Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

[Dooms]

tater, zap jump. Our Dair may be able to go through his PK thunder, but his pk thunder can stop us from getting near him if we're close enough. Also, they can zap jump to safety and pk thunder from not below the stage. I think that Phoenix was talking about HIS dthrow -> utilt, it can be di'd even at low percents iIrc.

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

I think that Phoenix was talking about HIS dthrow -> utilt, it can be di'd even at low percents iIrc.

It's true. I was. But I think it is guaranteed now lol. I know it isn't for some characters, but apparently Kirby can't get out. Weird.

And yeah, dair really hurts. If the Lucas doesn't SDI it, then it creates a lot of pain.

 

[Kewkky]

It's true. I was. But I think it is guaranteed now lol. I know it isn't for some characters, but apparently Kirby can't get out. Weird.

No wonder. D:

Probably his spaceyness.

And yeah, dair really hurts. If the Lucas doesn't SDI it, then it creates a lot of pain.

A single dair poke from Kirby will send you plummeting to your doom, no amount of SDI will save you. Huzzah!

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

A single dair poke from Kirby will send you plummeting to your doom, no amount of SDI will save you. Huzzah!

Dair poke or Dair gimp/spike.

I guarantee you I can SDI out of Dair and not get spiked by it.

 

[Ladybug]

It's true. He only gets gimped by stages or Marth... On Halberd

Thanks for coming in here. And for working with Shuz to try and figure stuff out.

 

[Berserker.]

Off-stage Lucas

55:45 Kirby

Oh, about Ike... I think it's a 60:40 (Reply towards A2) and the Kirby boards agreed that it was 60:40 Kirby

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

Thanks for coming in here. And for working with Shuz to try and figure stuff out.

It's all good. I wish I had more to say, though. Hopefully I'll have more input after Dphat's smashfest tonight.

and SHHH, quiet you!

 

[TaterSalad0811]

So... what's going to happen in the thread now?... It's been like, 3 days since anyone's posted anything.

And it doesn't seem like much has changed in Brawl's gameplay, so do we really need to keep doing these matchups?

 

[Kewkky]

So... what's going to happen in the thread now?... It's been like, 3 days since anyone's posted anything.

And it doesn't seem like much has changed in Brawl's gameplay, so do we really need to keep doing these matchups?

3 days = Pound4 weekend. Even Viper went apparently, he had a match against my friend MPD (MPD won). I didn't know he went, I would've loved to meet him.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

So I guess we wait for A1lion835 to come back and move the thread along then?

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I passed by Kewkky and Viper like a million times and never remembered to meet you guys. Oh well. The tournament was baller.

 

[Kewkky]

I didn't even know Viper was there until I got to the hotel tonight, when MPD told me that they played and that Viper lost... I wouldnt've minded meeting him, I met a lot of people at the tourney.

 

[A1lion835]

I'll start running this again if there's really no one who wants to (including jiovanni). I can be motivated, but my natural laziness usually wins. I can start doing this again if jiovanni wants me to...although...this thread was created last June, maybe it's time for a new one?

 

[Kewkky]

I'll start running this again if there's really no one who wants to (including jiovanni). I can be motivated, but my natural laziness usually wins. I can start doing this again if jiovanni wants me to...although...this thread was created last June, maybe it's time for a new one?

Meh, I don't really see the point of recreating MU discussions... But then again, that's just me. It's better for the newer players to use our discussions to know what to do, but the best knowledge comes from good experience, and from good experience comes good theory. People would eventually learn how to deal against the 'unwinnable MUs', and obviously our discussions help... But is it really better than paying attention to your mistakes and recognizing your own patterns with/without videos?

I dunno, that's just me thinking out loud. I hope that next MU discussions are all about explaining characters and less about debating ratios. We already have a rough idea about how Kirby's MUs are like, so we don;t have to listen to other people's opinions on trying to change the numbers against us.

 

[A1lion835]

I really don't know how important matchup discussions and ratios are anymore. Maybe that's another factor indicating I shouldn't run this.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Well, matchup discussions are an essential part of smash, though for the sake of tourney-level play, we should at least keep up-to-date matchups mostly on characters A-tier and higher, with a few exceptions. They seem to be the center of the smash scene, so giving up matchups entirely would do no help to anyone (except maybe your sanity, in which case, you can have someone else run the discussion).

 

[Kewkky]

If we're to continue MU discussions, let's talk more about the top/high tiers before moving onto mid/low tiers, and start with the characters you have to mix up more than the easy ones (utilt lock then bairing Fox is waaay easier than remembering to 'bait and punish'). If someone requests for a lower-tier'd character, then we do that character and leave the rest for later. We should also change out MU discussions to 'exports' since they're easier to find, and have all of the info regarding how to play those characters.

 

[jiovanni007]

I like ur idea kewkky, I say we start from the top down with exports giving about 3-4 days per character.

 

[Kewkky]

I like ur idea kewkky, I say we start from the top down with exports giving about 3-4 days per character.

