Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[salaboB]

How isn't Bowser much when he's really good at approaching, spacing, and killing?

Bowser improved by a LOT. IMO he's seriously in a similar league with Pikachu, Luigi, and Zelda.

A great improvement over terrible still doesn't mean he's great. I've not seen him perform anywhere better than mid-tier.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Your personal experience doesn't mean anything.

Unless you have actual reasons why somehow every character can get around Bowser's amazing traits.

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

TOP
===
toon link
Marth
Olimar

HIGH
===
Snake
Game and Watch
wolf
falco
Lucas
R.O.B
Meta Knight
Luigi

High-Mid
=====
Kirby
Zelda
Dedede
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
fox
DK
Lucario
Samus
MID
===

pikachu
Zamus
Mario
Pit
Ness
Link
bowser
Sheik

Mid-Low
=====
Wario
Yoshie
Jigglypuff

LOW
===
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

SONIC
===
Sonic

The last person forgot snake
More accurate :D

 

[hizzlum]

"bowser is terrible.

SERIOUSLY terrible.

If you think otherwise you don't know anything about this game at all." --gimpyfish
I think he is right on this one, being the best bowser player

 

[hizzlum]

TOP
===
toon link
Marth
Olimar

HIGH
===
Snake
Game and Watch
wolf
falco
Lucas
R.O.B
Meta Knight
Luigi

High-Mid
=====
Kirby
Zelda
Dedede
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
fox
DK
Lucario
Samus
MID
===

pikachu
Zamus
Mario
Pit
Ness
Link
bowser
Sheik

Mid-Low
=====
Wario
Yoshie
Jigglypuff

LOW
===
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

SONIC
===
Sonic

The last person forgot snake
More accurate :D

LOL AT THE SONIC TIER! I don't think capt. falcon is worse than ganon and olimar should not be top tier rather high

 

[A2ZOMG]

"bowser is terrible.

SERIOUSLY terrible.

If you think otherwise you don't know anything about this game at all." --gimpyfish
I think he is right on this one, being the best bowser player

Don't just listen to good players just because they say crap. Gimpyfish isn't perfect, and he's completely wrong here. He also said that a LONG time ago.

Bowser is much better than he's giving him credit for. If you can refute the reasons I have posted, then yes, Bowser is terrible. But no, that probably won't happen because BOWSER DOES NOT SUCK. ><

LOL AT THE SONIC TIER! I don't think capt. falcon is worse than ganon and olimar should not be top tier rather high

And no, Captain Falcon is worse than Ganondorf. Falcon can't approach, and he can't kill. Ganondorf at least can approach, combo, and kill.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

And no, Captain Falcon is worse than Ganondorf. Falcon can't approach, and he can't kill. Ganondorf at least can approach, combo, and kill.

Comboes dun exits.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Corner-Trap]

Read the above poster Cornet-trap....He has some good Bowser Points.
the infinite Jump, when used wisely, can be pretty destructive.

I did read the above post while making my post. I'm simply stating that I think Bowser will still remain low tier even with those improvements. He may have received a few buffs here and there, but he still lacks what truly pushes characters up tier lists, as in good match-ups.

How isn't Bowser much when he's really good at approaching, spacing, and killing?

Bowser improved by a LOT. IMO he's seriously in a similar league with Pikachu, Luigi, and Zelda.

What league are you referring to? Those characters are on a different level than Bowser is in all regards.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You're completely delusional. COMBOS exist in Brawl. They are just extremely rare.

Ganondorf can comb out of his Forward B ftw.

@Cornertrap. Then where are the weaknesses to Bowser? What are characters supposed to do when he can approach with a Forward B, jump if they spot dodge, then weave back in for a Forward B? Also he outranges these characters by a lot, and his kill strength is really good.

 

[hizzlum]

that qoute from gimpy was from his youtube account flaming a noob today

 

[A2ZOMG]

Eh whatever. But srsly, Bowser is good. I don't listen to crap unless someone can back it up reasonably.

At this point the best Bowser player is Kagato. Bow to him. Now.

 

[Seraphie]

I'd have to agree, I think Bowser got buffed from Melee. Certainly not to the degree of, say, Ness, but definitely an improvement.

Peach, however, seems mid-tier at the highest. Shame, she was such a great character in Melee, it saddens me to realize how horribly nerfed she was. For god's sake, her second jump is practically non-existant. ;-;

 

[salaboB]

Your personal experience doesn't mean anything.

Unless you have actual reasons why somehow every character can get around Bowser's amazing traits.

