Official E for All Firsthand Impressions DISCUSSION Thread

[LockeExe]

What I don't get, is why the scrubs are glad that WDing is out. If, as they claim, they are truly "good" without using ATs, (IE, they can beat their friends) then why do they even CARE if WDing is in or out when no one in their circle of friends even uses it?? Why bash people who have fun getting better at the game by using ATs when it doesn't affect you? The scrubs can keep playing in their slow way and have fun, but now all the people who like to get better using ATs are screwed over for no good reason. Perhaps I'm being over pessimistic, but that seems to be the way that this game is going.

I also want to say that after I discovered this site and started learning advanced techs, Melee instantly became 2x as fun as it was before because I was playing it at a new level. I don't understand why people can say that these "glitches" ruin the game when, for me, they made the game so much better! Why take this stuff out? I guess all I can do is hope that some new techs are discovered. I'm sure that it will still be an immensely fun party game, but if Brawl doesn't have the depth that melee had because of its ATs, I can't see it having nearly as much replay value as melee.

It could possibly be because that the online mode would be ruined if quite a few games you joined had ATers in them. Alot of people I know don't want that. I certainly don't mind either way.

 

[Luigi Ka-master]

And you know what? Melee is still there. Nothing at all is forcing you to play a watered-down version of Melee, after all. As someone else said earlier, if you're going to base 5 years of metagame on a few videos and impressions, then the only word coming to mind is ignorant.

Not if the only impressions we're getting imply that Sakurai is making a strong effort to eliminate ATs.

 

[Youkai Master]

The forums are **** right now so I don't know if this has been posted, but http://youtube.com/watch?v=8bnZtU5c8Qw at 00:32 Peach does her up-b but she's facing the wrong way and DOESN'T automatically grab the ledge. Woo hoo!

 

[Mrobinson587]

Why does gamefaqa have more updates then here? Come on smashers!

 

[Burning Lava]

Someone can correct me if I'm definitely wrong, but the whole point of Z-canceling was so players could get their shields up right after landing to be safe from an attack. However, having your shield come up almost instantly created some serious issues. So to keep a balance and let you get your shield up quicker, but not have full lag cancel, they removed half the lag.

No, you're not wrong... Sakurai's just an anus wad.

I don't know what to think about all this mess. I've been reading some of the hands-on stuff, and my stomach just feels kinda weak. I've been prepping myself for a "no wavedashing game," but when I read the giant list of things that have been removed... I feel so... betrayed. WHY SAKURAI!!??? I really think someone needs to do an in depth interview with Sakurai ASAP! (Or maybe Iwata.)

Someone comfort me.

 

[JPW]

Wavedashing.... hmm I never mastered that anyway. I've been trying to, lately i've just been trying that roll and dodge. I've almost mastered that.

Bowser being vastly improved gives me hope for Gannondorf vastly improved. Also it's nice to know the claw does damage.

I had a feeling Fox be done up, his whole new look and all screams of a tougher and slower moveset. I also reckon this could be pointed to Falco returning as the quicker one.

Peach getting nerfed was unexpected, but I guess it's good for the Peach fans.

I was expecting Samus to have a few setbacks. ZSS seems to be the better form, and the more focused one for them in this game by the looks of things.

Edgesweeting. In Melee sometimes I couldn't understand how I missed the ledge, so i guess i'm kind of happy about it being easier.

Sonic hard to use huh? I like a challenge. I expect Sonic attackers to be using a lot of short moves anyway. JUst let it build up. Then again, I see a lot of kids using the spindash. I never expected Sonic to be strong he's always been based on speed. Despite whatever the unsupporters say i'm still going to use him.

Ike. The fact that's he's slower, yet tougher opens up hope for Marth in my view. Leaving Ike opened when doing Aether is something I wasn't expecting but hey i'll live with it.

Slower than Melee. I saw that coming. Brawl seemed that way from day one. And there is so much more skill and new stuff involved, so I was expecting a slowdown in speed. I'm sure Fast mode will change things though.

 

[Zek]

No, you're not wrong... Sakurai's just an anus wad.

I don't know what to think about all this mess. I've been reading some of the hands-on stuff, and my stomach just feels kinda weak. I've been prepping myself for a "no wavedashing game," but when I read the giant list of things that have been removed... I feel so... betrayed. WHY SAKURAI!!??? I really think someone needs to do an in depth interview with Sakurai ASAP! (Or maybe Iwata.)

