Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

[Berserker.]

I dunno, it sounds like Kirby's inhale gab would reach Mario's hurtbox and activate the super armor, making the cape pretty much useless.

I might be wrong though.

I'm gonna try testing that. It sounds correct probably.

Lol, he's completely right; we should leave the numbers for last. The most important thing is that we know how and what to do and where and when to do it. If we keep disputing numbers, we'll be in the Mario MU for 2 months...

That's what I'm trying to say so can't we conclude the match up as 55:45 as Kirby's favor. Majority says it's 55:45 Kirby anyway.

 

[warpd]

Who should be next?

 

[jiovanni007]

So Mario's been more or less decided to be 55:45 Kirby. Any suggestions for who to do next? Hmm...............

 

[Pink murder]

I dunno, it sounds like Kirby's inhale gab would reach Mario's hurtbox and activate the super armor, making the cape pretty much useless.

I might be wrong though.

I don't think so, unless you're already within grab range before Mario attempts a cape.

I'm sure that I've been turned around with Mario's cape while trying to inhale before.




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[Delta Z]

And I think I've had both happen. It probably has to do with how close Mario is when he uses it.

 

[Berserker.]

I think the next one should be a rediscussion: Zelda


Our other MUs that weren't discussed: Bowser, Lucas, CF, Jiggly, Samus

 

[ThreeSided]

I'm looking at the ZSS match up, and it seems a bit outdated. We don't really space with side-b or n-b anymore. It's all about pacing with Bair and comboing, and then using side-b or DA>Utilt to punish. I know I'd like to know this match up better, because I main her.

Also, we've been looking more into the idea of Suit Piece stage control. We could bring up a few stage-dependent techniques and see where that brings us.

 

[Nihongo-ookami]

I'm looking at the ZSS match up, and it seems a bit outdated. We don't really space with side-b or n-b anymore. It's all about pacing with Bair and comboing, and then using side-b or DA>Utilt to punish. I know I'd like to know this match up better, because I main her.

Also, we've been looking more into the idea of Suit Piece stage control. We could bring up a few stage-dependent techniques and see where that brings us.

I always swallow the first piece thrown at me.

 

[jiovanni007]

I'm looking at the ZSS match up, and it seems a bit outdated. We don't really space with side-b or n-b anymore. It's all about pacing with Bair and comboing, and then using side-b or DA>Utilt to punish. I know I'd like to know this match up better, because I main her.

Also, we've been looking more into the idea of Suit Piece stage control. We could bring up a few stage-dependent techniques and see where that brings us.

I'll consider it, and we inhale suit pieces. You can punish if you glide toss.

 

[Kewkky]

Z-catching Samus' suit pieces as Kirby is easy thanks to our many jumps: we just catch her pieces wherever they are, and throw them offstage. Inhaling them is the worst idea any Kirby can do, we get too much lag from it from which ZSS capitalizes... The only character that can inhale them and not be punishes as easily is Wario due to his small ending lag.

And, I think the ratio is pretty much OK where it is. We might discuss newer things, but the ratio will remain the same: ZSS beating Kirby around the same amount she does right now.

 

[ThreeSided]

Z-catching Samus' suit pieces as Kirby is easy thanks to our many jumps: we just catch her pieces wherever they are, and throw them offstage. Inhaling them is the worst idea any Kirby can do, we get too much lag from it from which ZSS capitalizes... The only character that can inhale them and not be punishes as easily is Wario due to his small ending lag.

And, I think the ratio is pretty much OK where it is. We might discuss newer things, but the ratio will remain the same: ZSS beating Kirby around the same amount she does right now.

We're not talking throwing pieces around willy nilly. It would mostly be pieces thrown up. I have this whole technique that would work fairly well for stage control, and be hard to punish. Basically, just throw them up whenever you can. If you're worried about kirby catching them, jump up and grab them before they can. We have a faster vertical speed ayways. And it's fairly dangerous to try to juggle someone holding a suit piece, so it's safe to jump up and get them.
Again, stage control. Nothing huge, but a nice something to have.

 

[Kewkky]

We're not talking throwing pieces around willy nilly. It would mostly be pieces thrown up. I have this whole technique that would work fairly well for stage control, and be hard to punish. Basically, just throw them up whenever you can. If you're worried about kirby catching them, jump up and grab them before they can. We have a faster vertical speed ayways. And it's fairly dangerous to try to juggle someone holding a suit piece, so it's safe to jump up and get them.
Again, stage control. Nothing huge, but a nice something to have.

