Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Kazon]

ohh, i forgot about that >_<
so there are really more good results on ppl like peach and fox than TLink? wow...

 

[ShadowLink84]

You'll have to check.

 

[Kazon]

how can i find that out? ._.

 

[Fogo]

dont forget about luigi. i think he is very underrated.

Yeah i think someone who masters luigi could be like how mango was with jiggz in melee if you get your upb timing down.

 

[Jump_Man]

So where's Bowser going to be placed? Bottom, low, or middle?

 

[Nintendevil]

So where's Bowser going to be placed? Bottom, low, or middle?

Low, but I think Ganon>Bowser IMO

 

[Nitrix]

So where's Bowser going to be placed? Bottom, low, or middle?

High low tier or low mid tier. He is decent.

 

[powell651234]

So I was wondering.
Where would the IC's go tier wise?

please stop saying Sonic would be high tier.
Its never gonna happen

you say this like having Sonic be high tier would make the sonic players more accomplished, when in actuality it would make them less accomplished because they would be using an easier character....

unless your basing your arguement on the idea that tiers develop because mainers evolve their characters faster than others, which would only further the theory that tiers dont exist.

So pick your poison...either way you lose.

 

[ShadowLink84]

stupidity

To be blunt.
Who gives a flying **** about how easy a character is to use?
Whether or not an MK should feel accomplished or not jus because he is top tier doesn't mean a god**** thing at all.

I do not know where you got such an idea (fell on your head or something.) but knock it out of your head.
Sonic will NOT be high tier.
Why?
Anyone with any experience in tournaments and with the character would know why.

As for the second paragraph. Do not cross reference other people's post's with mine.

Translation: lurk moar poast less.

 

[powell651234]

neither is chuck norris, but it's irrelevant because snake is bad in brawl.

This was posted by a "smash lord"....lol, 'the titles on this board mean something'

 

[ShadowLink84]

This matters how exactly?
A stupid post is a stupid post doesn't matter what the title is.

how can i find that out? ._.

Sorry I hadn't seen you post earlier.
Check Ankoku's tournament ranking.
It tells you how well a character is doing tournament wise.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

I think I'm actually starting to see Jigglypuff low tier. I know its crazy, but her tourney results are better than everybody else that is put in low tier, and she has lots of potential with her great air game

 

[DQP]

i propose two tier lists.

one for tournaments, etc.

and another for the laggy wifi.

 

[Nintendevil]

i propose two tier lists.

one for tournaments, etc.

and another for the laggy wifi.

Rofl,


FALCON FOR TOP TIER!!!!


but your asking the back room for hell.

Really though, if your a good player, lag won't be too much of a problem, though it can alter matches if it's seriously sucky lag, you'll just never kow who's better, sorry =/...

 

[HW_Dark Link]

i propose two tier lists.

one for tournaments, etc.

and another for the laggy wifi.

I agree 150%...lol

 

[Nestec]

Omfg, Lucas just practically shot up out of nowhere on the tourney listings.

Ok, this puts him ahead of Ness on the unofficial tier list again. Better toruney results + better match-ups (I think?). >_<

Seriously though, I find it funny how the two are right next to one another in the tourney results.

 

[Nintendevil]

Omfg, Lucas just practically shot up out of nowhere on the tourney listings.

Ok, this puts him ahead of Ness on the unofficial tier list again. Better toruney results + better match-ups (I think?). >_<

Seriously though, I find it funny how the two are right next to one another in the tourney results.

Ness has more potential, but he Isn't getting the results to show it >_> strange...

 

[GreatFalco]

I`m seeing a lot of interpretations about the tier list. But is there any (provisionaly) official tier list right now?

Please if someone can put it I`d be glad.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

We're were debating about an "official" tier list for 855 pages now -_-

 

[Pieisthebest]

We're were debating about an "official" tier list for 855 pages now -_-

^this, but if NSS updates his list with the most recent changes in the tourney rankings than thats pretty close to the official thing at the moment

 

[Browny]

no, that will be pretty close to what people THINK the official one will look like. No one can possibly have an idea what it will look like outside of MK/snake being top tier

 

[Lirok]

no, that will be pretty close to what people THINK the official one will look like. No one can possibly have an idea what it will look like outside of MK/snake being top tier

this is correct.

