Official E for All Firsthand Impressions DISCUSSION Thread

[Heavyarms2050]

you know the closes thing to a wavedash in brawl is to dash and stop yourself by crouching, and you get almost the same effect

 

[AKC12]

Yeah, in spite of my passiveness towards the removal of things such as Wavedashing and Wavelanding, the removal of L-canceling also worries me. L-Canceling helped out practically every character, but now it seems as though there isn't any way to avoid the horrendous delay of certain attacks.

Though, Bowser going spotlight would be interesting.

yoshi info plox

Maybe Sakurai removed it because aerial attacks have much less lag now. At least that's what I hope.

 

[Rodriguezjr]

Yea, Brawl is off to a really bad start. Why the hell are they pointlessly removing techniques.

They weren't really suppose to be in but, I suppose that is what happens when you try to rush a game. But, really, how many of us really knew these tricks will be in the game as soon as Melee first came out? I sure haven't heard about it until I got the internet 4 years ago. There probably might be some new techniques to be discovered later out once we get the game in person.

 

[PrinceOfSmash]

i wanna see some vids anyone kno where? i cant wait for all this info to leak and there probably will be new techs...will they be better? we can wait and find out

 

[NES n00b]

For the sake of the internet, please stop ruining sarcasm.

People are naturally upset about not being able to use techniques they spent countless hours practicing and mastering, but the upside of it all is that the core gamers now have something new to search for rather than dwell on the same techniques that have been used for years. The 'depth' of melee has reached its limit, so the transition from Melee to Brawl (and let's face it, melee techniques in or out, everyone upset about it will play Brawl, and will learn more about it and will love it) can only add depth, not take it away. Where you come to that I really don't understand, since the most useful moves (you know, pressing a while tapping forward, pressing sheild, etc etc) are still there; they are the ones that made the game, not wavedashing.

The longer it takes for people to figure out these techniques the better; it creates a larger lifespan for Brawl. Imo, people are just drama queens.

So I remove jumping so you would have to figure out what to do with jumps that means more options? No. More options = more depth. Sure, I would love that there would be new techs and there will. But who is to say there will be as many, or the game will have as good of ones? Removing stuff does not add anything. I don't know how you can think that.

Why I made posts like I do? Becuase people like these people on this thread are like, "You can't have negative opinions on this game and so shut up" OMG, it is so horrible to not like almost all ATs being removed. We can't make assumptions based on precedent or history. What is people to do but to get flamed or get absorbed in the majority. Of course this is human nature, but going against logic and personal opinions at the same time is just wrong.

 

[PrinceOfSmash]

with the pros we have of course there will be techs discovered though i did love ic's wave dash...some of the best

 

[kilroy]

i wanna see some vids anyone kno where? i cant wait for all this info to leak and there probably will be new techs...will they be better? we can wait and find out

there's a stickied thread for new gamevids.

 

[PrinceOfSmash]

i can understand im upset the AT's are gone but im sure there are many to discover...thought i think auto sweet spotting the ledge is lame

 

[PrinceOfSmash]

where did u see vids? post the link for all

 

[Wyvern]

I'm actually glad L-cancelling is out. We all l-cancel anyway, so what does it matter? It will only help people get into the game. Technical skill is really a sort of barrier blocking new people from entering the smash scene easily, mindgames are the real reason this game is fun.

That'd work out fine if all the attacks had Melee's L-canceled lag by default, but Link's down-air (and probably many others) still have full lag. The reason that this in particular concerns me is because it could theoretically marginalize the use of aerial attacks as offensive maneuvers for a lot of characters. For example, if Link can't L-cancel the Sword Plant, then he's guaranteed to get punished horribly if the other player shields, making it a much less appealing attack in general. Both characters' aerials are slowed down, but the defending character's counterattacks aren't.

But as I said, Brawl seems to have a drastically different physics system and, if Bowser is really as good as Gimpy says, a completely different approach to character balance, so things could very easily turn out differently than how I imagine them. It's just a concern that pops into my head.

 

[PrinceOfSmash]

i spent like and hour reading every single post from page one! i havent got much info i want more!

 

[Thino]

where did u see vids? post the link for all

see the stickied thread

 

[Heavyarms2050]

there no way l-cancel is removed it was in the 64 and melee, it would be stupid of them to remove it now.

