• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
17,885
Location
Houston,Tx
Whats with u people and fox? None of you understand how bad he ha sbeen made. All of his shine tricks are gone since there is no WD. His up-air are a thing of the past due to the improved Di. His up smash out of shield and running upsmash is nice but he still no where near top.
 

reborn394

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
133
Location
New York, NY
Dude, nice analysis for each character. Can you post one for the whole roster in the future?

Toon Link's Utilt (I believe that's the move I'm thinking of) is very spamable, but it's kind of hard to get people in if they know to look out for it. His floatyness is good for combos because he doesn't fall down like most other people so he can follow you through the air. However his floatyness hurts him in terms of being edgeguarded because it makes him like a sitting duck. I know that with Falcon jump off stage backwards -> Bair -> reverse Uair can really mess up Toon Link's recovery. Also his UpB DI is kind of lame but I'm sure the good TL users know how to get around that. His Dair is good but not godly like some people make it out to be. Punishable if the opponent knows what he's doing. Projectiles add a lot to TL. Overall he's good and I'm sure he has the potential to be top tier barely but right now I think high tier is a safer spot.

Falcon's game is all about aerials. If you can get people in the air you have a good chance of winning with Falcon. However Falcon has a hard time getting quite a few characters up in the air so he gets beat in the ground battle. Pit, Metaknight, and Pikachu are his worst matchups in my opinion. I used to think that Olimar was the ultimate Falcon counter but after more examination he's not as much of a counter as those three I named are. Overall Falcon is below average but could be middle tier if he's lucky.

Yeah Pika is definitely near broken in my opinion. His Thunder has almost no open lag frames and is WAY too powerful since it's not really punishable. Fsmash has too much reach and Dsmash is freakin stupid. Honestly I can see Pika as a viable top tier in time.

Ness' recovery is not the best but he, Lucas, and Ike all have scary UpBs. You seriously just have to get out of their way because they are so nuts strong. In Melee Ness' UpB recovery could be gimped fairly easily but in Brawl with the slower tempo it's a lot harder to interrupt his UpB. Maybe projectile characters could do it but I don't play any of those so I wouldn't know. Otherwise he's a decently strong character who I can see as mid tier.

DeDeDe's UpB may be kind of crappy but other than that he his ridiculous. He has great reach, a projectile (which adds a lot even though it's not that great), loads of power, and good juggling potential thanks to his multiple jumps. His Uair and Dair are good and his Fair is nice except kind of hard to use consistently (for me anyways). Chain grab = pwnage in offline matches. In online matches it's harder to do because of stupid latency but still useful at times. Overall very strong character.

Also thanks for the compliments. lol I try to at least explain my views well even if they might not always be totally correct.
 

BDawgPHD

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
751
Whats with u people and fox? None of you understand how bad he ha sbeen made. All of his shine tricks are gone since there is no WD. His up-air are a thing of the past due to the improved Di. His up smash out of shield and running upsmash is nice but he still no where near top.
You neglect to mention that he's still fast and can still camp pretty well. His recovery is assisted by the auto-edge grab, and he can still gimp people with the shine, although not necessarily everyone, and you have to shine properly since you can't jump cancel it. I'd say he's not as good as Falco, but still pretty decent. I'm not sure where I'd place him, but it would be somewhat on the high end, although I'm hesitant about putting him too high.
 

Antinillus

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
13
Location
New York City
Everything is not ordered correctly, but placed under what I believe to be their proper tiers.

Top
Olimar
Pit
Marth
Toon Link

High
Snake
Diddy Kong
Metaknight
King Dedede
Falco
Wolf
Pikachu
Sheik
R.O.B.

Mid
Zero Suit Samus
Ike
Bowser
Mr. Game and Watch
Fox
Donkey Kong
Squirtle
Sonic
Charizard
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Luigi
Lucas
Lucario

Low
Ness
Wario
Samus
Peach
Link
Kirby
Ivysaur
Mario
Jigglypuff

Bottom
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Yoshi
 

Eriko

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
44
I wonder how Fumi throws those eggs so far off an edgehop so quickly. Also, the first grabbing sequence isn't that special. It's just boost grabs and some really nicely timed pivots.
 

Metro Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
705
Location
Mississippi
Well, I think this was the best video of "Fraustdogger" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TMNIgFGg7c&feature=related

However, as decent of a player as Frustdogger is, this does not show that Yoshi is going to be exceedly better on the expert levels. I mean, I have a friend who is better with Yoshi than this, and I beat him 5 to 1 with Link, who... also arguably is really bad. So, the tier lists are a bit misleading, considering that the player can make the real difference at low stages. Also, a lot of his videos they are using items, that made discredit him some. Like his airdodging game and his general evasive game, doesn't really make Yoshi look better, it just makes him look better. Any character can evade.

He is better than what he was in melee, but he isn't all that much better to deserve a much higher spot on an eventually tier list. I guess my next request to be, for convincing me, and other skeptics on the power of Yoshi, is post people winning in tournaments.

I have seen a lot of really really good players switch to Ness recently because they believe he is one of the top characters in brawl. So, Yoshi also could have had one of those boosts. My experience versus Ness at least, have shown me that his f-air sparkles and his throw are really really ****ing hard to mess with. Sparkles = godly priority, try your Yoshi against a decent Ness player. Like maybe if you have a decent DJC b-air game, you can punish the Ness. Also, if you try shield grabbing as much as Frustdagger does, than some Character like DEDEDE or NESS with throw your *** all over the place or throw you into a 30 dmg combo.

Question: Can Yoshi be shieldstabbed? That is a really good advantage in brawl, so maybe he deserves to be higher. I think the Low tier isn't as low as it was in Melee.
 

Ghost0047

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
10
Location
Irving
If I had to give the higher tier to any characters

Marth, Ike, Lucario, Metaknight, Diddy, Toon Link, Falco, Fox, and maybe Samus
and if anyone has already posted this list sryi didn't realy read all the posts
 

BDawgPHD

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
751
...Like his airdodging game and his general evasive game, doesn't really make Yoshi look better, it just makes him look better. Any character can evade...
But Yoshi's airspeed is pretty good....his airdodge becomes a bit better than other's, since he has the freedom to actually move away from the opponent, making it difficult to space even without airdodging. Someone like Meta Knight who has poor airspeed has to attack or get creative when trying to return to the ground, since the airdodging can be predictable and easy to space out.