 

[System Failure 333]

Anyone have any idea how long it'll take until the official Tier List surfaces? Where does it usually first appear?

 

[Lirok]

Anyone have any idea how long it'll take until the official Tier List surfaces? Where does it usually first appear?

its just based on giving the tournament ranking list enough time for every character to have a consistent spot and not be very close to changing. this could take a very long time. it will inevidably happen though. but right now all we can do is look at them in groups. unfortunately beyond MK and snake, things keep changing. and byond 10 it is changing too much to get anything out of it. we might be working on a consisten 3-8 though, most of the characters in that group dont leave.

 

[popsofctown]

its just based on giving the tournament ranking list enough time for every character to have a consistent spot and not be very close to changing. this could take a very long time. it will inevidably happen though. but right now all we can do is look at them in groups. unfortunately beyond MK and snake, things keep changing. and byond 10 it is changing too much to get anything out of it. we might be working on a consisten 3-8 though, most of the characters in that group dont leave.

Omfg, Lucas just practically shot up out of nowhere on the tourney listings.

Ok, this puts him ahead of Ness on the unofficial tier list again. Better toruney results + better match-ups (I think?). >_<

Seriously though, I find it funny how the two are right next to one another in the tourney results.

The way this tier list discussion is going is getting ridiculous!

Ankoku's rankings thread is NOT a tier list! It doesn't say what characters can do, it says what they are doing. It doesn't account for people not playing a character very much y'all! I have a pretty good feeling that Lucas is more played than Ness, Lucas is much simpler and less intricate.

The ways you can cancel out popularity: objective analysis of what the character is capable of, or collecting some data in a way that cancels out popularity as suggested in
this thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185666

You gotta do one or the other. BOTH IS BEST. Otherwise the tier list is practically a headcount.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

The way this tier list discussion is going is getting ridiculous!

Ankoku's rankings thread is NOT a tier list! It doesn't say what characters can do, it says what they are doing. It doesn't account for people not playing a character very much y'all! I have a pretty good feeling that Lucas is more played than Ness, Lucas is much simpler and less intricate.

The ways you can cancel out popularity: objective analysis of what the character is capable of, or collecting some data in a way that cancels out popularity as suggested in
this thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185666

You gotta do one or the other. BOTH IS BEST. Otherwise the tier list is practically a headcount.

From what I know tier list is made from tourney results, but there is one big thing that comes into play such as stages that I really don't get does it really matter what stage a character plays on or what?

Is it skill on any stage or CERTAIN stages???....lolz

 

[Lirok]

The way this tier list discussion is going is getting ridiculous!

Ankoku's rankings thread is NOT a tier list! It doesn't say what characters can do, it says what they are doing. It doesn't account for people not playing a character very much y'all! I have a pretty good feeling that Lucas is more played than Ness, Lucas is much simpler and less intricate.

The ways you can cancel out popularity: objective analysis of what the character is capable of, or collecting some data in a way that cancels out popularity as suggested in
this thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185666

You gotta do one or the other. BOTH IS BEST. Otherwise the tier list is practically a headcount.

after a good year, with thousands of competitive smashers, the tournament rankings should be based on what the characters can do. there is a lot more i can say about this, but i wont. ill agree with most of the people here and say that discussion is rather irrelivant right now.

 

[Trespayne]

I'm gonna re-state a lot of things I said earlier in this thread because people are still talking a lot about it... Tournament rankings should not be taken this much into account on making a tier list. Sure they matter, and should be taken into consideration, but should not be the most important thing, or the only thing, which a lot of people are trying to make it.

My main reasons for saying this are... People could be playing certain characters more because they are more fun, so if a character is being played more they would have better tournament finishes, but also could have a ton of terrible placements that we don't know about either. On the opposite end, let's say Toon Link had only been picked 12 times in a tournament and has these standings (which are accurate to date) (7 top8, 3 top4, 1 top2, 1 win). That would mean not many people are picking him in tournaments but every time he was picked he placed top 8. It doesn't take a lot into account here.

