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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

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hizzlum

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Okay I've updated what I think the tier list is going to have as far as each character is concerned (order does not matter, just the category)

Top:

King Dedede
Lucas
Pit
Olimar
Toon Link
Lucario

High:

Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Diddy Kong
Zero Suit Samus
Meta Knight
Squirtle
Ike
Snake

Middle:


Mario
DK
Link
Yoshi
Kirby
Fox
Pikachu
Luigi
Ness
Peach
Bowser
Sheik
Ice Climbers
Marth
Falco
Wario
Sonic
R.O.B.
Wolf

Low:

Samus
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Ivysaur
Charizard
Did you think this list over after making it? You have top /high-top tier characters like marth, falco, wolf, rob IN THE MIDDLE. Snake G&W and MK are the best in the game right now and you have D3 in the top tier who only has a chain throw and a recovery that is predictable, Lucas is able to be infinite grabbed, which racks up easy damage or gets a free hit, so he is not in the top, no debate about that. Lucario is nothing but mid tier beacuse of the aura ability which is good and bad and a easy edgeguarded recovery. Pit recovery with mindgames is simple to gimp, and has little KO power so he is high tier. You should look at other lists before posting something this inaccurate
 

Dark Sonic

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It's not like it's his main method of killing or anything. Also, Marth's dair in Melee wasn't particularly difficult to avoid in Melee unless it was combo'd into, but knowing that it was a possibility brought that fear factor into play. Most people won't deliberately get grabbed so they can tech and turn the kill around....most will stay away from DK and go toward the middle of the stage. If they try to knock DK off the stage, he can escape, and he'll be in a good position to make an attempt. If a player starts to tech it a lot, you can always start mind-****ing.

As I said, it's not his only kill options.
I was just saying that it's not that good of a kill option to start with. And you won't mindgame any good players with this, because they are teching in response to the throw. If you don't throw, they don't tech. Plain and simple. Kirby will just break out the normal way and jump back up to the stage. No big deal.

Against other characters, yeah Cargo hold can be pretty good. But stage spiking with it isn't too reliable.



And Marth's dair generated no fear factor, as Fair, bair, shieldbreaker, f-smash, d-tilt, and even counter were better options the majority of the time. It's those things people were afraid of, not his stupid dair which he can't survive from unless he jumps before it.
 

DanGR

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anyone else agree that zelda/sheik should have a place in the tier list along w/ them being separated?
 

RushHour1049

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Here's my opinion of the tiers, if "it's too early to tell" is an unacceptable answer.
(Within each tier there is no particular order of strength)

Top:

Ice Climbers (chain grabs)
Olimar (his projectiles and smashes are almost brokenly good...)


High:

Toon Link
Pit
Mr. Game and Watch
Diddy Kong
Zero Suit Samus
Meta Knight
Squirtle
Ike
Snake
Lucas (the only one that can chaingrab him is Marth.)
R.O.B.
Wolf
Marth


Middle:

Zelda (someone this light AND slow couldn't possibly be high tier)
Luigi
Lucario
King Dedede
DK
Link
Yoshi
Kirby
Fox
Pikachu
Ness (he is not bottom, only Marth and PT can chaingrab him.)
Peach
Bowser
Sheik
Falco
Wario
Sonic
Ivysaur
Charizard


Low:

Mario (he just seems so slow and weak this time...)
Samus
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf


Bottom:

None. (After playing all the characters, none of them seemed to be EXTREMELY weak)
 

SwordmasterXXXI

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Okay I've updated what I think the tier list is going to have as far as each character is concerned (order does not matter, just the category)

Top:

King Dedede
Lucas
Pit
Olimar
Toon Link
Lucario

High:

Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Diddy Kong
Zero Suit Samus
Meta Knight
Squirtle
Ike
Snake

Middle:


Mario
DK
Link
Yoshi
Kirby
Fox
Pikachu
Luigi
Ness
Peach
Bowser
Sheik
Ice Climbers
Marth
Falco
Wario
Sonic
R.O.B.
Wolf

Low:

Samus
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Ivysaur
Charizard

Everything except the bottom tier is COMPLETELY wrong. -_-
 

BDawgPHD

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I was just saying that it's not that good of a kill option to start with. And you won't mindgame any good players with this, because they are teching in response to the throw. If you don't throw, they don't tech. Plain and simple. Kirby will just break out the normal way and jump back up to the stage. No big deal.

Against other characters, yeah Cargo hold can be pretty good. But stage spiking with it isn't too reliable.