 

[kilroy]

where did u see vids? post the link for all

it's stickied, which means it's always in the first group of threads.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=120074

also, try not to double-post. it's against the rules. just edit your post instead. just fyi.

 

[Legolastom]

Jesus Christ he just said there is a stickied thread of them! DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS!?

Anyways I'm with NesN00b mindgames are very likely going to be removed I mean Sakurai put them in melee by accident!

 

[PrinceOfSmash]

lol i work at eb games...maybe they will send us a demo for brawl klike in dec or jan...as if we didnt play smash enuff were gonna be so lazy when brawl is out...cant wait for thos future breaks

 

[Cuno56]

Has anyone checked edge-cancelling?
It seems like it would be there, since we can apparently slide after aerials, unless you're not allowed by the engine to slide off the edge?
Because Melee's JUST now shifting towards concentrating on edge cancelling (imo, anyways) so it doesn't seem like Sakurai would've caught it/fixed it/what-have-you.

really, though, edge canceling? Anyone?

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

But who is to say there will be as many, or the game will have as good of ones? Removing stuff does not add anything. I don't know how you can think that.

Remove Sheik from Melee, and suddenly half the cast becomes more tournament viable.

More options means more things you can do in a given situation, but it doesn't dictate how many of those options will actually help you.

 

[Thino]

there no way l-cancel is removed it was in the 64 and melee, it would be stupid of them to remove it now.

well it wasnt supposed to be in the first two

 

[kilroy]

Jesus Christ he just said there is a stickied thread of them! DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS!?

Anyways I'm with NesN00b mindgames are very likely going to be removed I mean Sakurai put them in melee by accident!

cmon man, relax. give the guy a break.

 

[Proven]

So I remove jumping so you would have to figure out what to do with jumps that means more options? No. More options = more depth. Sure, I would love that there would be new techs and there will. But who is to say there will be as many, or the game will have as good of ones? Removing stuff does not add anything. I don't know how you can think that.

Why I made posts like I do? Becuase people like these people on this thread are like, "You can't have negative opinions on this game and so shut up" OMG, it is so horrible to not like almost all ATs being removed. We can't make assumptions based on precedent or history. What is people to do but to get flamed or get absorbed in the majority. Of course this is human nature, but going against logic and personal opinions at the same time is just wrong.

No. More options do not mean more depth. Look at Wave dashing. It was an extra option, but for many, many characters it became the thing you need to do to reach your fullest potential.

Even if I have a million characters and a million attacks, it all devolves down to the best ones either way, even if there's only a couple of good attacks for a handful of good characters. Everything else can still be used, but compared to the best, there's no contest.

Another example is from Mario Kart DS. Snaking is an option, but it is the best option, you cannot compete against a good snaker without snaking yourself, especially if he's using one of the best kart+charcter combos that also take the most advantage out of snaking. So then, even with there being more options, there's only one viable option. So then there's less depth.

Just look at our current character and tier list for Melee. We have 25 characters, a ton of options, but in the end, tournaments are won by the very best characters. The lower guys have no chance in hell. So instead of having 25 by 25 character matchups, you really only see the top 10 or so. Are you going to tell me that there's more depth this way?

 

[kirbykid]

So I remove jumping so you would have to figure out what to do with jumps that means more options? No. More options = more depth. Sure, I would love that there would be new techs and there will. But who is to say there will be as many, or the game will have as good of ones? Removing stuff does not add anything. I don't know how you can think that.

Why I made posts like I do? Becuase people like these people on this thread are like, "You can't have negative opinions on this game and so shut up" OMG, it is so horrible to not like almost all ATs being removed. We can't make assumptions based on precedent or history. What is people to do but to get flamed or get absorbed in the majority. Of course this is human nature, but going against logic and personal opinions at the same time is just wrong.

You don't know anything about game design. Try making intelligent points or writing intelligent articles about smash before sounding so sure about any of your claims.

You're not doing anyone a favor by trying to be a hero. I suggest slowing down, and thinking for a change.

More options DOES NOT directly equal more depth. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if I added to option to "fly whenever you wanted to" in the original Mario Brothers, the ENTIRE game would be ruined. If the game is focused on jumping (ie. the relationship and interplay of gravity) then adding something that undercuts/destroys this focus is a BAD THING.

