Official E for All Firsthand Impressions DISCUSSION Thread

[Zek]

What I don't understand is why competitive players think the removal of a handful of advanced techniques is going to remove the skill from the game. You guys are the ones who love to say that these things aren't what make you good. In a match between two people who have both perfected wavedashing/L-cancelling, the outcome is decided entirely by your other skills. So what's the problem now? You'll still beat people worse than you. The only difference is that the button combos involved have been simplified a little.

 

[Kigai]

Hey check out this guy, he seems to have a lot of info on Brawl:

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=38962729

 

[Luigi Ka-master]

Lol yeah Aho is too good at posting.

zomg i couldnt have said it better then strykes, wavedashing is out go cry. If you are already down talking brawl you should just go and play melee and stop whining. We dont even know if wave dashing is out for sure its only a demo. But even if it is this is brawl not melee 2 and it will reign over you no matter what! I personally think the game will be better from the lack of wave dashing though because it will allow for a much bigger spectrum of playing style.

Lol yeah, people who don't WD in Melee have such creative fighting styles, you don't even know.

essentially what you're saying is, "yah, getting rid of this versatile form of movement will definately expand playing styles, fo sho guyz"

 

[sHy)(gUy]

I don't understand why people think we'll be able to find all these new advanced techniques in Brawl. Doesn't what we know so far already disprove that to some degree? Sakurai is working extra-hard here to make sure that exactly that *can't* happen. He's trying his best to make sure that the game is what it appears to be--a party game. I'll break it down for you with an analogy.

Look at Street Fighter II. When it was released, Capcom had no idea that players would learn to cancel their moves directly into specials, but that went on to become the core of the Capcom fighting system, because they used it and regulated it when SFIII was designed. The SF is now the most popular fighting franchise ever.

Melee, similarly, had hidden depth which was not imagined by its creator. Only, instead of embracing that depth, like Capcom, Sakurai has chosen to remove it. What's more, he's purposely making the game shallower by removing canceling, which was present in the previous two games. So not only is he removing the unintended effects, but he is removing the things which he purposely built into the others.

See the difference? People think it'll take ages to discover ATs in Brawl, because it did with Melee. The analogy doesn't work, however, because now, we know what to look for in Brawl--in fact, we've already looked for lots of it, and it isn't there. There simply isn't the diversity of functionality, from what anyone can tell, that would lead to ATs. And if they do arise, what's to say they won't be immediately corrected in Brawl v.1.1?

Comparing street fighter and smash isnt a very good anology, the fact that some advanced techniques from melee have been eliminated doesnt mean there is going to be less depth to brawl.

The point of smash is having a plethora of different attacks that can be done simply in any combanation and that still holds true in brawl. Things like wavedashing and l-canceling dont matter as much as you think. To be a true pro at this game you have to devolop your characters moves based on ur opponent, watch any pro play melee just because the fact that they use the wd or l-cancel in the right situation isnt what makes them good at the game what makes them good are essentially what attacks they do and when they do them. Things like shielding and grabbing are much more important. The point of smash is knock ur opponent off the stage and no matter what changes are made to the game smash will still be smash, and skill level will still be involved.

 

[PrinceOfSmash]

Umm, I can wavedash, and Im glad it's gone. None of my frineds ever want to play anyomre, and I thinks it's becuase of me and my wavedashing. It just pushed me over the edge, and they didn't have a chance at winning. So if it's gone, then they'll want to play again, and i'll have more people to play with. Everyone wins!

No you juss win cos now u wont be able to tank ur frends as easy thus they will play with you...all my friends and I wd...but i can deal if its gone ill adpt and learn new things but it wood be nice if they kept wd

 

[estion11]

IMO, either you'll miss WDing or you can't do it. Prove me wrong

well, not Gimpy, but even he has to miss wavelanding

I can wave dash and wave land and i DO wave dash and wave land a lot, but i will not miss them because brawl is not the same game as melee and i dont know how ide go about missing something that wasnt ever there... sry if this is a late reply

 

[blayde_axel]

Off Topic: Hey, Shyguy, did you go to the tourney last month?

Anyway, sad to see some of the adv. techs go. I was just learning them! Looks like I'll be playing Melee just a bit longer... after Brawl, of course.

EDIT: No L-canceling?! I thought it was an official tech... oh well.

 

[lanky_gunner]

new info from the other thread. someone from gamefaqs

Got in another round.

Mario's Down + A in mid air performs the Mario tornado move. I don't think you can do it while grounded.

