Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Nigerian Star Storm]

i swear to god, if i were given the chance, i'd strangle every person who keeps splitting up the pokemon trainer. IT'S ONE ****ING CHARACTER YOU STUPID SLUTS.

FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE AGREES WITH ME

 

[Gindler]

True, yoshi's shield gives him little options. He can't be shield poked though which I enjoy, so I usually try to just powershield or spot dodge to avoid being hit, or I go for constant pressure and just take hits in the process (a lil' too aggressive for most but catches people off guard)

and as for the pokemon trainer. NO KIDDING, people seem to rank squirtle ivysaur and charizard differently when they are meant to complement eachothers strengths and weaknesses, but most people tend to "main" one of the 3, but yeah they are easily one character and everyone is uber stupid about that.

 

[St. Viers]

^^I agree too, but imo they should be ranked separately, and then as PT

 

[Corner-Trap]

I see your point, as bdawg was exaggerating a bit, but bowser still has good amtchups in general against people without projectiles, and people with unspammable one. Also, I AM saying you are wrong about his camping, ground games. his ground game should be undeniably excellent, and his camping is again above par. They aren't little tricks that make him decent. They are extra options that most people don't have, which make him *better* at them than others. That's like saying projectile camping is a little trick to make someone decent at camping, or saying that using auto-cancel aerials is a trick to make marth, MK better at approaching. it's kinda true, but put in a way to OBVIOUSLY belittle it.

Camping is meant to force an approach from the opponent while keeping them out. Bowser has nothing to force players to come towards him. When you compare his camping to characters like Snake, TL, Wolf, Falco, Pit, etc. how can you possibly say it's above par? I still don't see how you consider his ground game "good", I consider it either average or a little below that. Smashes come out to slow and are easily punished OOS, main thing he has going for him is Ftilt and many characters have similar or better attacks than that.

I'd say that yoshi's lack of a defensive game is his biggest problem. One of my friends, who seems to have natural talent for the game (plays ROB, DK, and various others) has picked him up for the taunts (where's my tail...where... there it is does well with him, when he can be on the offenstive, due to the previously mentioned reasons. However, whenever the flow of the fight shifts, he gets screwed, because he's really vunerable in the shield

@ corner trap:
Not advantage, just a surprisingly good matchup. Like the mew2 having a few tricks on fox, even though the matchup was heavily in fox's favor. This would be the tricks you accused him of having

vs Olimar:
Bowser is good at getting people off the edge, even if not so good keeping them there. because of Olimar's bad recovery bowser can mess up Olimar quickly sometimes. Also, Bowser eats pikmin for breakfast. Still definitely olimar's favor though.

vs Marth:
Again, just does suprisingly well, thanks to his ground game being better than marth's. Also, he can gimp marth's using his B downwards over the ledge.

vs Fox: he just goes even, thanks to lasers not being as bad as most projectiles, plus outranges him. Have to watch out for his speed, but as fox's throws got nerfed, it isn't so bad.

Honestly, when I said suprising, I meant not as bad as one would think, when looking at his other similar matchups. Not that booser had advantage


Anywho, re: DDD, luigi, and kirby, DK:

DK could be 6/4, because of his grotesquely better air game, but bowser does well against him, ime (in my experience)

DDD is too slow, though his spam game makes it interesting, I'd still say even

Luigi: I don't have much experience, would be interested in your reasoning here.

