Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Lord Redwall]

Honestly... Tier list are pointless, they grant no knowledge into actually playing the game... This game isn't about who can glitch the game or who has the most priority.. It's about out thinking your opponent. Speed is greater then power unless power can figure out how to slow down speed... It totally relies on your knowledge of the game...

Only thing I have to say is metaknight for bottom tier and yoshi for mid.

metaknight is just too light and almost no ways to ko to be that good... With all the power in this game he's lucky if he survives past 60%....

yoshi gets no love... his bair has no lag... easily can do bair into up tilt, rinse and repeat until you use one of his finishing moves...

I saw Ike's recovery messed up by light shield near the ledge..

 

[StripesOrBars]

Marth is still the best.

Pit, Ike, Rob, Pokemon Trainer, Dedede, Luigi, and possible all 3 spaceies are also very good from what I've seen.

Sonic and diddy seem to be ok as well.

I think the tier list is gonna come down to what characters have the least amount of lag(Marth, Pit, Diddy, ROB) and also, now B moves are gonna play a much bigger factor too it seems. And Dedede could, like Shiek did in melee, render alot of characters almost useless( it's doubtful).

It's too early to make a tier list anyway.

It's gonna be a while before an even close to accuarate list is even thought of.

 

[BigRick]

Honestly... Tier list are pointless, they grant no knowledge into actually playing the game... This game isn't about who can glitch the game or who has the most priority.. It's about out thinking your opponent. Speed is greater then power unless power can figure out how to slow down speed... It totally relies on your knowledge of the game...

Only thing I have to say is metaknight for bottom tier and yoshi for mid.

metaknight is just too light and almost no ways to ko to be that good... With all the power in this game he's lucky if he survives past 60%....

yoshi gets no love... his bair has no lag... easily can do bair into up tilt, rinse and repeat until you use one of his finishing moves...

I saw Ike's recovery messed up by light shield near the ledge..

I cant believe your join date is the same as mine

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lord Redwall:

What

the

****?

 

[Lootic]

Heres my tier list

top tier:
1.link
2.link
3.link
high tier:
4.link
5.link
6.link
7.link
8.link
9.link
10.link
11.link
mid tier:
12.link
13.link
14.link
15.link
16.link
17.link
18.link
19.link
20.link
21.link
22.link
23.link
low tier:
24.link
25.link
26.link
27. toon link
28.link
29.link
30.link
31.link
Bottom tier
32.link
33.link
34.link
35.link
36.link
37. link

lower than bottom tier:
54675412678568613. SHEIK!!!!!

 

[StripesOrBars]

Link is too high on that list.

 

[Ikural]

Honestly... Tier list are pointless, they grant no knowledge into actually playing the game... This game isn't about who can glitch the game or who has the most priority.. It's about out thinking your opponent. Speed is greater then power unless power can figure out how to slow down speed... It totally relies on your knowledge of the game...

Only thing I have to say is metaknight for bottom tier and yoshi for mid.

metaknight is just too light and almost no ways to ko to be that good... With all the power in this game he's lucky if he survives past 60%....

yoshi gets no love... his bair has no lag... easily can do bair into up tilt, rinse and repeat until you use one of his finishing moves...

I saw Ike's recovery messed up by light shield near the ledge..

Tiers are pointless? No insight?

Well, there's a lot of insight within the tier lists, you just have to analyze it. And really, 'mindgamez' are a part of the game, but so is general knowledge and tech skills.

MetaKnight may have very few killing moves, but MetaKnight is a strong character, most likely above low tier. And to be top the character has to be better than pretty good, they have to be exceptional. Maybe Yoshi can take mid, I don't know.

And... Light Shielding?

 

[armlx]

The composite list from last page is awful. All it shows is fan boyism (Pika and Sonic being top tier, though I can see Sonic developing into something later on), biases from last game (Jigs, C-falcon, Peach), and people not knowing how to counter simple techniques (Pit and Zelda, though Pit is legitimately good).

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I see Sonic as mid-tier. He has flaws yes, but people's refusal to go beyond those flaws is what makes me angry. And those that are bad with him tend to think in the same manner--he can't do the things most characters do, so he fails.

Even Sakurai noted Sonic is all about chasing foes off the stage.

 

[Subtle]

The composite list from last page is awful. All it shows is fan boyism (Pika and Sonic being top tier, though I can see Sonic developing into something later on), biases from last game (Jigs, C-falcon, Peach), and people not knowing how to counter simple techniques (Pit and Zelda, though Pit is legitimately good).

