example... you're sitting in your shield and they start WALKING behind you, waiting to get to that tip range. hmmm i wonder what he's gonna do -.- There are other behaviors as well, like them waiting for you to jump out your shield, or pivot f-smash. But anyways, if you are able to predict one of these you can counter it by dash-attacking at them, then immediately jab to a grab, or jab to d-tilt, whichever is better for the situation. I will be you that 99% of the time you "clank" your dash-attack with a marth f-smash, you will be more ready to punish then they will, since you'll know it's coming and they will probably be surprised/not expecting it. Also a habit a lot of marths have is to immediately f-smash after the previous one has just clanked, so of course you gotta give em dat jab since it comes out like LIGHTNING. But anyways, I'm glad gw's dash-attack has such ridiculous priority because it kinda/sorta (well, not really) makes up for his piece of **** shield =D
Edge-guarding Marf: I have a few strats I usually do to edgeguard marths. I haven't had much input from others from this, so please tell me your ways to edge-guard marth or if you have anything to add to mine =P
*note* Using the d-air to edge-guard marth will either trade hits with marth (which is usually something you want) or it will go through his up-b (if you're able to place it on top of his head). The same thing holds true for gw's n-air, but this is more difficult to land because a marth will insta up-b as soon as he sees you starting to n-air, since the n-air has a little bit of windup. Although it is still a legitimate edgeguard option (will discuss later)
The main goal I try to accomplish to edge-guard Marth is to not let him get the edge. And it isn't the most difficult task.
If marth is recovering from above the edge, the best way to edgeguard him would be to fastfall an n-air under him, or meet him with an f-air. I tend to use the n-air more because if a marth predicts an f-air coming he up-b immediately and turn things around, no fun. By using the n-air, if the marth decides to up-b into your N-air, well, peace marth lol.
If marth is recovering from below the edge... This is where it gets tricky.
The best way to edge-guard in this situation, also happens to be the hardest to pull of. Basically, to do this, you want to force marth to use his up-b to land on stage, instead of letting him get the edge, using your invincibility frames/Death to marth shield maneuver (or w/e its' called). I tend to not use that shield maneuver against Marth cuz if gw's shield was previously pressured too much, or even a little bit, you dont wanna risk marth's up-b shield-poking you, cuz that sux. Anyways, if you ARE able to force him on stage, then here's the best way to punish:
After he lands on stage from the up-b (or air-dodge, w/e) you wanna d-air him using the meteor part of the d-air to pop him straight upwards (much like c. falcon's d-air on someone who is on the ground). this will pop Marth straight up with a huuuge lag and allow you to finish him with an easy n-air (assuming he's at mid-high%s). If somehow you got him off the stage at lower %s, good job, and you can followup the d-air with a u-air, n-air, or n-air, nair.....more n-airz, kthx.
Bad edge-guarding options (Don't do it!)
~Pan-spiking Marth, nah. don't do it. he just presses up-b and then he edgeguards you and you die.
~D-tilt. Normally a good edge-guarding move, but ny solid marth will be able to sweespot and thus your d-tilt will miss and then he will f-air you from the edge, or his up-b will just straightup hit you and not trade with your d-tilt, and you will be mad D=
~F-Smash, the only time I can see this being used would be to force marth on stage with up-b, then wave land f-smash him, but that is inferior to the meteor d-air to n-air combo mentioned previously.
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Mewtwo:
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Ness:
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Peach:
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Pichu:
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If anyone says that seriously slap them in the face. If you face a strong Pichu players and don't know the matchup you will get WRECKED. Don't be scared though, you have a good advantage in this matchup, you have range, Pichu has NONE. If you play smart it will be hard for Pichu to get anywhere near you. Plus there's the whole thing where Pichu likes to hurt itself (kinky little bugger) that doesn't hurt you any either. And to top it all off you get to fight a character lighter then you that has a lot of hitstun, G&W can use his combos to the max!
Pichu does however have a good air game and is small and incredibly fast. If Pichu does manage to grab you you will face it's rather good grab game (you'll get chaingrabbed) and if you're off the stage you possibly face one of the strongest edge-guarding characters in the entire game.
You gotta keep your eyes open. Pichu can and will be moving around like a psychopath to throw you off and has tools to do so. Still you have huge disjointed hitboxes that Pichu has no serious way of getting through, Fair and Nair baby. Not to mention if they try to come at you from the ground or from their insanely short short hop you can hit them with a jab and enjoy smacking them around from there. Just be smart and play defensive, Pichu's only real way to get to you is to punish a laggy attack or a mistake you make, so don't give him the opportunity. Let him come to you and punish as they wont really be able to force you to approach with their pathetic self damaging Thunder Jolts.
Pichu is going to probably be trying to get you with a grab and get you off the stage. This may sound strange considering how low tier Pichu is, but he has one of the best edge-guarding games in the game. Being so close to the ground gives several opportunities to stop many recoveries INCLUDING YOUR SWEETSPOTTED ONE. Yeah it sucks a LOT. Watch out specifically for F-Smash, F-Tilt (angled), and Dair (seriously Pichu's head goes through the stage with a well timed Dair). Be careful recovering too high as Pichu's lightning fast Jab can hit you off the stage and to your death. Expect a few annoying Thunder Jolts as well as they try to disrupt your recovery.
And to make the offstage game less fun for you Pichu also has a great recovery. The best you can do (which isn't too bad) is to just predict where Pichu will be going and toss out your enormous Nair hoping to smack him back off stage.
Here's some fun stuff to watch out for against Pichu. D-Tilt has a hitbox close enough to the ground that it can sometimes shield poke your pathetic shield by hitting your feet. You can DI out of Pichu's F-Smash to avoid it's sweetspot hitbox (the one that does tons of knockback and can kill) learn this properly and you can punish Pichu for even using it.
Stages:
Pichu has a great platform game, you have a great platform game. Darn... However there are still a few things to think about.
FD can be a good choice if you're trying to give Pichu no option but to come at you. However FD also gives Pichu's special techniques involving their Thunder Jolt so decide whether or not you want the risk/reward here. Other then that you don't get a huge advantage on any stage vs Pichu ,so go where you are comfortable.
Ban Stadium. Seriously, a Pichu can get you against the wall and infinite you to death if they are good enough, why take the risk?
(P.S. I thought I remembered that G&W can chaingrab Pichu as well, but since my wife misplaced my Melee disk when she did some cleaning and I've yet to find it I can't test it to be sure, if anyone wants to help do that so I can make this complete that would be awesome.)
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Pikachu:
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Roy:
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Samus:
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Shiek:
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Yoshi:
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Young Link:
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Zelda:
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