I don't know when we should start though. We could start at any time cuz what we want is to have the "How to fight your opponents" part of the discussions instead of "What's the ratio?", which is what MU discussions should've been in the first place but somehow got derailed into ratio discussions.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Ratios are full of lol. They really aren't very helpful at all at high level play. My friend lost to my Samus with his DDD, and was raging because the matchup percentage is apparently 90:10 or something (I don't really know), and I'm just like... lol, you've never played against a competent Samus ever, and you don't know the chaingrab, how do you expect an arbitrary percentage value to help you win?

 

[A1lion835]

Well, matchup discussions are an essential part of smash, though for the sake of tourney-level play, we should at least keep up-to-date matchups mostly on characters A-tier and higher, with a few exceptions. They seem to be the center of the smash scene, so giving up matchups entirely would do no help to anyone (except maybe your sanity, in which case, you can have someone else run the discussion).

When I said I didn't know how important they were anymore, I meant that after my two (3, but the third wasn't really a huge part of the series) blogs on AiB about matchups (this is the first), I still didn't know how important discussions were or how they should be discussed.

Jiovanni, who should run this? You, me, or someone else?

I think I can actually make it work this time, and I also have some other ideas about how to summarize it. If you want to do it too though, I don't know what's gonna happen though.

If I do this again, I'm not sure the exports are such a good idea because they'd clog up the forum with threads that'd never be used again.

Not only that, but Kirby's metagame hasn't really changed, so the discussions would probably be like "hey guys kirby's the same hows your character kthxbai."

 

[TaterSalad0811]

When I said I didn't know how important they were anymore, I meant that after my two (3, but the third wasn't really a huge part of the series) blogs on AiB about matchups (this is the first), I still didn't know how important discussions were or how they should be discussed.

Jiovanni, who should run this? You, me, or someone else?

I think I can actually make it work this time, and I also have some other ideas about how to summarize it. If you want to do it too though, I don't know what's gonna happen though.

If I do this again, I'm not sure the exports are such a good idea because they'd clog up the forum with threads that'd never be used again.

Not only that, but Kirby's metagame hasn't really changed, so the discussions would probably be like "hey guys kirby's the same hows your character kthxbai."

That's kinda what i'm saying, but from time to time we ought to at least dig up and rediscuss a few of the more important matchups.

 

[*JuriHan*]

I got plenty of offline matches of Kirby vs Lucas here now in perfect quality:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=75EF8329C990C436

 

[DAML]

umm u guys have no pit?

well imo the match up it 50-50 or 55-45 pit's favour but i really REALLY think its 50-50

both pit and kirby can counter themselves with lots of things
kirby is small so its pretty hard to hit him sometimes,kirby can kill pit easily and can even gimp him but the same thing goes for pit,he can gimp kirby on stage by using his arrows or he can go and gimp kirby with his strong aerials that can kill kirby(epecially bair) and if the kirby players uses his ub b pit can reflect it and kill kirby(like mario's cape) thing that its pretty easy to do if the pit player is good,OH and lets not forget that if kirby is below pit near the edge while using his upb pit can use his dtilt to spike him
the good thing about kirby is that he has priority against pit's aerials if he uses his bair or fair
if u would like to discuss about this more contact me on aib(current username: Smooth Criminal DAML) because im not active here
see ya!

 

[DAML]

oh sorry for posting this on the lucas match up thread LOL >.<

 

[Kewkky]

oh sorry for posting this on the lucas match up thread LOL >.<

Don't worry, DAML, this thread is for all MU discussions. We're planning on changing that eventually, though, it's too hard to locate the posts our way.

And we're holding off the Pit discussion to whenever jiovanni decides on changing the LUCAS MU Discussion thing to whatever other character.

In fact, I think we're holding off the MU discussions for a while since we all got bored/have stuff to do (I got college and my laptop broke a while ago, so I got limited online time).

 

[DAML]

oh i see :O

 

[Berserker.]

It was 55:45 Pit :/

Are we done with the Lucas discussion yet?

 

[Kewkky]

It was 55:45 Pit :/

Are we done with the Lucas discussion yet?

We've been done since forever.

Wonder where jiovanni is, anyway... Wasn't it agreed that the OP chooses who the next character's supposed to be?

 

[DarkDefeater]

Could we discuss Samus? No, not ZSS, but power suit samus.

I recently was overwhelmed by a good Samus. Grapple beams, missiles, and power shots galore.

Now, since then, I've read about relying on powershielding, and using the drill kick against her screw attack.

Any other advice?

 

[Akaku94]

As far as this topic goes, the OP hasn't posted in a while... let's just move on in this topic or start a new one... I nominate Samus for next discussion...

 

[Kewkky]

Could we discuss Samus? No, not ZSS, but power suit samus.

I recently was overwhelmed by a good Samus. Grapple beams, missiles, and power shots galore.

Now, since then, I've read about relying on powershielding, and using the drill kick against her screw attack.

Any other advice?