Pikachu fanboys? are you on crack?

 

[_Riot_]

Marth is still the best.

Pit, Ike, Rob, Pokemon Trainer, Dedede, Luigi, and possible all 3 spaceies are also very good from what I've seen.

Sonic and diddy seem to be ok as well.

I think the tier list is gonna come down to what characters have the least amount of lag(Marth, Pit, Diddy, ROB) and also, now B moves are gonna play a much bigger factor too it seems. And Dedede could, like Shiek did in melee, render alot of characters almost useless( it's doubtful).

It's too early to make a tier list anyway.

It's gonna be a while before an even close to accuarate list is even thought of.

Well i see alot of this being said everywhere and even though i love doodah more than ill ever love my own ******* son, i disagree. For the majority of the tourny-goers in the smash scene we should have a good idea of what character has what in terms of tier material. I mean give or take if someone figures out an interesting tech that makes that character more solid, which i really cant see happening to a dramatic extent ( except for maybe IC players finding an extremely abusable de-sync) . I can give my idea on what characters would go where in terms of catagory, but ill just give my ideas on "solid" characters.

Pit, ROB, G&W, Marth the 4 of them feel solid as hell in terms of high/top tier, ive also heard Toon Link from some respectable people, but i havent seen anyone really play him to understand.

From there you have like: All 3 Furry Spacies (lolzzzz yifffffffing pervs: Maverick), Zero-Samus, Pika, Lucas, Kirby, Dedededededede, Ike, and Diddy. These seem to hit if not high tier, then the upper part of mid-tier

Im a little unexperienced when it comes to: Lucario, Luigi, IC, and Mario (i need to see Green Mario's)

I think once people figure out wtf is going on with Olimar he wont be as big as an obstacle, i notice him annoying alot of players.
As for a character thats blowing my mind: i have to say Snake, sometimes i find him garbage due to the lag of his aerials, and other times i find him godly with the setup possibilities. Feel free to critique.

Doodah: we need to play, Sly picked up brawl now so hes back to his usual self, except instead of samus hes all about the Dedededededede

 

[Ikural]

The Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge Smash Scene is currently working on our tier list, debating about character placements and such. We will probably be able to post a projected tier list from our standpoint in due time. We used I.T.P.'s as a basis for it and are expanding from there.

I know we're a small community, but that's only because we're Canadian. We have some good insight usually.

 

[Holmboy]

My attempt at a tier list.

Top:
Marth
Toon Link
Wolf

Upper:
Ike
Falco
Fox
Sonic
Peach
Sheik
Pit
Captain Olimar
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
R.O.B.

Middle:
Lucario
Squirtle
Zelda
Meta Knight
Snake
Kirby
Link
Mr. Game & Watch
Luigi
Ness
Lucas
Charizard
Ice Climbers

Low:
Captain Falcon
Mario
Samus
Wario
Ivysaur
Jigglypuff

Bottom:
Ganondorf
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Yoshi

 

[Zellsfalco]

really tho, a mass majority of wins will come from counter character selection. with each character, there are different strategies, making there be less advantage for one character overall. characters on this game are way too balanced for there to be an accurate tier list.

 

[marthsword]

Honestly... Tier list are pointless, they grant no knowledge into actually playing the game... This game isn't about who can glitch the game or who has the most priority.. It's about out thinking your opponent. Speed is greater then power unless power can figure out how to slow down speed... It totally relies on your knowledge of the game...

Only thing I have to say is metaknight for bottom tier and yoshi for mid.

metaknight is just too light and almost no ways to ko to be that good... With all the power in this game he's lucky if he survives past 60%....

yoshi gets no love... his bair has no lag... easily can do bair into up tilt, rinse and repeat until you use one of his finishing moves...

I saw Ike's recovery messed up by light shield near the ledge..

MK Bottom Tier?
MT can't survive past 60%?
Light Shield?
And you joined in early 06?

 

[Zema]

"Tiers R 4 Queers"

*Smacks you with Gamecube controller*

 

[Omni]

Ike is good.
Marth is good.
Pit is good.
Metaknight is good.
Pikachu is good.
Luigi is good.
ROB is good.

 

[MASAHIROx]

toon link is good.

...XD

 

[Ikural]

______ is good.

Most people are good in Brawl, it's very different from Melee. What it's about now is seperating the great from the good, or in more adaptable terms, the good from the average.

