Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[kunte kente]

that is almost a kirby sized buff, but neither of thier buffs compares to roy's. He's become so strong he had to change his hair color, paint his sword, and change his name to Ike to hide his identity.

edit: then I'm a n00b kunte, because toon link owns pit at almost everything.

no. you are full of lies. pit combos with alot of moves also he has nearly limitless recovery.

 

[Var]

anyone who doesn't have pit in their top tier is a noob.

Pit is high, not top. If not for anything other than because his recovery can be screwed over so easily... and his limited killing moves.

 

[Falling Whistness]

Not that this is a great indication of eventual tiers, but I think talking about tournament tiers at this point is premature anyway.

Here is the average so far of everyone's ratings in the "Your character ratings" thread:

1) Marth 8.51
2) Pit 8.41
3) Wolf 7.93
4) Diddy Kong 7.69
5) Fox 7.65
6) Captain Olimar 7.61
7) Meta Knight 7.59
8) Toon Link 7.56
9) King Dedede 7.55
10) Squirtle 7.54
11) Lucas 7.41
12) Ike 7.28
13) Falco 7.24
14) Sheik 7.20
15) Sonic 7.09
16) Lucario 7.04
17) Kirby 6.99
18) Pikachu 6.98
18) R.O.B. 6.98
20) Ivysaur 6.95
21) Mr. Game & Watch 6.80
22) Luigi 6.79
23) Zelda 6.72
24) Zero Suit Samus 6.69
25) Wario 6.66
26) Snake 6.59
27) Mario 6.45
28) Charizard 6.43
29) Ness 6.42
30) Samus 6.38
31) Peach 6.28
32) Bowser 6.04
33) Link 6.01
34) Jigglypuff 5.83
35) Donkey Kong 5.80
36) Captain Falcon 5.72
37) Yoshi 5.61
38) Ice Climbers 5.28
39) Ganondorf 5.01

 

[Darth Ace]

I think most people are not giving Pikachu nearly enough credit. I'm not sure you guys realize just how buffed the new Pikachu is. He was a great character in Melee; the changes he got here make him pretty insane. Thunder is absurd, Quick Attack is one of the best spacing/positioning games out there right now, his Down-B stole all of Peach's mojo from Melee, D-Air and F-Air got very nice boosts and he is almost impossible to chain-grab. I think the only real "nerf" he received was a pretty slight reduction in KO power on U-Smash (which was pretty insane in Melee anyway). All around one of the most buffed characters in the transition to Brawl and he was not exactly bottom of the barrel to begin with. .

Thank you!
I still refuse to beleive in Tiers as ranks for character power classes (Power levels, whatever you may choose to call them) but Pikachu is a powerful character.
Soniku is a lot better than I thought he'd be too.
Edit: Regarding Sonic, what took that **** so long to show up anyway? Fastest thing alive my arse.

 

[kunte kente]

... and his limited killing moves.

that is true though

 

[Deleted member]

Edit: misspost =0

haha ill just edit this post for what i think since i missposted here.sorry =0

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly I.T.P's list is the best.

I just don't like some placements on it.

I would say that it is 95% accurate.

And I don't like that the top tier has been divided. Makes the list look wierd and makes certain characters lok worse then they really are.

Plus I pretty much proved why Falco is top tier and all. His damage potential is high and he is an all around great character.

 

[Killer Tree]

Marth, Toon Link, Olimar for top tier.

 

[Popertop]

You aren't paying attention to the huge range nerf marth got, as well as his recovery nerf.
It makes him so much easier to play against.
Srsly, Olimar is way up there with Metaknight, and for the record MK has his Fsmash and Dsmash as kill moves, as well as ridiculous edgeguarding.
Kbai, Charizard is baller

 

[Emblem Lord]

Huge range nerf? Helost like two inches on his sword. Big deal.

Recovery nerf? In Brawl?

This does not compute.

 

[BigRick]

Recovery nerf? In Brawl?

This does not compute.

lol epic post

 

[Var]

Huge range nerf? Helost like two inches on his sword. Big deal.

Recovery nerf? In Brawl?

This does not compute.

Metaknight says Hi, as does anyone with a decent off stage game. Marth's recovery is much easier to edge guard now than before. His loss of range also makes him 'easier' to approach and forces him to come even 'closer' to campers.