New Assiist Trophy I saw:
Saki from Sin and Punishment: Successors to the Earth. He follows you and shoots you and if you get close he takes out his sword to slash you. By following, from what I observed is that he moves up and down platforms... not sure if he gets closer or not.

One of Link's other color includes gold
Ike has another win pose.

In Norfair, to not take damage from the tidal wave you must be inside the bluedoor when the tidalwave arrives. Anyone outside the blue door --which usaully covers a small platform -- takes damage. The blue doors are on both sides of the tube and closes when the tidal wave arrives. IT then dissapears afterwards.

Sonic's spring can be destroyed.

EDIT: now i finally know how to perform the Tornado. i can rest easy with my main

 

[Marthgreil]

Hmm, hopefully they do include a faster FE counterpart to Ike.

Like Marth? Also, that was the basis of the Lyn fanbase. That didn't work though. Besides if we do have a 3rd rep (assuming Roy is gone) it should be Sigrun or... *points to sig*

 

[Bloshi]

Ever more so with L-cancelling. If L-cancelling is gone, and if what I've read is true, some moves still have plenty of lag, attacking a shield with an aerial is totally worthless. Why? Shieldgrab. Spacing can only get you so far.

The point of my previous post is that these moves with punishable lag were intended to be punishable. By making them harder to punish we mess with the balance of the game. A good fighter is balanced, no? There still exist moves that are hard/impossible to shieldgrab, and they were made to be like that. It is an advantage of the move. By giving moves advantages they shouldn't have, the game becomes less balanced.

Look at Bowser in melee. All his aerials non-l-canceled are easily punished. It wouldn't make sense to give him a fast aerial, so the solution? An aerial grab. It balances his aerial approach. Other characters like Ganondorf have no aerial grab, but still very laggy aerials. Solution? Give them great spacing. The characters with long grab-ranges get around this, but that is part of the matchup now that the shielder has taken an identity.

 

[sHy)(gUy]

"Off Topic: Hey, Shyguy, did you go to the tourney last month?"


which one? LAST smash? ya i went

 

[SonicZeroX]

The point of my previous post is that these moves with punishable lag were intended to be punishable. By making them harder to punish we mess with the balance of the game. A good fighter is balanced, no? There still exist moves that are hard/impossible to shieldgrab, and they were made to be like that. It is an advantage of the move. By giving moves advantages they shouldn't have, the game becomes less balanced.

Look at Bowser in melee. All his aerials non-l-canceled are easily punished. It wouldn't make sense to give him a fast aerial, so the solution? An aerial grab. It balances his aerial approach. Other characters like Ganondorf have no aerial grab, but still very laggy aerials. Solution? Give them great spacing. The characters with long grab-ranges get around this, but that is part of the matchup now that the shielder has taken an identity.

lol Ganondorf DOES have an aerial grab. Up B

 

[Bloshi]

OMG ur right! But it's kinda hard to get down there it do it lol.

 

[Zauron]

EDIT: No L-canceling?! I thought it was an official tech... oh well.

It was, but removing it helps reduce a lot of latency issues with WiFi play, and helps to close the gap between players with technical button-pressing skills and those without, re-focusing the game on its original design goal - to have all moves be easy to do but requiring superior understanding of the metagame and mind games in order to win. L-cancelling has been removed but most air attacks now have much less lag time, meaning one less button to worry about and more focus on other aspects of play.

Its not as big of a deal as removing Wavedashing though, since it doesn't remove a strategy. There are times to Wavedash and times when you should not, and multiple directions to do it in, etc. Choices. That's what makes strategy. There was no real choice in L-cancelling - if you had the skill to use it, you would use it on every air attack you did, period. That's not a strategy, its just a timing skill test. It doesn't really change the way pros play in any way, besides removing the need to press a button to do SHFFL'ing (now SHFF'ing).

 

[NES n00b]

The point of my previous post is that these moves with punishable lag were intended to be punishable. By making them harder to punish we mess with the balance of the game. A good fighter is balanced, no? There still exist moves that are hard/impossible to shieldgrab, and they were made to be like that. It is an advantage of the move. By giving moves advantages they shouldn't have, the game becomes less balanced.

Look at Bowser in melee. All his aerials non-l-canceled are easily punished. It wouldn't make sense to give him a fast aerial, so the solution? An aerial grab. It balances his aerial approach. Other characters like Ganondorf have no aerial grab, but still very laggy aerials. Solution? Give them great spacing. The characters with long grab-ranges get around this, but that is part of the matchup now that the shielder has taken an identity.