That's my take on it, I don't play Yoshi, but I do remember his air-mobility, and I know what a pain it is for Meta Knight to get on the ground....I basically have to use my jumps to mind**** people and maybe teleport a bit.
 

Corner-Trap

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
535
Location
Fayetteville, NC
except that, unlike Zelda/sheik or Samus/ZSS, PT is FORCED to switch between his pokes.... heck, ZSS can never go back to samus without a smashball.
Zelda/Sheik, and Samus/Zamus had nothing to do with what I said.

1) There's too much wrong with it...I'm gonna wait for someone else who has the patience to look at it without having to punt a baby to correct it.

2) As far as I know, you never offered me a match...if you're posting a challenge on this thread, chances are I never got it. I suggest you PM me and offer me a match :chuckle:
1) Saying something is wrong without saying why doesn't help much.

2) Just join SRK and ask for matches, I don't have my Wifi up, or I would play you personally.

Just to clear things up, most of the characters still aren't organized within the tiers themselves, so that should clear up a lot of what you pointed out. We've also decided to rank PT separately, so the individual Pokemon themselves may be ranked low but PT as a whole is a bit higher. Also note that a lot of our tier list has to do with match-ups. Ivysaur and C.Falcon may have a few things going for them, but if you look across the roster, they don't have to many advantageous match-ups.

EDIT:

On a side note, I'm very lenient when it comes to changing the list. If pose a convincing statement then I'll willingly shift things around. A lot of the placings were do to what people have posted on SRK and SWF.
 

BDawgPHD

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
751
Zelda/Sheik, and Samus/Zamus had nothing to do with what I said.



1) Saying something is wrong without saying why doesn't help much.

2) Just join SRK and ask for matches, I don't have my Wifi up, or I would play you personally.



Just to clear things up, most of the characters still aren't organized within the tiers themselves, so that should clear up a lot of what you pointed out. We've also decided to rank PT separately, so the individual Pokemon themselves may be ranked low but PT as a whole is a bit higher. Also note that a lot of our tier list has to do with match-ups. Ivysaur and C.Falcon may have a few things going for them, but if you look across the roster, they don't have to many advantageous match-ups.

EDIT:
On a side note, I'm very lenient when it comes to changing the list. If pose a convincing statement then I'll willingly shift things around. A lot of the placings were do to what people have posted on SRK and SWF.
Corner-Trap's forum lulz said:
Top:
Snake
Pit
Toon Link
Falco
Metaknight (SHOULD BE THE TOP BTW)
Marth
Wolf

High:
Zelda
R.O.B.
King Dedede
Ice Climbers
Game & Watch
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Diddy Kong
Pikman & Olimar
Fox
Pikachu

Mid:
Luigi
Kirby
Sheik
Peach
Squirtle
Wario
Lucario
Ness
Ike
Jigglypuff
Charizard

Low:
Link
Donkey Kong
Samus
Bowser
Yoshi

Bottom:
Ivysaur
Sonic
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Mario



Seriously, I'm not going to explain the problem with every new tier list out there, otherwise every other post will say "Meta Knight is top of the list[reasons], Captain Falcon isn't bottom tier[reasons]". But since you're a peckerhead, I might as well satisfy your lack of thinking ability. Just this once.

Don't like Wolf being in top tier. He's got some good moves, but I haven't seen any Wolf action yet, so I can't comment....I just don't see him as top tier, since he has a bad recovery and doesn't dazzle me with his moves. Plus I like Falco better, Falco is one that can be a top tier-er.

Luigi should be middle/top of high tier...his only downside is his lightness and his slidey nature, which a good player will work around with proper spot dodging and good spacing. His recovery is on par with every other character, save the epic ones, and he's got good aerial skills and even a decent ground game. He's got problems against players that outrange him, simply because he's slidey and he has to work to get in close.

Pikachu should be top tier....I really don't have to explain this one, right? Seriously?

I don't really think Zelda should be high tier. Originally, her camping skills seemed really good, but looking back on it, it was because people were nubs at this game. Her Din's fire is easily air-dodged as long as you see it coming, and her attacks are strong, but she's still sort of laggy. I'd say mid tier, if she is played really well, possibly the top of mid tier...anyone wants to argue Zelda as elsewhere in the tier, go ahead.

Kirby is high tier. He's got a good recovery (everyone in the Kirby squad does, apparently :chuckle:) and he's gained major buffs from Melee. I mean MAJOR buffs. He doesn't have laggy moves, his fsmash, usmash, downB, and hammer kills people at reasonably low percentages, and he's very intuitive to play, especially if you used him seriously in either game and even if you didn't. Throw in the fact that his copy ability makes use of an enemy's attack - and believe me, just about every attack in Brawl has a use - and you have a very strong fighter.

I don't know about Ice Climbers being in high tier, just because there are so many better characters, and because splitting them up is probably a lot more disastrous than it was in Melee (my widowed Popo was a beast, FYI ;)) They're strong, but limited in range, and as someone said you had to get all the pieces together, and a smart player won't let you do that.

From what I hear, Squirtle is a very good character....he's got the awkward aerial motion of Wario, but with quickness and is deceitfully strong. I'd like to see a Squirtle main try to present a case for Squirtle to be high tier, but I wouldn't be surprised if he just moved up the mid tier.

I've been using Charizard, and the last bit I heard about him was "he's got range and he's strong, too bad he's so f***ing slow." But he's not bad....in fact, he's like Ike, with a bit more mobility and a bit less range. His jab is pretty disruptive, his tilt is beastly strong and has horizontal killing potential, his flamethrower is disruptive, his downB....well...sucks......lmao......his upB has killing potential, his glide attack is good, his smash attack has the range of wolf's, given it has windup lag, and he's a tank. Basically, he's just a generally good character, and I think he should be in high tier, probably near the bottom-ish of it. Not positive though, so if you have a good Charizard, let me know.