Someone comfort me.

it's going to be okay burning lava

would you like to qq on my shoulder

 

[BentoBox]

Not if the only impressions we're getting imply that Sakurai is making a strong effort to eliminate ATs.

Why does everyone forget about the fact that they actually HAVE added a few new techs? Fact: you cannot argue about the depth of Brawl until you've actually played it. Comparing it to melee is meaningless.

then again, I guess they could have thought that, but after secretly spying on competitive smashers for some time, decided that it was too broken. Thus explaning why they took it out entirely.

And this is the kind of attitude I frown upon. You cannot possibly get more self-conceited than that. Sakurai obviously applied these changes to piss YOU off. Mhhmmhmmmm.

 

[Falco&Victory]

Comparing street fighter and smash isnt a very good anology, the fact that some advanced techniques from melee have been eliminated doesnt mean there is going to be less depth to brawl.

The point of smash is having a plethora of different attacks that can be done simply in any combanation and that still holds true in brawl. Things like wavedashing and l-canceling dont matter as much as you think. To be a true pro at this game you have to devolop your characters moves based on ur opponent, watch any pro play melee just because the fact that they use the wd or l-cancel in the right situation isnt what makes them good at the game what makes them good are essentially what attacks they do and when they do them. Things like shielding and grabbing are much more important. The point of smash is knock ur opponent off the stage and no matter what changes are made to the game smash will still be smash, and skill level will still be involved.

This post contains more LOLZ than I can count

"the fact that some advanced techniques from melee have been eliminated doesnt mean there is going to be less depth to brawl. "

Uh, YES, it DOES

"Things like wavedashing and l-canceling dont matter as much as you think."

yeah, let's NOT have more options.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

I can't believe some of you actually arguing that this is a good thing. Snap out of your blind fan-boyism! This game will be substantially dumbed down. I've worked so **** hard to perfect advanced techs over the years, and they've done nothing but improve the game. Anyone who's taken the time to learn them will completely agree with me on that. Think about, really think about it. How restricted will movement be? Bust out melee right now and try playing a match without l-cancelling. I don't know about you guys, but it's the most awkward thing in the freaking world for me. No wavedashing? I feel sorry for Samus players. Have fun doing your slow *** rolls all over the stage. Honestly, how can you guys argue with this. If you have any inkling of a clue about competitive smash, you know how important these techniques are as far as fun, depth and skill differentiation goes. I wouldn't still be playing melee if it weren't for the advanced techs. I'm praying that they left it out of the demo on purpose, or are still working on it in development. I can do without wavedashing, but l-cancelling is a necessity for good players.

 

[Zink]

I can't believe some of you actually arguing that this is a good thing. Snap out of your blind fan-boyism! This game will be substantially dumbed down. I've worked so **** hard to perfect advanced techs over the years, and they've done nothing but improve the game. Anyone who's taken the time to learn them will completely agree with me on that. Think about, really think about it. How restricted will movement be? Bust out melee right now and try playing a match without l-cancelling. I don't know about you guys, but it's the most awkward thing in the freaking world for me. No wavedashing? I feel sorry for Samus players. Have fun doing your slow *** rolls all over the stage. Honestly, how can you guys argue with this. If you have any inkling of a clue about competitive smash, you know how important these techniques are as far as fun, depth and skill differentiation goes. I wouldn't still be playing melee if it weren't for the advanced techs. I'm praying that they left it out of the demo on purpose, or are still working on it in development. I can do without wavedashing, but l-cancelling is a necessity for good players.

In Melee. There's no reason to assume the same for Brawl. There's also no reason to assume that other new ATs won't pick up the slack. Or that having aerials cancel rapidly upon landing will even be significant in the Brawl metagame.

 

[Falco&Victory]

In Melee. There's no reason to assume the same for Brawl. There's also no reason to assume that other new ATs won't pick up the slack. Or that having aerials cancel rapidly upon landing will even be significant in the Brawl metagame.

Um, there is every reason. Like people have played the game >_<

 

[Zink]

Um, there is every reason. Like people have played the game >_<

For, what, less than a day? Good luck deciding on a metagame lasting years based on a 4 day public demo

 

[.Yoshi]

Brawl right now seems to be screaming "party game".....

It's a whole new game. Learn to love it or stick to Melee. People still play Capcom vs. SNK 2.....and that game is how many years old?