I know, don't worry: I'm a ZSS mainer and I apply these things everytime I play. Kirby can still jump right next to the pieces and zcatch them then throw them away, if he knows how to play with items as well, which considering we're talking about the highest levels of play it won't be so hard to imagine. I know you said you'd try and beat Kirby to the punch, but that just means you'll cancel all of your current options to run and protect your pieces from being grabbed... What if this is what Kirby wants to do, then he evades your approach and lands while you're whiffing your aerial attack? That wasn't a very good idea, and to avoid this situation, you'll have to play more careful than what you were doing, giving Kirby the chance to throw them away easier than before.

That's just one situation, and purely theoretical at that. In practice there could be a number of factors that would give Kirby the ability to take the pieces and throw them away, as well as the worst option (which is only preceded by doing nothing) which is inhaling them and taking the uair/upB/whatever ZSS decides.


I agree on stage control giving you a better MU, but from a Kirby perspective, I don't think it would really change much. Against other characters maybe, but not against a Kirby, which can just find a way to wait until you try to throw them up again.

 

[ThreeSided]

I know, don't worry: I'm a ZSS mainer and I apply these things everytime I play. Kirby can still jump right next to the pieces and zcatch them then throw them away, if he knows how to play with items as well, which considering we're talking about the highest levels of play it won't be so hard to imagine. I know you said you'd try and beat Kirby to the punch, but that just means you'll cancel all of your current options to run and protect your pieces from being grabbed... What if this is what Kirby wants to do, then he evades your approach and lands while you're whiffing your aerial attack? That wasn't a very good idea, and to avoid this situation, you'll have to play more careful than what you were doing, giving Kirby the chance to throw them away easier than before.

That's just one situation, and purely theoretical at that. In practice there could be a number of factors that would give Kirby the ability to take the pieces and throw them away, as well as the worst option (which is only preceded by doing nothing) which is inhaling them and taking the uair/upB/whatever ZSS decides.


I agree on stage control giving you a better MU, but from a Kirby perspective, I don't think it would really change much. Against other characters maybe, but not against a Kirby, which can just find a way to wait until you try to throw them up again.

Fair enough. Now what do you think WOULD work? Remember, on the Suit Piece thread, we've been looking for techniques that would work on particular match ups/stages. Think there'd be any way to play good stage control against kirby? Feel free to move the discussion there if you want.

 

[Kewkky]

Fair enough. Now what do you think WOULD work? Remember, on the Suit Piece thread, we've been looking for techniques that would work on particular match ups/stages. Think there'd be any way to play good stage control against kirby? Feel free to move the discussion there if you want.

Jumping over Kirby then z-dropping the pieces would ruin his air game a lot, since the piece falls slowly instead of throwing it down, which makes the piece fall faster and knocks Kirby too far for follow-ups. It'd bait an airdodge if Kirby is in the air and force him to land, and if you can beat him to the ground, that's a bad day for Kirby. And if Kirby remains airborne due to you reaching the ground and hitting him back up, use the piece to bait another airdodge by throwing it up, and continue the suitpiece catching-and-throwing while punishing Kirby's options.

Still, a wise Kirby would learn about this and choose to get hit, DI and momentum cancel instead of airdodging and landing in this very bad situation. And jumping above Kirby while kirby is trying his best to not give you an edge over him is no simple task, either. So, it's mostly all situational stuff and ideas that might come to a player depending on how the match is being played out at the moment, as well as how much the ZSS player knows the Kirby player's game.

 

[ThreeSided]

Jumping over Kirby then z-dropping the pieces would ruin his air game a lot, since the piece falls slowly instead of throwing it down, which makes the piece fall faster and knocks Kirby too far for follow-ups. It'd bait an airdodge if Kirby is in the air and force him to land, and if you can beat him to the ground, that's a bad day for Kirby. And if Kirby remains airborne due to you reaching the ground and hitting him back up, use the piece to bait another airdodge by throwing it up, and continue the suitpiece catching-and-throwing while punishing Kirby's options.

Still, a wise Kirby would learn about this and choose to get hit, DI and momentum cancel instead of airdodging and landing in this very bad situation. And jumping above Kirby while kirby is trying his best to not give you an edge over him is no simple task, either. So, it's mostly all situational stuff and ideas that might come to a player depending on how the match is being played out at the moment, as well as how much the ZSS player knows the Kirby player's game.

I'd be afraid to z-drop a piece above kirby because he could very well catch that piece with the airdodge. At that point, it's not such a bad day for kirby. =P

What about down throwing instead of up throwing? It might mess with kirby's ground game. Keep the pressure up and close (but not too close of course) to prevent bad messing with the pieces. Think that would be worth anything?