Donkey Kong should be a lot higher than low tier...I wouldn't say high tier, but with success he might be. Definitely high end of mid tier at least. He's got 3 spikes, I mean cmon, he should be god tier :chuckle: but yea...his stomp is a great spike, and the entire hitbox is a spike, meaning he can kill people that are swimming off the bottom of the level. His mega-punch has super armor frames at a certain part of it if it's fully charged (I think), his grabs are good, his jabs and tilts are useful, and his smashes, although slow, are very very powerful. His bair and uair have killing potential and lack of lag, his nair isn't bad, and as long as you don't spam his fair wildly, it will serve you well. If you can sideB someone, it gives you a free shot at someone, but otherwise he's still just an awesome character.

I don't know Samus well enough...I know her power shot got nerfed, but everything else about her is still good....St. Viers explained that one, and I don't know Samus, so I'll back off on this explanation.

Bowser is better than low tier. He's got some good speed behind him along with his monster cuddly uber awesome pwnage machine-esque strength. His tilts and jab is great for some minor camping and good if your spacing is correct, and his smash attacks are just generally good....given they are laggy, but his range is deceitfully good. His fair has good range and is an amazingly strong attack when spaced well, his bair doesn't suck butt anymore, and his uair is deadly and has good range. His flame attack is good for getting in close without running into a fight like a big slow mother f***er, his *** from the heavens has super armor frames, and his sideB is just awesome. Probably mid tier...a good Bowser might take him to the top of the mid tier.

Sonic is definitely above bottom tier. If good players tried to pick him up, he might end up in mid tier somewhere, but due to the lack of interest in him (AKA noobs suck) he'll probably be doomed to low tier.

Ivysaur is an excellent character with range and power. His downB attack is the best in the entire game, by the way (besides all of charizard's moves, and like every taunt of course). All of his attacks are good as long as you have good spacing, and he has a lot of general killing potential. As long as you don't get gimped, you're fine, and a good player will look out for it. Ivysaur will probably be low end of mid tier or high end of low tier.

Captain Falcon will probably be low tier because for all the skill it takes to use him, he just isn't as beastly as he was in Melee, and his approach game was near killed by the fact that his speed was nerfed greatly. He's still a very good character, and smart players will be very good with him.



So yea....this was a big waste of an hour....seriously, for the most part we went through most of this earlier in the thread. I'm thinking of making a tier database/discussion, with pros and cons for each character.......but that's too much work....someone else needs to do it/maintain it as we discuss so noobs like Corner Trap don't bring in dysfunctional tier lists and force the much smarter members of SWF to repeat themselves =/

P.S. I don't feel like going to your forum, so if you have any decent not-sucky people, send me a PM....otherwise don't complain when I say you suck....I'm here to get proven wrong, you know where to find me.
 

pidgey14

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
103
Location
Dundee, Scotland
NNID
Redpidgey
Well, I think this was the best video of "Fraustdogger" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TMNIgFGg7c&feature=related

However, as decent of a player as Frustdogger is, this does not show that Yoshi is going to be exceedly better on the expert levels. I mean, I have a friend who is better with Yoshi than this, and I beat him 5 to 1 with Link, who... also arguably is really bad. So, the tier lists are a bit misleading, considering that the player can make the real difference at low stages. Also, a lot of his videos they are using items, that made discredit him some. Like his airdodging game and his general evasive game, doesn't really make Yoshi look better, it just makes him look better. Any character can evade.

He is better than what he was in melee, but he isn't all that much better to deserve a much higher spot on an eventually tier list. I guess my next request to be, for convincing me, and other skeptics on the power of Yoshi, is post people winning in tournaments.

I have seen a lot of really really good players switch to Ness recently because they believe he is one of the top characters in brawl. So, Yoshi also could have had one of those boosts. My experience versus Ness at least, have shown me that his f-air sparkles and his throw are really really ****ing hard to mess with. Sparkles = godly priority, try your Yoshi against a decent Ness player. Like maybe if you have a decent DJC b-air game, you can punish the Ness. Also, if you try shield grabbing as much as Frustdagger does, than some Character like DEDEDE or NESS with throw your *** all over the place or throw you into a 30 dmg combo.

Question: Can Yoshi be shieldstabbed? That is a really good advantage in brawl, so maybe he deserves to be higher. I think the Low tier isn't as low as it was in Melee.

But remember, that was ONLY ONE Yoshi player. There are obviously more. There is a big chance that they are better players who don't use items and make less mistakes than this player.

But my main point is that the people who hate Yoshi, don't pay enough attention to him. some don't even know that his egg throw can help him recover for crying out loud. I just want more people to look at Yoshi more because I feel sorry for the guys who show a lot of proof about Yoshi's upside to no DJC and other stuff, but they get ignored.
 

Corner-Trap

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
535
Location
Fayetteville, NC
1) You honestly did waste an hour

2) Your disagreements with my tier list were so minor that I don't understand why you even made a big deal over it

3) Get that stick out your *** and jump off your high horse

Seriously though, our views of the tier list are so insignificant that it doesn't even make sense on why you had to go and insult SRK over it. It was nothing more than a difference in opinion, yet you felt it necessary to label others stupid for merely having a slightly altered view as opposed to your own. You're ignorant, arrogant, and you need to take a rain check over your attitude.

Overall, you're just really immature. Other people made tier lists that far differed from your opinions, yet you left them alone. But when I posted my tier list which was closer along to your views, you felt like attacking me. Do you have some kind of grudge against SRK or something? If so, then take that up with someone else, not me.
 

pidgey14

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
103
Location
Dundee, Scotland
NNID
Redpidgey
Well, I think this was the best video of "Fraustdogger" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TMNIgFGg7c&feature=related

However, as decent of a player as Frustdogger is, this does not show that Yoshi is going to be exceedly better on the expert levels. I mean, I have a friend who is better with Yoshi than this, and I beat him 5 to 1 with Link, who... also arguably is really bad. So, the tier lists are a bit misleading, considering that the player can make the real difference at low stages. Also, a lot of his videos they are using items, that made discredit him some. Like his airdodging game and his general evasive game, doesn't really make Yoshi look better, it just makes him look better. Any character can evade.