Nice being able to talk to people intelligently!

vs. Olimar
Every character can throw Olimar off the stage and gimp his recovery by ledge hogging. So saying that Bowser does well against Olimar because he can do something that literally every character can do doesn't mean much. But yeah, still in Olimar's favor.

vs. Marth
How is Bowsers ground game better than Marth's? Marth's attacks have more speed, range, priority, and they're disjointed. Also Marth's UpB has invincible startup, so I doubt you're going to gimp his recovery.

vs. Fox
As I said before, I think this match could possibly be even, so I agree with you.

vs. DK
Yeah I think DK has the advantage because of the better air game, and reach advantage.

vs. DDD
I don't see how this could even be considered even. DDD can infinite grab Bowser without even needing a wall. Add that along with the fact that Bowser's attacks are laggy, and that DDD has monstrous grab range, you can be assured you'll at least get grabbed once and lose a stock. Also DDD just out does him in a lot of areas especially in recovery and edgeguarding.

vs. Luigi
Luigi basically out does Bowser in every area. This includes approach, camping, air game, recovery, edgeguarding and most notably KO's.

 

[Corigames]

Gindler, no one cares about Yoshi.

Stop quoting ever single post to talk about Yoshi. It doesn't make him better or you smarter.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Reposting <_<

Hello guys, This isn't the Normal Nigerian Star Storm, I'm the guy who he originally posted a Tier list from. For the past couple of weeks I've been trying to formulate a Tier list so good on Gamefaqs that almost everyone agrees with, and therefore would stop making *** Tier lists daliy. I believe I'm getting relatively close, and I wanted to repost it here to see where it needs improvements.

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/gen...topic=42684552

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Falco
R.O.B.
Marth
Toon Link

High Tier:
Mr. Game and Watch
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Pit
Wolf
Fox
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Ness
Lucas
King Dedede

Mid Tier:
Lucario
Pokemon Trainer
Sheik
Luigi
Wario
Kirby
Mario
Bowser
Donkey Kong
lke

Low tier :
Peach
Sonic
Yoshi
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

Please comment on this, and also, can I have breakdown on G-Dorf, Ike, maybe a small one on DDD and Zelda? I think I have a good idea on these characters, and I just wanted to get more input

 

[Deleted member]

PT should be split up. Each one has different matchups and thus needs to be split up. U cant switch easily whenever u want. Its liek zelda/shiek in melee.

Anyways, yoshi is probably a mid tier character. I'm now convinced his grab game is the best in the game. He has plenty of good matchups, good combo-ablility, a great projectile (if u dont think so uve never played a good defensive yoshi who knows his basic egg techs), He has good priority (great on some moves, decent on others), and he is good at edgeguarding.
Dont say hes easy to edgeguard from facts if uve never played a yoshi. He can just airdodge your attempts or attack u in the middle of his jump, or cancel it with a egg toss at the edge and Edge canceled egg u into oblivion. Ill do some more later.
Also bowser is probably mid tier as well, with his huge priority, range and teh ph1r3z
Also what is so great about zamus. Never played a good one so i dont know how she fairs. I know that her side b is awesome but thats it.

 

[Corigames]

I've played good Yoshis. I've seen good Yoshis. Yet, a good Yoshi is stilll just a good Yoshi.

It's not my fault if Nintendo has this vendetta against Yoshi being good in a smash game.

 

[St. Viers]

no, camping is just staying in one place...if you are a life up, then camping is forcing them to come to you or lose... You are looking at a narrow application/definition of camping.

Also, above par means better than average, not the best. TL, wolf, and snake are the best. I'm saying he outcamps other people without a projectile, and characters like pikachu, mario, luigi, who have easily swiped projectiles.

re: his ground game.
I disagree, I think that few people have a better ground game than bowser. His jabs are fast, and strong, and his f-tilt is one of the best moves like it. His up-air is fast, and hits behind him. His d-tilt spaces, comes out quickly, and can kill at higher percents. His smashes are relatively slow, but ideal for punishing lag/roll/dodge/missed attack.

Also, if you don't count his shield game under camping, it applies here. He can fortress out to punish quick attacks, and smash or side B out to punish laggier attacks.

Re: Olimar. I'm saying that olimar's weight, coupled w/ his recovery is directly countered by bowsers ability for low damage knockback, without having excellent edge-guarding. These factors are almost perfect for bowser, even though in actuallity olimar still takes this match hands down.