 

[MASAHIROx]

yea i didn't know that thanks for enlightening me.

-.-

 

[BDawgPHD]

Ike is good.
Marth is good.
Pit is good.
Metaknight is good.
Pikachu is good.
Luigi is god.
ROB is good.

It's okay, I fixed it guys.

Honestly, I haven't seen enough, but i have played a little bit, and i noticed that they focused so hard on making all the characters not suck that they made everyone really good, and they also did a good job of making each move useful....one move isn't a great deal more useful than all the others, for the most part.

 

[A2ZOMG]

My attempt at a tier list.

Top:
Marth
Toon Link
Wolf

Upper:
Ike
Falco
Fox
Sonic
Peach
Sheik
Pit
Captain Olimar
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
R.O.B.

Middle:
Lucario
Squirtle
Zelda
Meta Knight
Snake
Kirby
Link
Mr. Game & Watch
Luigi
Ness
Lucas
Charizard
Ice Climbers

Low:
Captain Falcon
Mario
Samus
Wario
Ivysaur
Jigglypuff

Bottom:
Ganondorf
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Yoshi

Noticeable flaws in your list:

Firstly, all three Pokemon are decent. The Pokemon trainer overall is high tier at least.

Sonic and Peach are way too high.

Mario and Wario are both good, probably high tier. Bowser is not bottom tier. Luigi is top tier.

Zelda, G&W, and Olimar should be higher on your list. Especially G&W. G&W and Olimar are both probably top tier.

 

[BDawgPHD]

I think Meta Knight should be higher than dedede, but that's just me I guess. I also think Ganondorf should be a little higher on the tier list.

 

[Fizzmix]

In the last few pages it seems like people are giving more respect to R.O.B.

I honestly can't see him lower than High Tier.

His d-smash is beautiful for spamming with its large range, instant speed, good damage, and decent knockback at high %s. Its one of the best, if not the best, in the game, easily. Pikachu's seems to be better damage-wise, but R.O.B.'s has incredible range and is just as quick. His bread and butter skill, IMO.

His f-b, while pretty weak, reflects. While this isn't usually a big deal, it will certainly help against some Samuses and Snakes with huge projectiles.

His top and laser are excellent for spamming and racking up damage, while also both have respectable knockback (I've killed many times with a strong top to the face at a ~120% opponent).

His f-tilt is perfect for setting up his f-airs to run them off the level.

He has a solid spike.

His recovery is the best in the game letting him chase, attack, jump, attack, up-b, attack, up-b, etc. He can't really be edgeguarded.

I see edgeguarding and spiking as the most important skills to develop in Brawl, because KO's are generally happening at higher %s. If in Melee you could KO someone with a f-smash at 100% on Final Destination and spike them consistently at 40%, in Brawl you can KO someone with a f-smash at 140% on Final Destination and still spike them consistently at 40%. Or at least this seems to be what I'm finding in the time I've had to play it since it was released.

R.O.B. has all of the tools to accel at this part of the game, and I feel that one of the main reasons he is rated fairly lowly sometimes is because of the weird timing of his 'blaster' moves (n-air, d-air, b-air, u-smash).

Another important thing to consider about Brawl is the reduced damage AND knockback from repeating the same moves. I feel that this also works in R.O.B.'s favour, as he clearly has kill moves (his 'blaster' moves, fully charged top) and damage racking moves (u-air, d-smash, f-tilt, u-tilt f-air, laser, top)

All in all, I see his f-smash and f-b as pretty weak (his f-smash's range is just short, it has decent KO power and damage though) but I find myself using all of his other moves regularly.

 

[stillsickwithit]

alright i've the played the game alot since it came out....tiers just don't exist anymore....every character has its pros and cons...its a very well balanced game.....the game just came out....is completely different from melee......i've tried out virtually every character out and i couldn't find 5 characters that were definitely top tier or high tier....a tier list is just not gonna happen....

take ike for example...alot of people think he's top tier material...but his lag is terrible and could easily be punished....simply by a spotdodge and he could get edge guarded pretty easily with people like meta knight or pit...but then again Ike is extremely powerful and has probably the best k.o priority out of everybody

sonic can't be top tier...he has bad ko potential....he has to rack up alot of damage before he can kill....then again he's the fastest in the game and can rush in and rush out like nothing

marth....is just average in my opinion.....he's just balanced and probably one of the easiest to use at this point

snake...is sort of hard to play with because he's so different.....but he's powerful and has good mindgames.....he can be edge guarded pretty easily.....