 

[I.T.P]

his "range nerf" is very negligible considering his speed is now above 90% of the characters.

recovery nered? WTF? it goes just as high if not higher, it's faster, and it snaps to the edge. can you ask more?

I think that splitting the top part was neccesary, even though the S and SS rankings are very similiar in potential and stats, the average characters should be the big part, and not the above average. by splitting it, you make the average characters more apparent

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

During my research on the Brawl fighters, I did have a small thought on how the list would be like.

--------------------
Top Rank

Fox
Marth
Falco
Meta Knight
--------------------
High Rank

Samus
Captain Falcon
Peach
Sheik
Ganondorf
Zero Suit Samus
Lucario
Wolf
Sonic
--------------------
Average Rank

Mario
Link
Yoshi
Kirby
Pikachu
Ness
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Luigi
Jigglypuff
Mr. G&W
Squirtle
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Pit
Ike
Lucas
Olimar
R.O.B.
Toon Link
--------------------
Low Rank

Donkey Kong
Bowser
Wario
Ivysaur
Solid Snake
--------------------
Bottom Rank

King Dedede
--------------------

Overall I find Dedede to be the worst fighter. He's heavy, but super slow and is inferior to Bowser and Ganondorf in the power department. His third jump has problems too.

 

[MajinNecro69]

My ideas:
(Within tiers, order doesn't have much meaning, I'm not sure who the best within a tier is)

Top:
-Toon Link
-Wolf
-Pit
-Sonic
-Marth

High:
-Mario
-Olimar
-King Dedede
-Snake
-Falco
-Fox
-Mr. Game & Watch
-Pikachu
-Sheik
-Lucas
-Diddy

Middle:
-Lucario
-Pokemon Trainer
-Meta Knight
-Kirby
-Bowser
-Fox
-Zelda
-R.O.B.
-Wario
-Ike
-Ness
-Zero Suit Samus
-Donkey Kong
-Ganondorf

Low:
-Captain Falcon
-Peach
-Samus
-Link

Bottom:
-Yoshi
-Ice Climbers
-Jigglypuff

I predict Brawl to be the anti-Melee: Lots of characters in the upper echelons, few characters in the bottom (whereas Melee had a very bottom heavy tier list).

 

[Crazy Hobo]

I wanna make a list

Top
------
Fox
Marth
Wolf
MK
Pit
TLink

High
------
Ike
Falco
Sonic
D3
Olimar
Snake
Zelda
Shiek
Squirtle
Charizard
ZSS

Mid
-----
Ivysuar
Samus
Wario
Mario
Kirby
Luigi
ROB
Diddy
Lucario
Pikachu
Lucas
G&W

Low
-----
GDorf
Bowser
Ness
DK
CFalcon
Peach
Link

Bottom
---------
Yoshi
IC
Jiggs

 

[armlx]

MSGuy: I thought that about DDD at first too. Then I spent some time learning that his forward smash uncharged pretty much autokills at 50%, running A at 80% on an average weight class character. On top of this, he has ranged attacks, a long reach, high priority, amazing recovery, absurd chain throws.



ITP:

I don't deny Olimar can order his pikmin in an absurd number of ways, but I have found most of the time the order isn't too relevant beyond not wanting the white one 90% of the time.



Sheik's lack of killing moves worried me at first, but its not like all her smash moves are bad. The trick is figuring out how you are going to kill, then holding that attack back until it will kill them to avoid diminishing returns. If you don't do that Sheik is definitely where you placed her though.

Fox is similar, but he has a few more ways to kill and can do it earlier (90% pre-smash instead of 110%) with much better ways to ramp damage.

I definitely wouldn't put either above A class, but they definitely belong there, probably bumping down Pika and Kirby with Fox at the top of A class and Sheik in the middle.

Like I said, while neither does anything that breaks the average fundamental rules of the game (ie Marth's sword), they beat the other characters that don't by being better at their fair game than they are and even beat some that do by not caring about those aspects of their game.



Thank you for admitting you were a little biased in your Luigi placing. That being said, right behind DDD and Marth is probably right for him. Definitely better than the rest of the SS class by a long shot.