Re DDD: Maybe I'm just naturally good againt DDD? I'll have to play more of them when I have a chance

Re Luigi: Luigi's too light, and his limbs too short. His fireball isn't spammable, meaning you can't camp with it. His approaches are better, but bowsers up-air/up-angled f-tilt beat it out. His recovery is better, but still not great. The Tornado is useful, but also can't sweetspot, and has a bit of ending lag. the torpedo isn't scary unless it's a misfire--bowser can f-air him out of it otherwise. His landing lag from the upB is also too much...bowser can grab the edge and then punish the landing lag.

I'm not saying bowser owns luigi, but it's definitely pretty even...

Re Marth: his jabs are quicker than marths, and about the same range. His f-tilt is LONGER THAN MARTH'S. Although any good marth would be spacing aerials, I'm pointing out that his ground game isn't good. All marths ground game is good for it pressure by grabs, and then smashing for kills. He can't space with it.

anywho, the recovery gimping. It's a technique booser players call "PoF". Pretty much you can angle his flames to reach below the stage. Marth won't be auto sweetspotting, and if they aren't careful they will get caught under a bunch of stages. It's like a Kiby Deadly Death Technique, it works, even though it shouldn't.

Pretty much you are underestimating his ground game tremendously. His range is insane, his tilts are quick, and he can punish well. His OOS game is worse than in melee, but still good.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Yoshi DOES NOT have the best grabs in this game. Stop being biased. ICs beat the **** out of any other character's Grabs. Also great priority? Yoshi's eggs have some of the WORST prioity in the game for a projectile and the priority on others is not that great at all. And aside from just chucking eggs off the side, how exactly can he edgeguard well? I mean his aerial game is ok, and his shield completely protects him from all sides, but that said, he's a pretty bad character overall. Plus you also have to consider that his matchups are bad, he isn't doing well in tourneys, and he just doesn't seem to have much Metagame potential (Altough when a dedicated pro mains him that may change) I doubt he's even Mid Tir material at this point.

 

[BDawgPHD]

I agree with St. Viers on the idea that PT should be ranked as a whole and as 3 pokemon.

I say this because each of the pokemon have their strong and weak points that make them solid as a single character....Charizard has it up on a bunch of characters, so tiering him up is probably a smooth move.

On the other hand, If Charizard is beastly, but Squirtle and Ivysaur suck, then there's no way to get back to Charizard efficiently, making PT as a whole a really ****ty character......on the flip side of PT's aptitude, if Ivysaur is good at camping/racking and Charizard is beastly in killing, or Charizard is good at pounding a guy's **** in and Squirtle is good at finishing, and some BS for Squirle and Ivysaur, then PT is an absolute beast, as long as you can keep the enemy at bay long enough to swap safely.

 

[-Kagato-]

I prefer not to get into the pro-Bowser vs anti-Bowser arguments here because I can go into extensive arguments for BOTH sides of the coin, seeing as how Bowser is my main.

To those against Bowser: Bowser isn't nearly as bad as you think.
To those for Bowser: Bowser isn't nearly as good as you think.

My opinion? Bowser is pretty good, but any decent person who's used to fighting a Bowser can get around his attacks. Bowser is NOT bottom tier, but being High or Top tier is pushing it. The Japanese may think Bowser is high up on the list, but I think Low-Mid or High-Low suits Bowser just fine.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

PT should be split up. Each one has different matchups and thus needs to be split up. U cant switch easily whenever u want. Its liek zelda/shiek in melee.

it's not anything like zelda/sheik. you're an idiot. go kill yourself. the individual pokemon don't have matchups because of the fatigue system. take your stupid and go somewhere else. this **** is getting old.

 

[Teebs]

May I ask how ROB is a top tier?

 

[Kiwikomix]

The PT needs to be treated as one character. His ability to counter other characters depends on his ability to switch characters. This is unlike Zelda and Shiek because PT is actually required to switch Pokemon every now and then, where a Zelda/Shiek can just stay that same character. You can't list a character singularly if you can't constantly play as that character.

