I think Kirby and Mario's ground+aerial speed are pretty much the same as Mario's. And how can Mario hope to reach an aircamping Kirby without ending up in uncomfortable positions like freefall?
Mario is actually faster on the ground and in the air, though has a lot less aerial mobility due to Kirby's jumps.
Kirby may be light, but he also kills pretty early. A good up-angled fsmash might be slightly weaker than Luigi's, but it still has WAY more range... I don't think Mario should trade hits unless he has the advantage... Otherwise, he's just setting himself up for a kill (same goes for Kirby if he goes for traded hits).
Mario does too if his Fsmash or Usmash are fresh. Bair as well, but that is never fresh.
Kirby's light, but not SUPER light. He can survive till decent %s (140-160%) with proper DI and momentum cancelling, when not against character with powerful (and fast) kill moves.
For a Mario Bthrow, that's kind of early
Only if we recover predictably. How will all of those work if Kirby just floats around the jumping Mario? Remember that we have 5 jumps and we're floaty (slow falling speed), so saying you can FLUDD/Cape/Nair our upB's is pretty iffy, thanks to the game's DI and our multiple jumps/slow falling speed.
Gimping Kirby is not easy, but it's not undoable either. FLUDD/Cape both **** Kirby's UpB and/or can be used to deplete his jumps to force the UpB, as can fireballs and aerials. Anytime Kirby isn't recovering high (which he almost always should in this MU, unless if he gets hit with a Dsmash or maybe Ftilt at high percent), there is potential for a gimp.
I completely agree, but it's way harder for Mario to win than it is for Kirby. What if we enver allow you to setup your short-ranged combo starters? What if we never fall in range of your grabs due to your grab range and our multiple jumps (and when we run out of jumps, we just land when you're far enough or whiff an approach)? What about if you're offstage, and we know you'll only make it to the edge if you cape, and we grab the ledge when your cape ends? To me, Kirby has it loads easier than mario does.
Ledge camping/planking isn't very effective... especially against Mario. Fireball>followed by runoff Bair>pivot UpB = stagespike guaranteed if you're trying to ledgecamp and are not MK/G&W/maybe Marth. On top of that, Mario has an effective speed-hugging option.
Air camping can be a problem though, especially considering how well Bair can stop attempts to punish it. However, FLUDD can mess up your positioning, which can lead to a situation where we punish Kirby's eventual landing. That being said, that scenario is still bad for Mario.
Kirby could just edgehog Mario as an alternative for dairs. Or we can bair you farther away every time while keeping an eye for retaliations. Or we could grab release you near the ledge (if we get the grab, which shouldn't be hard at all) and grab the ledge then hit you with an invincible bair/fall with a dair on you/ grab the ledge and hit you with an aerial hammer if you land on-stage with an upB of yours due to your landing lag.
While that's true, Mario has very good DI, and only Dsmash and 2nd swing hammer will really send him at a low enough angle to put what you said into play. Best bet is to knock him back out with Bair when he recovers high enough times that he can't make it back.
Stages? I dunno. Kirby does well in all legal stages according to the SBR's tierlist, Marios should help us out with this one... Sad thing is, for Marios to counterpick us, they'll have to CP stages with close sides... Which are our favorite CPs, too, since we kill crazy early with fsmash and bair.
Japes. Japes hurts Mario pretty bad due to the water essentially crippling him.
Mario definitely has the tools to win, but Kirby has it wa easier. Mario only has 2 jumps and an upB, for example, making it easier for us to juggle him than the other way around, easier for us to avoid gimps/spikes/edgeguards than the other way around, and easier to find openings than it is for Mario due to our aircamping capabilities... Our fsmash can compare to Mario's fsmash, and Mario can punish with his fsmash. However, Kirby's sees more uses (frametraps for landing opponents, edgeguards, KO option on-stage, pushing shielding opponents off the stage onto the ledge into disadvantaged positions...) due to its range, long-lasting AND moving hitbox, and the hitbox-extending-through-his-body-to-his-back thing.
It's actually a lot easier for Mario to Juggle Kirby if the Mario knows how to escape Kirby's strings. However, Mario's Fsmash is a LOT better than Kirby's. Sweetspotted, they both kill early, but Mario's is faster, has no real punishable downtime, a lot more range, and a smaller downtime (which also has no warning sound at the beginning, instead having a startup that makes his hurtbox smaller.). Kirby's, on the other hand, is a lingering hitbox, which is good as well, but for different things, and also has a lot of range, though not quite as much.
As for the uses for Kirby's Fsmash... all of those apply to Mario's as well. Only the Frametrap for landing opponents is better due to the lingering hitbox.
Whatever ratios you guys wanna put, I'm good with. But, you guys should know it's not, nor ever going to be, dead even (50:50)... Ever.
It *may* not be dead even, but if not, it's honestly not far from it.
Mario's fsmash has less horizontal range than Kirby's fsmash. His fsmash being punishable is bad, but I don't think a player would want to land in a bad position at high %s, unless the fsmash was a sure hit. So, saying that Kirby's fsmash is more punishable when it's being used in the same was as Mario's fsmash (to punish), when Kirby's kills earlier, has more range, and whose hitbox lasts a long while, is pretty much bupkis.