Bowser is laggy to get into the air, infinite jump notwithstanding. His aerials don't have incredible range and are fairly limited for attacking ground based targets, so being able to bounce around in the air is very limited. His flying fortress now makes him bounce on landing if he does it from even a moderate distance above the ground, limiting his horizontal escape capability in the air if he ever has a need to get away from something (I've had this mostly impact my recovery game when coming in above someone guarding for me).

For non-aerial related issues, his flamethrower doesn't give him a way to deal with anyone who is spamming projectiles at him, and his size can make it difficult to get clear of a lot of those projectiles. While his ground attacks have good priority and reach, they also are not as fast as many character's attacks and since they're not disjointed if someone spaces just outside of Bowser's reach he can be easily punished. As well, his strongest smash attacks (forward and up) are relatively slow and most people will be able to avoid getting caught by them once they figure out that the forward smash reaches further than it seems like it should.

Sure he's better than he had been, but I don't see his drawbacks as allowing him to be high tier at all.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

No one still hasn't responded to my list -_-.

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

No one still hasn't responded to my list -_-.

cuz mine was funnier and truer

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

cuz mine was funnier and truer

however, feel free to argue why yours is better

 

[MiraiGen]

Comboes dun exits.

I lol'd.

Sure he's better than he had been, but I don't see his drawbacks as allowing him to be high tier at all.

I can agree with this on the grounds that Bowser isn't terrible because the changes have given him more room to breathe as far as fighting goes.

However, it also gave everyone else more room to breathe too, so the bar has been raised and Bowser's still pretty low.

He's not bad, but I mean I've seen people win Melee matches with Roy. Mind you, not very many, but it's happened.

 

[Undrdog]

I got nothing better to do anyway...


Top 3
====
Falco
Ice Climbers
Metaknight


High 7
====
Marth
Snake
Toon Link
Game and Watch
Pit
Wolf
Fox


Mid 20
====
Diddy
Pikachu
Ike
Olimar
Peach
Zelda
DeDeDe
ZSS
Lucas
R.O.B
DK
Samus
Wario
Lucario
Luigi
Sonic
Ness
Squirtle
Sheik
Jiggs


Low 6
====
Kirby
Bowser
Ivysaur
Mario
Link
C. Falcon


Bottom 3
====
Gannondorf
Yoshi
Charizard



Just as a side note, my focus was mainly on the Top 10 and Bottom 9. The middle...? Bleh, I tried to keep it reasonable.

 

[Browny]

i agree with charizard for bottom of the bottom tier

that is all

 

[MiraiGen]

Ice Climbers? Seriously?

 

[Conda]

Ice climbers are awesome. Check out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BOKsPlIHG0

 

[MiraiGen]

Um, wow.

Post length restriction has forced me to type more, but seriously.

Wow.

 

[FmAiGkGeO]

I don't see why Charizard is low of low. Most of that I can agree with though. The ice climbers stuff is crazy. I still haven't seen a good toon link though. I see some people play them, but it's really not a tournament winner. It's usually a top eight person I see playing toon.

 

[St. Viers]

I actually Like that tier list. 0_o good job. I was suprised you put IC that high, and maybe falco and Snake should switch, but I like.

note: IC aren't more broken than melee, it's just easier to be broken with them

 

[Corner-Trap]

Actually it's harder to play the IC's now than in Melee. Wobbling was so much easier than alternating throws, but at least they still have infinites.

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

TOP
===
toon link
Marth
Olimar

HIGH
===
Snake
Game and Watch
wolf
falco
Lucas
R.O.B
Meta Knight
Luigi

High-Mid
=====
Kirby
Zelda
Dedede
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
fox
DK
Lucario
Samus
MID
===

pikachu
Zamus
Mario
Pit
Ness
Link
bowser
Sheik

Mid-Low
=====
Wario
Yoshie
Jigglypuff

LOW
===
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

SONIC
===
Sonic

The last person forgot snake
More accurate :D

I agree with most of this except the placement of Sonic. Seriously, wtf? -_-

 

[rubiksfriend]

Marth for top tier, smaller second tier, combine the two top tiers, and is the Cap. really that bad?

 

[BDawgPHD]

BOTTOM LINE.......

Bowser is high tier. He can get gimped by a character or two in the top tier and by one or two in the high tier (Falco comes to mind, anyone with a spike or combo into footstool/spike can gimp him), and that keeps him out of top tier, but he's incredibly beastly, for all the reasons A2ZOMG said. If anyone says Bowser sucks, they're gonna have to play my Bowser and get owned.