 

[St. Viers]

I prefer not to get into the pro-Bowser vs anti-Bowser arguments here because I can go into extensive arguments for BOTH sides of the coin, seeing as how Bowser is my main.

To those against Bowser: Bowser isn't nearly as bad as you think.
To those for Bowser: Bowser isn't nearly as good as you think.

My opinion? Bowser is pretty good, but any decent person who's used to fighting a Bowser can get around his attacks. Bowser is NOT bottom tier, but being High or Top tier is pushing it. The Japanese may think Bowser is high up on the list, but I think Low-Mid or High-Low suits Bowser just fine.

lol, if you notice, there is not pro/anti bowser argument. We both say he's mid-tier at best. We're discussing matchups, as I have more practical bowser knowledge, and he has more brawl experience in general

 

[BDawgPHD]

The PT needs to be treated as one character. His ability to counter other characters depends on his ability to switch characters. This is unlike Zelda and Shiek because PT is actually required to switch Pokemon every now and then, where a Zelda/Shiek can just stay that same character. You can't list a character singularly if you can't constantly play as that character.

That's a lie. Read my post above on my CORRECT view of how pokemon trainer should be listed

EDIT: by above, i mean on page 241

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

BTW Vulgar.


Coppell>Flower Mound >_>

 

[Phazon_Dude]

I personally think that Samus should be at least mid, ROB shouldn't be top and Link should be bottom... but I've based this half of what the people say and half off logic/my opinion.

Also, does Falco counter Snake?

TOP
Snake
Meta-Knight
Marth
Pit
Falco
Wolf
Toon Link

___

HIGH
R.O.B
Fox
Diddy Kong
Mr.Game and Watch
Olimar
Pikachu
King Dedede
Lucas
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus

___

MID
Ike
Luigi
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Mario
Ness
Samus
Kirby
Pokemon Trainer

___

LOW
Captain Falcon
Sonic
Peach
Sheik
Wario
Jigglypuff
Link
DK
Bowser

___

BOTTOM
Ganondorf
Yoshi

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Flo
Mo
Fo
Sho

 

[sHy)(gUy]

im making another tier list

top

toon link
r.o.b
snake
metaknight

high

g&w
marth
falco
pit
diddy
ike
olimar
wolf
lucas
dedede
pikachu
zelda

mid

ice climbers
fox
shiek
luigi
ness
zamus
kirby
peach

low

DK
pokemon trainer
samus
mario
link
sonic
wario
bowser

bottom

gannondorf
jigglypuff
yoshi
capt falcon

comments?

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

it's bad.

don't update us again.

 

[Gindler]

Let me start off by quoting Lord Kagato but slightly modified.
Non-yoshi mains: Yoshi isn't quite as bad as you think.
Yoshi mains (that includes me): He does have strengths but backed up with a number of weaknesses.
Alright, now that I got that out there...

Whoever said yoshi's grabs are the best is insane (best pivot grabs though but most characters don't have to do this), Ness's maybe the best, most likely oli though. Just saying either yoshi isn't bottom bottom (at least low tier) or the tiers don't matter as much in brawl as they did in melee (which I think is the case)

and everyone congrats on making pokemon trainer one character now, not that I use him but it truly was an injustice.

Here's my tier list. and no it's not biased this is just my logic and educated opinion. Alot like most others with a few mods.

top

snake
Metaknight
Toon Link
ROB
G&W

high

marth
falco
diddy
pit
olimar
wolf
lucas
fox
dedede
pikachu
ike
zelda

mid

kirby
ness
ice climbers
shiek
luigi
zamus
pokemon trainer
peach
Boswer

low

DK
Yoshi
samus
wario
mario
link
sonic

bottom

gannondorf
jigglypuff
capt falcon


Oh, and yes tiers don't matter nearly as much as they did in melee. Back then the best kirby/yoshi/pichu could almost never beat a fox/falco with half a brain. Now a C. Falcon master can beat a snake master, so its easily more about skill than anything else.

