Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[ROOOOY!]

*Shrugs*
I think Luigi's position on that list is being pretty darn fair on him. Moving him up more than two places would be stupid.
And yeah, Ness > Lucas. It's not so much a case of Lucas moving down (he should though), it's more a case of Ness moving up.

There are other discrepencies on the list but I personally can't be bothered to state them.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Luigi is too good at punishing laggy attacks to be mid tier in my opinion. Fire punch gives Luigi a lot of potential.

Opponent does a running attack or grab? Side step and fire punch

So you're going to fire punch, Sonic, Kirby, Snake after their dash attack? mind you the majority of dasha ttacks can be initiated so that by the time you OS the ^B you'll just 1% them.

Or they can just harass you with ranged attacks.

Opponent does an attack with a lot of lag? (Lucas's up smash, Game and Watch's bucket etc.) Run up and fire punch

You can do this with any character on a move with lag like that.

Opponent does a down air that sends them downward? (Yoshi, Link, Toon Link, Game & Watch etc.) Side step and fire punch

Side step and Fsmash, Dsmash etc etc.

its not really unique.

Not only that they can just not do moves that would palce them in range of the firepunch.

it doens't wokr if the opponent plays safely.

Luigi stinks at approaching but a good Luigi will make you fear doing anything. As soon as your damage is around 50%, you could be killed at any time. Luigi is great at quickly racking up damage with his uptilts and aerials too.

Meh I have no fear, fear is for the weak.
Xd

Anyways yeah Luigi can kill you at early percents but the issue is that he really has a tough time linking to those moves. if use Sonic against Luigi (I will probably get creamed anyway) but I can avoid his kill moves if I use ranged attacks with little lag. As long as I stay outside his arange i won't have issues with getting killed early.

 

[hizzlum]

GOD TIER:

Meta Knight

TOP TIER:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
King Dedede
Marth
R.O.B

HIGH:

Olimar
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Wario
Kirby
Pikachu
Pit
Wolf

MIDDLE:

Ice Climbers
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Zelda
Luigi
Fox
Peach
Lucas
Ness

LOW:

Mario
Sonic
Yoshi
Bowser
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Samus

BOTTOM:

Link
Jigglypuff
Captian Falcon
Ganondorf

Wow, this is like a perfect tier list for the metagame right now(IMO), its very similar to mine with some small changes, but I have some things to add(keep in mine i just looked at ankoku's rankings, and match-ups charts the first time in a month, so please correct me if you disagree)
Metaknight (going up)and snake(going down) have switched places for sure as MK has gotten a ton of wins this summer, but I still believe through the match-ups and the pile of tournies snake has won, that he should be in your "god" tier under MK.
I think Falco and DDD should switch places, beacuse of the great amount of tourney wins over falco, although falco has slightly better match-ups
And lastly, Wario seems a little low, Futile is ranked very high in socal with him and alot of west coast tourneys fall to wario and it also does happen in the rest of the states too, but not as significantly as in the west, also his match-ups are not that bad(maybe next to olimar in the tier list?)
Nice tier list though, use constructive critism to make even better though.

 

[BBQ°]

I agree with the above post and the above tier list, but I think Pikachu should switch with Kirby and Ganondorf should switch with Captain Falcon

 

[Dynamism?]

ROY!
I agree.

hizzlum
Snake doesn't need to be with MK. He's still second, that's enough for now.
Dedede over Falco makes sense but I don't want to move Dedede and Falco around yet. Like the Marth thing, the top is always scrambling around like this so lets just leave it alone for a while.

Wario below Olimar is good yeah.

ShadowL
You really don't get Luigi do you? lol
And you're twisting things around way too much for your own good. Nobody can punish Sonics dash attack with a fsmash. Duh, that's not the point and never will be. Either you know this and are just arguing for the sake of it or just don't know better so talk about it. You can punish any laggy attack? Duh, Luigi just punishes harder than anyone else in a few ways. None of the things you said have any relation to his game play. Hit with moves that have more reach? Well of course, they have to. That's EXACTLY like saying Marth > Snake because his sword out ranges his tilts. That simply is horrible theory crafting because it goes against what reality has shown since March and all other match ups/aspects of the game.

Again, Luigi can link moves together and set up finishers better than all of the cast aside from maybe 4 characters.
Seriously, just stop arguing and ask or research it.

