Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Kirby M.D.]

Some people are putting way too many characters in the high and top sections of thier tier lists.
There's no way that more then 3 or 4 charcters could be top, and no way that more than 5 or 6 characters can be high.

High implies that they are better than average, and in case you didn't realize, having 50% of characters in the high section implies that that is the average, in which case the high tier is actually mid, and the top tier would be split into a new high and a new top.

Just watch how many you're placing within each section, because some of these are simply illogical.

True, but there can be a great deal of characters that are varying degrees of above-averageness. The terms "Top" and "High" are a bit misleading for this one; I prefer letter grades like Guilty Gear XX and more recent fighting game tiers. It shows the general level of aptitude of characters more easily in my opinion. It also allows for a better grasp on character dynamics; a low tier character in game X could be anywhere from a C+ to an F grade.

 

[The Mediator]

ITP, I think your tier list is good, but I don't quite agree with your placement of Zelda, for reasons that were previously discussed.

Edit: O ya, and I think that Pika should be higher, too. He's gotten buffs on like... everything.

 

[wakka444]

@Kirby.MD. i think thats a great idea, grading would make so much more sense lol

 

[armlx]

After another day of play, ITP's list seems pretty good, though Sheik and Fox seem way too low and I still don't get the PT and Luigi hype.

 

[NJzFinest]

This thread is getting dumb.

Zelda>Sheik

DK=/=low tier, it's just that he's the most unpopular character in the smash series (fact), so none of you bother playing him/attempt to learn him.

I'm going to wait until the actual Smash Back Room makes a list for 2008, or at least when there's much more tournament results to took at.

*unsubcribes*

 

[Var]

Beyond what has been already said about Zelda, Ike, Falco/Fox, etc, I.T.P., I am curious about the lower placing of Lucario and Pikachu.

Pikachu is whoretornado Mach2 with plenty of killing ability and a decent->good recovery. Given some of his moves are... well slow and leave him wide open, but there is plenty of gold to be found in the rest of his moveset.

Lucario, while quirky, can also be frightening like a well used Pikachu. His area of effect attacks (both front and back) give him a pretty solid defense on his slow ground smashes. His short hop dair has amazing priority (or maybe I'm just insane/blind) and his arials are all decent (given some of them suck). His b-> can chain for a decent percentage on many characters (especially fat ones) and serves for a decent approach (given its nothing like MK for instance). He can camp with his ball, especially at high percentages as it charges more quickly and becomes stronger.
But, then I can see his faults as well, he's slow as balls for most of his kill moves and his mechanic is quirky to say the least and ineffective against things like Ike or DDD, unless, of course, you abuse this games crazy DI. In practice, I've honestly found his nair and nground to be more effective than his slow smashes (bar uair and dair which depends on priority matchups).

Beyond that, and what has already been said, I think its a pretty good starting list. And I agree that the balance in brawl is currently very well done. I wouldn't be surprised if the tiers eventually flux between quite a few characters due to the countering nature of character A to B through flavor of the months.

Woo finally registered to this forum... after reading san four years in the shadows.

 

[Viscano]

Here's my thoughts from what I've experienced.

Top Tier

1. Marth
2. Wolf
3. Lucario

High Tier

4. Fox
5. Pit
6. Ike
7. Dedede
8. Pikmin & Olimar
9. Meta Knight

Mid Tier

10. Charizard
11. Squirtle
12. Zamus
13. Falco
14. GaW
15. Lucas
16. R.O.B.
17. Snake
18. Sonic
19. Pikachu
20. Diddy Kong
21. Luigi
22. Sheik

Low Tier

23. Mario
24. Ice Climbers
25. Zelda
26. Ness
27. Peach
28. Wario
29. Samus
30. Link
31. Captain Falcon

Bottom Tier

32. Yoshi
33. Bowser
34. Ganondorf
35. DK
36. Jigglypuff

-sigh- This took forever. I think I got everybody?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Here's my thoughts from what I've experienced.

