Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

[phi1ny3]

K, I have a video of it, but it's on a marth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7IZSNqfZNI#t=1m05s

Trust me, it's doable, but Bowser wants to do as much guaranteed damage as possible, so unless he has guaranteed Grab and air release CGs on a character, he'll usually end it with klaw to be safe (jab is sometimes pressed on accident).

Marth air release -> spike's another story loool. That thing's humanly impossible because you have to be literally frame perfect, and you need to release them at the right spot.

 

[Kewkky]

Seems like one of those "too hard to be of use in MU discussions" things... If there's a large margin of error, and the ex-best Bowser (or still is?) couldn't manage to pull it off on easier characters (considering Kirby DID get lucky and is very hard to regrab), it shouldn't be put up for discussion.

: |

 

[phi1ny3]

It shouldn't be because Bowser can't force ground release on Kirby, at least from that thread he can't.

 

[Kewkky]

Well, at least now I know why grab release > regrab is barely (if never) ever used in matches, so 'knowledge for knowledge's sake'. : \

Bowser is still one of our easiest MUs. : |

 

[Vex Kasrani]

1:55

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF1N8kX9vKg

And that can be done to kirby

 

[Kewkky]

I might be undermining it with this comment, but...


... Kirby's an aerial type of character, and Sonic's a ground-type of character. He's easier to get a grab on, what Bowser can do to us is Klaw, and maybe a couple of tilts... Plus, seems like a lot of work for only around 30%, and we can also mash out and air release if we know the timing.

 

[phi1ny3]

Wai- so they don't have to be mashing to force a ground release?

 

[Kewkky]

Wai- so they don't have to be mashing to force a ground release?

I think this was discussed somewhere before, but when Bowser is pummeling an opponent, the opponent will ground release regardless of size. BUT! There is a way of air releasing while Bowser is pummeling... You have to mash in between pummels, when Bowser stops his pummeling and is about to do the next one. It forces an air release.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I think this was discussed somewhere before, but when Bowser is pummeling an opponent, the opponent will ground release regardless of size. BUT! There is a way of air releasing while Bowser is pummeling... You have to mash in between pummels, when Bowser stops his pummeling and is about to do the next one. It forces an air release.

This is somewhat correct, alittle bit under detailed but you get the picture. Bowser's pummel is just a tad to slow and CANNOT force Ground Releases on any character UNLESS the opponent doesn't know the specific timing, which very few people actually do except most of the Bowser's.

The only difference between Kirby and Sonic when it comes to forcing releases is Kirby can be Jump Released no matter what as long as Bowser doesn't pummel, while Sonic if I choose not to pummel he can either Ground Release or Jump Release.

Hope this clears up a few things, Grab Releasing specifics isn't very well known, and hence it's not common knowledge, so very few players actually fully understand Grab Releasing.

 

[Paladin77]

thanks so much for ther matchup info guys

i read the nake debrief and the luigi posts. Kewkky, thanks for being the main contrubutor to luigi

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ So are we continuing the Bowser discussion or something else? ☆

 

[Kewkky]

thanks so much for ther matchup info guys

i read the nake debrief and the luigi posts. Kewkky, thanks for being the main contrubutor to luigi

No problem, man. Always glad to help fellow Kirby mains! ... Just don't expect me to critique any videos.

☆ So are we continuing the Bowser discussion or something else? ☆

i wonder when jiovanni will come around. We've been done with this for a while. I don't even know what was the ratio we established... I think it was 65:35 our favor what we ended up agreeing indirectly.

Als, I hate christmas and summer vacations. There's freaking nothing to do ever, and it sucks beyond reality.

 

[Guilhe]

Ike boards is currently revising the Kirby matchup, all Kirby players are invited to join us. But first, please refer to the main matchup thread for information on our procedures and informative threads over Ike.

Main matchup thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238648

Kirby matchup discussion thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=259853

 

[Lord Viper]

Als, I hate christmas and summer vacations. There's freaking nothing to do ever, and it sucks beyond reality.

☆ That would depend on the situation on the vacations. Anyways, I guess we are done with Bowser just about now. ☆

 

[Berserker.]

You guys should discuss Lucas, Jigglypuff or PT

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Lucas plox. Way more common in my area than Jigglypuff and PT, and I have a feeling that PT is guaranteed to be a long, tedious discussion with no conclusive ending.

 

[Berserker.]

Yeah, Lucas should be the next discussion

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Lucas already done Kirby so there won't be much to talk. The match up should be around 55-45 Kirby or even, some Kirby mains say Lucas is a little easier to deal with than Ness, I'm not sure I find Ness more easier than Lucas right now, but that's just me. ☆

 

[jiovanni007]

Next up to be discussed is...Lucas!!!

Seems right. i don't necessarily like using only the discussion from other boards since Kirby mains may not debate it as much over there. I'll alert the Lucas boards.

 

[Chuee]

Its 50-50 even.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I hope someone does a nifty writeup of this matchup. I have a bad habit of getting hit by fully charged Usmashes x_x

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ I might make one, I nearly always fight different Lucas anyways. ☆

 

[lil cj]

Since this MU was discussed in our board already I'll say other additional things about this MU.
I use Kirby too
-Both Kirby and Lucas have powerful smashes, but Lucas can kill Kirby earlier than he can kill him.
-Bair is pretty good against us
-We have more range than Kirby.
-We can force yall to approach, final cutter will heal us.
-We can survive a kirbycides better than others...say that were extremely low below the stage Zap Jump will get us high enough to still recover safely.
-Your air game is better than ours, more priority!
-Our ground game is slightly better, except are grab game sucks :/...yall win that!

55-45 Kirby

 

[Asdioh]

I'd say it's about 55-45 Kirby as well, but I don't have much Lucas experience. I do play Lucas though, and he's hella fun.

His grab sucks, his dashgrab sucks, but his pivot grab has far less lag, so don't get baited by that.
He's harder to gimp than ness because of his tether, zap jump, magnet stallling (Ness can do that too) and his PK thunderbolt thing isn't solid.
His Fsmash is AMAZING so watch out.
Try to not spotdodge much because downsmash can punish that, and upsmash maybe as well.
Ummm..he can do Dthrow->uptilt like we can (except actually guaranteed) if we're at about 0%, so don't get grabbed at 0 I guess.

I always forget which throws he uses for KOing and what percents those are good at, as well as what the trajectory is...hopefully someone can tell me. I think it's like Downthrow and backthrow, but I could be wrong :/

Watch out for jabs, ftilt, and uptilt on the ground. His dtilt is fast and has decent range, but it's only useful if it trips us (which can be very bad for our health) because otherwise we can just hit him out of it.
He can also Dair->fsmash, at least sometimes I guess.
His Bair is a spike, and a sexy one. Watch out for it.
His Uair is a great KO move, so watch out for that too.

Not too sure how the matchup is actually played. Lucas will try to space with PK Fire, Kirby will try to approach with his lack of approach options and get a grab or something to knock Lucas into the air. Lucas' Nair has essentially no landing lag so be careful.

ehh need moar Lucas players to tell me if I'm right or wrong, goodnight

 

[lil cj]

I'd say it's about 55-45 Kirby as well, but I don't have much Lucas experience. I do play Lucas though, and he's hella fun.

His grab sucks, his dashgrab sucks, but his pivot grab has far less lag, so don't get baited by that.
He's harder to gimp than ness because of his tether, zap jump, magnet stallling (Ness can do that too) and his PK thunderbolt thing isn't solid.
His Fsmash is AMAZING so watch out.
Try to not spotdodge much because downsmash can punish that, and upsmash maybe as well.
Ummm..he can do Dthrow->uptilt like we can (except actually guaranteed) if we're at about 0%, so don't get grabbed at 0 I guess.

I always forget which throws he uses for KOing and what percents those are good at, as well as what the trajectory is...hopefully someone can tell me. I think it's like Downthrow and backthrow, but I could be wrong :/

Watch out for jabs, ftilt, and uptilt on the ground. His dtilt is fast and has decent range, but it's only useful if it trips us (which can be very bad for our health) because otherwise we can just hit him out of it.
He can also Dair->fsmash, at least sometimes I guess.
His Bair is a spike, and a sexy one. Watch out for it.
His Uair is a great KO move, so watch out for that too.

Not too sure how the matchup is actually played. Lucas will try to space with PK Fire, Kirby will try to approach with his lack of approach options and get a grab or something to knock Lucas into the air. Lucas' Nair has essentially no landing lag so be careful.

ehh need moar Lucas players to tell me if I'm right or wrong, goodnight

Upsmash can also punish airdodges too, its hitbox is HUGE!

Your right about the throws that we use to KO, we can also KO with upthrow too but rarely.
Down will KO at about 130-145 depending on weight
Upthrow kills at 10-15 % more damage than downthrow
Backthrow is about 120-125, better if its by the edge

Utilt is usually used after a nair or dair combo
For the dair to fsmash KO we use dtilt after dair which can lock and build up more damage then we finish off with fsmash
Uair is pretty good if its fresh

This wasnt mentioned but Lucas has a pretty good ledge game too.
He can ledge whip the stage with PKT. He can also use a rising fair when coming back up from the ledge, watch out for that its a surprise attack!

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Umm... against Lucas, you're going to be rolling away if he pressures your sheild, there's almost nothing he can do about that.

But most likely you're going to be approaching so when approaching watch out for pivot-grab.

On sheild Lucas' n-air has 0-frame advantage, but you're going to want to wait for him to jab to sheild grab him afterwards. There's very little shield mix-up stuff Lucas can do.

Be extremely careful about missing techs near Lucas, we have probably one of the best jab locks (minimum KB, 6 damage, low SDI multiplier). And his d-tilt lock leads into U-smash or F-smash.

If there's anything else, I'm willing to help out too.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Wow, that was all extremely useful and mostly not well known information (well, not well known to ME anyway). Thanks!

EDIT: Does Kirby have grab release shenanigans on the PK children?

 

[SmileyStation]

Wow, that was all extremely useful and mostly not well known information (well, not well known to ME anyway). Thanks!

EDIT: Does Kirby have grab release shenanigans on the PK children?

Im not certain, but I havent seen or experienced any special grab releases on the PKs. They are both about the same size and about the same weight class so it seems unlikely.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Im not certain, but I havent seen or experienced any special grab releases on the PKs. They are both about the same size and about the same weight class so it seems unlikely.

Pretty sure you can pummel to ground release dash regrab with kirby on Ness/Lucas.

 

[aqua421]

i know that grab release to dash grab works on ness, not too sure on lucas. when i was trying it lucas would slide too far away, but maybe i just wasn't doing it right.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ness and Lucas have the same ground release, Lucas has a worse air-release.

 

[*JuriHan*]

It's actually a fairly close match-up, gimping Lucas isn't as easy as you may think because he has more recovery options than Ness. 55-45 sounds about right in Kirby's favor.

I played Tallman offline yesterday and I got some replays. My Kirby won all except when we got Luigi's Mansion, a stage I would ban against and would recommend every Kirby should ban when fighting Lucas so I didn't save the replay on that and I sorta sandbagged because he was just spamming d-smash and it worked so well ._. it was a three stock too, (the stage three stocked me, not him) but like I said NEVER fight Lucas there he can do locks and stuff too.

Here are the other three matches I had with him:

match 1-Final destination http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3ssRNICj4U

match 2 - Frigate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjyWswydp7U

match 3- Luigi's Mansion (Would of banned + I sand bagged so I didn't save it lol)

match 4- Halberd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQQ00aRh2t8

hope that helps you guys

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Milady, your videos are private

 

[*JuriHan*]

Sir, your videos are private

um, im a girl, so please dont call me sir. I fixed them you should be able to see them now srry

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Fix't 4 u.

The Lucas seemed to do a lot of approaching. People with good projectiles shouldn't ever have to approach Kirby, or ever even move in the forward direction.

Whenever I get greedy and start to space with Bair, Lucases tend to do retreating Nairs or pivot grabs, or retreating PK Fires. So usually I just run in my shield, lol.

 

[Dooms]

lucas will spam the crap out of you with pk fire, and lucas has in general many ways to make you get the crap out. His dair is really good, and can combo into a d-tilt lock -> any smash, so look out for that. his nair auto cancel's pretty easily and is hard to dodge, so look out for that as well. punish him through the lag if he chooses to do anything thats not nair, fair, dair, pkfire, or fsmash. fair auto cancel's and can kill at high percents. fsmash is really fast and kills really early so look out for that.

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

For me, this matchup is just PK Fire vs Bair. I'm not sure what else to say about it. You guys have to approach unless the Lucas is impatient. He shouldn't be though. We are used to running from approx 30 of the 35 characters anyway. More later; I should be practicing this MU tonight.

EDIT: dthrow Utilt is NOT guaranteed. You can DI hard left/right and avoid the utilt.

 

[Kewkky]

For me, this matchup is just PK Fire vs Bair. I'm not sure what else to say about it. You guys have to approach unless the Lucas is impatient. He shouldn't be though. We are used to running from approx 30 of the 35 characters anyway. More later; I should be practicing this MU tonight.

EDIT: dthrow Utilt is NOT guaranteed. You can DI hard left/right and avoid the utilt.

That's where reverse utilts come in handy. If a utilt won't reach because you DI'd away, the reverse utilt will get you. Of course, it's a low % combo, like your dthrow>utilt.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm so disappointed in you guys. I came here curious about the Lucas matchup, then look a few pages back and see an epic failure in matchup representation against Ike. Seriously...you let a garbage character like him get away believing it's a neutral matchup. It's nothing short of madness really.

Either way, I have little to add to this discussion, besides how easily both characters edgeguard each other.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

You guys may already know this, but Lucas gets pissed when you d-air him through the PK thunder during a recovery, since it breaks through AND meteor spikes him, he's pretty mush screwed, while us on the other hand, have amazing vertical recovery.