 

[REDFIELD246]

Is this thread just here to humor the non Backroomers? Seems like they do most/all of the deciding, as they should; half of the posts here aren't given a second's thought as they're being typed.

 

[Furbs]

Gindler, no one cares about Yoshi.

Stop quoting ever single post to talk about Yoshi. It doesn't make him better or you smarter.

it's a tier discussion dumb***, add something useful to it

and it's every, not ever

jk i <3 u

also SBR probably doesn't look at this lol.

 

[Sensai]

REDFIELD246: This thread is here so that there won't be a million threads about it.

Can we get some serious tier discussion as opposed to simply putting forth a tier list? For example, why is it that everyone believes Snake is so high up there?

 

[Corigames]

Ok, here's something useful.

NONE OF YOUR WORTHLESS TIERS MATTER!!!

None of you have traveled the country playing the best face-to-face in competition. None of you have played the best players for each character. None of you have any experience with big tournament play. If you did, you would be in the back room now making lists for real. Everything else here is just you crying about how one person ***** you so you put them at the top. People don't play certain characters, so you put them at the bottom.

What else is there to do? How can you make a tier list for a game that hasn't held a major tournament yet? Especially a tournament with big names, large numbers of people, and at a national level. It shouldn't be attempted.

So if it were any use, I'd say end the discussion now and wait until AFTER a big tournament provides us with good data to base a tier list off of. Otherwise, you are just basing the entire community's character potential off of the people around you, locally.

So please, n00bs, shut-up. I've contributed more by saying Yoshi is bad than your 1/2 page list of characters in random order to make yourself look like you have an internet ****. So, please, if you want to continue to crap out more useless tier lists, go right ahead. Just know that it really doesn't matter because, right now, they all suck and are based on the wrong reasons.

 

[sHy)(gUy]

it's bad.

don't update us again.

bad my ***, better than ur wothless excuse for a tier list.

**** 2008 noob

 

[sHy)(gUy]

Let me start off by quoting Lord Kagato but slightly modified.
Non-yoshi mains: Yoshi isn't quite as bad as you think.
Yoshi mains (that includes me): He does have strengths but backed up with a number of weaknesses.
Alright, now that I got that out there...

Whoever said yoshi's grabs are the best is insane (best pivot grabs though but most characters don't have to do this), Ness's maybe the best, most likely oli though. Just saying either yoshi isn't bottom bottom (at least low tier) or the tiers don't matter as much in brawl as they did in melee (which I think is the case)

and everyone congrats on making pokemon trainer one character now, not that I use him but it truly was an injustice.

Here's my tier list. and no it's not biased this is just my logic and educated opinion. Alot like most others with a few mods.

top

snake
Metaknight
Toon Link
ROB
G&W

high

marth
falco
diddy
pit
olimar
wolf
lucas
fox
dedede
pikachu
ike
zelda

mid

kirby
ness
ice climbers
shiek
luigi
zamus
pokemon trainer
peach
Boswer

low

DK
Yoshi
samus
wario
mario
link
sonic

bottom

gannondorf
jigglypuff
capt falcon


Oh, and yes tiers don't matter nearly as much as they did in melee. Back then the best kirby/yoshi/pichu could almost never beat a fox/falco with half a brain. Now a C. Falcon master can beat a snake master, so its easily more about skill than anything else.

lol, i just realized i forgot lucario, who is also absent from ur list. u wouldnt by any chance be copying my list would u? its ok my list is pro

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

lol @ the censor bypass.

 

[WaffleJesse]

Umm, what makes Ganon so bad, why is he ALWAYS in bottom tier?

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Yoshi is honestly a great candidate for mid.