Top Tier

1. Marth
2. Wolf
3. Lucario

High Tier

4. Fox
5. Pit
6. Ike
7. Dedede
8. Pikmin & Olimar
9. Meta Knight

Mid Tier

10. Charizard
11. Squirtle
12. Zamus
13. Falco
14. GaW
15. Lucas
16. R.O.B.
17. Snake
18. Sonic
19. Pikachu
20. Diddy Kong
21. Luigi
22. Sheik

Low Tier

23. Mario
24. Ice Climbers
25. Zelda
26. Ness
27. Peach
28. Wario
29. Samus
30. Link
31. Captain Falcon

Bottom Tier

32. Yoshi
33. Bowser
34. Ganondorf
35. DK
36. Jigglypuff

-sigh- This took forever. I think I got everybody?

You have Zelda lower than Sheik, no Kirby, Toon Link or Ivysaur and DK at bottom? FAIL!

 

[Enshoku]

Here's my thoughts from what I've experienced.

Top Tier

1. Marth
2. Wolf
3. Lucario

High Tier

4. Fox
5. Pit
6. Ike
7. Dedede
8. Pikmin & Olimar
9. Meta Knight

Mid Tier

10. Charizard
11. Squirtle
12. Zamus
13. Falco
14. GaW
15. Lucas
16. R.O.B.
17. Snake
18. Sonic
19. Pikachu
20. Diddy Kong
21. Luigi
22. Sheik

Low Tier

23. Mario
24. Ice Climbers
25. Zelda
26. Ness
27. Peach
28. Wario
29. Samus
30. Link
31. Captain Falcon

Bottom Tier

32. Yoshi
33. Bowser
34. Ganondorf
35. DK
36. Jigglypuff

-sigh- This took forever. I think I got everybody?

35+1(ZSS)+1(shiek)+2(ivy,char)=39

 

[I.T.P]

Ok, It seems to me that people are thinking like I was in my last list, and not like they should think, you have to realize, this game has too many good\powerfull characters or specific strategies for characters, so much so, that the average characters seem greatly buffed in comparison to their melee self, but in the actual comparison to other characters in this game, they are only average.
this is why Pikachu,Lucario,Ike and Zelda are where they are, this is where I felt they rank against the ones placed above them. I am personaly lacking in knowledge about Kirby,Fox and Falco, so I may be very wrong about those. I still think that although DK has some options, move decay will slaughter him, and he lacks seriously in most areas, making him very bad compared to the rest of the cast.

about shiek, having played and seen what shiek can do, I definately feel a huge drop in her potential from SSBM, so much so, that I felt she deserves low tier.

I do agree Grade ratings might be better, in that case change my list categories to SS,S,A,B,C and keep it as it is, It'll look better that way, I'll even do this myself.

SS Rating:
1.Luigi
2.Marth
3.DDD
4.Olimar
5.PT
6.Toon link

S Rating:
7.Meta knight
8.Diddy
9.Pit
10.Wolf
11.Zamus
12.GaW

A Rating:
13.R.O.B
14.Zelda
15.Ice Climbers
16.Ike
17.Snake
18.Lucas
19.Falco
20.Mario
21.Wario
22.Peach
23.Lucario
24.Pikachu
25.Kirby

B Rating:
26.Sonic
27.Fox
28.Bowser
29.Ness
30.Samus
31.Link
32.Shiek

C Rating:
33.Falcon
34.Gannon
35.Yoshi
36.DK
37.Jigglypuff


This Represents character potential much better IMO, and btw, character potential is the reason I put PT at SS, even though I feel his pokemon are SS,S and A\B respectively, and that's becasue stock loss -> Change makes it so you can't realistically main one of them, and the potential of knowing when and how to swap to stop both stamina and move decay, has the potential of being very very strong.

same goes for Olimar BTW, the fact he has 5 diffrent contralllable variations for most of his moves make him one of the highest potential characters in this game.

I'd also like to see more people using both zelda and shiek, or double maining Samus\Zamus in order to switch after killing. this might make very interesting matches.

now, onwards to specific arguments:

armlx, watch some void vids in my sig, I'll doubt you still won't get the luigi hype after seeing them.