 

[LuigiKing]

I actually have to agree with Dynamism on this one. People argue against Luigi just for the sake of doing so. People refuse to accept he is an outstanding character, and with better tourny results could easily be amoung character like Tink and Wolf. People use general arguments that could be made against any character, and refuse to say anything character specific, because quite frankly, no one has a freaking clue how Luigi is played. Don't talk unless you bother to do your research plz.

On a side note, I think people are getting WAY carried away with DKs placement. His tournament results are not nearly good enough to warrant him that high. Above Pika and Wolf is plain blasphemy.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Side step and Fsmash, Dsmash etc etc.

its not really unique.

Bad comparsion. Those attacks can't kill at 50%. Except maybe with Marth with a tipper. Ike and Dedede's foward smash is too slow for that.

People really need to stop letting tournament results skew theirjudgment. Luigi being in E only tells us that hardly anyone plays him. Anyone that doesn't know better will just assume that he's bad.

This is just like how Luigi is portrayed in the games. Mario is known for high jumping ability yet Luigi does it better. Luigi does a lot of things well that people refuse to acknowledge: Luigi has a better aerial game than most of the cast because of his speed, priority and ability to link moves together; Luigi is best at punishing because he's the only character with no lag start up delay that can kill at 50%; Luigi's forward smash is one of the best in the game in terms of speed and power; Luigi's neutral air is one of th best in terms of speed and power. How many aerials have no start up delay that can kill at 120% from anywhere on the stage? People exaggerate Luigi's bad approach because of his air and running speed. Cyclone is a good approach as long as your opponent doesn't predict it or they're vulnerable after being hit with a fireball or doing an attack. Luigi performs best in the air and most of his attacks are built for knocking your opponent into the air. So getting them in the air or keeping them there isn't hard at all.

 

[Shök]

Snowstalker's list is pretty accurate.

but, IMO

Snake should be w/ MK

and the top tieries should be switched around a bit

 

[ShadowLink84]

Bad comparsion. Those attacks can't kill at 50%. Except maybe with Marth with a tipper.

You need that large window while other moes don't need such a large window because they have the range to make up for it.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Luigi has one very big issue that really hurts him in a camping-oriented game: he can't approach well.
When it comes to approaching, Luigi only has ground options. His aerial approach leaves much to be desired due to his slowness and only average range. And when he gets on the ground, his only good approach option is the Luigi tornado, which is again easily outranged and even has a bit of ending lag if it's shielded.
Do me a favor and don't say "zomg u a luigi hatr".

 

[ShadowLink84]

Zomg Luigi H8r

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Luigi has one very big issue that really hurts him in a camping-oriented game: he can't approach well.
When it comes to approaching, Luigi only has ground options. His aerial approach leaves much to be desired due to his slowness and only average range. And when he gets on the ground, his only good approach option is the Luigi tornado, which is again easily outranged and even has a bit of ending lag if it's shielded.
Do me a favor and don't say "zomg u a luigi hatr".

Luigi's approaches are

Short hopped back airs. If spaced correctly, Luigi can hit Marth with a back air and DI out of his sword range. Luigi has quite a bit of range if you hit with the very tip of his feet. This approach is the hardest to master.

Short hopped fireballs. Since Luigi's fireballs defy gravity, they prevent aerial approaches. Toss a fireball on the ground then hop forward and toss another in the air then one more as you land. You approach with a wall of fireballs.

Cyclone. I've already explained this. Cyclone is a good approach if your opponent doesn't predict it or is vulnerable. Tossing a fireball and doing one after it hits works well.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Forgot to mention that Luigi can also approach with short hopped neutral airs. If any projectiles are thrown, his kick will cancel them. It even stops Meta Knight's mach tornado.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Yup Shadowlink, that was actually reverse psychology. Good catch.

On the fireball approach: Fireballs are probably the most easily pinged projectile there is. The defender can just press A and all of a sudden it's no longer a threat.

 

[Wyvern-x]

Top Tier
Meta Knight
Snake
Mr. Game and Watch
Marth

Very High
Falco
King Dedede
ROB
Wario
Lucario
Olimar
Donkey Kong

High
Wolf
Pikachu
Pit
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Toon Link
Fox

Mid
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Ness
Lucas
Peach
Luigi
Ike

Low
Sonic
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Link
Bowser

Bottom
Sheik
Samus
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Ganondof
Captain Falcon

 

[Negative_Two]

Stuff about Luigi being high tier.