The problem with this. L canceling was intended. Paradox?

Either that or Sakurai missed the same kind of glitch two times in a row and it only halved the lag which doesn't make sense for a glitch that cancells lag.

 

[Ryan-K]

You people need to learn what wavedashing is because a majority if you apparently think it was the most broken thing on God's green earth lol.

ITS A ****ING SLIDE. Stop acting like it is a broken alternative for something because it isn't.

 

[squiser]

I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure if I care enough to get worried about it (I don't have the time or inclination to become tournament good, but enjoy Smash immensely while playing with friends. But that's just me, and I do hope that some ATs are discovered for the tournament players.

However, has any evidence been shown that there will be downloadable patches? Or is the Brawl 1.1 comment just an aside?

This is a good point I don't see a lot of people mentioning... I don't see how Nintendo can not implement patches in a game where the balance is as delicate as smash. So there's hope guys... we're the secondary testers - things can still change.

 

[hojiky]

IMO, either you'll miss WDing or you can't do it. Prove me wrong

well, not Gimpy, but even he has to miss wavelanding

i can WD. i also won't miss it. maybe it's just because i play a lot of marths... WD fsmash, WD fsmash, WD fsmash.

wavelanding will definitely be missed.

 

[Ijuka]

Okay, I've finally done with reading this whole thread(I was on page 23 when there were only 26 pages, but then one page kept appearing after another faster than I could read..), and I have to comment on people complaining about advanced techniques.

They add more depth, yes. But in my opinion... well, wavedashing, for example. A starting player who learns to wavedash perfectly, he's like "OMGZZ WAVEDASHING SO COOLXXXX" and uses it dumbly when there would be a lot better options available. Why? because everyone wavedashes, it's TEH PRO TECHNIQUE! I MUST USE IT OR I'M A NOOB!11111

So yes. You'll show off with wavedash because it looks cool and pro. Do a lot of dumb stuff too complicatedly even if it could be done in a more simple way. Why? Because wavedashing is pro. Same thing with SHFFL. You shffl spam with fox COX HIZ SHIEN LIEK IGNOREZ ALL LAGZORS!! Then you wonder why that same Marth always dash dance grabs you out of your SHFFL. But can't change, because wavedashing and SHFFLing is pro.

In my opinion, the removal of these techniques will make better players stand out even more. Why? BUT THEREZ NO WEAWEDASHHHH!111 AND II WANA BEH AEBUL TO WEEVIESHEINEHHH!!1!!1

Because, what really makes a good player good? Mindgames, the ability to think, to outsmart your opponent. With the removal of the need to concentrate on the unnecessary technical stuff(although there's sure to be new techniques developed), a player can fully concentrate on outsmarting his or her opponent. And that' to me, sounds very promising.

I don't mind the removal of advanced techniques at all. It's actually a positive change in my opinion. And I hope this mindset will give me an edge over the majority of gamers. You might think that I'm a noobie who doesn't know how to do all the advanced techniques, and thus would like to have them removed. Actually, it couldn't be more the opposite.

For example, here is a video of me playing SSBM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=305KpTVlihY

I'm not a superpro, but in my opinion good enough to have this kind of opinion Oh yes, and I'm known for especially my technical skill, not mindgames. So it's not just all the "me ish nub so ish gud tat me no nid to du haard stuf". Anyway, I hope some of the adv-tech-wh*res will at least consider my view for a while before continuing their rampage of flaming.(not really, just sounded cool)

I hope you took the time of considering my views, and thank you if you did.

*sucks with formal replies, always makes them too long *sob* ;_; *

Edit: Wow, 4 more pages during the time I was typing this. Back to reading.

 

[Bloshi]

It was, but removing it helps reduce a lot of latency issues with WiFi play, and helps to close the gap between players with technical button-pressing skills and those without, re-focusing the game on its original design goal - to have all moves be easy to do but requiring superior understanding of the metagame and mind games in order to win. L-cancelling has been removed but most air attacks now have much less lag time, meaning one less button to worry about and more focus on other aspects of play.

Its not as big of a deal as removing Wavedashing though, since it doesn't remove a strategy. There are times to Wavedash and times when you should not, and multiple directions to do it in, etc. Choices. That's what makes strategy. There was no real choice in L-cancelling - if you had the skill to use it, you would use it on every air attack you did, period. That's not a strategy, its just a timing skill test. It doesn't really change the way pros play in any way, besides removing the need to press a button to do SHFFL'ing (now SHFF'ing).