Also, I'd like people thinking that specific characters(except the fox,falco,kirby Issue) need to be placed higher than I've put them, to tell me why they feel their potential is higher than that of those above them, via comparison, and not why their individual potential is high.

about fox,falco and kirby, I seriously need to watch matches of good players playing those, anyone got some?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly bro Falco is top tier no lie.

Also you should just combine SS and S since they are all compareable.

Anyway, let me explain why Falco is top tier.

He has good tilts. F-tilt is fast and safe with decent knock back. D-tilt is still solid, but it's not a kill move anymore. U-tilt is just for set-ups and to get them in the air.

His aerials are solid. His Nair is pretty safe on block and has no land lag. So he can SH Nair and if they block he can roll away or he could jab combo. I have done this myself. He could also shine. Fair is mostly just a move to use in the air to get in some extra damage. It's not an approach. Bair is still good. Fast with decent power. Can around 145ish. Falco can still gimp with it and he still recovers quickly from it. Uair is now a solid kill move. Can kill around 130ish. Fast and strong. Dair spikes in the opening frames now like the PAL version of Melee. Still very fast. He can use it to approach, but Nair is bit a better IMO.

All of Falco's smashes are really good. U-smash is a good kill move now. Starts to kill around 125. Still very fast and seems to be safe on block. D-smash is as fast as ever. More useful as a tool to get opponents away from Falco then as a reliable killer. It starts to kill around 150ish. F-smash is his main killer. People say it looks wierd. I think it looks awesome. This kills around 115ish. It's EXTREMELY safe on block and his good speed.

Falco has an awesome jab combo. Fast and reliable. It's one of the best ones IMO. He can't be grabbed out of on hit like some of the others and it does decent damage for a neutral A combo. Plus it looks awesome with an awesome name. 100 Blade Spin FTW!!!

Falco still has good specials. Shine has changed, but it still reflects stuff. Falco kicks it now and it knocks opponent's away. Still comes out fast, so I'm thinking one frame start-up.

Falco Phantasm is there and has less land lag. Mew2King once told me that it's imossible to edgeguard Falco and now I see why. Phantasm is so fast and doesn't really leave Falco vulnerable, and since he jumps so high, his recovery has been aided greatly by Brawl's physics. His recovery is actually decent now.

Firebird is still the worst of his specials. Not much to say except now it does multiple hits to an opponent instead of one single hit.

Falco still has his lasers. Approaching with lasers isn't that great of an idea since it really doesn't lead to anything. Falco can Short Hop Double Laser. The first laser goes high and ther second goes low enough to hit a standing opponent. An opponent can be crouch to avoid them though. Falco's standing laser can be crouched as well, and his shine can be crouched too.

Falco is a very different character now. Instead of using lasers and shines in his offense he uses them as defensive/keep away tools. I find myslef using standing lasers alot more just as a frustration tactic or a quick way to build damage and then shining when my opponent rushes me carelessly. I use SHDL as lock down tactic and keep them grounded and on the defensive.

Falco can also chain grab/ grab combo off of his D-throw. I don't know how many characters it works on, but it seems to work on quite a few of them. After he can't CG them anymore he can use a dash attack or a SH Dair or Dash to JC U-smash. The CG can do quite a bit of damage before he can't do it anymore depending on the character. He bring Snake from 0 to 50 something before he ahs to do something else to end the cg.

Falco can also cancel his dash attack to an U-smash in the opening frames of the dash attack. So he could do a CG into dash attack cancelled U-smash for a nice chunk of damage.

Honestly Falco is very different. His whole playstyle has changed as well as his movelist. But he still a monster. Just a different type of monster.

 

[I.T.P]

can you show me some good vids of this? I might reconsider putting him at 16. or 15. and pushing the rest one drop below

still doesn't sound like he has anything too good or too annoying to justify anything above that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You don't need vids, but you could go to Falco forums and find this stuff most likely.

The stuff is easy to do though. You could do it yourself in under an hour.

I know there are characters better then Falco, but I honestly feel like he is stil la beast and good enough to be top tier.