I'm not here to hurt your feelings, but I dont' feel like putting up with ignorance.

I understand where you're coming from, so feel free to direct your anger on me. Not only can I correct you or answer any questions you might have, but you might actually learn something and come out of this all the better for it.

Take it. You may not get another chance like this.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

well it wasnt supposed to be in the first two

L-canceling was completely intentional in Melee, no argument possible if you understand what it does at all.

 

[yoshi_fan]

well it wasnt supposed to be in the first two

About L-cancel, i think this is a frame-tech (Wdash isnt a frame tech, because you can do it faster or slower, but L-cancel you have to do it in a INSTANT, you can't be slower or faster, so Wdash will be out because it wasn't suposed) so i think they did that for the sake of wii-motes and wi-fi play. I don't know if i've explained myself correctly.

 

[kirbykid]

No. More options do not mean more depth. Look at Wave dashing. It was an extra option, but for many, many characters it became the thing you need to do to reach your fullest potential.

Even if I have a million characters and a million attacks, it all devolves down to the best ones either way, even if there's only a couple of good attacks for a handful of good characters. Everything else can still be used, but compared to the best, there's no contest.

Another example is from Mario Kart DS. Snaking is an option, but it is the best option, you cannot compete against a good snaker without snaking yourself, especially if he's using one of the best kart+charcter combos that also take the most advantage out of snaking. So then, even with there being more options, there's only one viable option. So then there's less depth.

Just look at our current character and tier list for Melee. We have 25 characters, a ton of options, but in the end, tournaments are won by the very best characters. The lower guys have no chance in hell. So instead of having 25 by 25 character matchups, you really only see the top 10 or so. Are you going to tell me that there's more depth this way?

Your arguments have a few holes in them, but for the most part you're right. So I won't say anything more.

 

[Bloshi]

That'd work out fine if all the attacks had Melee's L-canceled lag by default, but Link's down-air (and probably many others) still have full lag. The reason that this in particular concerns me is because it could theoretically marginalize the use of aerial attacks as offensive maneuvers for a lot of characters. For example, if Link can't L-cancel the Sword Plant, then he's guaranteed to get punished horribly if the other player shields, making it a much less appealing attack in general. Both characters' aerials are slowed down, but the defending character's counterattacks aren't.

But as I said, Brawl seems to have a drastically different physics system and, if Bowser is really as good as Gimpy says, a completely different approach to character balance, so things could very easily turn out differently than how I imagine them. It's just a concern that pops into my head.

That's the point. It's a high risk, so it's a high reward. If the other guy shields when you approach, don't jump in the first place. There shouldn't be a safety technique one can employ when one screws up so that a safe escape can be made.

 

[Proven]

Wyvern, Kirbykid, and many others are going to summarize my post better than me. Again. I really need to get better at this message board debating stuff.

 

[Hammabro]

SO summary..

Fox is nerfed
Peach is nerfed
Ike is slow and possibly may suck
No wavedashing
No L-Canceling
No wave-landing
Dash dancing is still in
Mario is either slightly better or slightly worse
Link is slow but slightly better and has a badass costume
Sonic is over rated and average
Not much on diddy kong besides a revealed move
No mention of maps
Samus is slightly nerfed and ZSS is only usable through final smash
Nothing on: Pit, yoshi, DK, and Pikachu

Anything I miss?

 

[Galt]

I'd say there's more depth in Melee, even with only 10 characters playable. It's not the depth of the engine that forced that result, it was Sakurai's poor character design.

Also, KKK, your argument was a bit absurd, there. Your example of when more techniques != more depth fails to take into account that no reasonable designer would add something like that to a game. In actuality, most any technique *which would actually be added to a game* adds depth, by definition, because it should increase functionality. That's why Brawl looks terribly boring to me: not because I can't wavedash, but because he *won't let me wavedash.* I have fewer options. That's less depth.

 

[Thino]

L-canceling was completely intentional in Melee, no argument possible if you understand what it does at all.

I didnt say it wasnt intentional, Z-cancel was intentional even in SSB64 when we look at it more in-depth , I said it wasnt supposed to be in as not official

 

[Proven]

Ike may have that heavy character anti-stagger ability, so he may not suck.