That's another good argument for its removal. I can just see a bunch of Nintendo execs sitting in chairs around a table discussing these same sorts of things.

As for l-cancel being intended, yes that is strange. I totally forgot. In the first game it might have been an exploit/glitch/what have you, but in Melee? Hmmmmmmmm. I don't know why they put it in, in all honesty, if they took the pains to balance each characters' aerials. Well, they took it out now, which is all the more reason to apply the balancing mechanisms in each character.

 

[estion11]

Lol yeah Aho is too good at posting.



Lol yeah, people who don't WD in Melee have such creative fighting styles, you don't even know.

essentially what you're saying is, "yah, getting rid of this versatile form of movement will definately expand playing styles, fo sho guyz"

It is the most versatile form of movement and everybody uses it. Its not like there are different ways to wave dash only 2 forward and backward (note im not talking about wave landings). Sure you can use different attacks while wave dashing. But with wave dashing being omited and the speed of the game decreased people will have to resort to different strategies in approaching and different mind games. Removing the the most versatile form of movement does NOT directly correlate to the abundance of playing styles!

 

[Sir James]

This is a good point I don't see a lot of people mentioning... I don't see how Nintendo can not implement patches in a game where the balance is as delicate as smash. So there's hope guys... we're the secondary testers - things can still change.

That's going to be complete chaos. I hope that the game is already balanced enough to a point where whiny noobs don't start crying on message boards to nerf characters. Future patches should focus on game-breaking glitches and maybe even new content.

 

[BentoBox]

Lol, pretty sure one of, if not THE main reason why people play smash competitively is because they love getting better at the game...[yadayadaada]

I was talking about myself, obviously. I seriously don't understand why people get so worked up about all of this tho. Sure, pros might like the game more than casuals but now look where that led you. Whines, *****ing and flames because things didn't turn out the way you thought they would, because all of the changes done to Brawl were surely for the sole purpose of pissing off the self-proclaimed Elite. You people have to stop assuming that if Brawl turned out how it now is, its because of casual players. We didn't develop the game. Sakurai did. Crying on a forum won't change anything. Making online petitions will have the same negligible effect. And it is fairly ironic how you guys love getting better at a game, bash down "noobs" who won't abide to your standards and yet you prove little to no adaptation capacity when it comes to discussing Brawl. If Sakurai wishes to make the game more accessible, why does it matter to you? The casuals will still remain casuals and the competitive players will still strive to get better at the game (if they do even give it a chance, that is). When it comes to discussing the implementation of X or Y technique in Brawl, you people always end up looking at it from a melee 2.0 perspective; surely, Luigi will suck in Brawl now that WDing has been disabled. Surely, now that Bowser is stronger, he will make it to top tier. In melee maybe, but this is Brawl we're talking about. And thats one thing thats seemingly too hard to grasp for half of these boards.

And you know what? Melee is still there. Nothing at all is forcing you to play a watered-down version of Melee, after all. As someone else said earlier, if you're going to base 5 years of metagame on a few videos and impressions, then the only word coming to mind is ignorant.

 

[Shai Hulud]

What I don't understand is why competitive players think the removal of a handful of advanced techniques is going to remove the skill from the game. You guys are the ones who love to say that these things aren't what make you good. In a match between two people who have both perfected wavedashing/L-cancelling, the outcome is decided entirely by your other skills. So what's the problem now? You'll still beat people worse than you. The only difference is that the button combos involved have been simplified a little.

Consider the following proposition, which I state without proof:

All good players use advanced techniques.

Now, the only thing implied by this statement is the contrapositive, i.e.,

Everyone who does not use advanced techniques is not good.

What absolutely is NOT implied, is that all users of advanced techniques are good. In other words, some players using advanced tactics still suck. That is the point we have been making. Being able to use advanced techniques does not make you good. It is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for being good.

I don't like the removal of advanced techniques because it decreases the skill gap between players. The gap still exists, but it may be a matter of me 3-stocking you rather than 4-stocking you. And that's between players of different skill levels. In a competitive environment many players are near the same skill level. A smaller skill gap obscures tournament results by increasing the frequency of fluke victories.

You don't see very many Mario Party tournaments--know why? Because it's a party game, not a competitive game. And that's how Brawl is shaping up to be.

 

[Zek]

The problem with this. L canceling was intended. Paradox?

Either that or Sakurai missed the same kind of glitch two times in a row and it only halved the lag which doesn't make sense for a glitch that cancells lag.