And Marth's dair generated no fear factor, as Fair, bair, shieldbreaker, f-smash, d-tilt, and even counter were better options the majority of the time. It's those things people were afraid of, not his stupid dair which he can't survive from unless he jumps before it.
I mean you don't have to try to cargo throw into the stage, you can go to cargo throw and just throw them off the stage, or up in the air. Or not even cargo throw....just try to get a grab near the edge to make them think you're doing that, get in 4 cheesy hits, and then dthrow or something. As you said, it's easily techable, but you don't have to use it, especially if the person you're playing can tech it easily enough.

anyone else agree that zelda/sheik should have a place in the tier list along w/ them being separated?
It's not worth it.....some people *might* switch between them in the middle of a match, but then again people might switch between multiple characters over the course of a tournament. It doesn't have the dynamic need to switch between the two of them that PT has. I suppose that someone could take advantage of it somehow, but I doubt it would make a difference.
 

Browny

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^^ at least it would be the case if he even wrote bottom tier...

anyway DK stage spike is far too situational to be worth anything. at least kirbycide can be used while in the air. although DK still ***** pretty hard.

and lol @ people thinking lucario is easy to edgehog. charge up an aura sphere + delay your fall with d-air to make edgehoggers lose invincibility frames + aura sphere stage spike = win
 

SaxDude93

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Here's my opinion of the tiers, if "it's too early to tell" is an unacceptable answer.
(Within each tier there is no particular order of strength)

Top:

Ice Climbers (chain grabs)
Olimar (his projectiles and smashes are almost brokenly good...)


High:

Toon Link
Pit
Mr. Game and Watch
Diddy Kong
Zero Suit Samus
Meta Knight
Squirtle
Ike
Snake
Lucas (the only one that can chaingrab him is Marth.)
R.O.B.
Wolf
Marth


Middle:

Zelda (someone this light AND slow couldn't possibly be high tier)
Luigi
Lucario
King Dedede
DK
Link
Yoshi
Kirby
Fox
Pikachu
Ness (he is not bottom, only Marth and PT can chaingrab him.)
Peach
Bowser
Sheik
Falco
Wario
Sonic
Ivysaur
Charizard


Low:

Mario (he just seems so slow and weak this time...)
Samus
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf


Bottom:

None. (After playing all the characters, none of them seemed to be EXTREMELY weak)
No. Just no. First a of all, Ike is not high tier. NSS has explained that somewhere in the topic. Next, IC's are not top. High, maybe, but not top. Chain-grabs alone don't make a top-tier charcter. Olimar is not Top either. Olimar IS good, but too easily edgehog'd. So are the IC's. Ness>Lucas. Snake, MK, and R.O.B. are all top. Same with Falco and G&W. learn to use the match-ups and tournament data.
 

Dark Sonic

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So, I've been thinking, why isn't Pikachu top? Great Specials, air attacks, Smashes, fast... you name it. What's wrong with Pikachu.
Because there's a bunch of characters that have that. Only they're better at it. Just look at Marth and Metaknight. Amazing specials, air attacks, smashes (for Marth at least), recovery (Metaknight),... you name it. Pikachu just doesn't stick out enough in comparison to Snake, Metaknight, Game and Watch, Falco, Marth, ect.
 

ICANTCOUNT123456

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Because there's a bunch of characters that have that. Only they're better at it. Just look at Marth and Metaknight. Amazing specials, air attacks, smashes (for Marth at least), recovery (Metaknight),... you name it. Pikachu just doesn't stick out enough in comparison to Snake, Metaknight, Game and Watch, Falco, Marth, ect.
Marth and Metaknight don't have projectiles. (Maybe it's me, but I LOVE having a projectile)
 

Shark Week

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"not sticking out" isn't the same as "not being as good"

i don't agree that pikachu is top tier (easily high tier, though), i'm just saying that's not really a valid argument for keeping him out.
 

Browny

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Because there's a bunch of characters that have that. Only they're better at it. Just look at Marth and Metaknight. Amazing specials, air attacks, smashes (for Marth at least), recovery (Metaknight),... you name it. Pikachu just doesn't stick out enough in comparison to Snake, Metaknight, Game and Watch, Falco, Marth, ect.
pikas smashes **** all over everyone there except G&W, and his chain grab is one of the best and easiest to pull off.
 