 

[BentoBox]

I can't believe some of you actually arguing that this is a good thing. Snap out of your blind fan-boyism! This game will be substantially dumbed down. I've worked so **** hard to perfect advanced techs over the years, and they've done nothing but improve the game. Anyone who's taken the time to learn them will completely agree with me on that. Think about, really think about it. How restricted will movement be? Bust out melee right now and try playing a match without l-cancelling. I don't know about you guys, but it's the most awkward thing in the freaking world for me. No wavedashing? I feel sorry for Samus players. Have fun doing your slow *** rolls all over the stage. Honestly, how can you guys argue with this. If you have any inkling of a clue about competitive smash, you know how important these techniques are as far as fun, depth and skill differentiation goes. I wouldn't still be playing melee if it weren't for the advanced techs. I'm praying that they left it out of the demo on purpose, or are still working on it in development. I can do without wavedashing, but l-cancelling is a necessity for good players.

And another one playing the same old broken record. To make such comparisons, you'd have to assume that Brawl and Melee share the same common features. Samus without WDing in Melee =/= Samus without WDing in Brawl. Lack of l-cancelling in melee =/= Lack of l-cancelling in brawl. How many times am I going to have to repeat this? Those techniques are important in melee, you don't know if they will be in Brawl. Obviously, they won't be since you'll have to live without.

Um, there is every reason. Like people have played the game >_<

Because we obviously knew everything about Melee the day after it was out.

 

[Kigai]

Why does gamefaqa have more updates then here? Come on smashers!

This thread is full of useless arguing, no one wants to post here.

 

[Zek]

For, what, less than a day? Good luck deciding on a metagame lasting years based on a 4 day public demo

Good luck deciding on a metagame lasting years based on never having played the game at all

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

complexity =/= depth.

depth factors in yomi, good option use, and proper play mechanics.

wave dashing is just a movement tactic, l canceling is a recovery tatic. thats it.

there will be other skillfull things that will be forumlated within the new engine of brawl.because this is NOT an update or a fix. its a new game in the series. the game should and probly will play very different.

it dosent matter how long you spent working on your tatics, games ****ing change.

if you need to do something to tell yourself your better than scrubs, you suck.

deal with it or stop playing. if you think the lack of those options will make smash less competative, thats fine. but you cant proove **** now.

and ill be happy to show you how competative a game can be reguardless of the number of options.

can this **** please stop? god ****. enjoy the new news.

i will say nothing more on this topic, its giving me a migraine.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

the thing about all the ATs is they aren't necessarily immediately vital to the game being playable at high level. The ATs may not exist, but that didn't stop us from playing the game in tournaments before they were even discovered. The only theoretically gamebreaking AT would be shield canceling, and that's only if the game behaves like SSB64 did before shield canceling, in where aerials were dangerous to use almost to the point of uselessness due to the overpowering tactic of block throwing. Shield canceling came in and made block throwing dangerous and unlocked the aerial game again.

This is not to say that the absence of shield canceling will break Brawl. From what it sounds like so far, top tier is BOWSER, and Bowser hasn't changed much, save super armor. If this were Melee, Bowser w/o shield canceling would be even worse off than w/ them. If this is the case, why are they considering Bowser a dominator? 'cause this isn't Melee. Different game, different rules, different experience. To treat this game as Melee 2 is to be ignorant from the start.

Who's to say that this game's gonna be glitch-free, too? Who knows if a year down the road, someone finds out how to make something tricky happen w/ the new air dodge that shifts the game around completely? That's how fighters ARE. You discover a tactic, that tactic owns everything. People start doing it. Then people start trying to beat it, usually discovering a new tactic in the process. The whole concept is cyclical until the game has been explored to its every orifice, finding every last inch of depth in the process. Only at the end of this chain do you find out whether a game is truly unplayable at high level. Hell, even at the end of the chain, someone may eventually discover a new link and expand on the gameplay even further. The only thing necessary is the willingness to try and find out what is out there.

 

[Red_Maniac]

Brawl right now seems to be screaming "party game".....

It's a whole new game. Learn to love it or stick to Melee. People still play Capcom vs. SNK 2.....and that game is how many years old?

We'll get used to it.

Besides, after a few weeks...months...years... we'll probably have found a bunch of advanced techniques and Brawl will be taken more seriously.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Woah, I forgot about how essential WDing is for Samus. It's not even a game, seriously, imagine where Samus in Melee would be on the tier list without WDing!