Basically it comes down to Marth just being far above average at everything and the best at several things, while DDD has a lot of aspects that are just beyond reasonable power levels . Luigi has a bit of both of these, but not enough one way or the other to make him better than those two.



On PT: I always forget how diminishing returns doesn't apply to him. That alone probably just proves me wrong.



In less important discussion, IMO Yoshi << Jiggs. Rollout mind games got about 20 times better this game as its harder to screw up and suicide, which is a least something I can say as a + for her. Yoshi I honestly got nothing good to say.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Wolf, TL, Meta, Pit and Marth are all Godly in my book.

 

[UnSaxon51]

Recovery nerf? In Brawl?

This does not compute.

LMAO! Sigged!

Because with work you can make a Mewtwo as strong as a Fox, in Melee's terms. BEcause really, playing Mewtwo is so much more cooler than playing Fox.

I approve this message. I just wish I was that good.

 

[BigRick]

During my research on the Brawl fighters, I did have a small thought on how the list would be like.

--------------------
Top Rank

Fox
Marth
Falco
Meta Knight
--------------------
High Rank

Samus
Captain Falcon
Peach
Sheik
Ganondorf
Zero Suit Samus
Lucario
Wolf
Sonic
--------------------
Average Rank

Mario
Link
Yoshi
Kirby
Pikachu
Ness
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Luigi
Jigglypuff
Mr. G&W
Squirtle
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Pit
Ike
Lucas
Olimar
R.O.B.
Toon Link
--------------------
Low Rank

Donkey Kong
Bowser
Wario
Ivysaur
Solid Snake
--------------------
Bottom Rank

King Dedede
--------------------

Overall I find Dedede to be the worst fighter. He's heavy, but super slow and is inferior to Bowser and Ganondorf in the power department. His third jump has problems too.

making cpus fight each other is NOT a good way to make a tier list

 

[dori.]

how the hell is sonic anywhere near high tier

at best he's low mid

and dedede bottom? ROFL

all i can say is dedede, TL are on top for sure, and DK and is mid at least

Lucario is solid mid.

 

[GarrettB]

In my oppinion in the right hands olimar has the potential to be top tier.

 

[Torgo]

I think that we have to base this on averages. There are a few characters that are all over the map like Dedede who everyone thinks differently of, some say high some say bottom. I think if we took an average of the lists posted so far we would get closest to a tier list, which would make the top tier list:

Toon Link
Wolf
Marth
Pit

I didn't average anything else because there's a huge gray area.

 

[supercake]

During my research on the Brawl fighters, I did have a small thought on how the list would be like.

--------------------
Top Rank

Fox
Marth
Falco
Meta Knight
--------------------
High Rank

Samus
Captain Falcon
Peach
Sheik
Ganondorf
Zero Suit Samus
Lucario
Wolf
Sonic
--------------------
Average Rank

Mario
Link
Yoshi
Kirby
Pikachu
Ness
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Luigi
Jigglypuff
Mr. G&W
Squirtle
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Pit
Ike
Lucas
Olimar
R.O.B.
Toon Link
--------------------
Low Rank

Donkey Kong
Bowser
Wario
Ivysaur
Solid Snake
--------------------
Bottom Rank

King Dedede
--------------------

Overall I find Dedede to be the worst fighter. He's heavy, but super slow and is inferior to Bowser and Ganondorf in the power department. His third jump has problems too.

This is a horrible tier list. ss 2nd worst?? he's closer to 2nd best.

 

[thesage]

I'd like to know why u guys rate Ness so low. He's a decent character in brawl and is at least mid tier. I've placed pretty well with him at some tourneys. His pkt2 is a useable move now... I understand he is not high or top, but he's definitely mid tier IMO. He doesn't have that many bad matchups. I just want to know why you guys think this.

 

[orintemple]

D3 as bottom tier makes me laugh. Yes he's slow, but he has some super quick moves like his Bair and Nair. His UpB has problems but that seems to be his biggest downfall as it cannot autograb edges on the way down. He has good range and he has a variety of crazy power moves like all his smashes, dash attack, even Fair. He is at least middle for sure.