He is better than what he was in melee, but he isn't all that much better to deserve a much higher spot on an eventually tier list. I guess my next request to be, for convincing me, and other skeptics on the power of Yoshi, is post people winning in tournaments.

I have seen a lot of really really good players switch to Ness recently because they believe he is one of the top characters in brawl. So, Yoshi also could have had one of those boosts. My experience versus Ness at least, have shown me that his f-air sparkles and his throw are really really ****ing hard to mess with. Sparkles = godly priority, try your Yoshi against a decent Ness player. Like maybe if you have a decent DJC b-air game, you can punish the Ness. Also, if you try shield grabbing as much as Frustdagger does, than some Character like DEDEDE or NESS with throw your *** all over the place or throw you into a 30 dmg combo.

Question: Can Yoshi be shieldstabbed? That is a really good advantage in brawl, so maybe he deserves to be higher. I think the Low tier isn't as low as it was in Melee.

But remember, that was ONLY ONE Yoshi player. There are obviously more. There is a big chance that they are better players who don't use items and make less mistakes than this player.

But my main point is that the people who hate Yoshi, don't pay enough attention to him. some don't even know that his egg throw can help him recover for crying out loud. I just want more people to look at Yoshi more because I feel sorry for the guys who show a lot of proof about Yoshi's upside to no DJC and other stuff, but they get ignored.
 

Organelle

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
7
Hey guys, I have been playing a lot of one on one with my newb smash friends. So I have been using Sonic for fun. I then decided to utilize him in two tournaments, and I have found that in 1v1 he does phenomenal. His speed and attack priority seem to just dominate every opponent I faced. So I am not saying he should be top tier or anything, I just dont think he belongs at the bottom where people place him.
 

VulgarHandGestures

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
326
i'm still surprised at the amount of idiots separating pokemon trainer into three characters.

do you morons even play as him or do you just go ahead and do whatever the hell you want based on what you've heard from other morons?
 

Corner-Trap

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
535
Location
Fayetteville, NC
Hey guys, I have been playing a lot of one on one with my newb smash friends. So I have been using Sonic for fun. I then decided to utilize him in two tournaments, and I have found that in 1v1 he does phenomenal. His speed and attack priority seem to just dominate every opponent I faced. So I am not saying he should be top tier or anything, I just dont think he belongs at the bottom where people place him.
Not trying to disagree with you, but Sonic's overall priority is one of the worst in the game.

i'm still surprised at the amount of idiots separating pokemon trainer into three characters.

do you morons even play as him or do you just go ahead and do whatever the hell you want based on what you've heard from other morons?
Or how about some people have different views of how tiering should be done. Some will tier PT as a whole while others tier PT separately. Personally I do it separately since I base a lot of my tier lists off of match-ups, and PT is three separate characters with three different sets of match-ups. So don't go around calling everyone morons for doing things a bit differently.
 

Zink

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
2,365
Location
STEP YO GAME UP
Not trying to disagree with you, but Sonic's overall priority is one of the worst in the game.



Or how about some people have different views of how tiering should be done. Some will tier PT as a whole while others tier PT separately. Personally I do it separately since I base a lot of my tier lists off of match-ups, and PT is three separate characters with three different sets of match-ups. So don't go around calling everyone morons for doing things a bit differently.
I agree with PT being separate, simply because you only get one Pokemon out at a time. It's pointless to rank them together even if you HAVE to switch, because there's only one character doing the fighting and he has a unique moveset.

CT, please address my earlier points.
 

Tien2500

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2002
Messages
1,432
Location
NY
Well Vulgarhand you really supported your theory with some great evidence. Well done!

Anyway while it is not feasible to play exclusively as one of PT's pokemon you do have a good deal of control over how much time you play as each of them. If you don't like Squirtle for instance you can play as him long enough to knock your opponent away and switch as soon as its safe. Now lets say Squirtle is regarded as a top tier character (he's not but lets pretend) and Ivysaur is bottom Tier (which some people seem to actually think). A player who spends more of the fight playing as Squirtle would fair better in a tournament than someone who tries to use Squirtle the least.

This is not to say that they should be ranked seperately though. This ignores some of the advantages of being able to switch. For example I find switching to be useful in offsetting Squirtle's low KO potential and obviously being able to get progressively heavier characters helps as well. There are also disadvantages such as coming back as a different character (who may not be as well suited for the particular matches) stamina issues if you last long enough, and having to go through two transformations to get back to your best character. If your opponent is at a low damage level it may take a while until you get another chance to switch. Personally if I were to make a tier list I would rank them seperately *and* give a composite ranking as well. For "official" purposes the composite rating would be PT's tier. However unofficially ranking the three as individuals would provide more information which is always useful.

(Pssst this is called discussion, hence the topic title being called official brawl tier discussion. Its this fascinating process where you give your opinion, support it, and listen to the opinions of others to gain a better understanding of a particular topic. You should try it sometime.)
 

Tien2500

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2002
Messages
1,432
Location
NY
Its different from Zelda/Sheik though because you never need to switch between those two if you don't want to.
 

Veral42

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
13
Location
The USA
1) You honestly did waste an hour

2) Your disagreements with my tier list were so minor that I don't understand why you even made a big deal over it

3) Get that stick out your *** and jump off your high horse

Seriously though, our views of the tier list are so insignificant that it doesn't even make sense on why you had to go and insult SRK over it. It was nothing more than a difference in opinion, yet you felt it necessary to label others stupid for merely having a slightly altered view as opposed to your own. You're ignorant, arrogant, and you need to take a rain check over your attitude.

Overall, you're just really immature. Other people made tier lists that far differed from your opinions, yet you left them alone. But when I posted my tier list which was closer along to your views, you felt like attacking me. Do you have some kind of grudge against SRK or something? If so, then take that up with someone else, not me.