Not like say Fox who really doesn't have all that much going on for him.

Ask yourself this..

Why is Marth top tier?

He is pretty solid overall, but he can't do anything super crazy. Falco defintely has more tricks than Marth and alot of the other top tiers too.

So why shouldn't Falco be top tier then.

He is just as solid as the other top tiers and actually has tricks up his sleeves.

 

[I.T.P]

You don't need vids, but you could go to Falco forums and find this stuff most likely.

The stuff is easy to do though. You could do it yourself in under an hour.

I know there are characters better then Falco, but I honestly feel like he is stil la beast and good enough to be top tier.

Not like say Fox who really doesn't have all that much going on for him.

Ask yourself this..

Why is Marth top tier?

He is pretty solid overall, but he can't do anything super crazy. Falco defintely has more tricks than Marth and alot of the other top tiers too.

So why shouldn't Falco be top tier then.

He is just as solid as the other top tiers and actually has tricks up his sleeves.

Marth has very strong comboability and edge guarding, and has tremendous KO potential on a lot of his attacks.

basically, while falco maybe overall good at everything, marth is overall great, just not OMFG broken great.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't think Marth has anything as good as Falcos chain grab in terms of raw damage.

And honestly I think Marth is top for reaons beyond comboability. His ridiculous amount of KO options being the main one.

Anyway the question was rhetorical.

I know very well why Marth is top.

And yes you have to be broken to be top.

Just cuz your not ban worthy doesn't mean your not broken.

 

[I.T.P]

I don't think Marth has anything as good as Falcos chain grab in terms of raw damage.

And honestly I think Marth is top for reaons beyond comboability. His ridiculous amount of KO options being the main one.

Anyway the question was rhetorical.

I know very well why Marth is top.

And yes you have to be broken to be top.

Just cuz your not ban worthy doesn't mean your not broken.

Broken means too good, when you have 12 too good characters, you can't really call them all broken...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why not?

Brokenness has nothing to do with numbers.

It's just the quality of the character.

 

[UnSaxon51]

O ya, and I think that Pika should be higher, too. He's gotten buffs on like... everything.

Maybe not quite everything but he definitely got a pretty big boost. Mid to high tier is my guess.

Specifically, all his aerial moves are slower (but then again, that might just be because the whole game plays slower) and Uair is MUCH harder to use for spiking.
However! On the other side of the coin, his smashes and specials are off the charts.
Dsmash is as bad as Peach's used to be in terms of combo-ability and trapping (not damage, though). The hit box on it is absolutely ridiculous.
Fsmash has more range, but launches more upward than outward.
Usmash is just as fast and just as deadly.
Thunder! Good God, now that it comes out and recovers faster, it's even easier to launch someone into a cloud of death.
Skull Bash is about the same offensively (as in it will hurt if you actually connect somehow), but its recovery ability has increased dramatically. With proper height, he can cover the full length of Final Destination with two uncharged uses.

Keep in mind, I don't like playing as Pikachu and haven't since Smash64, but he is definitely a force to be reckoned with. Dangerous in the right hands.

 

[Break]

I agree, Pikachu should be higher. It's ridiculously easy to kill off the top with Pikachu's Thunder now that the height of the cloud has been increased.

 

[Ikural]

I must say, I love how these created tier lists are progressing. Of course we don't have any flawless list yet, that would be an illogical expectation, but we deffinantly have people creating lists that are, in the long run, very good.

I'm just hoping that you have put R.O.B. too high, I have nothing to argue against his spot, I just hope he doesn't keep it. I'd much rather play a lower mid character, but it's not like I'll change my main for the list, I just don't like playing really high on the tier list characters. ^^

I don't understand the Luigi as #1 placement, but I'm not asking you to defend that I.T.P.. I'll play him today, and see if I can agree. If not, that's okay, I'm not one to challenge your thoughts when I have not done any research into the character and have very limited experience with or against. I think a Luigi in top would be a quite amazing thing.