I think you're overrating Luigi

First of all, tier lists are partially generated from tournament results. Luigi is at a disadvantage against all of the below heavily used characters, making tournament placing difficult.

Snake, Mk, DDD, Marth, G&W Falco, and ROB

Also, brawl is a game with an abundance of camping. so a character really wants:
1) A good approach game
2) A way to successfully camp

Luigi really has neither, so that affects his tourney places.

I'm not saying Luigi is bad at all, just saying that your recommended tier placement sounds too high.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Luigi doesn't really need to approach. It's good that his fireballs don't travel that fast, because they still have fast firing rate and stay in the air. He sets up that wall of fireballs outside of punishment range and he controls spacing safely. This ain't Melee, both Mario and Luigi's Fireballs are rapid fire with little lag. Someone mentioned that Luigi has the worst projectile in the game, even though it's arguably better than Fox's, Wolf's, GW's and Zelda's(1v1).

 

[Dark Sonic]

Duh, Luigi just punishes harder than anyone else in a few ways.

Except Luigi's up B has crap range and Luigi doesn't run fast enough to close the distance. You'd only be punishing really, really laggy moves...which the opponent shouldn't be using in a matchup where all they have to do is play campy.

Hit with moves that have more reach? Well of course, they have to.

Only it's easy to do because Luigi doesn't have great range (well, maybe his bair). Luigi pretty much has trouble against anyone that outranges him (disjointed range of course, or if they outspeed him too, though there are some exceptions).

That's EXACTLY like saying Marth > Snake because his sword out ranges his tilts.

Only Marth's range advantage on Snake is actually pretty small, while Snake's power advantage is extremely large, and their attack speeds are about the same.

That simply is horrible theory crafting because it goes against what reality has shown since March and all other match ups/aspects of the game.

Except no one was ever saying that Marth had an advantage over Snake. Ever. And Snake's range is pretty rediculous.

Again, Luigi can link moves together and set up finishers better than all of the cast aside from maybe 4 characters.

But most of the high tiered characters don't actually need to set up finishers, because their finishers are fast enough to simply serve as punishment (or if they have little ending lag you can just throw them out every now and then. Like MK's d-smash or Snake's up tilt).

@Turbo Ether-While Luigi technically can camp fireballs, they are far to easy to beat to force an appproach. The opponent can litterally just block fireballs all day, and Luigi really can't follow them up with anything. They just slowly close the distance until their too close for you to fireball safely, and then they sit there and wait for you to approach from that distance. If they have decent range, they sit there and poke at you until you approach, and if you try to retreat and shoot fireballs they just start slowly moving foward again.

Luigi just isn't really anything to brag about. It's true that his tournament results are probably lower than what they should be, but I don't think they're drastically lower like some of you are claiming.

 

[Deleted member]

Yea luigi has one of the worst anti camping games in the whole game, its rediculous. His only anti camping approach is down b, which isnt that great, and can be punished, and some projectiles even beat that. I agree with dark sonic.

 

[cutter]

Also, brawl is a game with an abundance of camping. so a character really wants:
1) A good approach game
2) A way to successfully camp

Just to let you know, MK has no projectile and G&W's is very situational. They have #1 down though; they're quite possibly the best approachers in the game. Both can attack aggressively and get away with it despite Brawl's defensive nature.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^If you are really good at one...you don't need the other, as you'd never be forced to use it. If you're camping is so good that it forces approaches (Rob, Falco, ect, DDD, ect.), then you don't need an approach game. If your approach is so good that it prevents camping (Metaknight, Game&Watch, Marth, ect.), then you don't need a camping game.

 

[IShotLazer]

I see Donkey Kong as much better than Diddy Kong. Just to throw that out there in the middle of that discussion.

 

[IShotLazer]

Anyway, I don't think Luigi needs to too much of anti camping game, so much as a bait and punish game. When anyone becomes offensive or gets carried away Luigi is a beast at punishing an attacker. The thing is, against projectiles he is forced to play a somewhat aggressive game, which as previously stated he isn't too good at .

 

[Collective of Bears]

I see Donkey Kong as much better than Diddy Kong. Just to throw that out there in the middle of that discussion.