You say that his disagreements were "minor". However, when making an objective tier list even minor ignorances can be fatal. I will give you that his approach to critisizing you was a bit self-righteous, but so is yours. I'm not perfect, you're not, and nor is he; however, that doesn't mean what he's saying is wrong, and your inexperiance shines through when you react violently to commentary on your tier list. When discussing something like tiers, trying to stregnthen your argument by attacking a critic's personality is an exttreamly wekening tactic, and instead you should provide testing results and data that attempts to show your point of view. If the data matches his argument and not yours, post it anyways so other people know it and adjust your tier listing post accordingly.
 

Illussionary

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
293
Location
ATL, Georgia
Everything is not ordered correctly, but placed under what I believe to be their proper tiers.

Top
Olimar
Pit
Marth
Toon Link

High
Snake
Diddy Kong
Metaknight
King Dedede
Falco
Wolf
Pikachu
Sheik
R.O.B.

Mid
Zero Suit Samus
Ike
Bowser
Mr. Game and Watch
Fox
Donkey Kong
Squirtle
Sonic
Charizard
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Luigi
Lucas
Lucario

Low
Ness
Wario
Samus
Peach
Link
Kirby
Ivysaur
Mario
Jigglypuff

Bottom
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Yoshi
I saw a lot of problems with this list:

1. G&W is high tier
2. Don't Seperate the 3 pokemon for PT, btw Pt is Mid-High Tier
3. ZSS is high tier
4. Sonic is high tier due to his combo ability and speed
5. Ness and Lucas are high tier, Lucas might be top tier.
6. Zelda is High tier
7. Diddy Kong is top tier
8. Snake is top tier
9. R.O.B. is high tier or top tier
10. Wolf is top tier.
11. Mario is mid tier
12. Wario is Mid tier
13. Kirby is mid-high tier
14. Yoshi is mid tier
15. Samus Mid-high tier
16. Peach mid-high tier

Other then that its a good list lol
 

Illussionary

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
293
Location
ATL, Georgia
This is my Tier list projection, after we are well into the metagame. They aren't in any paticular order in the tiers.

Top Tier:

Marth
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Snake
R.O.B.

High Tier:

Lucas
Pokemon Trainer
Zelda
Game & Watch
King Dedede
Ness
Olimar
Fox
Falco
Zamus
Pickachu
Ike
Pit
Meta Knight
Sonic
Sheik
Kirby
Ice Climbers

Middle Tier:

Samus
Wario
Lucario
Bowser
Mario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Yoshi
Link
Peach
Jigglypuff

Low:

Gannondorf
Captain Falcon


Is this pretty accurrate?
 

e105beta

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
256
You say that his disagreements were "minor". However, when making an objective tier list even minor ignorances can be fatal. I will give you that his approach to critisizing you was a bit self-righteous, but so is yours. I'm not perfect, you're not, and nor is he; however, that doesn't mean what he's saying is wrong, and your inexperiance shines through when you react violently to commentary on your tier list. When discussing something like tiers, trying to stregnthen your argument by attacking a critic's personality is an exttreamly wekening tactic, and instead you should provide testing results and data that attempts to show your point of view. If the data matches his argument and not yours, post it anyways so other people know it and adjust your tier listing post accordingly.
That advice applies to all arguments, but tiers especially. Since tiers are built mainly off of player experience, tiers are highly subject to change and opinion. If somebody disagrees with your tier list, don't tell them why they suck, tell them why you disagree and why your argument is still valid. If it isn't valid, be man (woman?) enough to change it and move on. Now that applies if the other person wasn't being a COMPLETE *******, which I don't believe the criticizer was, even if he was a little haughty about it.
 
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Messages
45
Location
Diamond Bar
This is my Tier list projection, after we are well into the metagame. They aren't in any paticular order in the tiers.

Top Tier:

Marth
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Snake
R.O.B.

High Tier:

Lucas
Pokemon Trainer
Zelda
Game & Watch
King Dedede
Ness
Olimar
Fox
Falco
Zamus
Pickachu
Ike
Pit
Meta Knight
Sonic
Sheik
Kirby
Ice Climbers

Middle Tier:

Samus
Wario
Lucario
Bowser
Mario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Yoshi
Link
Peach
Jigglypuff

Low:

Gannondorf
Captain Falcon


Is this pretty accurrate?
It seems all right, for now. I would brinfg Sonic to high tier though. I feel as if he is not noticied enough. MAybe DOnkey Kong can be high, but i am still playing with him to see if he can be put up. He is strong, but not that fast.
 

e105beta

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
256
I really don't like any of these, but I don't feel like going into one of mine. I'll just say the high tier and top tiers seem a little big, and I don't think Marth is the best character in the game.
 

KingofCereal

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
252
Location
DC
How many tiers do you think there should be realistically. With between 37 and 39 characters (depending on your interpretation of PT) I don't think it should be limited to 5 tiers. I see a more divided list with more tiers to accommodate the gap between top and bottom tier characters. IMO it'll go: top, great, good, middle, poor, bad, total garbage.
 

billythegoat

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
212
Perhaps this is the wrong place to ask this, but I was wondering what are some of peoples requirements for a character to be considered top tier. e.x. the abillity to camp very well, or combo well, or is it a healthy balance of alot of diffirent areas? Your feed back is much appreciated, thx :)
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,321
Location
Tri-state area
How many tiers do you think there should be realistically. With between 37 and 39 characters (depending on your interpretation of PT) I don't think it should be limited to 5 tiers. I see a more divided list with more tiers to accommodate the gap between top and bottom tier characters. IMO it'll go: top, great, good, middle, poor, bad, total garbage.
I think it'll be the opposite and there'll be fewer categories because as far as I can see, the characters seem far more balanced then in melee. Even Gannon seems to still be about mid tier equivalent in power gap when compared to the top tiers like falco, and he's almost definitely the worst of the bunch.

Less of a gap means need for less differentiation, in spite of there being more characters.
 