 

[Nemireck]

I don't think we're in any position to be ranking characters in 5 tiers this early on in Brawl's lifecycle... I'm liable to trust 3-tier lists that allow for a lot of shaking and moving as more techniques are discovered and the intricacies of the game are discovered. For instance, many people are saying DDD and Ike are going to be top tier this game, but both prequels have shown that once metagames are developed, speed trumps power in Smash Bros every time. Yes, Ike can KO at 50%, but he needs to land some damaging blows first, and quick characters in the hands of good players may be too much for Ike or DDD to compete. Are they high-tier worthy as opposed to top tier material? My initial playing experiences tell me yes, they are deffinately useful characters compared to 64's DK, and Melee's DK/Bowser. DK is even worse than both those characters in brawl, so to place him anywhere above middle tier is confusing to me as well. It's also confusing to me why people keep placing the individual PT pokemon in their place... They switch automatically when they die, and pros are going to learn when to switch pokemon to suit any given situation, it's not like the Zelda/Sheik decision where you respawn as the character you died as... and actually, with Zelda getting buffed pros may find there are situations where you WANT to switch back and forth between the characters, which DOES affect tier-placement. It's great to discuss each pokemon's place in the tier, but Pokemon Trainer, by virtue of his adaptability, can probably be assumed in the high-tier bracket.

What I LOVE about Brawl so far is that there are so many characters that seem to able to compete with eachother at a high level. It took about a week of playing Melee to realize that Marth, Fox, and Falco were going to be heads and shoulders above the rest of the crowd, in Brawl, this is not the case.

As far as my personal opinion on Tiers are at the moment... (not in order, it's my feeling these should be loosely based to allow for much discussion without the "OMG, Nemireck, you n00b, Fox should be higher than Toon Link!" comments)

Characters I think show potential to be high or top tier:

Toon Link
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Ike
King Dedede
Olimar
Marth
Sheik
Peach
Luigi
ROB
Lucas
Pokemon Trainer (Squirtle, Charizard)
Pit
MetaKnight
Mario
Diddy Kong
Peach

Characters that are probaby going to end up middle-tier, but may sneak into high tier:

Pokemon Trainer (Ivysaur)
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Zamus
Samus
Snake (this guy could place anywhere from Mid to Top tier, I have no idea, but I see HUGE potential in Snake if anyone learns to use him to his full ability, there's never been a character quite like him in Smash)
Lucario
Kirby
Pikachu
Captain Falcon
Bowser
Wario

Characters that so far prove tough to use:

DK
Jigglypuff
Game and Watch
Sonic
Link
Yoshi
Gannon

 

[I.T.P]

Nemireck, your placement of GaW completely screws your list, look at my youtube profile in my sig for great GaW gameplay and learn your mistake.

Ikural, you too, go to my youtube profile in my sig and watch "Into the void" and some luigi matches, and you'll understand.

Luigi has the smallest amount of lag I've ever seen on aerials, he can do them so quickly it's painful just to look at, and if you decay your moves, he can do OMFG combos, Void combo'd my marth from 0 to 91 with luigi Uairs, it's that strong.

all of his aerials moves are MLAs(Minimal Lage Aerials) and they're all freakishly strong and comboable, his recovery is near-impossible to edge hog, tornado recovery sends you up half the stage and can even be used to kill O_o, his grab game is pretty good, and he can chain grab some characters.

he's got a really annoying Jab game, especially with CC Jabs, and he can combo jabs into fire-punch for a 51% kill(AKA Ken combo, ala street fighter Ken's Shoryouken!)

he's averagely weighed, has OMFG beastly edge guarding skills, a good Usmash, a good Fsmash, a spammable comboable Utilt, I can't even see one thing that's wrong with him.

they actually made him too good to be true, the only way I can even try to keep up with void's luigi is by abusing DDD's broken grab range,Regicide and Gordos...

 

[RottenMango]

I have serious doubts that game & watch will be at the bottom of the tierlist this time around. All his airials have solid priority, amazing recovery, they fixed his shield AND his grab game is absolutely nasty (better than 3d's imo).

 

[Nemireck]

I've played as G+W for all of 5 minutes, I'll admit. See? This is why I list characters loosely! ^_^ I'll check out the G+W video right now for sure.