His air game isn't decent its amazing! he has nearly no landing lag on all of his attacks, Uair is an incredibly good K.O. move for yoshi and is disjointed, nair is awesome for edge guarding and only gets better when used with his double jump, Bair has incredible range, is disjointed, combos, and can go towards a f-tilt/jab combo with little to no lag, and fair is a spike and even if you dont spike has a lot of knockback so you can KO off the side (not from stage from air of course :D). the only move i don't find myself using in the air is his Dair, its not a bad attack.....its just very situational, and tricky, but it does around 20-40 damage, and can be linked to a d-smash/tilt.

I do agree though that his ground game isn't fantastic, it is average. not saying it's bad, his smashes are fast, and all but they don't have a lot of power to them :/, they can kill, its just a pain sometimes because they usually KO at 130-160. his tilts are great though, disjointed, plenty of range, and can lead to other attacks. he actually does have a lot of options for approaching, and his eggroll is actually a good move. also his eggs are good for edgeguarding, and pressuring

His grabs are decent, but you'll want to use pivot grabs more than regular grabs because of startup lag. I've found that yoshi can actually "chain grab" a few characters (metaknight and sonic to name a few) but it's not that effective because he can't chain grab across the stage like a certain pair of birds can >.>, and its not too hard to get out of.

the major thing that kills me when i play as him is his defensive game. he has a very durable shield that doesn't shrink, but at the same time he cant really punish out of his shield. which really does hold him back.

also as for predictable recovery, up-b doesn't take your second jump so you can use it to stall, and the use the super armor frames on his second jump. plus if your opponent is above you as you recover you can still double jump-air dodge and gain full distance.

lolz whats up furbs yoshi dittos will happen i been practising just for you!
don't waste your time here. lolz i put yoshi mid on my list.

 

[hizzlum]

Rob is not top tier, if you have good mind games you can easily gimp his recovery by not letting him land beacuse it needs to charge for 2 seconds. Also his KO moves have quite a bit of lag and his is on the slower side of the scale

 

[PIMPSLAP]

May I ask how ROB is a top tier?

Best recovery in the game. D-smash Eats shield god priority and knock backs.
2 of the best projectiles in the game and edge guarding master. i might be biased though (even though i used him twice ever)
My friend axxo uses him and it's annoying but effective when you master rob ask furbs...
my bad i messed up he's HIGH TIER not top.

 

[Deleted member]

When i said yoshi had the best grab game, i meant grabs, not throws. I would call waht ICs do their throws. Yoshi's GRABS are imo the best, His throws are decent at best, they dont set up for much.Sorry for the miscommunication. And no i dont think he is a good character, but bottom my ***.

 

[hizzlum]

Best recovery in the game.

Not the best recovery in the game, metaknight can glide forever if you know how to use his glide and then b up. ROB has a good recovery thats better than pit(cuz rob can WoP and stall and stuff) but not MK

 

[PIMPSLAP]

i would say best recovery because it's incredibly hard to punish i mean hard. so he should get recovery up'ed 2 max and yeah i know about MK infinite glide but thats punishible

 

[Illussionary]

I'm gonna end this debate and just say R.O.B. = Top Tier. End of Story.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Top tier lucas? His recovery is too gimpable (not as much as ness but still pretty easy) but I'd but him in the lower of the high tier.

Oh and may I ask why you put yoshi in bottom tier? the other bottoms I agree cause of their nerfs but yoshi's been pretty buffed in terms of comboing and edgeguardging.

How do you gimp the Zap jump, may I ask? Or even better, how do you gimp the zap jump PSI magnet gliding trick, which can take him over the entire stage?

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

When i said yoshi had the best grab game, i meant grabs, not throws. I would call waht ICs do their throws. Yoshi's GRABS are imo the best, His throws are decent at best, they dont set up for much.Sorry for the miscommunication. And no i dont think he is a good character, but bottom my ***.

But Yoshi's grab is slower than Lucas's grab to start up, and has about the same range...

IF anyone has the best grab in the game, it's Olimar. No lag, no startup time. Wow.