Uncle Fitzy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
273
Location
Atlanta GA
I think it'll be the opposite and there'll be fewer categories because as far as I can see, the characters seem far more balanced then in melee. Even Gannon seems to still be about mid tier equivalent in power gap when compared to the top tiers like falco, and he's almost definitely the worst of the bunch.

Less of a gap means need for less differentiation, in spite of there being more characters.
I agree. I think there should only be three tiers because of the character balance.
 

Corner-Trap

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
535
Location
Fayetteville, NC
CT, please address my earlier points.
Can you direct me to what your points were again?

You say that his disagreements were "minor". However, when making an objective tier list even minor ignorances can be fatal. I will give you that his approach to critisizing you was a bit self-righteous, but so is yours. I'm not perfect, you're not, and nor is he; however, that doesn't mean what he's saying is wrong, and your inexperiance shines through when you react violently to commentary on your tier list. When discussing something like tiers, trying to stregnthen your argument by attacking a critic's personality is an exttreamly wekening tactic, and instead you should provide testing results and data that attempts to show your point of view. If the data matches his argument and not yours, post it anyways so other people know it and adjust your tier listing post accordingly.
I honestly don't have the slightest problem with people criticizing my tier list at all. People on SRK argue over it all the time, thats why it's always changing every other day. I simply just don't like the way he approached me. He acted as if my tier list was so drastically different from his that is was going to make reality flip upside down. If he actually read my comment saying that most characters aren't organized within the tiers themselves, then that would've settled most of his disputes. He upheld his opinion like it was a proven fact, while flaming me for having a slight variation on it, while ignoring people who had even bigger differences from his view(i.e. Sonic, Mario for top tier). He attacked me as if I had done him a personal wrong. Seriously though, how did you expect me to react to something like that.

EDIT:

To clear things up with some people. Characters will still be separated into five tiers, just because of the amount of characters in the game. But don't think that the bottom tier is very far away from the top tier. Here's a visual example:

Melee's Best
|
|
| Brawl's Best
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| Brawl's Worst
|
|
Melee's Worst
 

katanagash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
118
Location
Tallahassee Florida
Whats with u people and fox? None of you understand how bad he ha sbeen made. All of his shine tricks are gone since there is no WD. His up-air are a thing of the past due to the improved Di. His up smash out of shield and running upsmash is nice but he still no where near top.
I think this is the first time I've seen someone diss Fox. Even though he may not be top tier like he used to be, he is still an essential character. I mean come on, he can still run fast and his up smash still packs a bit of a punch (even though it did get nerfed) but still he's good. Worst case scenario Fox will be top of the middle tier or bottom of the high.
 

Wtfwasthat

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Messages
276
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Ok, first of all let me say that Brawl is a much more balanced style of play than melee, and I think Sakurai did a great job and creating balance while preserving integrity and individuality among the characters. In this game every character has a strength to use, and every character FEELS like their video game counterpart appeared in Sakurai's eye. However, with individuality comes comparison, and similarities and differences create balances and imbalances. People ask the question, who is the best character? Well that will always depend; some characters have great defense, some character great offense, some great degrees of strategy and some are very rounded and balanced. So it depends on what question you ask, and I'd like to clarify that:

The purpose of this tier list is to find out who is the best AT WINNING MATCHES.

In melee, the game was very polarized; you had camping characters, like Peach, Samus and Sheik, and you had characters with brutal offense, like the spacies, Marth, and Lol Shiek. Characters that could do neither as well as the best were beatable. The effect of a good offense is that it stimulates action, which is quite possibly what made melee so amazing; you always had to be doing something, doing something good was better than waiting which was better than doing something wasteful or bad. However, this had an unintended effect; the characters with the strongest offense were simply unstoppable, untouchable by the rest of the cast, and this destroyed some (but not all) of the diversity in the game. Eventually, people found that certain character's individual traits, like Bowser's up-B and Falcon's speedy grabs and powerful combos, could be used to offset the game's primary strategies and devise alternative methods of winning based on them, creating a great meta game.

I see the same thing beginning to develop in Brawl, but without the offense. I don't feel the stimulus to move and to attack or be attacked as much against many of the characters, and I feel the tier list is going to develop around those character that can evoke that reaction and bring the fight across the stage in a safe but effective manner, and I've ranked the characters as such below. First I'd like to explain my tiers.

Top Tier
These are the best characters in the game; these characters have no major counterpicks or counter strategies, and have impressive and established offensive capabilities.
High Tier
These are great characters to pick, and can compete gainfully at any level without need for extensive innovation or stylization.
Mid Tier
These characters are average in most respects, standouts in some, with no brutal counterpicks or counter strategies, and are able to innovate.

Low Tier
These characters suffer from flaws that hinder their ability to compete at tournament level. Creative play can be both rewarding and costly with these characters; however, in the grand balance, better players will still be able to effectively beat players that are worse than them with Low Tier characters.
Bottom Tier
Distinguishing between who is strong, well-balanced and usable among the low tiers, and who gets completely ***** by pretty much everyone.

So, without further ado...

Top Tier
Sheik - OMG nerfs, well not really. Sheik is still very fast and very agile and comes with the ability to hurt you and gimp you if you react predictably. I feel that she is the ONLY character that can handle all of the top tiers and win tournaments against the best of players with her techniques alone.
Diddy Kong - Bananas and Glide tossing are both very gay when separate and come together to form probably the gayest strategies in Brawl. Some characters just can't beat them, and that's a fact. Diddy loses points in his recovery and weight class, and can struggle to finish some characters but can definitely keep donking them until they die. Diddy Hump/Jumpkick is a really great edgeguard too.
Samus - That freaking grapple is really gay, and Samus has solid projectiles to back her up and good close combat. Only those with a combination of strength, speed, and mental fitness will be able to consistently win against Samus.
Meta Knight – Meta and Marth are interesting to place on the list because they play so similarly, however, I gave Meta the nod on this list because he has a few things that I feel give him the edge. First is Mach Tornado, which can almost totally shut down low priority characters like DK. Second is his lack of lag, which I think puts him above Marth in his ability to shut out less than pro players. Third is his edge/gimping game, and I think he has a slight nod over Marth off the stage due to his range off the stage and ability to recover when things go sour, even though I give Marth the nod in the actual match-up between the two.
Marth – We haven't seen the end of Marth yet. Marth is still one of the strongest characters in Brawl, and has the power to force almost every character to react to his actions. He has many new and old strategies that top players are using to place at the top of ladders and in tournaments, and I don't think we've seen all of his umph yet; 5th on this list, because whether or not you choose the cave of the silver monkey or the pit of despair, there is always a way to get through to the cave of sighs and out to the temple gates. Marth gets a donk here from DeDeDe's infinite grab.