 

[Bread-Butterer]

And another one playing the same old broken record. To make such comparisons, you'd have to assume that Brawl and Melee share the same common features. Samus without WDing in Melee =/= Samus without WDing in Brawl. Lack of l-cancelling in melee =/= Lack of l-cancelling in brawl. How many times am I going to have to repeat this? Those techniques are important in melee, you don't know if they will be in Brawl. Obviously, they won't be since you'll have to live without.

My bad, I forgot, they've substantially slowed down the game engine, why would you ever need tactics that speed the game up? Thanks for enlightening me. Let's just assume those things won't be problems and eliminate the option of using advanced techniques. Game play depth is for *******.

 

[Hoboman725]

so, I'm confused, are sonics Down b and neutral b basically the same move?

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

the thing about all the ATs is they aren't necessarily immediately vital to the game being playable at high level. The ATs may not exist, but that didn't stop us from playing the game in tournaments before they were even discovered. The only theoretically gamebreaking AT would be shield canceling, and that's only if the game behaves like SSB64 did before shield canceling, in where aerials were dangerous to use almost to the point of uselessness due to the overpowering tactic of block throwing. Shield canceling came in and made block throwing dangerous and unlocked the aerial game again.

This is not to say that the absence of shield canceling will break Brawl. From what it sounds like so far, top tier is BOWSER, and Bowser hasn't changed much, save super armor. If this were Melee, Bowser w/o shield canceling would be even worse off than w/ them. If this is the case, why are they considering Bowser a dominator? 'cause this isn't Melee. Different game, different rules, different experience. To treat this game as Melee 2 is to be ignorant from the start.

Who's to say that this game's gonna be glitch-free, too? Who knows if a year down the road, someone finds out how to make something tricky happen w/ the new air dodge that shifts the game around completely? That's how fighters ARE. You discover a tactic, that tactic owns everything. People start doing it. Then people start trying to beat it, usually discovering a new tactic in the process. The whole concept is cyclical until the game has been explored to its every orifice, finding every last inch of depth in the process. Only at the end of this chain do you find out whether a game is truly unplayable at high level. Hell, even at the end of the chain, someone may eventually discover a new link and expand on the gameplay even further. The only thing necessary is the willingness to try and find out what is out there.

You win. No remainders.

 

[sHy)(gUy]

This post contains more LOLZ than I can count

"the fact that some advanced techniques from melee have been eliminated doesnt mean there is going to be less depth to brawl. "

Uh, YES, it DOES

"Things like wavedashing and l-canceling dont matter as much as you think."

yeah, let's NOT have more options.

mindgames are where the true depth lies advanced techniques are just options, you dont need them to play

Of course i want all the advanced techs back in brawl, but we have to look at the facts theyre gone and now he have to go back to the roots of what makes smash smash character matchups and basic attacks, sheild, grab, role etc....

 

[SonicZeroX]

Woah, I forgot about how essential WDing is for Samus. It's not even a game, seriously, imagine where Samus in Melee would be on the tier list without WDing!

*coughAnikicough*

 

[Bread-Butterer]

*coughAnikicough*

How about without missile canceling?

 

[estion11]

complexity =/= depth.

depth factors in yomi, good option use, and proper play mechanics.

wave dashing is just a movement tactic, l canceling is a recovery tatic. thats it.

there will be other skillfull things that will be forumlated within the new engine of brawl.because this is NOT an update or a fix. its a new game in the series. the game should and probly will play very different.

it dosent matter how long you spent working on your tatics, games ****ing change.

if you need to do something to tell yourself your better than scrubs, you suck.

deal with it or stop playing. if you think the lack of those options will make smash less competative, thats fine. but you cant proove **** now.

and ill be happy to show you how competative a game can be reguardless of the number of options.

can this **** please stop? god ****. enjoy the new news.

i will say nothing more on this topic, its giving me a migraine.

amen the truth has been uttered

 

[BentoBox]

My bad, I forgot, they've substantially slowed down the game engine, why would you ever need tactics that speed the game up? Thanks for enlightening me. Let's just assume those things won't be problems and eliminate the option of using advanced techniques. Game play depth is for *******.

Adaptation is for *******. Glad we agree.

 

[RDK]

*coughAnikicough*

Lol....are you insinuating that WDing is not important / essential to higher-up play because one anamoly in a million players exists?

Yes, Aniki doesn't need to WD to kick ***. But WDing isn't a bad thing.

Addressing the whole Melee 2.0 thing--I hope Brawl isn't a Melee 2.0. I want something fresh and new, but also keeps some of the better aspects of the previous games.