 

[Ikural]

I.T.P., I wasn't asking you to defend it, but alas... You did an excellent job nonetheless. I think I will check it out now.

And I must agree that Game and Watch deserves probably mid tier given the experience I do have. But hey, who am I to argue? I'll leave that to anyone who feels like it's an argueable point, because it's not the largest of my worries.

 

[I.T.P]

I.T.P., I wasn't asking you to defend it, but alas... You did an excellent job nonetheless. I think I will check it out now.

And I must agree that Game and Watch deserves probably mid tier given the experience I do have. But hey, who am I to argue? I'll leave that to anyone who feels like it's an argueable point, because it's not the largest of my worries.

I know you didn't, but I wanted to fix your misconception of him anyway

I'd say that except the fact ICs lack in their ground game, all of the unique WTF characters were made really good this time, I was surprised to see the huge force they've been given.

 

[Ikural]

Hm, that was an excellent video. *Subscribes*

Well, I think Luigi definantly has potential and it's good to see that you aren't overlooking the once low tier character.

I'm curious as to how he'll do once the metagame developes.

 

[I.T.P]

Hm, that was an excellent video. *Subscribes*

Well, I think Luigi definantly has potential and it's good to see that you aren't overlooking the once low tier character.

I'm curious as to how he'll do once the metagame developes.

Thanks, I hope we'll make more videos soon basically both me and Void are uploading into that profile, to abuse the OMFG amount of subscriptions I got from the SSBB Preview vids.

 

[absox]

well bowser is still horrible.

This is ********.
Tiers don't even matter in brawl. Everyone is good.
Edit: In this case, it seems most of your arguments are just based on who is easiest to play as since the game just came out.

 

[LuLLo]

My guess is that slower characters like Ike, Bowser and D3 will be MUCH higher on the tier list this time around, I think because of the ''almost no combo'' enviroment Brawl has, the speedier characters will have 1 advantage less than the slower characters, plus the slower characters have SAF and very hard attacks (Ike) and good specials (Bowsers' and Ike's side-B)...
Ganondorf and DK, however, may seemingly be lower than the other heavyweights, from what I've seen at least...
As for Snake, I think he'll be the new Captain Falcon of Brawl, not combo-wise, but match-up wise, Captain Falcon stood really well against high-tier characters, but his counters were low-tier characters...
I think Snake will have this thing also, and he will imo end up somewhere high-tier, like Falcon was...

 

[Ikural]

Well, it was a good quality video, and where there's good quality videos, there tends to be good quality Smashers.

But I digress, when a real tier list is released, most likely by the BRoomers, then we will truly see. Until then, this thread is a great thing. But too many people are responding in a "OMG, Nemireck, you n00b, Fox should be higher than Toon Link!" way. If you are going to respond, it should be a mature response in which you try to help the disscussion. Because flaming doesn't do anything other than p*ss people off. It's been getting better, but please refrain from responding like that people.

And also, the oppinion that a tier list shouldn't even be worried about right now has been stated and overstated. I get it, some people don't think a tier list is necessary right now. Well, the discussion is beneficial, and it won't stop from a few people thinking like that. If that's your oppinion then I respect that completely, but this thread probably isn't where you should reside then.

 

[I.T.P]

Well, it was a good quality video, and where there's good quality videos, there tends to be good quality Smashers.

Hey we're all Jewish, can we not be good quality?[/sarcasm]

but seriously, we've all been playing smash melee for years, we actually had over 23 tournaments in it, and we place very well in other countries in the chances we get to play them.

 

[armlx]

ITP, did. I can see where Luigi could be good, but I definitely feel you are allowing your personal biases to come into play here. I don't really know what else I can say here as I definitely am not qualified to argue the fine points of Luigi, simply that it seems like a lot of the things Marth and DDD do are much higher priority, higher range, and much higher power. He's definitely not bad per say, not in the slightest, I just feel his value on your list is inflated by a few slots.