And Diddy would probably be lower if our good buddy Sakurai hadn't given him the miracle of tripping via Bananas.

 

[IShotLazer]

I have never had a problem with Diddy plus Donkey on the plus side is pretty decent against the Upper Tier matchups E.x. Snake and Metaknight.

 

[Dynamism?]

lol I'll use dsmash as an example because I'm sure you know what that is

Except Luigi's up B has crap range and Luigi doesn't run fast enough to close the distance. You'd only be punishing really, really laggy moves...which the opponent shouldn't be using in a matchup where all they have to do is play campy.
Only it's easy to do because Luigi doesn't have great range (well, maybe his bair). Luigi pretty much has trouble against anyone that outranges him (disjointed range of course, or if they outspeed him too, though there are some exceptions).

I'm a little confused on your post.
I never mentioned UpB and don't find it to be a big part of his game. It's really just something to watch when playing against a Luigi and can situationally get him a quick stock lead.
There are better things to do than that, and they land all of the time. Example, dsmash

But most of the high tiered characters don't actually need to set up finishers, because their finishers are fast enough to simply serve as punishment (or if they have little ending lag you can just throw them out every now and then. Like MK's d-smash or Snake's up tilt).

fsmash, usmash, nair and of course...dsmash?
lol seriously, don't support Luigi as a way of showing he's bad.
At any % they're some of the best moves, made even better by how they set up more of each other because they fit Luigis game so well.


Quote by me - That's EXACTLY like saying Marth > Snake because his sword out ranges his tilts.

Quote by you - Only Marth's range advantage on Snake is actually pretty small, while Snake's power advantage is extremely large, and their attack speeds are about the same.

Exactly. Thanks for backing me up without understanding what you were doing at the time lol

Attack speed +
Power +
One thing called "Luigi Down Smash" has just under the range of something else called "Marths Foward Smash". Sure Luigi has a disadvantage against characters with large disjointed hitboxes and fast moves in the air to match his like G&W, MK, TLink and Marth. After that nobody has much on Luigi aside from the camping game which isn't exactly an end all thing anyway. If Luigi gets passed that they're in trouble. That's the whole reason it's such a big factor against Luigi, it's just that important for them to win against him.



And why is it that Sonics are always the ones that don't know anything about weegee? Do you all have a grudge against him cause everything Luigi > everything Sonic? >;^D

 

[IShotLazer]

I like weegee!
I just don't think he is too up there in the tier list. In fact I think he belongs dead center as a perfect example of the most basic character without too much advantages but can be a pest to the rest (Bottom half) of the cast.

 

[bazooka85]

God

Meta Knight

Angels

Snake
Marth
Mr. Game and Watch
Samus(only because of Tudor)

Natural Disasters

ROB
Olimar
Falco
King Dedede
Wario
Wolf
Toon Link
Donkey Kong

Humans

Lucario
Pikachu
Pit
Diddy Kong
Zero Suit Samus
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Fox

Carnivores

Zelda
Ness
Lucas
Peach
Luigi
Ike

Herbivores

Sonic
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Link
Bowser(LOL, yes he eats lots of carrots, how else would he get that laggy fire breath?)
Yoshi

Plants

Sheik
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

Dirt

Ganondof

 

[IShotLazer]

I wish captain falcon was better than ganon ... He isn't though. In fact ganon can deliver a lot quicker punishment than most people think.

 

[Mmac]

Ok, there is no way Yoshi's a Herbivore.

He's an Omnivore. He eats Meat and Vegetation.

I mean, only god knows how many Shy Guy's he's eaten!

 

[Dynamism?]

Mmac speaks trooth

Ganon pwns yeppers. But gotta appeal to the mass publics twisted perceptions because they refuse to learn.

OH SNAPZ

 

[IShotLazer]

ITT how Yoshi has infinite grabs.

 

[Guilhe]

My opinion is that Ike should be above Luigi on the tier list. Of course, I don’t even have a matchup guide stickered at my main character’s board to back me up. But from my experience in play and the Luigi matchup guide I’m thinking that Ike has better matchups than Luigi. Luigi’s recover can go much farther than Ike’s, but his recovery is easier to gimp (in more matchups than Ike) and he is light weight. Depending on the matchup, Luigi can be killed when attempting to recover as soon as 80%.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Exactly. Thanks for backing me up without understanding what you were doing at the time lol[.quote]
Let me hit you a few times on the head. he didn't support you.

the range difference between marth and Snake is minimal.
The range difference between Marth and Luigi overall is large.

