Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[PrinceMarthX]

One good person does not make a character good.

Sorry, but no.

Doesn't stop people from thinking (insert character) is good because one person can do well in tournaments with that character.

 

[Gindler]

So I was playing as Link today, and I'm not the best link of course BUT he can do sooooo many annoying things that you could easily (well maybe not easily) beat a good snake main. So I'd put Link in like top of low myself.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

One good person does not make a character good.

Sorry, but no.

He's not good, but he's not the absolute worst. Ganondorf >> Captain Falcon.

 

[Scala]

One good person does not make a character good.

Sorry, but no.

Tiers are based upon ranking characters ability as if they were being played perfectly or as best as humanly possible. One person is all that it takes to be able to show a character's potential if he is using that character to the best of said character's abilities.

I don't understand why you said what you did. Someone can say (for example) they 3-stocked a ganondorf continually and that doesn't mean that the character is bad. If one person could take ganondorf, play him, and win against an opponent who is also using his character at maximum potential, then it IS applicable.

Don't get me wrong, I still think that ganon belongs in the lower echelon of the tier list. I just want to point out the problems with your logic.

 

[Xeze]

I have a friend who mained Ganondorf (currently he mains Wolf) and in one match we switched our mains to see the outcome of the match. The first two he won (always with one stock difference) but then I defeated him without losing a single stock.

What I want to say with this, is that you can only say that a character is better than another if two players with equal skills compete with those characters. If my friend and I competed in a tournament with switched mains and I would win, this wouldn't mean that Ganondorf is better than Mario, since our skill levels are different.

Tiers are based upon ranking characters ability as if they were being played perfectly or as best as humanly possible.

but keep in mind that even if two players are playing a character perfectly but if one of them has better skills on, for example, reading and predict his opponents moves, than it still isn't accurate to make any assumption about a character, IMO.

 

[Marty]

You should never tier based on "perfect" play. This causes all sort of problems and inaccuracies. That I should have to point this out is baffling me.

but keep in mind that even if two players are playing a character perfectly but if one of them has better skills on, for example, reading and predict his opponents moves, than it still isn't accurate to make any assumption about a character, IMO.

Tiers assume absolute equality between two players. This is one the pillars that defines fair testing.

If one is better at X, it's not a fair test. Obviously two identical candidates will never occur in real life, but you have to aim with that in mind when tiering, and certainly never base a ranking on the idea that "Ganondorf players are smarter" or some other such bull.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Tiers are based upon ranking characters ability as if they were being played perfectly or as best as humanly possible. One person is all that it takes to be able to show a character's potential if he is using that character to the best of said character's abilities.

I don't understand why you said what you did. Someone can say (for example) they 3-stocked a ganondorf continually and that doesn't mean that the character is bad. If one person could take ganondorf, play him, and win against an opponent who is also using his character at maximum potential, then it IS applicable.

Don't get me wrong, I still think that ganon belongs in the lower echelon of the tier list. I just want to point out the problems with your logic.

He probably means that the person playing said character is most likely winning because they are a lot better than the people they are beating. Example: Ness player beats a higher tiered character because is very good at predicting the moves of the other player and punishing them. This advantage is not an innate property of Ness and so could not be attributed to him, but rather to the player himself. Even if you assume both players are playing the character to their maximum potential, that isn't necessarily true when real life examples are added to the mix.

 

[JacobWins]

Ganon Pawnch > Falcon Pawnch

 

[SpaceFalcon]

It's so good that Ganon decided to call it the GANON punch now?

 

[Xeze]

Btw, did Smash Back Room already post a tier list?

 

[ROOOOY!]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
Don't expect to see one til next year sometime.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And een then, it well be highly debatable ...

 

[Xeze]

And een then, it well be highly debatable ...

yeah that's true. no tier list is totally accurate. even the melee tier list can change anytime.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

yeah that's true. no tier list is totally accurate. even the melee tier list can change anytime.

Aren't they done with that?

 

[powell651234]

The BR tier list:

Characters You will win with...
Meta Knight

Characters You will not win with...
Everyone else

 

[Nestec]

Alright, how does this look?
Lime groupings are character orderings I wasn't sure about.

[Top Tier: MK, Snake ]

[High Tier: G&W, Marth, Falco, D3, ROB ]

[Upper-Middle Tier: Olimar, Pikachu, Wario, DK, Lucario, Wolf, IC ]

[Middle Tier: Pit, DiddyKong, Zelda, TLink, Kirby, ZSS, Fox ]

[Lower-Middle Tier: Ness, Luigi, Lucas, Sheik, Sonic, Peach, Ike]

[Low Tier: Mario, Link, Samus, PT, Bowser, Yoshi, Jigglypuff ]

[Bottom Tier: Ganondorf, Captain Falcon]

Btw, it really pains me to put characters like Jigglypuff, Yoshi, and Bowser that low. It's not that they are bad, it's just that there is really no one that's much worse than them...

I'm also considering moving up Ganondorf into Low Tier after trying him out a little more yesterday. I don't think anyone is bad enough to be put in the same tier as Falcon.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nothing fundamentally new about that list...