 

[Kewkky]

I'd be afraid to z-drop a piece above kirby because he could very well catch that piece with the airdodge. At that point, it's not such a bad day for kirby. =P

What about down throwing instead of up throwing? It might mess with kirby's ground game. Keep the pressure up and close (but not too close of course) to prevent bad messing with the pieces. Think that would be worth anything?

It'd still be a bad day, due to Kirby not being able to use any instant disjointed aerials, and being forced to get rid of the piece before he can contend in an aerial battle against ZSS. I always see it as a positive situation when opponents have items in hands, since they only have 4 directions where they can attack, and diagonal approaches against them become a LOT easier (unless they get really good at zdropping>aerial to recatch and attack, which even if I do it a lot as a ZSS user, is still a very hard thing to do and master).

As far as Kirby's ground approaches go, he could ftilt them and cancel out their active hitboxes (as well as his attack, it cancels if it clashes making him able to move again instantly), or he could just bair them to stop the hitboxes and keep the spacing active. Any tilt that Kirby has (as well as any type of jab) will cancel against the pieces, as well as cancel their hitboxes. He could also run, powershield, then do whatever option he desires (including continuing the run) due to his small size and shield, unlike taller characters who have to stop before they're in the pieces' hitbox range, making it harder to powershield the pieces...

It's still good options to have for ZSS, in an actual match it might help due to all the other factors being accounted into the match (player thought-processing, adrenaline, set-ups, bait-and-punishment, mindgames, etc). But in a safe, passive and stress-lacking theoretical discussion it's easy to find ways to go around such options, since we have no hurry to think of an answer before you make your next move.

 

[ThreeSided]

I'd just like to say that I enjoy and highly appreciate your neutral and intelligent way of discussing this.

So I guess they're all options, but nothing particularly match-up changing. Which means I've got to keep brainstorming.

Do you think a SP bouncing right on the edge would mess with kirby's cutter recovery? They'd have to hit the edge perfectly to avoid getting hit, since final cutter's transcendent priority mans it won't pause/cancel the SP hitbox.

Also, what of the SH>Dthrow>FFUair>repeat camping? What would that be worth in this match up?

 

[Kewkky]

Do you think a SP bouncing right on the edge would mess with kirby's cutter recovery? They'd have to hit the edge perfectly to avoid getting hit, since final cutter's transcendent priority mans it won't pause/cancel the SP hitbox.

Well, unless you drop the SP where Kirby will be putting his hitbox, it shouldn't really affect much. It's a good idea to drop an SP at Kirby if he's trying to make it to the ledge, but keeping a piece bouncing on-stage when Kirby is already grabbing the ledge (or about to) is not a good idea. Once Kirby grabs the ledge, there's nothing stopping him from grabbing the piece and throwing it away. If it's part of your plan to get him to use up his time grabbing the piece due to you having an answer to anything he might do with the piece, then by all means do it. But risking an armor piece like that would mean less stage-control, even if it does come with the plus-side that you don't have to pay attention to all 3 of your pieces. So, it can be a win/lose situation: use accordingly if it will earn you a kill or lots of % against Kirby.

And, if Kirby's last recovery option is upB to the ledge, and he's below (or at level with) the stage, dropping a piece on him to knock him farther away is the safest option you can do. With its lingering hitbox, it will eventually crash into Kirby and knock him farther away, giving you the kill (you could also jump down and re-catch the pieces if you're nimble with your fingers, I've done it and it's fun to feel your fingers inputting commands real fast and seeing good results coming from it :D).

Also, what of the SH>Dthrow>FFUair>repeat camping? What would that be worth in this match up?

Well, it would be pretty bad for Kirby to make it past the uair due to the huge hitbox, but he can still get in from the moment you short hop to the moment you'll start the uair. It's no turtling, but it may have its uses if you're trying to bait a response from Kirby, which I assure you that Kirby WILL try to approach (if you're ahead, of course). Since you're always mobile, it won't be hard at all to hit Kirby out of anything he might do, as well as avoid his upB projectile due to its startup.

 

[fromundaman]

Just want to point out that since Kirby can catch armor pieces with aerials, Zdropping a AP on Kirby isn't that great of an idea, since it means you have to be above Kirby, and it's not like you have that many options in that scenario, and a Kirby Uair negates most of them, with a chance of catching the armor piece, and if not, possibly clashing with it and negating it's hitbox (Does it work that way? I haven't been in this situation before TBH.).

Also, Personally, I try to get rid of all but one armor piece vs ZSS, if she hasn't already done so herself. Then Kirby can do a lot of what she can (throw it down FFUair, JCIT, use it to bait responses, use it to bait a shield to get an inhale off, etc.).