Mario's actually has more range, especially when stutter stepped, and more of it is disjoincted.
What if Kirby absorbed Mario, and he has fireballs... What can Mario do about an aircamping spam-happy Kirby? We have lots of jumps and are floaty, after all, so whatever answer you will have against Kirby, Kirby will have against Mario (powershield and go in for an uair? Kirby can do this vs Mario too).
Kirby definitely has the advantage in this scenario. However, there is one thing Mario can do that Kirby can't: Shoot FLUDD at you (it beats fireballs) until you lose the power (water and windboxes can make you lose powers). Still not a great situation though.
Are you implying that Kirby's fsmash and bair are situational? His fsmash is no more situational that Mario's fsmash, if not less situational. Having more range and a longer-lasting hitbox assures that situations arise more often, and Kirby's bair is hardly situational... A situational Kirby kill move could be... A Kirby uthrow kill at 150-160%, which will happen if you avoid and/or DI his kill moves.
Situational may not be the right word, but Fsmash isn't a staple killer either.
Bair, however, is a staple killer, since, while I'm guessing you don't know this A2, but Kirby's pummel refreshes his moves, despite being quite fast, meaning it is very easy to refresh Bair in kill percents.
Less safe, but better for punishing. Higher risk/reward, and the risk isn't that bad either... Worst that could happen is Kirby gets shieldgrabbed of poked with a non-lethal hit due to the shield knockback when he hits the opponents' shields.
Mario can Dsmash us if he PSes it, and probably even if he doesn't (though I'm not sure on that one.). He can probably punish it with Fsmash too, considering Kirby can Fsmash himself in a ditto if he shields an opponent's Fsmash.
So, Kirby's doesn't? If used near ledges, Kirby's fsmash is his safest move: if opponents block, they tumple onto the ledges, making it unpunishable. Away from the ledges, the worst that could happen is we get shieldgrabbed, or poked by a non-lethal attack due to the knockback you'll receive from shielding the kick.
If used near an edge... maybe. And even then, a roll kills it. In general though, it's not as safe as Mario's because Kirby moves in the same direction they do, whereas Mario actually takes a step back in the direction opposite they were moving.
Kirby's fsmash is less effective the later we hit with it? I don't understand this well... Can you rephrase it, please?
He meant the initial hit is the sweetspot, and on a spotdodge it hits with the sourspot.
What if we do falling bairs? We can ftilt you before you usmash, and we can even do falling bair>rising bair without risking shieldgrabs on the falling bairs due to the knockback on shields.
If well spaced, a falling Bair wins. However, if you do a crossover, as A2 mentiions, then you will be in Usmash range due to Kirby's rather slow airspeed, and it will hit before the Ftilt/2nd Bair.
Same goes for Mario's fireballs, grabs, and spacers. Kirby can get around them without taking damage. Saying otherwise will point out to you being biased to your character's advantage due to not having played good Kirbies.
Except what he said was that Mario can work around them without being completely shut out. You just said that Kirby should never get hit by Mario, and that saying otherwise proves a bias. You may want to rephrase that, because that is incredibly false. Or maybe you meant we would perfect shield every attack and spotdodge every grab?
Nope. We can approach with shieldgrabs, bairs, ftilts, dash attacks (which are quite sexy), and even feint a shield approach then turn around and utilt your projectile AND yourself for running in expecting some frame advantage.
DA is actually a bad idea since you can SDI it and punish before it ends, or if you shielded it, shieldgrab before it ends.
Also, more often than not, Mario should follow the fireball, but not be so close as to get hit by a Utilt, especially since I think it actually clashes with the fireball. In general though, Kirby is lacking approach options, and the best thing to do is bait an approach. Mario, on the other hand, has approach options, but he too is better off baiting approaches, but has a projectile to do it with.
That being said, Kirby's Bair is indeed a good way to approach in this MU (But be careful of shieldgrabs. Mario has a fair number of shield punishing moves, such as Dair and cape on shield. Hell, even weak FLUDD then punish the missed grab.)
Why didn't you talk about Kirby's aircamping? What can Mario do if Kirby has the advantage, then just shields all the fireballs and aircamps Mario, then whenever Mario approaches he goes for the ledges? If you get close to the ledges, KIRBICIDE. If you don't get close to the ledges, then we can fair you and retreat back to the ledges with no fear of retaliation due to our multi-hitbox and floatiness. If you spam fireballs, we just drop off, jump around a bit, then grab the ledge, since we're not just going to jump into the fireballs and into your combos... And what about if Kirby takes your power and starts camping you back? We can use the fireballs better than you guys, and that's a fact.
Already addressed all these points, though those are in fact good situations for Kirby.
@ A2, if Kirby is in such a situation where DownB gimping is a good idea, then he probably should have Dair gimped you before you got near the edge.
Also, pummel refreshes make Bair a reliable kill move.