Fair enough on the character potential for PT, but its the only argument I keep hearing. Sure, he can create favorable matchups in theory vs a lot of things, but all his forms except Squirtle are a bit sub-par IMO (compared to top tier). He's trying to do 3 things and only does one really well.

BTW, on Olimar, at least to me, it appears the order of his Pikmin is fairly irrelevant except in one or two scenarios. 1st is using his B-forward early on you don't want a purple one as the DoT is better, and the 2nd is at moderately high percentages you want the low knock back on as it kills a few percent later. The difference between the others is pretty much null most of the time. Though Olimar is just generally strong, so he definitely deservesa high tier.

Fox and Sheik: Still rediculously fast for both, one of the keys for Sheik is the fact people can do sliding up smashes. The nerfs merely took away their most broken moves, but even without those they were evidently more powerful than most of the Melee characters and I don't see what would change that here. I'm not arguing they deserve to be classified with Marth and DDD, but I don't see any of your A class and below except IC's doing exceptionally broken things either, and in a fair fight their sheer speed combined with the fact their attacks are all actually good means they beat those people just by doing everything they do better vs them.

 

[Var]

Hm, that was an excellent video. *Subscribes*

Well, I think Luigi definantly has potential and it's good to see that you aren't overlooking the once low tier character.

I'm curious as to how he'll do once the metagame developes.

With the changes to brawl's basic method of gameplay a lot of the old characters that were aweful are now contendors. As was said, the slower speed allows slower characters to compete with wtffast characters. Though, none compare to Luigi's boost, for now anyway. A lot of players are still shying away from the old bad characters because they want to use 'top tier' and learn that and be 'good'. Which is kinda depressing. So there may be more good old characters (G&W for another example) but few are using them, therein giving them less publicity.

If I could I would cite videos for Pikachu but I have yet to see any that are comparable to Void's luigi (be that from presentation to simple reputation of the parties involved) and most of my experiences with it have been local and no one really wishes to bother recording their gameplay here. Same applies to Lucario.

On a curious side note, how does Luigi's air game compare to Lucario's on a competative level? I would trust my own results for it (that due to the range Lucario dominates) but I don't hold near as much water as others.

Edit: Armlx, I know, at least for Sheik, that she's lost a good bit of her killing potential with the coming of Brawl. While she is still formidable she's simply not as potent as other A characters. The same is true for fox, though they did give him new kill moves so I'd agree that he needs to go a little higher.

 

[I.T.P]

ITP, did. I can see where Luigi could be good, but I definitely feel you are allowing your personal biases to come into play here. I don't really know what else I can say here as I definitely am not qualified to argue the fine points of Luigi, simply that it seems like a lot of the things Marth and DDD do are much higher priority, higher range, and much higher power. He's definitely not bad per say, not in the slightest, I just feel his value on your list is inflated by a few slots.

Fair enough on the character potential for PT, but its the only argument I keep hearing. Sure, he can create favorable matchups in theory vs a lot of things, but all his forms except Squirtle are a bit sub-par IMO (compared to top tier). He's trying to do 3 things and only does one really well.

BTW, on Olimar, at least to me, it appears the order of his Pikmin is fairly irrelevant except in one or two scenarios. 1st is using his B-forward early on you don't want a purple one as the DoT is better, and the 2nd is at moderately high percentages you want the low knock back on as it kills a few percent later. The difference between the others is pretty much null most of the time. Though Olimar is just generally strong, so he definitely deservesa high tier.

Fox and Sheik: Still rediculously fast for both, one of the keys for Sheik is the fact people can do sliding up smashes. The nerfs merely took away their most broken moves, but even without those they were evidently more powerful than most of the Melee characters and I don't see what would change that here. I'm not arguing they deserve to be classified with Marth and DDD, but I don't see any of your A class and below except IC's doing exceptionally broken things either, and in a fair fight their sheer speed combined with the fact their attacks are all actually good means they beat those people just by doing everything they do better vs them.

Congrats on making a very good post and a very valid argument, I regard your opinions very highly due to that, but please use the ENTER key a bit more next time

the order of olimar's pikmin gives him 5 diffrent variations to many of his moves, which are effective in varying levels in varying situations, if that's not the biggest control potential in this game, I don't know what is.