Hax

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top tier (off the top of my head, might be missing some):
in no order...
snake, falco, dedede, metaknight, rob, toon link, marth, g&w
 

Dark Sonic

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pikas smashes **** all over everyone there except G&W, and his chain grab is one of the best and easiest to pull off.
Pika's down smash is extremely easy to smash DI out of. Pika's f-smash is slow in comparison. Pika's up smash lacks range. Marth on the other hand not only has stronger smashes, but (with the exception of F-smash) they also have better range. Heck his down smash and f-smash even come out faster. On top of that, you can't SDI out of Marth's smashes like you can Pikachu's down smash (which seems to be what everyone keeps pointing at for some reason).



Pika's grab range is not good, and he will not be grabbing the afformentioned characters often because his projectile sucks. Marth can jab it, Metaknight can Jab it, Falco can shine it, and it's still rediculously easy to powershield.

Marth's specials eat Pikachu's for breakfast, with a side B that comes out in 4 frames, does 16-21 damage, refreshes his moves, and can directly out of a dash in either direction. Marth's up B comes out in 5 frames, with him invincible on frames 1-5, reaches the edge faster than any other up B in the game when trying to recover, has great knockback, turns around before slashing now when doing a reverse up B, can be used directly out of shield, and can be done anytime Marth has at least one frame out of hitstun. He can even up B out of rapid Jabs, Pit's side B, Ike's jab combo (this one is impractical because it's really hard, The rest are easy though) and the DDD chaingrab. Marth's shield breaker not only does insane shield damage (as the name implies) but it also has rediculous range, is pretty safe on block, and is extremely powerful when tipped (stronger than a f-smash even). You can also turn around neutral B directly out of a dash, making it easy to space, it's safe if they spotdodge or roll, and it even helps recovery. Down B has a rediculous amount of invincibility frames, lasts forever, great slash range, and now attacks back with the same force as whatever hit it (okay. 10% more).

And that's just Marth. You don't even want to get into Snake's specials.

And in order to be in the top tier, you have to be better than the characters below you. Not only that, but you'd have to be much better than all the characters in high tier. There needs to be a reasonably sized gap between high tier and top tier. Pikachu just doesn't cut it.
 
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Hey, do you think with Snake and Meta completely dominating in Tourneys, that they may be the only 2 really heads and shoulders over the rest. The High Tiers seem really close IMO.

Also, after more analyzation, and tips from Kiwi, This is what my Mock Tier list looks like now.

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch
Marth
Falco

High Tier:
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
King Dedede
Wolf
Olimar
Diddy Kong
Fox
Pit
Wario
Kirby



Mid Tier:
Lucario
Zelda
ZSS
Lucas
Donkey Kong
Luigi

Bowser
Mario

Low tier :
Ness
Sheik
Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Sonic

Bottom Tier:
Peach
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
 

DanGR

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i have to say, that's( ^ ) pretty close. I'd lower wolf and kirby though.(lag of wolf, and bad range of kirby)Lucario and bowser should be raised.(priority of lucario puts him above kirby and maybe wario, and the weight and durability of bowser puts him above say...lucas?) I also wouldn't put snake above the other top tiered characters.(think about the matchups of snake v MK, GaW, and marth) GaW is too light to be 2nd(maybe 4th or 5th? next to snake?) these are just things to think about. Not fact.

you're pretty close though. good job NSS.
 

Sh1n0b1

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I'm sorry but putting Link, Samus, Jigglypuff, and even friggin ganondorf above Captain Falcon is really stupid. Link and Samus may be able to projectile ***** all day but I find their projectiles very easy to avoid. Samus also has poor up finishers so that puts falcon at an advantage because his up finishers are simply better. Link is much slower than falcon. Jigglypuff dies at ridiculously low percents. Ganondorf....is just ganondorf. I'd move Falcon over Link. Otherwise that is a really good list. Every other tier is pretty much perfect IMO.
 

YagamiLight

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I'm sick of noobs coming into this board and other boards complaining about how overpowered this guy is when the player doesn't know how to shield or dodge. It's sad how such an underpowered character gets all this undeserved praise.

Ike is truly the noob killer of brawl. He's so predictable, he's to slow and his recover is garbage. He's got his range and power but all of his good killing moves are also his good damage moves(ftilt bair). This is a serious problem because he's never gonna kill with his fsmash, usmash, dair, dtilt and dsmash. Those moves are simply to slow or/and situational. This is a problem because Ike's ftilt is his best combat move and killer so the damage and knockback reduction rule will affect him greatly.