its simple...theres just no tiers.....is not melee....like marth in melee had awesome combo ability, good ko ability and could gimp alot of characters had good priority over almost every character...he was definitely top tier it was noticeable from the beggining...

basically every character is playable...theres not one or 4 characters that are really hard to win with....unlike in melee.....where pichu, kirby, mewtwo and bowser were generally players that would have a harder time winning that others.....this just can't happen in brawl..the creators even said it themselves...they were gonna make the game more balance...maybe later on....people will figure out who's slightly better than other characters....but even then it won't be enough to make a tier...end of story

 

[Laijin]

man. why does this thread still exist?
Everyone is good in brawl. The high tier characters you guys mention are just easier to play than other characters.
But everyone is good. Except for Link. That guy still sucks. Its like he got worst from being in Melee. Wheres his up-b? Oh wait. Its not there. He does'nt go anywhere with it. Whats the point of playing a character that has almost no chance of coming back to the stage? I mean..even Ike has better recovery than Link. And Ike's recovery blows hard c0ck.
I'll go as far as to say that Ness's recovery in melee is better than his. And Ness stays in the air for like 10 minutes before hitting himself. And when he does hit himself. He floats in the air for another 10 minutes just waiting to be hit. lol.
Link sux.

But still. I guess Tiers have to exist anyways. :|
Guilty Gear has tiers and that game is really well balanced. Holy Order Sol is bottom tier, but why did a HO Sol win a huge tournament? I think it was Evo.
lol.
So this tier list will be a pure popularity contest between who is the most popular character.

 

[Ikural]

There will always be tiers, because the characters are different. Many have said this and it is true. Two charactes with differences are... different, this gives one an advantage however small it may be.

The tier will not be like Melee where the top tier can utterly destroy the bottom tier with ease, which wasn't even quite the case, but Brawl's will be closer but there will be a difference.

Someone said earlier in the thread... "Tiers will exist as long as there's a fighter and people to play it."

 

[GLCH]

My vote for top tier

1. Lucas (He has to be number 1.. He's just too good!!!!)
2. Toon Link (Bair to spike?)
3. Pit (Ken Combo?)
4. Marth (Ken Combo?)
5. Meta (Ken Combo?)
6. Ike (Strong man)


People that I think I'll use
1. Pit
2. Marth
3. Meta
4. ROB
5. Lucas

 

[Enshoku]

There will always be tiers, because the characters are different. Many have said this and it is true. Two charactes with differences are... different, this gives one an advantage however small it may be.

The tier will not be like Melee where the top tier can utterly destroy the bottom tier with ease, which wasn't even quite the case, but Brawl's will be closer but there will be a difference.

Someone said earlier in the thread... "Tiers will exist as long as there's a fighter and people to play it."

you ****ing win times infinity^infinity

tiers will exist in any game with choices, kirby's costumes have tiers, WoW has tiers, you can tier two characters that are exactly alike except one has a frame that is 3 pixels longer. tiers exist in starcraft, minuscule they may be...

 

[thesage]

I'd like to know why u guys rate Ness so low. He's a decent character in brawl and is at least mid tier. I've placed pretty well with him at some tourneys. His pkt2 is a useable move now... I understand he is not high or top, but he's definitely mid tier IMO. He doesn't have that many bad matchups. I just want to know why you guys think this.

Could you answer this. I just want other people's opinions.

 

[Kratos says no]

Could you answer this. I just want other people's opinions.

It's not that he's necessarily really bad, its that most of the other characters are better.

Name a few characters that have been placed above ness in mentioned tier lists and say why they're worse than ness.

 

[zxcZ]

Pokemon Trainer is a great character, if you know how to use all 3 of them you will be happy. Toon link is also great he is fast and for someone his size he is pretty heavy. Rob is good, Pikachu is much better then he was in melee but he was still better in 64. Marth is good, Luigi is good. My point is most characters in brawl are good, there aren't any pichus in the game and we should all be happy about that haha.

 

[Zink]

Wolf is a massive beast.
Utilt kills and juggles, ftilt has a sweetspot and huge range, dtilt is unremarkable.
Usmash kills, big range, horizontal and vertical. Fsmash has Melee Marth's fsmash range, no joke. Dsmash is faster than most TILTS and is a KILL MOVE.
ALL his airs can be double full hopped, fair and bair kill, dair spikes, uair juggles. He can semi-WoP.
Only downside is bad throws and a recovery that isn't totally amazing.
High tier.