High Tier
Mr. Game and Watch – Game and Watch, eh? The best game-and-watches in the country always get their man, and he is amazingly buff in Brawl. He can beat ANY character very soundly if they don't know what to do, especially with his mega mindgames buff downthrow, however, to place at the top, he'll have to get better at camping and get a new projectile. Why does G&W make the best sandwiches? BECAUSE HE LAYS ON THE MUSTARD, SON.
Lucario - Lucario is really good, don't get me wrong, but so is everyone else. Lucario get this spot on two things. The first is his primary mechanic: High Percent = High Damage. It makes for a neat trade but is high in risk and I don't think it works out as well as fighting at standard advantage unless you can maintain a lead. The second is his general imperfections. He has a projectile but it is weak. He has a fast roll, but a roll nonetheless. He has good aerials but they aren't quite spammable, and his smashes just can't kill unless Lucario is at high percent. He has combos and semicombos but they are difficult to set up. All in all his arsenal matches up with almost every character well and I think we'll see him winning many tournaments, I don't think he is the best in show.
Olimar - Olimar is really good at beating people up, has good disjointed hitboxes, and takes a thorough effort to beat. I don't think his gimpable recovery is a huge enough issue to go to war over, I feel that he competes at the top level but I don't feel that he can punish well enough to be the very best.
Pikachu – Pika got a major buff from Melee to Brawl, but the two biggest features are his extreme down throw chain grab, and his super buff low lag thunder, which can be effective as low at 70%. Pika also has a good projectile and solid all-around moves that work on every character, as well as Quick Attack Cancels, while not game-breaking, can certainly turn him into the Fox of Brawl in terms of speed. Pika gets his spot here on the basics + the gay; he has a few standard smash style moves that just work and keep working to build damage, he can land KO moves against any character, and then he has that chain grab which completely blows many match-ups out of the water.
Snake – Snake... is weird. He's really good, but at the same time, your ability to predict the battle comes into play very strongly, and I feel that that is what Sakurai intended. Though he is a great camper, Snake is slow, and vulnerable to defeat from some angles, and must be played both cautiously and effectively if you want to survive.
Falco - Falco hits every point; he can camp, combo and semicombo, pressure, space, fight in the air and ground, edge guard and gimp, and has a good grab game from his chain grab, however, his defense is weak. I think we'll see Falco develop into a very strong pick as the game progresses and we learn more about him.
King DeDeDe - Extremely strong, heavy, with a good camp and several good pokes and some great smashes, DeDeDe is a great pick and can certainly win tournaments, but is weak to a few good characters, like Falco, Pit and Lucas. DeDeDe grabs this spot by a hair simply because he's so good against the cream of the crop; Sheik, Meta and Marth.
Toon Link - Great character that is solid in all departments, but I think weight is a factor here, and getting back on the stage is another factor (not recovery, actually getting off the edge and onto the stage without getting swatted off). I think TL has to make a lot of good guesses and hammer in all of the coffin nails to win against many top tier characters, but his match-ups are all strong.

Mid Tier

Pit - I don't think he's as buff as most people think he is, but he can force many characters (including most of the high tiers) to play his game. I think he's honestly weak to solid all-around aerial/punishment characters like Sheik, Mario and Squirtle, and people with good counters to his arrows like Lucas. Everyone else will have to fight for their bread against Pit.
Ice Climbers - I need to see more of what they are capable of, but as of now they have good chaingrabs and combos, and perform against everyone effectively.
Ike – Ike is intensely powerful and has amazing priority, and several speedy moves that can KO at percents that are ********. Spacing with Ike is almost a non-issue; the idea is that positive trades will lead to brutal setups and early KO's. Unfortunately, I don't think he has the tools to win consistently enough to be at the top of the tier list, and is easily counterpicked, but I think against the very best of the best his match-ups improve, because Ike can force many live or die choices against top tiers.
Fox - Fox is a good character, and has a solid pressure game, and can win tournaments by punishing mistakes effectively and applying pressure moves in the right spots, but at the highest level he gets beaten to hell by the best characters that won't let him set up an attack, defend, camp, or recover. When questioning Fox's spot on the tier list, consider how he matches up with Marth, Sheik, and MetaKnight; I don't see consistency here at all, though he can be a great counterpick.
Jigglypuff - Not much different from melee, but without rest combos and with a seriously gimped rest, a big asset was lost, and I think Jiggs takes a major hit there. She can certainly compete with the best, however.
Peach – We haven't seen the last of Peach either. I think the Glide Toss will make her very strong and a viable tournament choice for experts, and though her old FC style is mostly out the window a stylish Peach can still lay it on.
Lucas - Lucas is hard to place, because he does everything well, is difficult to shut-down, and can fight off many characters. He is also an effective aggressive camper with PK fire, can gimp with Psi Magnet and PK Thunder, but overall, I think he has a bag of tricks that great players will be able to overcome with good pressure and solid play. A good comparison would be Mario; Lucas has good anti projectile and anticamper, good aerials, but against some characters, like Diddy, Sheik and Marth, will struggle to do damage or KO. As far as the counterpick Tier list goes, Lucas is #1, but if you're going to main him, be warned that you'll need to master all of his points to compete.
Zero Suit Samus - A good character, but with a weak recovery and a lot of lag on her really good spacers, and her projectile is a little funky but can lead to good setups. A solid choice for great players who like a fast style, but good-to-average players may want to take time to pick up a strong second to deal with their weaknesses.
Yoshi - Yoshi is mega buff! Don't underestimate him! He's got some camping, but mostly he's just SOLID; you have to really be good at smash to be able to consistently beat a good Yoshi. Best dinosaur in the game hands down, but overall doesn't have the tools to beat the far and away best characters.
R.O.B. - Rob is neato! But does he get the job done? The big deciding factor for Rob, I think, is how you effectively you use the dredel, and how good you are at spacing, but otherwise I think R.O.B. just doesn't have it in the offense department.
Kirby - Buffed from last game and definitely someone to be nervous about fighting, but I think if you've really mastered your character and understand Kirby, he's beatable with anyone. I don't think we'll see Kirby winning any major tournaments.
Wolf - Wolf is a strong character, no doubt, and overall one of the best if you are a gay douchehat, but I think he's beatable both on the stage and off the stage (doubly so off stage) by many characters. Great Wolf players will find ways to get around his weaknesses, however, I don't think he pays off as well as many of the characters higher than he is, and I think he'll be getting really ***** if people start overusing him.