This also applies to his bair but it's somewhat predictable because he's jumping to accomplish this move. His other aerials are also predictable and easy to avoid because they're not as fast or as strong as his bair. Shield pressuring also doesn't apply to Ike because he's even to slow for that! It's quite sad the way Ike can't chase, combo and edge guard well because he's to slow and most characters can stall easily to counter shield pressuring tactics.

His edge guarding sucks because he has horrible aerial DI and his moves are predictable and will be air dodged. His moves are all mediocre as well. B: to predictable and easy to avoid. B>:predictable as an attack and bad as a recovery move. B^:Spamming doesn't work because you can just shield and grab. When your above him you can simply air dodge. As a recovery move it's atrocious. His counter is the worst counter in the game and is just an overall bad move. Let's face it Ike doesn't even have good grabs because they're all weak and can't combo. Ike has absolutely nothing going for him. No grab game, bad Bmoves, bad recovery and isn't heavy enough to contemplate for it, bad recovery and a surprising amount of trouble killing due to slowness, predictable and damage claus.

PS:His jab combo is decent but easy to grab Ike out of.


yes, it's copypasta
I feel the need to refute the arguments presented here, if only because Ike isn't being given his full credit.

First off, you call him slow, and that's depending on your point of view. He is tied with Squirtle and Kirby for speed after all. Secondly, you call his recovery garbage, when in fact Aether can get him up from the near bottom of FD and he can just use gravity to make him go over there if he's hit hard, though I do concede that Quick Draw is gimpable rather easily. (Do also note that the guy is HEAVY, so as such he won't be being sent flying early in the match.

You then say that his best damaging moves are his kill moves, when ,in fact, his best damaging move is the triple A combo, causing a swift 16% damage upon use. You also forgot to mention the usefulness of his Nair and retreating Fair as damagers (And you can go straight from the Nair to the triple A combo too!). The Up tilt and Side smash are the only moves that you aren't going to be hitting with a lot, and that's debatable as the Up tllt is a high priority "shield" of sorts.

Ike doesn't really have the capabilities to chase someone, I agree, though his dash attack demands merit for it's outstanding range in case you need to pursuit someone. You then claim he has poor Edgeguarding, something the Bair, Fair and B moves disagree with. You can go right next to the edge, hold B down and due to its ridiculous charge time, create a barrier around the edge. The move has super armor as well when let go of the B button, so they can't attack you out of it. I must admit however that Ike can't follow someone off the edge nearly as safely as say, Metaknight can (Though that's a given).

Ike's B moves are not bad, as you say, but merely situational. His regular B gives him and Edgeguard and allows him to descend if knocked up high safely due to super armor. His Side B is good for Spacing and for the occasional long distance recovery. His Up B is a good move if they're directly above you, but should mainly be used for recovery. I don't get why you'd call his counter bad, it clearly adds a mindgame setting of it's own with the ability to give back 1.2x damage. It also stops slow projectile spam.

You argue that he is "predictable". Every character is as predictable as the person using the character chooses to play him. Ike's Grab game isn't good, but his down throw pops them up for 10% and can stop shield abuse.

You're clearly not showing the full range of Ike's capabilities.
 

Shark Week

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Hey, do you think with Snake and Meta completely dominating in Tourneys, that they may be the only 2 really heads and shoulders over the rest. The High Tiers seem really close IMO.

Also, after more analyzation, and tips from Kiwi, This is what my Mock Tier list looks like now.

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch
Marth
Falco

High Tier:
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
King Dedede
Wolf
Olimar
Diddy Kong
Fox
Pit
Wario
Kirby



Mid Tier:
Lucario
Zelda
ZSS
Lucas
Donkey Kong
Luigi

Bowser
Mario

Low tier :
Ness
Sheik
Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Sonic

Bottom Tier:
Peach
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
this one isn't as good as your previous attempts, imo.

ike and pt are both too low (up one tier for both imo). lucas, wario, and kirby are all too high.
 

hizzlum

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Anyone who thinks that Marth has an OK recovery or anything less obviously hasn't went under battlefield and get to the other side, anyone possible of getting to one side of battlefield field to the other by going under the stage has a good Distance recovery (i.e. pit,ROB,Snake, MK, Charizard(bad glide though), jiggly, sonic, wario, luigi, marth, kirby, toon link, link(only by bomb jumping) IC's, earthbounders, D3) are the better half when recovery to the stage.
 

orintemple

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Anyone who thinks that Marth has an OK recovery or anything less obviously hasn't went under battlefield and get to the other side, anyone possible of getting to one side of battlefield field to the other by going under the stage has a good Distance recovery (i.e. pit,ROB,Snake, MK, Charizard(bad glide though), jiggly, sonic, wario, luigi, marth, kirby, toon link, link(only by bomb jumping) IC's, earthbounders, D3) are the better half when recovery to the stage.
Marth can go under battlefield? I need to see this now!
 