Yep, you got it right. Just rush her down and shield her predictable missiles/zair/dair. Their hitboxes should be coming out at the same moment, no matter which one he chooses to do (since we're small, he'll start his attacks while near the ground). Once you get close, grab her, put her in the air, and take it from there. Her downB won't save her from anything since it's not like Melee which explodes when you touch the bombs (godly), so no fear and just juggle her. Don't attack the shield head-on, or you'll eat a grounded upB! Try and do grabs all you can, she can't punish those.

 

[kirbyfan66]

So, we're talking Samus? Alright.

I'd say this matchup isn't too hard, but it can be if you don't know what you're doing (which can be said for virtually any matchup =P). Spamus has some good projectiles, but it's nothing that being in the air can't stop. Some good approaches are the Fair and Bair, and if you're above her the Dair works nicely, as well.

Best grabs are Fthrow and Dthrow, moreso Dthrow. Once she's off the stage at around 70-80%+, she's toast. Fair, Bair, Aerial Hammer, Drill Kick, and maybe a copied laser will send her away. The tether recovery is the only thing that really shows concern.

I'd go on, but I don't really have the time. I won't say anything about a matchup rating but I'd say it's in Kirby's favor.

 

[Jinxkatrina8]

Samus? Hmm... I don't have a whole lot of experience with this MU, but I'm pretty sure I have enough to say that it really isn't that hard if you're careful. Samus has issues killing, she can be easy to punish, and she's just not all that good overall...

One of Samus's most important strengths is obv projectiles, and Kirby usually doesn't have that hard of a time dealing with projectiles. TBH Kirby outdoes Samus in the air, and pretty much on the ground as well. I'd say 60:40, if not 65:35...

 

[Berserker.]

Samus?

Sure Samus would do.

 

[Kewkky]

Samus?

Sure Samus would do.

I have learned something new against Samus. I shall try it next time I fight her. With this knowledge, the MU will be 110:-10 in our favor.



/sarcasm

Spoiler

only replied this cuz I came in thinking someone asked a question or did a synopsis on Samus, but all I saw was "sure samus will do".

 

[giuocob]

Most people who main Samus do so because they love projectile camping. Keep this in mind going into this matchup. Once you get close to her, there's not much she can do to you. Z-air and N-air are both annoying (I'm pretty sure they both outrange B-air), and her U-air is pretty good too (it can put up a good fight against drill kick), so this might be one of those few matchups where U-air juggling is actually a good idea. Some Samuss (at least the one I most commonly play with) like to spam D-special when coming down so they don't get juggled, but F-air or B-air should pretty easily take care of that. If you want to be flashy, you can try to greet a whiffed Z-air with a hammer. On the ground, she can't do jack to you; just go in with RAR B-air mixed up with grabs, and keep pounding on her with U-air and B-air until she's off the stage, then it's pretty much over. If you're at a high percent, I would approach with D-air more, since a well timed charge shot is always a threat you can't lose sight of. Don't let her get away from you, or she'll run off into a corner and start firing projectiles. If she does get away, all you really have to do is jump up and over her projectile stream to get back. Don't get too creative with roll/spotdodge approaches from a distance; Samus players are often pretty good at predicting that sort of thing and will quickly greet you with a charge shot to the face.

Overall strategy: Don't give her any breathing room. Get in close, rack up damage as quickly as you can, then KO her or knock her off stage for a relatively easy gimp.

IMO, 60/40 Kriby

 

[Kewkky]

What people should do in this MU is just shield while approaching Samus. Only thing she has to answer that is her laggy grab and risky upB's. Once you get close enough (or get her while she's in some vulnerable position, like after a missed grab or missed upB), knock her into the air and rack up damage all you can. Only thing she can do reliably is airdodge through your attacks, or downB away from you (which you shouldn't be scared of, just follow her and bair her).

Once she's projectile camping on the ledge (or near the ledge), wait for her to let go, grab the ledge immediately (or fsmash her while you're on-stage, careful cuz she might uair/upB/fair you... Not too bad, but it's still damage), and hit her with a ledgedropped bair (or react appropriately). Samus has trouble killing, whereas we don't. Her slow fall speed makes her susceptible to well-timed fsmashes, where we aim to hit her while she lands (frametrapping her, hitting her in her landing frames thanks to our long-lasting hitbox,before she even has a chance to put up her shield)... Or we could dsmash her, or gimp her with a dair>footstool and edgehog if she camps the ledge, or bair her until she's forced to downB from far away to recover then dair her...


I'm beginning to think 60:40 Kirby is too generous, but I won't push any numbers unless a couple of people agree with me. We have a very good Samus mainer here in PR (Negi), and I also used to main Samus before Kirby/ZSS (and a bit after, tried picking her up again before I started playing melee again, then I dropped her completely), so I know a few things.

 

[kirbyfan66]

I recently played a very good Samus while I was tired and hungry, and still came out on top.

If we could copy off the Mario boards and say something like 58:42, I'd go with that,

 

[Kewkky]

Umm, let's keep it at XZ:YZ ratios... Making the ratios even more complicated than that is kinda embarrassing, considering in every other fighting game community they keep it as simple as X:Y, and not XZ:YZ (they= 7:3... us= 65:35).