Another reason is that a lot of people could just have some of these characters (like pikachu and TL) as secondaries. So they win a tournament with their Snake or MK. Meanwhile, their secondary character could have been Pikachu or TL and could have achieved nearly the same result if they chose them instead, but chose someone else to be safe. A perfect example of this happening is when I took 2nd with MK and could have achieved the same result with Toon Link.

I'm not gonna say tournament rankings are nothing, but let's please take other things into consideration. Toon Link is certainly not 25th in the game, I would say more like 10-13. So let's wait until we know each characters potential better than we do now to make judgements. There is still plenty of AT's being found out for different characters. And don't let tournament results sell you on how good a character is.

 

[Flandy121]

I agree with Tres. Tournament standings are not the deciding factor. I think the Character match up chart is quite accurate and should also be considered in the official tier list. Don't count me out I'm not a complete ******. I do think tournament standings are important, but as I stated before maybe it should be weighted. Such as Tournament standings count for a certain percent of what the total decision is for the official tier list. I do have a question too, Do the tournament standings take into consideration the amount of times a character was picked and didn't place at all? Because I think that could count as negative points in the standing. Say a MK or Snake was picked and didn't even make top 8 should that be considered?

 

[ROOOOY!]

I agree with Tres. Tournament standings are not the deciding factor. I think the Character match up chart is quite accurate and should also be considered in the official tier list. Don't count me out I'm not a complete ******. I do think tournament standings are important, but as I stated before maybe it should be weighted. Such as Tournament standings count for a certain percent of what the total decision is for the official tier list. I do have a question too, Do the tournament standings take into consideration the amount of times a character was picked and didn't place at all? Because I think that could count as negative points in the standing. Say a MK or Snake was picked and didn't even make top 8 should that be considered?

That list is both outdated and more than half wrong. It should not be taken into consideration whatsoever. I don't main him, but I vouch for the majority of Dedede's match-ups on that thing being wrong.
I'd have to say the most important thing, or one of, is tournament results, there's no better way to measure how a character's doing in the current metagame.
Yes I understand that characters like Toon Link are underplayed, but it's still probably the best way.

And to answer your question, I don't think it is factored in. It would be interesting on the whole Snake/Meta front though, because everyone and their dog is bandwagoning with them. I doubt everyone who plays them at tournies does exceedingly well.

 

[ShadowLink84]

just to put an end to things.

A tier list is made from the following

1.Tournament results (most important)
2. Characters matchups
3.Characters abilities.

It takes all these factors into account not just one singular.
So lets say Sonic is number 1 tournament wise. he may not be #1 tier list wise because of his matchups and abilities.

The tournaments do affect the tier list most but it doesn't dictate all of it. Nor is it necessary for a tier list to follow the tournament results.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Tierwhores are mothing new in SSB. I don't think that failing to rank in a tourney should count. I'm pretty sure, there are enough newbs, who think "lulz i'm gonna use snake 'n pwn 'em all rofl" or BS like that and loose b/v they lack skill

 

[popsofctown]

I agree with Tres. Tournament standings are not the deciding factor. I think the Character match up chart is quite accurate and should also be considered in the official tier list. Don't count me out I'm not a complete ******. I do think tournament standings are important, but as I stated before maybe it should be weighted. Such as Tournament standings count for a certain percent of what the total decision is for the official tier list. I do have a question too, Do the tournament standings take into consideration the amount of times a character was picked and didn't place at all? Because I think that could count as negative points in the standing. Say a MK or Snake was picked and didn't even make top 8 should that be considered?

Yes it should be considered. I personally think you'll see the other way around though. Here in the southeast, we don't have many tier-whores. We have a to some degree, and to a debatable extent, there's soft banning on Snake and MK. So i feel ridiculous when i turned in the results from the last tournament we had, it was
MK
Fox
Snake
G&W
Kirby
Zelda

more or less like that. And that looks like, "ooh cool. See MK isn't as screwed up as people say. Only one in the top 8." There was only one MK in that tournament. Some of us don't like the character, some of us like i said sort of soft ban (the guy who used Snake only used him half the time, he felt bad), but for whatever reason, there was only one MK i saw in that tournament and it beat everyone.