It was intended, but obviously Sakurai changed his mind. I think it makes sense to get rid of it for exactly the reasons Bloshi said - it allows the devs to balance aerials in part around their lag time. In Melee, every aerial has a near-trivial recovery time thanks to L-cancelling. In Brawl, an aerial that has a high lag time could be made stronger to reward the player for taking that risk, while the previously weak aerials could be made worth using with no lag. It removes emphasis from technical skills and shifts it to strategy.

 

[blayde_axel]

From reading something that Vortok typed, I'm assuming "Dark Link" is the dark Link featured on Twilight Princess. Dark clothes, dark tan, red eyes... sounds like them.

 

[SHINE FX]

and yeah, pretty sure taking out L-cancelling is THE dumbest thing I've ever heard of. seems to me there's only one really logical reason l-cancelling is out of the game, which says a lot about how the game is going to be structured.

I wholeheartedly agree.
QFT

 

[Luigi Ka-master]

The point of my previous post is that these moves with punishable lag were intended to be punishable. By making them harder to punish we mess with the balance of the game. A good fighter is balanced, no? There still exist moves that are hard/impossible to shieldgrab, and they were made to be like that. It is an advantage of the move. By giving moves advantages they shouldn't have, the game becomes less balanced.

Look at Bowser in melee. All his aerials non-l-canceled are easily punished. It wouldn't make sense to give him a fast aerial, so the solution? An aerial grab. It balances his aerial approach. Other characters like Ganondorf have no aerial grab, but still very laggy aerials. Solution? Give them great spacing. The characters with long grab-ranges get around this, but that is part of the matchup now that the shielder has taken an identity.

I don't think the producers purposefully put in L-cancelling as a way of making the game more unbalanced. I think they put it in as more of a, "hey, if you really like this game and are willing to put some effort into getting good, you can greatly increase the potential of your aerial game with this technique"

then again, I guess they could have thought that, but after secretly spying on competitive smashers for some time, decided that it was too broken. Thus explaning why they took it out entirely.

Either way, Bowser's air-grab definately doesn't make up for his laggy aerials, LOL.

 

[NES n00b]

It was intended, but obviously Sakurai changed his mind. I think it makes sense to get rid of it for exactly the reasons Bloshi said - it allows the devs to balance aerials in part around their lag time. In Melee, every aerial has a near-trivial recovery time thanks to L-cancelling. In Brawl, an aerial that has a high lag time could be made stronger to reward the player for taking that risk, while the previously weak aerials could be made worth using with no lag. It removes emphasis from technical skills and shifts it to strategy.

Isn't that what we are talking about with the l cancelling issue? Melee? Since he talked about how l cancelling was going around how the game was balanced? I am pretty sure he was using Melee as an example to show why it shouldn't be in Brawl but it was intended so it is merely a change of mind. . . . not that Sakurai did balance the characters without l cancelling in mind and it wasn't intended.

 

[PrinceOfSmash]

Ill miss wd but i think focusing on playing smart rather then technical is more important and with wd and wl out that will help find out who is truly good and who is just flashy

 

[joenopride]

It was intended, but obviously Sakurai changed his mind. I think it makes sense to get rid of it for exactly the reasons Bloshi said - it allows the devs to balance aerials in part around their lag time. In Melee, every aerial has a near-trivial recovery time thanks to L-cancelling. In Brawl, an aerial that has a high lag time could be made stronger to reward the player for taking that risk, while the previously weak aerials could be made worth using with no lag. It removes emphasis from technical skills and shifts it to strategy.

Someone can correct me if I'm definitely wrong, but the whole point of Z-canceling was so players could get their shields up right after landing to be safe from an attack. However, having your shield come up almost instantly created some serious issues. So to keep a balance and let you get your shield up quicker, but not have full lag cancel, they removed half the lag.

 

[Zek]

Consider the following proposition, which I state without proof:

All good players use advanced techniques.

Now, the only thing implied by this statement is the contrapositive, i.e.,

Everyone who does not use advanced techniques is not good.

What absolutely is NOT implied, is that all users of advanced techniques are good. In other words, some players using advanced tactics still suck. That is the point we have been making. Being able to use advanced techniques does not make you good. It is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for being good.

That's exactly what I'm saying. It won't stop you from getting really really good, far better than the average player. But it does make the game more intuitive so the average player is more likely to reach a high level naturally without going out of his way to master obscure techniques.