I'm glad Sonic is balanced, I want to run and jump like crazy and try to not get hit at all. And people are going to get tired of all the spin noises...

We need more MetaKnight info. He may turn out like Sonic.

Link is somewhat faster.

We NEED info on Donkey Kong. Even after Bum came round, people are still throwing him to the wayside.

 

[SonicZeroX]

SO summary..

Fox is nerfed
Peach is nerfed
Ike is slow and possibly may suck
No wavedashing
No L-Canceling
No wave-landing
Dash dancing is still in
Mario is either slightly better or slightly worse
Link is slow but slightly better and has a badass costume
Sonic is over rated and average
Not much on diddy kong besides a revealed move
No mention of maps
Samus is slightly nerfed and ZSS is only usable through final smash
Nothing on: Pit, yoshi, DK, and Pikachu

Anything I miss?

Boozer is Awesome =D

 

[Phlemingo]

I think a form of edge cancelling is confirmed because I remember Sonic using his dair on the ledge of Lylat Cruise and he grabbed the ledge immediately after his dair

 

[yoshi_fan]

SO summary..

Fox is nerfed
Peach is nerfed
Ike is slow and possibly may suck
No wavedashing
No L-Canceling
No wave-landing
Dash dancing is still in
Mario is either slightly better or slightly worse
Link is slow but slightly better and has a badass costume
Sonic is over rated and average
Not much on diddy kong besides a revealed move
No mention of maps
Samus is slightly nerfed and ZSS is only usable through final smash
Nothing on: Pit, yoshi, DK, and Pikachu

Anything I miss?

Pit has a fast b move

Yoshi's up b propulse he a bit into the air. It dpends also of the trayectory (and still drops an egg)

Pit some moves have a lot or reach o_O

ANd nothing more.

Edit: and boozer is awezoomeness

 

[Hammabro]

I'd say there's more depth in Melee, even with only 10 characters playable. It's not the depth of the engine that forced that result, it was Sakurai's poor character design.

WTF? How is it poor character design? Because you didn't get wavedashing? You know all the people that talk like you should go try to make SSBB on your own or stfu and appreciate what the guy is trying to do for us. Jeez.

 

[DarkPhoenix87]

There are a lot of stressed out users in here.

We are all way too obsessed with which characters are going to be which tier. Let's think about this for a second. The demos are not using every character, and we don't even know what the final character list is going to look like. Captain Falcon or Ness (or Geno!) could be top tier for all we know. Every character that hasn't been revealed could be better than all the ones revealed as of now. How do we know?

Secondly, tiers are determined by and apply to the tournament scene. The game isn't even out; surely there haven't been tournaments yet. Additionally, THE GAME ISN'T EVEN OUT. What good does it do you know which character is which tier, oh, say, 4 months before the game comes out?

I think everyone is so anxious to get in on the tournament scene that we're all forgetting why we're playing in the first place: Because we like the series. So let's focus on how characters control, how cool/uncool they look, and other stuff of that nature instead of obsessing over whether Meta Knight is going to be top tier or not. Let's worry about the competitive aspects of the game when it's time to be competitive.

 

[PrinceOfSmash]

i wanna hear more on yoshi and and diddy

 

[Japanese Monk]

Not to mention the game comes out in four months. People need to chill.

Im sure all gameplay elements arent present in the demo. Look forward to new techniques. Grabbing from behind? Seems plausible.

 

[Hammabro]

Fox is nerfed
Peach is nerfed
Ike is slow and possibly may suck
No wavedashing
No L-Canceling
No wave-landing
Dash dancing is still in
Mario is either slightly better or slightly worse
Link is slow but slightly better and has a badass costume
Sonic is over rated and average
Not much on diddy kong besides a revealed move
No mention of maps
Samus is slightly nerfed and ZSS is only usable through final smash
Bowser is AWESOME
Pit has far reach and some decent moves but very little detail on him.
Yoshi's up b is egg throw with a little but of propulsion upwards (depends on trajectory) but very little detail on him
Nothing on: DK and Pikachu

Fix'd.

 

[Kentalish]

diddy ftw i wanna see pics of his dixie costume