What if we had gotten a Smash 64 2.0 for Gamecube instead of Melee? We'd all still be playing Smash 64, with better graphics and more characters. Nobody wants that.

I think we shouldn't make ridiculous speculations about the game until it actually comes out, and people start analyzing every nook and cranny of the thing.

 

[Omega_Star]

Lol, sounds like Celsius doesn't know that it's Falco's reflector that knocks them up... I remember when I didn't know that and wondered why I couldn't get them to fly up.

And lol, Wolf McDonald

Still, nice info.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

Adaptation is for *******. Glad we agree.

I'm assuming you didn't spend 5 years of your life getting good at melee. Sad I know, but it's true, I did. See where I'm coming from?

 

[Maricalistaro]

Im so Scared. Omg change. Seriously move on to the future, move on whatever it getting old listing to people complain about ATs changing. Making assumptions while nearly nobody here has even played the game and basing them from second hand accounts is a waste of time and energy.

 

[Cruise]

in the end we need to realize that this game is designed for the casual players, the millions of them compared to the thousands of competitive players.
then there are the arguments that ATs don't take anything away from the newbies and add more for the pros, which is completely true.

but what we all need to do is wait for the ACTUAL release instead of a demo. a 2 month pushback does not mean adding new characters, that was probably planned out since the beginning. this pushback most likely has to deal with gameplay and game mechanics.

so what can we do as a smash community? pray

i know that no matter how badly things are gonna look after e for all and 4 more months of weekday updates, we're still all going to buuy brawl, just so we can try it ourselves, and if we're gonna go that far in the first place, we're going to at least let the brawl metagame develop.
the smash metagame has been developing for what, six years now? and it's still not finalized or standardized because the game is too fluid to be standardized. of course there are the basic and standard techniques that pretty much everyone in the community uses, but we're just gonna have to give brawl a chance and wait.

who knows, maybe we'll love it, and if we don't , nothing's stopping us from only playing melee
besides, how many of you from the ssb64 days hated melee when it first came out?

but we also can't assume that brawl's gonna be an amazing game since we havent played it yet either.

 

[maxpower1227]

I predict that a year from now, nobody will remember these arguments and everyone, including the competitive Melee players, will LOVE Brawl.

Mark my words!

 

[greenblob]

Anyone discover any low%-to-death combos? My main will probably be the first character that I see doing an elaborate combo up and down the stage.

 

[BentoBox]

I'm assuming you didn't spend 5 years of your life getting good at melee. Sad I know, but it's true, I did. See where I'm coming from?

Sad indeed. You've learned your lesson. It's a game. But then again, nothing stops you from playing Melee. You people are just scared that others might move on and that you'll feel like you have to do the same.

I've been playing on private RO servers for 5 years too. Most wouldn't last more than 5months. I've gotten used to seeing my efforts being put to waste.

 

[Burning Lava]

it's going to be okay burning lava

would you like to qq on my shoulder

*wipes tear* ...maybe Haha, jk, and thanks.

Hmm... I wonder what exactly Sakurai could possibly be up to for the next 3 months.

PLEASE let it be polishing up the fighting mechanics!

EDIT: You know someone at Nintendo has been testing Brawl, and keeping an eye on the quality. I mean, maybe they saw that Brawl might have been finished enough to release, (all stages/characters/modes) but decided that the game could use an extra layer of GAMEPLAY POLISH. ...Possibly. I hope someone like Iwata, who was involved with prior Smash games, steps in and makes Sakurai tweak some stuff, or... put the freakin' techs back in!!! THERE! I SAID IT! Just L-canceling! That's all I want! Please!

Ahem... sorry, I'm cool now.

 

[BDAOutlaw]

Woah, I forgot about how essential WDing is for Samus. It's not even a game, seriously, imagine where Samus in Melee would be on the tier list without WDing!

LOL yeah I was playing samus today against my friends and I think I broke the hundred mark on WDs in one match.....................rolled like twice..... But since I don't know how brawl will be and how Samus's dair, nair, fair, bair will effect my opponent with just a demo I'm going to wait before I decide if I got alot of work to do. Plus the Phazon suit is way pass enough to keep me using her.................... imagine the combos I pull off looking sexy at the SAME TIME!!!!. ****nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn..............................Really though people need to stop concluding so much off of so little info of a game that isn't even out yet..............

 

[EazyP]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dwVo-S-EEv0

Oh hay look new technique with Yoshi

You can use his egg mode to kinda fortress hog and grab the edge (at about 5:20)