Grunt

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...So is it generally accepted that Samus is bottom tier?
My list has her in low mid.
I've revised it BTW so here's my latest generation of tiers.

NEED HELP TESTING:
(Please PM me if you have a good...)
-Peach
-Link
-Lucario
-ROB
-Yoshi

TOP:
Mk
GnW
Snake
Falco

HIGH:
Marth
Toon Link
Diddy
R.O.B
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Pit

MID:
Wolf
Zelda
Olimar
Fox
Zamus
Luigi
Lucario
Dedede
Kirby
Ivy
Ike
Peach
D.K.
Wario
Samus
Squirtle
Yoshi

LOW:
Charizard
Purin
Mario
Sonic
Shiek
Bowser
Link

BOTTOM:
Ganon
Capt.Falcon
Lucas*
Ness*

*Due to the grab thingy, I'm not sure
where to realistically put them. They are NOT bottom, just separated for now.
 

Dormanium

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Mar 23, 2008
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TOP:
Marth
Pit

HIGH:
Fox
Olimar
Pikachu
Wolf
Toon Link
Falco

MIDDLE:
Ivysaur
Luigi
Metaknight
Squirtle
Charizard
Metaknight
Wolf
Falco
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Mario
Sonic
Game and Watch
Donkey Kong
Ike
DeDeDe
Lucario
Ness

LOW:
Lucas
Zamus
Sheik
Ganon
Link
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers


BOTTOM:
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Bowser
Yoshi
Peach
Samus
 

Sinistar

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This is why there tiers really DONT exist.

Characters should be judged on exact moves. Like, tier list of airs, etc.

I really find creating a tierlist for Brawl to be impossible.
 

Kirin

Smash Journeyman
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My list has her in low mid.
I've revised it BTW so here's my latest generation of tiers.

NEED HELP TESTING:
(Please PM me if you have a good...)
-Peach
-Link
-Lucario
-ROB
-Yoshi

TOP:
Mk
GnW
Snake
Falco

HIGH:
Marth
Toon Link
Diddy
R.O.B
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Pit

MID:
Wolf
Zelda
Olimar
Fox
Zamus
Luigi
Lucario
Dedede
Kirby
Ivy
Ike
Peach
D.K.
Wario
Samus
Squirtle
Yoshi

LOW:
Charizard
Purin
Mario
Sonic
Shiek
Bowser
Link

BOTTOM:
Ganon
Capt.Falcon
Lucas*
Ness*

*Due to the grab thingy, I'm not sure
where to realistically put them. They are NOT bottom, just separated for now.
This looks pretty close to what I think of the tiers atm. Lucas I would put Mid and Ness Low.
 

Grunt

Smash Master
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Messages
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TOP:
Marth
Pit

HIGH:
Fox
Olimar
Pikachu
Wolf
Toon Link
Falco

MIDDLE:
Ivysaur
Luigi
Metaknight
Squirtle
Charizard
Metaknight
Wolf
Falco
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Mario
Sonic
Game and Watch
Donkey Kong
Ike
DeDeDe
Lucario
Ness

LOW:
Lucas
Zamus
Sheik
Ganon
Link
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers


BOTTOM:
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Bowser
Yoshi
Peach
Samus
Ooh boy where do i start...this is like the April fools tier list from melee. >.>
I cant even say "X should be lower than Y" when Y is on bottom tier for no explanation, and X is Top!
L2P then make a list.
 

SquallLion90

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
10
Here's what I think the list is going to be:

TOP TiER:

Falco
Toon Link
Snake
Metaknight

HIGH TiER:

Marth
Diddy Kong
Fox
Peach
Wolf
Mr. Game and Watch
Pit
R.O.B
Olimar
King DeDeDe

MIDDLE TiER:

Kirby
Donkey Kong
Mario
Luigi
Zelda / Sheik
Sonic
Lucario
Ike
Ness
Link
Lucas
Pikachu
Wario
Zero Suit Samus
Squirtle
Yoshi
Ice Climbers

LOW TiER:

Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Charizard
Ivysaur

BOTTOM TiER:

Bowser
Ganondorf
 
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