Low Tier

Mario - Mario is really good in Brawl, and can beat any strategy with some combination of Cape, F-smash, Backair, Fireballs and juggles, but his problem comes when they start mixing it up in the right ways, making your Mario guess and take damage, and after a while you spend your time donked off the stage at a high percent until you're dead.
Donkey Kong - Good, but has a major issue with projectiles, camping, and lag on those attacks. Much like in Melee, a low tier but masters will continue to excel with him, and a valid tournament choice if he is your best and you know exactly how to handle the top tiers.
Zelda - Zelda is another one of those really good characters that relies entirely too much on landing more hits than the opponent. 5/10 camping, 8/10 power, 4/10 recovery, 5/10 for ingenuity, and good speed where it counts, but it took me a while to place her. Is she better than Mario? I don't think she's significantly better than Wolf or Kirby, but I don't think she's terrible either.
Ness - A good character with a great heart, still has all his tricks from Melee (minus the Yo-Yo glitch of course), and has many answers to the questions of the top tiers, but has yet to measure up to the overall challenge; I mean he can't use the same strategies over and over again to win with consistency, and he can't make most characters answer his attacks if they don't want to.
Link - We all know what Link can do, and those of us who mastered him in the last game found his limitation was that everyone knows exactly what Link can do. THANKS GERM ahem I mean...at the highest, most perfect level of play, he's a match for any character, but positioning and spacing is so important to keep that I just don't think he's feasible to do against good players.

Bottom Tier
Captain Falcon - He's not that fast, and his up-air is still pretty good, and you can plant moves if you are amazing, but I don't think he's that good anymore; he just doesn't get it done like he used to.
Wario - Many of you will be surprised to see Wario down so low, and I'll go ahead and elaborate; Wario won't win any major tournaments. Once you know what he's capable of, I think it's pretty easy to shut him down and beat him up from a fighting standpoint, which is the only one that Wario has. He has a large area for aerial creativity, I think, which is nice, and is fun to play and watch, I just don't feel like he has anything to give me that I can't find elsewhere. If you have questions, find a character above here that Wario can really put the thwomp on, and elaborate.
Bowser - Still pretty low. Another character with potential, but his obesity cannot be cured completely. Again, we see the Bowser strategy rotating between intercepting aerials, using his Up-B to punish from shield, and using the side B to throw off the opponent, but other characters win faster and do it better, and very mobile characters will just beat you to death.
Sonic - Oh man he looks super cool, but his smashes pretty much all suck, except for maybe the F-smash. F-tilt is a good spacer, but overall he is very reliant on his speed and can be shut down. Sonic is good as an all-rounder and a valid tournament choice, but I don't think you can consider beating the best characters 100% of the time playing only Sonic.
Luigi - Luigi really got it bad this game. He's got fire-punch for kills, but major kudos to you if you can beat a really good Diddy or Samus with the green plumber. A good camp is just too tough to break without wavedashing to back you up.
Pokemon Trainer - Well... man, I just don't know what to say about this guy. He's not all there. His game works from an if-you-can-get-this-off standpoint, but from a high level game play standpoint I just don't see it. Ivysaur is the most solid all around due to bullet seed but and related mvoes but is easily gimped and has trouble killing smart players. Squirtle is insanely light but a good counter to a variety of weak-hit reliant characters, like Mario and even Sheik, but Charizard and Ivysaur lack so much in those match-ups; you'll understand when your Lizardon gets Ken Combo'd to hell. It's almost as if you have to play a stock down with PT, it's so hard to overcome the inherent weaknesses of each Pokemon, and the fact that you are forced to switch by death and fatigue just makes the situation too complicated to overcome. Fatigue is a huge issue here; two minutes minus one second per move makes camping stupidly effective.
Ganondorf - Ganondorf has about three tricks up his sleeve, and if you can avoid them, you will win easily and handily with almost every character. Great 'dorfs, in Melee and in Brawl, have always been able to get it done and offer pain on both ends of a choice, but how the hell do you deal with needle camping with this guy? How to you get back to the stage when you get dunked? How exactly do you kill King DeDeDe? Dorf has some major issues and I think he's too easily counter picked to be a valid tournament character.
I really dont get why you put luigi in the bottom tier he has amazing aerials, no lag, fire punch, amazing fsmash, decent projectile, amazing recovery. You must be playing a different game...cuz luigi is teh pwn
 

templar rage

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
65
I really dont get why you put luigi in the bottom tier he has amazing aerials, no lag, fire punch, amazing fsmash, decent projectile, amazing recovery. You must be playing a different game...cuz luigi is teh pwn
Luigi does not deserve the Bottom tier, maybe high middle to low high IMO.

Marth and Meta play alike? Marth is a powerhouse, Meta can't KO for all the Halberds in Subspace.

Pokemon Trainer should be separated, since all 3 pokemon has distinct differences.

Wolf should be higher, he may be the best space animal, and definitely worthy of high tier.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom