Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Nigerian Star Storm]

if Its Your First Tourny And The People Dont Suck, U Probably Wont. people Play Yoshi In Tournaments, Its Just Hard To Win With Him Against Good People, Especially When They Are Better Players Playing A Better Character =/

Then Why In The World Do Yoshi Mainers Say That No One Plays Him??!?!?!?!??! >_>.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Then Why In The World Do Yoshi Mainers Say That No One Plays Him??!?!?!?!??! >_>.

Because a low majority of people actually take him to tournaments.

In which case it becomes a number game in where minority is lost in the majority sea.
the amount of PURE yoshi tournament goers in North america (including the Awe inspiring Canada) is probably quite low as well as some other characters.

 

[adumbrodeus]

That draconic reverse thing is not a WD. Plus, how is he going to effectively use it in a fight? Spacing for the tail swipe? Anything he does sucks, so getting extra movement is wasted. They couldn't have given a worse character that AT.

They probably couldn't have... it's not going to give Yoshi a top tier placement, but the ATs should at least boost him out of bottom.

Lol, as you probably noticed from the little Marth icon, I'm not a Yoshi mainer. Still, I would like to encourage the Yoshis to incorperate these ATs in their game, and see what happens.

Unfortunately his ATs couldn't have come to a character with worse base attributes...

Crazy Super Jump? What about Ness and Lucas'?

Do they have heavy armor for their jumps? They can go as high as Yoshi?

I'm not talking about his double jump, I'm talking about the AT.

I'm pretty sure the two "second jumps" don't have to be used in succession, so it's rather versitile, in theory.

 

[stoopdklutz]

Uhm...here's my tier list?

Top-
Snake
Meta-Knight
Game and Watch

High-
King Dedede
Marth
R.O.B.
Falco
Wario
Toon Link
DK
Pikachu
Wolf

Mid-
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Lucario
Fox
Kirby
Diddy Kong
Pit
Zelda
Sonic
Lucas
Zero Suit Samus
Sheik
Luigi
Ness

Low-
Bowser
Pokemon Trainer
Peach
Ike
Mario
Ganondorf

Bottom-
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Samus

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

It was called juggernaut frames or heavy armor frames in melee.


Thats why its rather irksome to hear super armor since super armor frames mean there is no flinching.


And defense points? Where did you get the defense point value from?

Defense points are from Yugioh, it was a joke

and thats a pretty nice tier list

 

[fujbubccc]

I dig the tier list overall, but I have some beefs. Sonic and Olimar are not on the same tier. Wolf seems a little high. Maybe DK too, (I am only basing that on other lists). Otherwise it's pretty good.

 

[stoopdklutz]

I was debating on wether or not Olimar should be high, but his recovery, although it's not much of a problem due to Olimar's great horizontal movement and floatiness, is still hindering, and I put him in mid. I also put Sonic in mid because he has many playstyles, tactics, AT's, and the such. Also, his tournaments results are higher than most. He has WON a few more tournaments then a fair majority of the cast.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Uhm...here's my tier list?

Top-
Snake
Meta-Knight
Game and Watch

High-
King Dedede
Marth
R.O.B.
Falco
Wario
Toon Link
DK
Pikachu
Wolf

Mid-
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Lucario
Fox
Kirby
Diddy Kong
Pit
Zelda
Sonic
Lucas
Zero Suit Samus
Sheik
Luigi
Ness

Low-
Bowser
Pokemon Trainer
Peach
Ike
Mario
Ganondorf

Bottom-
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Samus

Move Samus up 1

Jigglypuff down 1 (might be a stretch)

Push yoshi into Low Tier put PKM trainer into Mid Tier.
Yoshi over Ganondorf, but Ganondorf stays in Low.
move DK down a bit.
Luigi Up some. >.>

 

[stoopdklutz]

oh crap, why I put Weegee in low-mid? I meant mid-mid....

Top-
Snake
Meta-Knight
Game and Watch

High-
King Dedede
Marth
R.O.B.
Falco
Wario
Toon Link
DK
Pikachu
Wolf

Mid-
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Lucario
Fox
Kirby
Diddy Kong
Pit
Zelda
Luigi
Sonic
Lucas
Zero Suit Samus
Sheik
Luigi
Ness

Low-
Bowser
Pokemon Trainer
Peach
Ike
Mario
Ganondorf

Bottom-
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Samus

 

[Jing)]

lol samus worst char in game lol

 

[stoopdklutz]

If you want to know why Samus is that low, go ask Lobelia or Corey about it. They seem to be able to talk about it all day.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If you want to know why Samus is that low, go ask Lobelia or Corey about it. They seem to be able to talk about it all day.

I think Corey and Lobelia overstate their case just a bit...

Don't get me wrong, Samus is BAD, but bottom of bottom tier is a little excessive. Gannondorf is (unfortunately) in a far worse state.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I think Corey and Lobelia overstate their case just a bit...

Don't get me wrong, Samus is BAD, but bottom of bottom tier is a little excessive. Gannondorf is (unfortunately) in a far worse state.

Agreed. I've tried to tell Lobelia this many, many times but she just doesn't want to listen to me. Samus DOES have a few things going for her---a good projectile game, moderate priority (I stress moderate to the utmost) when attacking, and the zair. What she doesn't have is a reliable way to kill people because, really, none of her attacks have killing power. Ganondorf may be billy-badass when it comes to killing power but he doesn't have a solid approach in which to employ the killing power he has. Most of his attacks are laggy and can't be auto-canceled which means that he's easily punished. At least Samus can approach safely with projectiles/zair and auto-cancel some of her better attacks.

Samus deserves to be somewhere a little higher in the bottom tier section; hell, in some respects, I think she needs to be at the bottom of low. But that's just me, though, and that's because I secretly fear good Samus players in Melee.

There. I admitted it, My. So the whole world now knows I fear Samus in Smash.

Smooth Criminal

 

[itsthebigfoot]

uhh, samus's projectile game is not that good, they're very slow and predictable, easy to powershield

also, on the list, move pikachu down a bit, peach up, switch ness and lucas (ness has a better air game and a better record) and move sonic down a lot

seriously, with sonic and lucas's current tournament record, they should warrant anything above low tier, meanwhile you have ness at borderline low and peach in low while they're doing alright

 

[Smooth Criminal]

uhh, samus's projectile game is not that good, they're very slow and predictable, easy to powershield

>___>

I didn't say "amazing." I didn't say "spectacular." I said "good," as in meaning it's better than characters like Mario and Luigi who have crappy projectiles.

That's all. I'm not saying she should be high tier by having a "good" projectile game.

Sheesh.

Smooth Criminal

 

[adumbrodeus]

Agreed. I've tried to tell Lobelia this many, many times but she just doesn't want to listen to me. Samus DOES have a few things going for her---a good projectile game, moderate priority (I stress moderate to the utmost) when attacking, and the zair. What she doesn't have is a reliable way to kill people because, really, none of her attacks have killing power. Ganondorf may be billy-badass when it comes to killing power but he doesn't have a solid approach in which to employ the killing power he has. Most of his attacks are laggy and can't be auto-canceled which means that he's easily punished. At least Samus can approach safely with projectiles/zair and auto-cancel some of her better attacks.

Definately agreed. Gannondorf's JAB isn't even safe on block, let alone his tilts.

He can clank and outprioritize projectiles, but yeah, in general, but he doesn't have any moves to actually use to get in. Camping for a character with no projectiles= not good. He's a good punisher, when he hits, but his moves have laggy start-ups, something that makes a lot of moves that shouldn't be safe... safe.

Of course if they make a major mistake... boot to the face! Almost all of his match-ups are like the Peach vs. Olimar match-up. Olimar can kill peach like nobody's business, but... try getting a hit on peach. Just doesn't happen.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Top-
1.Snake
2.Meta-Knight

High-
3,King Dedede
4.Game and Watch
5.Marth
6.Wario
7.ROB
8.DK
9.Falco

Mid-
10.Ice Climbers
11.Olimar
12.Wolf
13.Lucario
14.Fox
15.Ness
16.Pikachu
17.Kirby
18.Diddy Kong
19.Toon Link
20.Peach
21.Zelda
22.Luigi "Weegee"
23.Zero Suit Samus
24.Pit

Low-
25.Sheik
26.Bowser
27.Mario
28.Lucas
29.Sonic
30.Ganondorf
31.Pokemon Trainer
32.Ike
33.Link

Bottom-
34.Yoshi
35.Samus
36.Jigglypuff
37.Captain Falcon

 

[chckn]

sheik is too high and pit is too low. Other than that good list.

 

[Browny]

besides moving pit up about 4-5 and wolf down 2-3, thats pretty solid

i cant believe youve got ness almost twice as high as lucas though lol, never seen that before.

oh yeah btw, for anyone who doesnt believe

I also put Sonic in mid because he has many playstyles, tactics, AT's, and the such. Also, his tournaments results are higher than most. He has WON a few more tournaments then a fair majority of the cast.

do some research and youll find

Sonic still has 4 tourney wins,

which is equal to
Olimar,

and more wins than
Peach, Ike, Zelda, ZSS, Lucas, Ness, Mario, Luigi, Shiek, Kirby, Bowser, CF, Diddy, Ganon, PT, Samus, Link, Pikachu, Toon Link, Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers and Yoshi

 

[stoopdklutz]

haha yea thats where I based it off of.

I just don't like Samus anymore. I was a one-time Samus main in melee and now playing her just feels....meh. Maybe I'm biased. Oh well. That tier list was IMO.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Winning tournaments isn't exaclty everything though, how they placed overall also counts.


Consistent Top 8 and above placers usually indicate a character is being played well by multiple different people, while characters who have a large amount of wins but few actual over placings could lead to it just being one person who's really good.

AlphaZealot brought it up earlier, we also need to look at HOW many people are successful with that character.

 

[TheSMASHtyke]

I don't want to insult anyone who's made a teir list already, but from now on, when someone posts a tier list, can you please
EXPLAIN ALL OF YOUR REASONINGS.
Anybody can make a list of characters based on what other people have posted, but I'd really like to see someone post an awesome tier list that explains in depth each and every reason why they placed that character above and below the other characters..

 

[Swordplay]

List

List all of the character when you make a tier list *Cough* Link *Cough*

Numbering helps.----that goes out to everyone.

 

[Corigames]

I like how Yoshi sucks, and, if you point out that simple fact, then you are attacked by a wave of youngsters too young to enter scrub tournaments. Tournaments shouldn't have an age limit, and, if they do, that means whoever is running it is just a big douche who needs to learn that good players can be any age. When I was 19, I went to Tuscon and got my *** handed to me by this 14 or 15-year old who plays Jigglypuff. Had he not been allowed to play in tournaments, I can tell you that Pound 3 would have turned out differently. That's dumb.

Back tot he point though, Yoshi doesn't have much going for him. Obviously, he is limited in recovery issues, like I said, or you can at least admit that when you compre that to other characters. Yes, Snake is in a similar situation, but at least he has the C4 thing and the grenades to use as recovery. He has further options. He doesn't. When someone gets knocked off, you don't have to worry about if they are going to use their double jump and then Up B or just Up B or just Double jump. You KNOW Yoshi is going to double jump. At least in Melee he could air dodge towards the stage, but they took that out.

Where do you play as Yoshi? If you go air, most of those moves can be stopped by a solid ground move. His legs are stubbly, and don't give him much range. The closest thing to that is his tail, but it is also short in the air. His up air can hit consecutively, but what is he going to do afterwards? Fair? Plus, hitstun is so low now that it is really hard to keep someone in any group of hits. It'll be really hard to U air and then DJC U air before they can airdodge or anything.

If you go on the ground, then you have problems too. He's not the fastest character, but he does good. However, his moves are slow to cool-down. After you down smash, forward smash, and up smash, there's a moment where he sits there waiting for anyone who spot-dodged to punish him. The egg toss leaves him open and it's not like the egg is hard to dodge, even though you can angle it. Plus, what is Yoshi going to do when it does hit you? Throw another or dash attack. That's about all of his options. And reason why I say the draconic reverse doesn't do anything is because we have to remember that this a defensive game. If you use this to get in close to someone then, then you had better hope they don't do ANY move. The best use it has is running away from hits, but you can't do it, unless I can be proven wrong, to punish people. You can't go back and forth so fast as to hit a few people out of their Smashes.

His forward B did get a buff, not everything in the world knocks him out of it now. Question, can you grab him out of it with a normal, non tether grab? In either case, the move is still bad, unless the other person has horrible timing. All you have to do is set it up like baseball and hit him out of the park! His Down B is also bad. The only good use it has accumulated over the game has been to grab the edge. Woopty Do. If Yoshi is high over the edge, I EXPECT THEM TO DO IT. That's why, in Melee, I would go off the edge and hit Yoshi until he had to do something. If you wait for him to get back, he can take more risks with weird moves to get weird results. So doing nothing is a bad idea: doing anything is a much better idea. Plus there's the stuff about how he can't jump out of his shield.

Is he so bad that he's unplayable? No, you can play him and get a few stocks off. Hey, you may even win a match or two against your friends or even in a tournament, but I don't expect to see Yoshi doing anything in the competitive scene, at least at this point. that's why he's low. No one plays him, he doesn't have anything going for him, and he doesn't have good results. Yoshi sucks. He sucks. you may not suck, but he does. Go win that tournament and prove me wrong, and,. if you can, record it for the world to see! However, I'll be here to pat you on the back when you don't make it out of pools when a few hundred Snakes/MK show up and beat you. It's crazy how popular and good they are, and you just have to dace the fact you are going to be facing them at the end of the day. Good luck, and Yoshi sucks.

 

[fkacyan]

MK is actually even with or maybe slightly better than Yoshi.

Snake is a better example in this case.

 

[Grunt]

Gannondorf is (unfortunately) in a TOP TEEEER!

fixed
Ganon pwn all.

 

[Johnknight1]

@ poster 11 comments above (people post a lot on this thread, don't they? ): A lot of that is WAY off. For exampel, there is No way Lucario is that high. Samus and Ganondorf are much worse then Captain Falcon. And Peach should be more towards the middle of the lower-tiers.

*resists pet peeve urge to everyone to format the tiers 7:8:7:8:7 despite tourney results...and fails thanks to this*

LOL at Smooth Criminal fearing Melee Samus. I think I may have found a new Melee main *beats rabbid space animal to death*.... >_>

-Smooth Johnknight1

 

[itsthebigfoot]

^i think that post came a few hours late buddy

 

[Corigames]

I play Melee Samus at a high skill level. However... since no one plays Melee anymore on a grand scale, even remotely near me, I can't try my new abilities on anyone other than my competitent roommate. But playing one person over and over again is boring and all you are doing is learning how they play. It doesn't do anything for you.

-Smooth CoreyGAMES

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Winning tournaments isn't exaclty everything though, how they placed overall also counts.


Consistent Top 8 and above placers usually indicate a character is being played well by multiple different people, while characters who have a large amount of wins but few actual over placings could lead to it just being one person who's really good.

AlphaZealot brought it up earlier, we also need to look at HOW many people are successful with that character.

that can be argued though, to me consistent top 8 placement without wins means that they're just popular characters that really aren't that good, while several wins with very little top 8 means that they're good when actually played, but almost no one plays them (i.e. dk and wario, both good with very few mains)

 

[Johnknight1]

^i think that post came a few hours late buddy

It took me not even 15 minutes. WTF? I guess that's what you get on a thread people debate over (pointlessly in most cases) for hours upon hours at a time. If someone told me they've debated on this threads for weeks without getting off the computer or actually playing the game-I would believe them.

-Smooth Johnknight1!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I play Melee Samus at a high skill level. However... since no one plays Melee anymore on a grand scale, even remotely near me, I can't try my new abilities on anyone other than my competitent roommate. But playing one person over and over again is boring and all you are doing is learning how they play. It doesn't do anything for you.

-Smooth CoreyGAMES

>___>

Come to GA. I'm an excellent punching bag, Corey. You'll at least be able to polish up on your tech skill.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Corigames]

If someone told me they've debated on this threads for weeks without getting off the computer or actually playing the game-I would believe them.

I don't play Brawl and this place is the closest thing I have to a social life.