 

[Pink murder]

Also, Personally, I try to get rid of all but one armor piece vs ZSS, if she hasn't already done so herself. Then Kirby can do a lot of what she can (throw it down FFUair, JCIT, use it to bait responses, use it to bait a shield to get an inhale off, etc.).

I do the same thing; except I usually throw the piece out once it has served its purpose. ZSS doesn't usually fall for the same thing twice, and it would be too big a risk if she got a hold of it.




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[Kewkky]

Just want to point out that since Kirby can catch armor pieces with aerials, Zdropping a AP on Kirby isn't that great of an idea, since it means you have to be above Kirby, and it's not like you have that many options in that scenario, and a Kirby Uair negates most of them, with a chance of catching the armor piece, and if not, possibly clashing with it and negating it's hitbox (Does it work that way? I haven't been in this situation before TBH.).

Sadly, Kirby's uair has too much of a start-up to use it against falling armor pieces (and even if he had time, Kirby would still get hit due to it interacting with Kirby's hurtbox). From the front or the back, Kirby pretty much has it covered both on land and in the air. But if Kirby is in the air, then suddenly ZSS feints an approach and jumps over Kirby as Kirby is misled by the feint, a zdropped item will pretty much put him in a disadvantaged position. You have no time to react to that situation, which is what ZSS should be going for.

... Which shouldn't be discussed in MU discussions due to "feinting" being a mindgame, from what I remember people telling me way back when. But it ws just a friendly practical game discussion between ThreeSided and me, so all was allowed. Hohoho!

 

[fromundaman]

Hmmm... while I see your point, hypothetically speaking, the armor piece shouldn't hit his hurtbox since Uair is mad disjoincted.

 

[Kewkky]

Hmmm... while I see your point, hypothetically speaking, the armor piece shouldn't hit his hurtbox since Uair is mad disjoincted.

If you manage to uair the piece, you are now commited to uair and ZSS can come down and do anything to Kirby (aerials don't clash and cancel). Successful bait, or failed parry?

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ I guess we can discuss Bowser, unless everyone agrees with their match up boards being 60/40 Kirby while we have 70/30 Kirby. =P ☆

 

[Pink murder]

I'm cool with Bowser.

Also, 60/40? I think they're overrating their character xP. On the other hand, maybe we're overrating our own


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[fromundaman]

If you manage to uair the piece, you are now commited to uair and ZSS can come down and do anything to Kirby (aerials don't clash and cancel). Successful bait, or failed parry?

Well, I guess it depends how high off the ground we're talking. FFed Uair doesn't really have much landing lag, and ZSS doesn't have a whole lot of options from above other than FF and try to hit with a Fair/Bair/Uair, or downB away.

 

[Kewkky]

Well, I guess it depends how high off the ground we're talking. FFed Uair doesn't really have much landing lag, and ZSS doesn't have a whole lot of options from above other than FF and try to hit with a Fair/Bair/Uair, or downB away.

I can agree with that no prob, although I'll still emphasize the ZSS shouldn't jump over Kirby if Kirby can reach the ground faster than she can.

 

[fromundaman]

I can agree with that no prob, although I'll still emphasize the ZSS shouldn't jump over Kirby if Kirby can reach the ground faster than she can.

Very true.

 

[jiovanni007]

we're officially discussing BOOZER now get att em

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Lol @ his recovery?

I don't lose vs. Bowsers because all I do is grab when I have no idea how to approach a matchup. Any bad non-grab approach will usually be punished by Up+B in my experiences. Bowser cannot do much about grab spamming.

 

[Berserker.]

This is obviously 70:30 Kirby

Off-staging Bowser is TOO EASY since he's a BIG target but take note HE'S FASTER THAN YOU so you caombo him easily and you know... stuff.... Oh copy his ability then flame him.

Yeah I saw there match up of Bowser VS MK and it's.....

45:55 MK's Favor only wut!?!?!

I was expecting a 30:70

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I wouldn't got as far as 70:30. Maybe 60:40. Fortress is an excellent punish and damage stacker, and he can punish through shields with Side->B. And it doesn't take all that many hits for Bowser to be able to kill Kirby. Then again, the lag on his moves is so bad that Fsmashes are given to us. And it only takes one nudge off the stage for the matchup to polarize entirely in our favor.

 

[Kewkky]

I wouldn't got as far as 70:30. Maybe 60:40. Fortress is an excellent punish and damage stacker, and he can punish through shields with Side->B. And it doesn't take all that many hits for Bowser to be able to kill Kirby. Then again, the lag on his moves is so bad that Fsmashes are given to us. And it only takes one nudge off the stage for the matchup to polarize entirely in our favor.

Umm, the way you described it sounds like it's 70:30. o_o

Lucky for us, Bowser is big and heavy, which means we can string the heck out of him. His fortress can't work well as a combo breaker in the air, since it can't cancel hitstun like what our aerials cause, meaning that if we get him off the ground with an utilt, it's a very bad situation for him. From fthrow>uair>utilt to bair zoning, and ending with some nasty edgeguarding from Kirby's part, it's safe to say that Bowser will have some nasty problems if we manage to start anything that might lead into a string. His aerial upB may get him out of low% strings, but at mid %s, our aerials will be giving him too much hitstun which only airdodges and aerials can cancel.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

It's probably because I play a lot of B+ and I keep forgetting how much worse he is in this game >_>

 

[Pink murder]

I thought we weren't discussing Match-ups until the end xP

Oh well, in my experience, it's definitely 70:30 Kirby. Bowser is simply too easy for me.

He's big, fat, and heavy; making stringing together attacks child's play. We also completely destroy him offstage, and we can get him into some pretty steep percents with well placed aerials and tilts. Grabbing him is also easy as well as rewarding. His moves are generally slow, but they do pack a pretty decent punch. The only disadvantage that I see is that he can K.O us pretty early, while we take a little longer to K.O him. He also has that suicide throw, but I don't think it's too much of a problem. I think I read this above, but fortress isn't as effective as a combo breaker on Kirby's aerials. The only sure thing Bowser can try to do is DI away and hope we won't chase him.

IMO, we win by a landslide on this MU.


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[Berserker.]

KOing him won't matter, we can easily rack up damage by combo'ing him. U-tilt will be used a lot since his heavy and all of Kirby's air games excluding n-air can combo Bowser very easily.

 

[fromundaman]

While I agree with the fact it's a rather easy MU... have you guys actually played Bowser players? No offense, but it doesn't seem like you guys know much about Bowser except for Fortress OoS.

Interesting things to know:
-SideB cancels landing lag.
-Grab release shenanigans. Lots and lots of them. CGs on many characters. Guaranteed followups on most of the others.
-Lots of range.
-Great at punishing spot dodges.
-His jab is really good.
-If he SideBs while falling towards a platform, if he falls through it the move stops and he goes into a neutral aerial state, meaning he can instantly perform any aerial. For this reason, platform stages are quite good for him.
-Utilt is a good Anti-air move and KO move, but leaves him very open.
-UpB has startup invul both on the ground and in the air (to my knowledge), meaning he can use it to avoid gimps and break out of combos. However, it leaves him very open in the air, can be SDI'd>punished, and is slower to come out then on the ground (I believe), which, coupled with the fact it makes him rise, makes it less than ideal for combo breaking, but it's pretty much his best/only option.
-His aerials all kind of suck except his Fair, which is pretty good. His Uair is good for punishing predicted air dodges too.
-He kills early.
-Gets comboed to hell, as many already said.
-Can be inhale>footstooled (Can avoid it by immediately UpBing, but that pretty much kills him.)
-Firebreath is a pretty good spacer/edgeguard when used sparingly, but it's effect is lessened against Kirby since we can go around it with our many jumps, and we can SDI>Uair it.

That's about all I can think of atm.

 

[~Shao~]

-Grab release shenanigans. Lots and lots of them. CGs on many characters. Guaranteed followups on most of the others.

This. He can grab release us and follow up with his jab combo, which racks some good damage. But you shouldn't be getting grabbed to much anyways, if you're spacing correctly.

 

[Berserker.]

It's good to copy him. Flame can rack up damage good and has range.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Yeah, I knew most of those. They are cute, but not worth mentioning because the only thing we should actually watching out for would be the Fortress shenanigans, because it can quite effectively shut down aerial spam until we've got him in the air.

His ranged moved are very slow (Ftilt, Dtilt, Fsmash lol), and his grab range is terrible. Idk if Bowser can do more than grab release -> jab combo on Kirby, I've never been regrabbed before.

He IS excellent at punishing defensive options, but in this matchup, we really have no reason to be on the defensive ever. Most Bowser kills are outright kills, since his recovery is too lol to pull off anything fancy off stage, so how many opportunities should he have to punish air dodges?

When I didn't see it coming, I have been roflcombo'd by fire off stage cutting off my Up+B several times. But it was friendlies and I didn't care, so I don't know if I could have easily gotten out of that after the first time lol.