YOU HAVE READ PAST THE END OF THE POST.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I've made quite a few changes to my rankings list after last time.

Note: Characters aren't sorted in any particular order in their category.

--------------------
Top Rank

Fox
Marth
Falco
Meta Knight
Toon Link
Wolf
--------------------
High Rank

Samus
Peach
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Olimar
Solid Snake
--------------------
Middle Rank

Mario
Donkey Kong
Link
Yoshi
Kirby
Ness
Pikachu
Luigi
Jigglypuff
Bowser
Sheik
Mr. G&W
Ganondorf
Wario
Ike
Ivysaur
Charizard
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Lucario
R.O.B.
Sonic
--------------------
Low Rank

Captain Falcon
Squirtle
--------------------

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser is laggy to get into the air, infinite jump notwithstanding. His aerials don't have incredible range and are fairly limited for attacking ground based targets, so being able to bounce around in the air is very limited. His flying fortress now makes him bounce on landing if he does it from even a moderate distance above the ground, limiting his horizontal escape capability in the air if he ever has a need to get away from something (I've had this mostly impact my recovery game when coming in above someone guarding for me).

His aerials don't have incredible range wtf, that's completely not true...

Yeah, the Fortress was nerfed for recovery true enough. Recovery hardly matters as long as your character is really good on stage.

Besides, you shouldn't be usually using Bowser's air game when his ground game is beastly. Most of his kill options are on the ground anyway. It's really easy to trap someone with well timed Smashes because his range is HUGE. Most characters can't get past the F-tilt. His other tilts are also great in terms of speed, range, and power..

For non-aerial related issues, his flamethrower doesn't give him a way to deal with anyone who is spamming projectiles at him, and his size can make it difficult to get clear of a lot of those projectiles. While his ground attacks have good priority and reach, they also are not as fast as many character's attacks and since they're not disjointed if someone spaces just outside of Bowser's reach he can be easily punished. As well, his strongest smash attacks (forward and up) are relatively slow and most people will be able to avoid getting caught by them once they figure out that the forward smash reaches further than it seems like it should.

Yeah I guess this is the main disadvantage of Bowser's size. Lol just air dodge or rolling dodge past them since those are amazing in Brawl. Or heck, F-tilting projectiles even works. And wtf at his ground attacks not being as fast as other character's attacks, you must be reading obscure frame data. His attack speed is just fine. O_o

And mind you non-properly spaced disjointed attacks can be easily punished by Bowser's gigantic F-tilt. =P

Bowser is so strong he hardly need Smash attacks to kill anyway...but let's say you land an F-smash at 80%. Just like punish someone after anticipating a dodge. Mind you the F-smash is actually quite a lot faster than it was in Melee. A C-sticked F-smash isn't as slow as other Smashes strong Smashes, and this one still seriously packs a punch.

 

[hizzlum]

I've made quite a few changes to my rankings list after last time.

Note: Characters aren't sorted in any particular order in their category.

--------------------
Top Rank

Fox
Marth
Falco
Meta Knight
Toon Link
Wolf
--------------------
High Rank

Samus
Peach
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Olimar
Solid Snake
--------------------
Middle Rank

Mario
Donkey Kong
Link
Yoshi
Kirby
Ness
Pikachu
Luigi
Jigglypuff
Bowser
Sheik
Mr. G&W
Ganondorf
Wario
Ike
Ivysaur
Charizard
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Lucario
R.O.B.
Sonic
--------------------
Low Rank

Captain Falcon
Squirtle
--------------------

Fox should be in high tier while snake should be put in the top. Ganondorf is bottom tier in brawl and squitle is not the worst character in the can he can WoP and combo well

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oh wow, that list is absolutely horrible. Look how low he put G&W, Dedede, ROB, and Squirtle. Look how high he put Link and Fox.

 

[Browny]

my mind...




its blown

 

[sweener]

(the order in the tiers do no nessarily suggest order)
Top
Metaknight
Snake
Marth

High
Luigi
Toon Link
G&W
Wolf
Falco
ROB
Lucas
IC

Mid
Mario
Ike
King Dedede
Olimar
Link
Pokemon Trainer
Pikachu
Kirby
Fox
Bowser
Zelda
Pit
Ness
Diddy

Low
Shiek
Lucario
Zamus
Donkey Kong
Wario
Jiggs
Sonic

Bottom
Samus
Ganon
C. Falcon
Yoshi

 

[PIMPSLAP]

move falco to top he wins. and soon the ic aswell.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

His aerials don't have incredible range wtf, that's completely not true...