 

[Nestec]

Anything horribly off?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not really. It's just annoying to see a new list every two pages, especially now, since we agreed upon using Snowstalker latest list as basis for our debates

 

[JacobWins]

Id move ganon up, hes just misunderstood is all

EDIT: I'd put the individual pokemon names in there instead of just PT

 

[Nestec]

@ Gheb:

o_o
We did? Ack, my bad then, lol. Oh well, doesn't hurt to see another one every once in a while. XD
What page is Snowstalker's list on?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The last post on page 923 (from Dynamism) has the newest update of the list

 

[Jump_Man]

Snowstalker's list

GOD TIER:

Meta Knight

TOP TIER:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
King Dedede
Marth
R.O.B

HIGH:

Olimar
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Wario
Kirby
Pikachu
Pit
Wolf

MIDDLE:

Ice Climbers
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Zelda
Luigi
Fox
Peach
Lucas
Ness

LOW:

Mario
Sonic
Yoshi
Bowser
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Samus

BOTTOM:

Link
Jigglypuff
Captian Falcon
Ganondorf

 

[Grunt]

There is something horribly wrong with that list.
Snake is in the same tier as MK.
o.0

 

[Dynamism?]

923 has both the original and edited one.


GOD TIER:

Meta Knight

TOP TIER:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
King Dedede
Marth
R.O.B

HIGH:

Olimar
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Wario
Kirby
Pikachu
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Pit

MIDDLE:

Ice Climbers
Toon Link
Zelda
Luigi
Zero Suit Samus
Ness
Fox
Peach
Lucas

LOW:

Mario
Sonic
Yoshi
Bowser
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Samus

BOTTOM:

Link
Jigglypuff
Captian Falcon
Ganondorf



Your list seems just as accurate to me.

TOP:

MK
Snake

HIGH:

G&W
Marth
Falco
D3
ROB

UPPER:

Pikachu
Olimar
Wario
DK
Lucario
Wolf
IC

MID:

Pit
DiddyKong
Zelda
TLink
Kirby
ZSS
Fox

LOWMID:

Ness
Luigi
Sheik
Lucas
Sonic
Peach
Ike

LOW:
Mario
Link
Samus
PT
Bowser
Yoshi
Jigglypuff

BOTTOM:

Ganondorf
Captain Falcon



lol @ everyone responding. Also, MK could easily be his own tier.

Honestly, I know it's probably not something everyone would agree with but...I thing Snake is like 5th best ish in the game, not even 2nd >_>

 

[DanGR]

Lol at sheik below big booser. that's bull.

 

[Nestec]

Yeah, I'm not seeing Sheik being lower than Bowser... But it's still a decent list, I suppose.

I've been doubting Snake's top placement for months now, but I've always figured that it's just that I've never played a really good Snake. (I've never even participated in a tournament. >_<)

 

[Dynamism?]

It has something to do with MK being unstoppable and Snake has way too many weeknesses too be a god in the game lol

 

[Mmac]

Except Yoshi isn't 4th Worst and should never be

and MetaKnight isn't THAT Unstoppable >_>

 

[Nestec]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, Yoshi is not bad. It's just that not many others deserve to be below him.

I always thought he was as good as Mario even, but the community suggests otherwise.

 

[cman]

Snowstalker's list

GOD TIER:

Meta Knight

TOP TIER:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
King Dedede
Marth
R.O.B

HIGH:

Olimar
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Wario
Kirby
Pikachu
Pit
Wolf

MIDDLE:

Ice Climbers
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Zelda
Luigi
Fox
Peach
Lucas
Ness

LOW:

Mario
Sonic
Yoshi
Bowser
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Samus

BOTTOM:

Link
Jigglypuff
Captian Falcon
Ganondorf

What's the justification for Falco at 4th? He has his lasers, but those can be overcome, and once they are, most of the other top tiers have an advantage over him at close range. Plus, he doesn't have excellent tourny results.

I would say he deserves to be bottom of top or top of high.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Actually we diecided to leave discussions about the top tiered characters for later, since the Metagame could change.

Sheik > Bowser is propably right and as I said before Zalda/Fox > Zamus

 

[Mmac]

I always thought he was as good as Mario even, but the community suggests otherwise.

And by community, you mean..........

Because I haven't seen anything that suggest otherwise in the past months......

 

[a77]

Changes I would make to Snowstalker's tier list:

S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, Falco, King Dedede, R.O.B
B: Donkey Kong, Lucario, Wario, Diddy Kong, Kirby, Olimar, Wolf, Pikachu, Pit
C: Ice Climbers, Fox, Zelda, Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus, Ness, Luigi, Peach, Lucas
D: Mario, Ike, Yoshi, Sheik, Sonic, Bowser, Pokemon Trainer, Samus
E: Link, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf

Green characters moved up, red characters moved down.

 

[Jump_Man]

Cahnges I would make to Snowstalker's tier list:

S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, Falco, King Dedede, R.O.B
B: Donkey Kong, Lucario, Wario, Diddy Kong, Kirby, Olimar, Wolf, Pikachu, Pit
C: Ice Climbers, Fox, Zelda, Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus, Ness, Luigi, Peach, Lucas
D: Mario, Ike, Yoshi, Sheik, Sonic, Bowser, Pokemon Trainer, Samus
E: Link, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf

Green characters moved up, red characters moved down.

I like this list more, but it's not really that different than snow's list.

 

[exidid]

I would put Peach top of middle, though...

 

[Nestec]

And by community, you mean..........

Because I haven't seen anything that suggest otherwise in the past months......

People putting Yoshi lower than Mario in just about every list I've seen...

 

[Gindler]

True, Mario and Yoshi are both major "annoyances" though. Constant fireball barrage and tail wagging barrages can get annoying quick. But I think Mario has a better kill option, his Super Powered Fsmash, it even kills Snake at like 105 which is excellent.

 

[Jump_Man]

ya, but it's pretty slow mirite? And can it really kill Snake in the middle of FD at 105?

 

[Nestec]

It's slow?

Man, whenever my bro kills me with that, it always seems like it's coming out ridiculously fast.