I don't like the removal of advanced techniques because it decreases the skill gap between players. The gap still exists, but it may be a matter of me 3-stocking you rather than 4-stocking you. And that's between players of different skill levels. In a competitive environment many players are near the same skill level. A smaller skill gap obscures tournament results by increasing the frequency of fluke victories.

True enough, but that's a small sacrifice for a much greater gain as far as I'm concerned. What you're saying is that the real drawback to this decision isn't even all players that can wavedash/L-cancel, but only the true minority of players that are at the highest level of tournament play. That's a no-brainer decision. Even so, there will definitely be enough of a skill gap to drastically tilt the odds in favor of the most skilled participants, and we don't know that skill won't emerge in other areas as a result of other balance changes.

You don't see very many Mario Party tournaments--know why? Because it's a party game, not a competitive game. And that's how Brawl is shaping up to be.

lol, come on now. As long as Brawl doesn't start awarding extra stocks in the end for the player that traveled the furthest or used the most specials, I think we'll be okay.

 

[Sir James]

Ill miss wd but i think focusing on playing smart rather then technical is more important and with wd and wl out that will help find out who is truly good and who is just flashy

In addition, it'll finally end the lame excuses "omg you only beat me because i can't wavedash". It's going to be all smart playing until someone finds a new glitch.

 

[BentoBox]

Was Smash64 a party game?

 

[Bloshi]

I don't think the producers purposefully put in L-cancelling as a way of making the game more unbalanced. I think they put it in as more of a, "hey, if you really like this game and are willing to put some effort into getting good, you can greatly increase the potential of your aerial game with this technique"

then again, I guess they could have thought that, but after secretly spying on competitive smashers for some time, decided that it was too broken. Thus explaning why they took it out entirely.

Either way, Bowser's air-grab definately doesn't make up for his laggy aerials, LOL.

Yes, I agree. They removed it because they wanted their balancing mechanisms to happen in actual competitive play. And in regards to Bowser, sad, but true. Oh well, there's no such thing as prefect balance, amirite?

It's been fun discussing this, but I've got homework to do!

 

[Heavyarms2050]

cool link is a gold member now

 

[PrinceOfSmash]

Off topic:Sir james is a beast
I need more videos then those 2 ....i can deal with the at being gone and im sick of ppl throwing bf's about it...learn to deal ....i wish ppl from e for all wood start posting now!

 

[baheffron]

What I don't get, is why the scrubs are glad that WDing is out. If, as they claim, they are truly "good" without using ATs, (IE, they can beat their friends) then why do they even CARE if WDing is in or out when no one in their circle of friends even uses it?? Why bash people who have fun getting better at the game by using ATs when it doesn't affect you? The scrubs can keep playing in their slow way and have fun, but now all the people who like to get better using ATs are screwed over for no good reason. Perhaps I'm being over pessimistic, but that seems to be the way that this game is going.

I also want to say that after I discovered this site and started learning advanced techs, Melee instantly became 2x as fun as it was before because I was playing it at a new level. I don't understand why people can say that these "glitches" ruin the game when, for me, they made the game so much better! Why take this stuff out? I guess all I can do is hope that some new techs are discovered. I'm sure that it will still be an immensely fun party game, but if Brawl doesn't have the depth that melee had because of its ATs, I can't see it having nearly as much replay value as melee.

 

[sHy)(gUy]

Because, what really makes a good player good? Mindgames, the ability to think, to outsmart your opponent. With the removal of the need to concentrate on the unnecessary technical stuff(although there's sure to be new techniques developed), a player can fully concentrate on outsmarting his or her opponent. And that' to me, sounds very promising.

QUOTE]

Agreed,


but "Pros" dotn need to concentrate on technical stuff, all of thats already built in, its how they incorporate the technical into thier mindgames......

I think we could even get a more accurate view of how good people really are at smash now that the game is more basic.... and i bet the same people that are the best players in melee will be the best players in brawl(if they choose to play it)

 

[Sir James]

Because, what really makes a good player good? Mindgames, the ability to think, to outsmart your opponent. With the removal of the need to concentrate on the unnecessary technical stuff(although there's sure to be new techniques developed), a player can fully concentrate on outsmarting his or her opponent. And that' to me, sounds very promising.

That is so true man. I use advanced techniques in Melee...but honestly, I don't feel any better as a player. It just tells me that I wasted hours of my life trying to build muscle memory to win a game of Melee. But when I use mindgames to win a match, I feel like I played 10x better.

Sakurai is a genius...I don't think we have anything to worry about.