Yeah, the Fortress was nerfed for recovery true enough. Recovery hardly matters as long as your character is really good on stage.

Besides, you shouldn't be usually using Bowser's air game when his ground game is beastly. Most of his kill options are on the ground anyway. It's really easy to trap someone with well timed Smashes because his range is HUGE. Most characters can't get past the F-tilt. His other tilts are also great in terms of speed, range, and power..

Yeah I guess this is the main disadvantage of Bowser's size. Lol just air dodge or rolling dodge past them since those are amazing in Brawl. Or heck, F-tilting projectiles even works. And wtf at his ground attacks not being as fast as other character's attacks, you must be reading obscure frame data. His attack speed is just fine. O_o

And mind you non-properly spaced disjointed attacks can be easily punished by Bowser's gigantic F-tilt. =P

Bowser is so strong he hardly need Smash attacks to kill anyway...but let's say you land an F-smash at 80%. Just like punish someone after anticipating a dodge. Mind you the F-smash is actually quite a lot faster than it was in Melee. A C-sticked F-smash isn't as slow as other Smashes strong Smashes, and this one still seriously packs a punch.

he's post count is over 9000!!!LOL yeah don't bother on here unless it's to joke there not going to change there list for nobody

 

[Gishnak]

I browse this topic mostly often, and what amazes me is how much random people's tier lists differ. I typically just glance over them, find 4 or 5 glaring mistakes, and I am quickly disinterested. Why don't people read through 30 or 40 pages of this discussion THEN post one? It's practically impossible to determine a tier list by yourself, you need to hear other opinions and pay close attention to tournament results. You can't just play a character a little and think that he's low quality. I often think this, but that's why I head over to this specific character's forum, and read up on the character, and watch some of the 'top' players to see where their meta game is currently at. I'm often surprised how much potential certain characters have that I overlooked.

I understand everything is up for interpretation, but for the most part, many basic things are agreed upon, (G&W > Dedede seems mostly agreed upon at the moment, for example). So why do I see characters grossly misplaced? It wastes the time of others who quote the tier list, and correct it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but please just make it an educated guess, not a gut feeling.

If you happen to be reading this, and in at some point in the future plan on posting a tier list of your own (great! that's what this topic is for) PLEASE do a little research. Read through this topic. Go look at some tournament results. Read every single character discussion forum. (Who do a lot of characters have trouble against? What characters can gimp others? What are some of the more useful techniques?)

I feel like I know at least as much as the average person posting in this thread, if not more, but I'm not even considering posting a tier list. Why? Because I haven't done the research. I know ICs have sweet grab capabilities, but I've never really watched that much of them, nor have I seen tournament videos with them in it, so how could in my right mind put them anywhere on the list? I don't know which characters they are better than, or worse than.

Also, if you are really lazy, you could at least get a general feel for where characters are grouped, then bull**** the rest. (Ex: Snake, wolf, marth, falco, g&w are all going to be top, or maybe high; Falcon is going to be near the bottom) That way, even though you still aren't knowledgeable enough to post a tier list, at least it's reasonable enough for others to look through and think about, and perhaps generate some positive discussion, as opposed to "Rob shouldn't be in low tier, jiggs shouldn't be high" obvious, but true comments.

Ugh, long rant, sorry. The idea of this post is to trim this topic down (it moves very quickly) to mostly discussion about certain characters and who they are better or worse than, so people can get a good idea. Every once and a while, someone should take their time and put together a reasonable list so the rest of us can critique. I don't want random people who are curious how close they are to guessing the quality of different characters to just spend 10 minutes and guess.

Thank you, and have a nice day.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

i tried it. i was close to getting everyone to agree lol and i was modifying the low tier to mid high and i froze the top tier but.then a flame war started and everyone ignored me. except a few so i gave up the cause is not worth the time my friend

 

[Gishnak]

I forgot to mention that there are, in fact, tier lists that appear to have some work put into them. PIMPSLAP, for example, I believe you have one of the much stronger tier lists out there, so my post mostly doesn't apply to you. (This of course does not mean that he has the closest to being correct tier list, it only means that at this current stage in the game, his list is more supported.)

 

[Lithos]

Well said Gishnak. I'm more of a lurker too and I have to agree completely. About 4/5 of the lists posted completely disregard the discussion in this topic and arrange the characters by personal preference. It's a waste of time to read or even critique them since they don't have anything backing them to begin with.