Attitudes toward the game are having a huge impact on tournament results. I don't think the Northeast feels as bad about using MK, and i'm not insulting the Northeast, because that's probably better, you should play to win. But we need to account for this. We also need to account for popular characters and unpopular ones.

Tierwhores are mothing new in SSB. I don't think that failing to rank in a tourney should count. I'm pretty sure, there are enough newbs, who think "lulz i'm gonna use snake 'n pwn 'em all rofl" or BS like that and loose b/v they lack skill

Well, that's one reason Ankoku scales his results based on entry fee. I don't think noobs go and say "lulz, I'm going to drop 15$ to get knocked out first round", that's wasteful.

I still think this thread needs a bump: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185666 it brings up good points. Even if things aren't done that way, something needs to happen to dampen popularity issues.

 

[missingnomaster]

That list is both outdated and more than half wrong. It should not be taken into consideration whatsoever. I don't main him, but I vouch for the majority of Dedede's match-ups on that thing being wrong.
I'd have to say the most important thing, or one of, is tournament results, there's no better way to measure how a character's doing in the current metagame.
Yes I understand that characters like Toon Link are underplayed, but it's still probably the best way.

And to answer your question, I don't think it is factored in. It would be interesting on the whole Snake/Meta front though, because everyone and their dog is bandwagoning with them. I doubt everyone who plays them at tournies does exceedingly well.

They are factored in. Take Samus and Yoshi for example. Yoshi has 7 top 8 and 1 top 4, and Samus has 5 top 8 and 1 top 4, yet Samus is several spots above Yoshi.

Edit: Maybe I missed something. Maybe it was due to entry fee scaling like Popsofctown said

 

[Grunt]

Commmon sense about tourney rankings

Hey shadowlink, all the intelligent posters left a while ago except you.
I suggest you do the same before you get caught in another Yoshi/Sonic/Ivysaur battle.

 

[ROOOOY!]

They are factored in. Take Samus and Yoshi for example. Yoshi has 7 top 8 and 1 top 4, and Samus has 5 top 8 and 1 top 4, yet Samus is several spots above Yoshi.

Edit: Maybe I missed something. Maybe it was due to entry fee scaling like Popsofctown said

Popsofctown is correct. It's done by a formula including how many people attend and the entrance fee.
By your example, it seems that Yoshi has been winning more frequently, but at smaller tournies. Samus has been winning at ones with more entrants, so is above Yoshi despite having less success.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Hey shadowlink, all the intelligent posters left a while ago except you.
I suggest you do the same before you get caught in another Yoshi/Sonic/Ivysaur battle.

shadowlink is not a poster i would call intelligent.

forceful, maybe. but not intelligent.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hey shadowlink, all the intelligent posters left a while ago except you.
I suggest you do the same before you get caught in another Yoshi/Sonic/Ivysaur battle.

True. I should have left a long time ago.

shadowlink is not a poster i would call intelligent.

forceful, maybe. but not intelligent.

And I quote

And who the bloody hell are you!?

Continue lurking please.

 

[Crank]

Based off of IvanEva's matchup chart. Feel free to flame it.

Top

1. Meta Knight
2. Snake

High.

3. Game and Warch
4. Toon Link
5. Falco
6. ROB
7. Pit
8. Marth
9. Olimar

Middle:

10. Zelda
11. Wolf
12. Lucario
13. ZSS
14. Wario
15. Pikachu
16. Ice Climbers
17. Shiek
18. Kirby
19. DK
20. Diddy
21. Fox

Low:

22. Ivysaur
23. Lucas
24. D3
25. Squirtle
26. Link
27. Sonic
28. Ness
29. Peach
30. Mario
31. Luigi
32. Ike
33. Jiggz

Bottom:

34. Charizard
35. Yoshi
36. Samus
37. Bowser
38. Captain Falcon

Ganon
39. Ganon

 

[ROOOOY!]

Please don't base things off that chart. >_<
I mean, the match-up's are so off that Dedede is in low tier.