I'm lacking knowledge and info on fox, but shiek is definately A class tops, and B class probably. he is lacking in too many fields IMO, and his nerfs are some of the biggest I've seen so far.

Luigi is basically the king of priority, his moves override things you'd never imagine them to be able to. it's scary frankly. I know I might have been a bit biased putting him above marth and DDD, but that remains to be seen

PT is also about potential usage, even though Char and Ivy are not as good as squirtle, changing to a fresh character once you've decayed all of your important moves, and then KOing really easily using a zero'd out moveset, is a skill unique to the PT. and correct usage and practice can make you a true SS rank worthy pokemon master. It'll take time, but it's do-able and worth it.

 

[Ikural]

With the changes to brawl's basic method of gameplay a lot of the old characters that were aweful are now contendors. As was said, the slower speed allows slower characters to compete with wtffast characters. Though, none compare to Luigi's boost, for now anyway. A lot of players are still shying away from the old bad characters because they want to use 'top tier' and learn that and be 'good'. Which is kinda depressing. So there may be more good old characters (G&W for another example) but few are using them, therein giving them less publicity.

This is such a true statement, and one of the most annoying facts of competetive gaming. People float to the 'High tier' characters because they tend to do better with less work.

I'm by no means trashing people who play top tier characters, because with work even the top tier characters become excellent characters to play, but I do not think people should jump into the top tiers because when they do, at least for many lower level Smashers, they become dependant on the natural 'brokenness' and don't strive to compete with thier own skill or to develope an adequate playstyle. Finding the 'brokenness' or trying so d*mn hard to sompete with a character that shouldn't be able to is half the fun of competetive games, Melee included.

I mained Fox in Melee for the longest time, and he didn't really require any effort to compete with others. I was still a contender within my area to do well, but I didn't tend to practice or care really, because Fox wasn't very fun. When I switched to Falcon, Melee became fun. It was a fun like none I'd experienced in competetive gaming.

So if you're here, in this thread, to find out who's top and play them, I suggest you move on, to play who you find is fun. Because with work you can make a Mewtwo as strong as a Fox, in Melee's terms. BEcause really, playing Mewtwo is so much more cooler than playing Fox.

 

[Metzger]

I think most people are not giving Pikachu nearly enough credit. I'm not sure you guys realize just how buffed the new Pikachu is. He was a great character in Melee; the changes he got here make him pretty insane. Thunder is absurd, Quick Attack is one of the best spacing/positioning games out there right now, his Down-B stole all of Peach's mojo from Melee, D-Air and F-Air got very nice boosts and he is almost impossible to chain-grab. I think the only real "nerf" he received was a pretty slight reduction in KO power on U-Smash (which was pretty insane in Melee anyway). All around one of the most buffed characters in the transition to Brawl and he was not exactly bottom of the barrel to begin with. .

 

[kunte kente]

anyone who doesn't have pit in their top tier is a noob.

 

[Enshoku]

I think most people are not giving Pikachu nearly enough credit. I'm not sure you guys realize just how buffed the new Pikachu is. He was a great character in Melee; the changes he got here make him pretty insane. Thunder is absurd, Quick Attack is one of the best spacing/positioning games out there right now, his Down-B stole all of Peach's mojo from Melee, D-Air and F-Air got very nice boosts and he is almost impossible to chain-grab. I think the only real "nerf" he received was a pretty slight reduction in KO power on U-Smash (which was pretty insane in Melee anyway). All around one of the most buffed characters in the transition to Brawl and he was not exactly bottom of the barrel to begin with. .

that is almost a kirby sized buff, but neither of thier buffs compares to roy's. He's become so strong he had to change his hair color, paint his sword, and change his name to Ike to hide his identity.

edit: then I'm a n00b kunte, because toon link owns pit at almost everything.

 

[heytallman]

I think Marth, Wolf, and Pit are pretty close to the top.

Also, probably high or high in the middle tier would probably be ROB, Falco, Fox, and Pokemon Trainer.