 

[JNS]

Top
Marth
Pit
Wolf
tlink
Olimar
Lucas
high
diddy
fox
zelda
falco
sheik
luigi
pikachu
meta knight
peach
ivysaur
mid
ness
dedede
charizard
lucario
ike
wario
snake
kirby
rob
jp
squirtle
mr gw
samus
bowser
low
DK
zs samus
Ice climbers
link
Ganondorf
lowest
C.falcon
mario
yoshi

 

[cyclone248i]

take out the words high, mid, low, and lowest and that's the perfect list.

 

[Woodman]

Game and watch and snake are much better than you have them there.

 

[Mini Mic]

So how does this work? Is the loudest person right or something?

 

[RazeveX]

[EDIT: Ignore i missed it, its a hot day

 

[addict]

Lucas is top tier for sure their is no doubt

 

[Bulkyvendor]

Yep, Lucas *****.

 

[Ganon1]

Consensus Tiers

I'm new to the boards but not to Smash Brothers, and after reading the character discussion forums, this is what I think is the "Consensus Tier List" so far, from the people who seem to know what they're talking about:

** Top **
Marth
Pit
Zelda
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Meta Knight
Squirtle

** High **
ROB
Peach
Captain Falcon
Sonic
Fox
King Dedede
Pikachu
Toon Link
Wolf

** Mid **
Jigglypuff
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Sheik
Game & Watch
Ike
Luigi
Falco
Mario
Snake
Link
Lucario

** Low **
Ness
Wario
Kirby
Yoshi
Samus
Donkey Kong
Charizard
Ganondorf

** Bottom **
Bowser
Ivysaur


I'm not even necessarily saying this is totally accurate, just that this represents an average of the viewpoints presented so far that I've read, hence "consensus tier list"

 

[daddy neptune]

Ok whoever makes a theory tier list give reasons why you do so for the majority of the characters because some of these make no sense. Some characters make sense like Marth or TL but Sonic? Please........

 

[ddrmacintosh]

Yep, Lucas *****.

OH yes, looooove Lucas! His sheer control with PKT, PK Freeze ding a good amount, plus freeze, and how fast he launches PKF to push the enemy back is simply amazing. People always hating on Ness ad Lucas, lol. I've yet to lose a match online using Lucas.

 

[bruiser]

The current lists are probably pretty representative of the game as it is played now, howeve the statements that this game is so much more balanced than Melee are almost guaranteed to be proven wrong. I have never seen a fighting game where the tiers did not seperate out greatly later in metagame development as middle tier eventually becomes (for competitive purposes) no different than bottom tier. Current lists (ITP as my base as his appears most thought out and he can provide reasons for placement) have 12ish characters as in a class that would make them tourney worthy. If this is indeed how it shakes out it will be an EXCELLENT job of game balancing by the developers. 8 heavily used tourney characters (maybe 10) is far more likely.

Countless other fighting games make this conclusion logical. 56 characters in MVC2, 5 became tourney worthy with capcom thrown in purely for his assist. So I give you him and we get 6. 48 in CVS2, and most all teams are compromised of at least two of about 5 characters with some variation in thirds. You all know what melee became. The bottom line is for competitive play the have nots will probably outweigh the haves by about a 4 or 5 to 1 margin.

 

[ddrmacintosh]

I'm new to the boards but not to Smash Brothers, and after reading the character discussion forums, this is what I think is the "Consensus Tier List" so far, from the people who seem to know what they're talking about:

** Top **
Marth
Pit
Zelda
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Meta Knight
Squirtle

** High **
ROB
Peach
Captain Falcon
Sonic
Fox
King Dedede
Pikachu
Toon Link
Wolf

** Mid **
Jigglypuff
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Sheik
Game & Watch
Ike
Luigi
Falco
Mario
Snake
Link
Lucario

** Low **
Ness
Wario
Kirby
Yoshi
Samus
Donkey Kong
Charizard
Ganondorf

** Bottom **
Bowser
Ivysaur


I'm not even necessarily saying this is totally accurate, just that this represents an average of the viewpoints presented so far that I've read, hence "consensus tier list"

LOL the game's been out for what, less than a week in NA? No one "knows what their talking about" because the game is too new and the physics have changed so much.

 

[SlikRick]

What makes Squirtle so much better than Ivysaur and Charizard?

 

[BigRick]

What makes Squirtle so much better than Ivysaur and Charizard?

LOL You have the member name that I wanted when I joined the boards

I hate you