 

[supercake]

and it looks like lucario didn't inherit mewtwo's disease.

 

[Chrono Centaur]

PKMN Trainer is absolute, balanced ****. Squirtle can semi-WoP, and works wonders against big slow characters like Dedede or Bowser. Ivysaur is an absolute killing beast with insane throw range and a good projectile. Charizard is a walking flame tank who can survive for an incredibly long time with his glide/extreme priority recovery. Charizard is one of the best - most of his moves have insane priority/range, his Usmash covering his whole head and providing an amazing buffer against other attacks.

Also, Bowser is mid-tier. I've been playing him against my friends and he works against some characters, but not others. Olimar's pretty good, too.

 

[pm knight0]

I love wolf, I think he's definitely going to be high, if not top. Falco is also one of my favorites, despite the ner***e. Falco will most likely be mid to high.

 

[Patinator]

Wolf is a massive beast.
Utilt kills and juggles, ftilt has a sweetspot and huge range, dtilt is unremarkable.
Usmash kills, big range, horizontal and vertical. Fsmash has Melee Marth's fsmash range, no joke. Dsmash is faster than most TILTS and is a KILL MOVE.
ALL his airs can be double full hopped, fair and bair kill, dair spikes, uair juggles. He can semi-WoP.
Only downside is bad throws and a recovery that isn't totally amazing.
High tier.

[/memorize]

All this Wolf is high/top tier talk makes me happy.

Now. I've finally gotten my hands on the game. I don't have EVERY character, and haven't played the ones I do have equally, but I'll post some of the ones I think are better than average, list the pros and cons I've seen etc.

Meta Knight

Jeez. His sword is lightning fast, his recovery is one of the best, and he can easily edgeguard far away and make it back. Even an Up-B edgeguard can work out. He's just light, and only has about two killing moves. But he's also pretty fast for a puffball in armor.

R.O.B.

ROB's heavy, moderately fast, his Robo Beam is a fantastic projectile, even if it isn't charged fully, since it's fast. He has several finishers and good aerials, can reflect projectiles, and has a rather good recovery. He does have a FEW laggy moves, and it doesn't look like his Down B is worth much. But I don't use it that often, so...

Pit

Arrows are fast and don't need charging to be spammable. Nice recovery, though easily knocked out of it. Has TWO reflecting moves, and some nice KO attacks. However, he's kinda light.

Pikachu

Great Up-Smash as usual, his Thunder has about twice the vertical range as in Melee, meaning he can use the "Thunder Spike" from 64 now. His Down Smash is like Peach's in Melee. Forward Smash is powerful. And overall speedy. Great recovery. But, he's light as well.

This is all I can type as of now...

 

[Var]

I would probably put Wolf in high, due to the iffy/trixy nature of his recovery. This is personal opinion of course, but I've noticed that Wolf's recovery always likes to fall a little too short. Beyond that, though, he's solid.

 

[Loops]

I honestly believe Captain Olimar has to be top tier IMO,
he has the farthest grapple range, deadly smashes all grabs are good, great combo ability,
powerful projectiles and his weight is similar to marios. Only flaw is recovery and to be gimped otherwise hes an amazing player.

 

[Brianc608]

I am relatively new to Melee, brand new to Brawl (as we all are), and new to these forums, but I think all of this talk of tiers is interesting...

The developers of Brawl obviously spent a LOT of time trying to make sure their game was as balanced as possible. The vast differences in "tier lists" posted in this thread begins to confirm that the game is in fact well balanced (at least more so than Melee).

I know it is a much different game, but I am used to playing "Magic the Gathering" (the card game) competitively which is a VERY balanced game. In many formats, cards are banned when they are considered too "broken" so that no one or two decks will dominate tournaments. Because of this balance, no decks are considered "top tier" or "low tier", deck choices are based on the metagame they will be played. Example: If a player believes a certain deck will be heavily played, they will use a deck that has a good game against the heavily played deck.

I would not be upset if "tiers" never develop, as it would reflect positively on the development that went into the game. Character selection would still be strategic as each character will still have good and bad matchups. In Melee, the obvious existence of tiers meant that some characters were rarely played, effectively decreasing the number of characters in the game. Hopefully we don't see that this time around.