So if Luigi is dealing with someone whose range is larger for example, Link and goes head to head in attacks, he'll typically get outranged.

(though Luigi's attack speed makes up for it in that matchup)

And why is it that Sonics are always the ones that don't know anything about weegee? Do you all have a grudge against him cause everything Luigi > everything Sonic? >;^D

Luigi is my 2nd favorite character so no.
*falcon punches you*

 

[gallax]

i agree that luigi should be dead center. the arguements have already been listed above.

 

[Dynamism?]

IKE!!! IKE?!?! IKE IS THE WORST CHARACTER EVER!!! >:[

Sorry, I just say that every time I see something about Ike. Inside joke.

But that cannot correct information, Ike does not have almost any good match ups and has a horrible recovery. There is a reason there is no sticky match up thread, it would scare people off. And his recovery is just nasty. Worse than Luigi, worse than most of the cast with only few exceptions. He's just a bad character. :\

Sorry, Ike is just...

IKE!!!! THE WORST CHARACTER IN THE GAME!!! >:[

 

[Dark Sonic]

lol I'll use dsmash as an example because I'm sure you know what that is

Fine, I'll give you that. It has decent range and comes out pretty quickly. But Luigi also slides pretty far back when he shields an attack, so it's still not as easy to land as other character's punishers.

I'm a little confused on your post.
I never mentioned UpB and don't find it to be a big part of his game. It's really just something to watch when playing against a Luigi and can situationally get him a quick stock lead.

I must've mistaken you for someone else. My bad.

There are better things to do than that, and they land all of the time. Example, dsmash

Still hard to land on the faster characters.

fsmash, usmash, nair and of course...dsmash?

F-smash and Usmash...not so much. And though Nair is good once you've set them up in the air, it's hard to land on grounded opponents.

Quote by me - That's EXACTLY like saying Marth > Snake because his sword out ranges his tilts.

Quote by you - Only Marth's range advantage on Snake is actually pretty small, while Snake's power advantage is extremely large, and their attack speeds are about the same.

Exactly. Thanks for backing me up without understanding what you were doing at the time lol

My point was that it's nothing like saying Marth>Snake.

Attack speed +
Power +
One thing called "Luigi Down Smash" has just under the range of something else called "Marths Foward Smash". Sure Luigi has a disadvantage against characters with large disjointed hitboxes and fast moves in the air to match his like G&W, MK, TLink and Marth.

A lot of characters outrange Luigi.

After that nobody has much on Luigi aside from the camping game which isn't exactly an end all thing anyway.

Falco, DDD, Pit, Rob, Wolf, Zelda? Hell, Zelda doesn't even camp that well, but Luigi is still forced to approach anyway.

If Luigi gets passed that they're in trouble. That's the whole reason it's such a big factor against Luigi, it's just that important for them to win against him.

So if they have disjointed hitboxes or a good camping game then Luigi has trouble against them. Now lets see who that describes.

How about, pretty much every top tier character and half of the high tiers. It really doesn't matter that he completely ***** the lower tiered characters, because he still get shut down by those that matter. High tier characters typically do not have bad matchups against ALL of the other high tier characters. Now if you were arguing for mid tier, that I could easily agree with.

And why is it that Sonics are always the ones that don't know anything about weegee? Do you all have a grudge against him cause everything Luigi > everything Sonic? >;^D

I use Marth against Luigi, specifically because it's Sonic's worst matchup due to Luigi's priority nulifying Sonic's approaches. But with Marth, Luigi is the one who has to get through a wall of disjointed attacks, and everytime that he breaks through he only gets a few attacks before the positions are reset. Kinda like what happens to him with projectile camping.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I prefer Falco to marth actually. Mainly cause of the lasers versatility.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, I don't know how to play Falco, and I like Marth's overall approach game, as well as his many defensive options.

That and Marth's up B>>>Luigi's down B.

 

[Negative_Two]

Just to let you know, MK has no projectile and G&W's is very situational. They have #1 down though; they're quite possibly the best approachers in the game. Both can attack aggressively and get away with it despite Brawl's defensive nature.

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant a its nice for a character to have either 1, 2, or both