To that other guy talking about the number of people playing a character:
If a character isn't played by a lot of people, it's probably because they suck >_>

@Smooth

I want a ride. I would do anything to get a ride there. I have like $40 to my name and I NEED to get to GA! When is it? If it's in November, I'll be in WV and it may be a faster ride. But I'm currently in AZ and I have to get to GA. Oh please, someone, ANYONE, road trip plox!

- Smooth COREYgames

 

[Yuna-Maria]

>___>

Come to GA. I'm an excellent punching bag, Corey. You'll at least be able to polish up on your tech skill.

Smooth Criminal

I second this notion. I need someone to teach me Melee Samus.

 

[Corigames]

(480) 255- 9538
Give me a call to get a ride to GA with Smooth Criminal!

...or phone sex.

But, yeah. If a character isn't good, they shouldn't be placed high. This is why the low are low >_> Consequently, this is why the high are high <_<

 

[stoopdklutz]

oops man, sorry. Porgot Link.

 

[yoshiunity]

I like how Yoshi sucks, and, if you point out that simple fact, then you are attacked by a wave of youngsters too young to enter scrub tournaments. Tournaments shouldn't have an age limit, and, if they do, that means whoever is running it is just a big douche who needs to learn that good players can be any age. When I was 19, I went to Tuscon and got my *** handed to me by this 14 or 15-year old who plays Jigglypuff. Had he not been allowed to play in tournaments, I can tell you that Pound 3 would have turned out differently. That's dumb.

Back tot he point though, Yoshi doesn't have much going for him. Obviously, he is limited in recovery issues, like I said, or you can at least admit that when you compre that to other characters. Yes, Snake is in a similar situation, but at least he has the C4 thing and the grenades to use as recovery. He has further options. He doesn't. When someone gets knocked off, you don't have to worry about if they are going to use their double jump and then Up B or just Up B or just Double jump. You KNOW Yoshi is going to double jump. At least in Melee he could air dodge towards the stage, but they took that out.

Where do you play as Yoshi? If you go air, most of those moves can be stopped by a solid ground move. His legs are stubbly, and don't give him much range. The closest thing to that is his tail, but it is also short in the air. His up air can hit consecutively, but what is he going to do afterwards? Fair? Plus, hitstun is so low now that it is really hard to keep someone in any group of hits. It'll be really hard to U air and then DJC U air before they can airdodge or anything.

If you go on the ground, then you have problems too. He's not the fastest character, but he does good. However, his moves are slow to cool-down. After you down smash, forward smash, and up smash, there's a moment where he sits there waiting for anyone who spot-dodged to punish him. The egg toss leaves him open and it's not like the egg is hard to dodge, even though you can angle it. Plus, what is Yoshi going to do when it does hit you? Throw another or dash attack. That's about all of his options. And reason why I say the draconic reverse doesn't do anything is because we have to remember that this a defensive game. If you use this to get in close to someone then, then you had better hope they don't do ANY move. The best use it has is running away from hits, but you can't do it, unless I can be proven wrong, to punish people. You can't go back and forth so fast as to hit a few people out of their Smashes.

His forward B did get a buff, not everything in the world knocks him out of it now. Question, can you grab him out of it with a normal, non tether grab? In either case, the move is still bad, unless the other person has horrible timing. All you have to do is set it up like baseball and hit him out of the park! His Down B is also bad. The only good use it has accumulated over the game has been to grab the edge. Woopty Do. If Yoshi is high over the edge, I EXPECT THEM TO DO IT. That's why, in Melee, I would go off the edge and hit Yoshi until he had to do something. If you wait for him to get back, he can take more risks with weird moves to get weird results. So doing nothing is a bad idea: doing anything is a much better idea. Plus there's the stuff about how he can't jump out of his shield.

Is he so bad that he's unplayable? No, you can play him and get a few stocks off. Hey, you may even win a match or two against your friends or even in a tournament, but I don't expect to see Yoshi doing anything in the competitive scene, at least at this point. that's why he's low. No one plays him, he doesn't have anything going for him, and he doesn't have good results. Yoshi sucks. He sucks. you may not suck, but he does. Go win that tournament and prove me wrong, and,. if you can, record it for the world to see! However, I'll be here to pat you on the back when you don't make it out of pools when a few hundred Snakes/MK show up and beat you. It's crazy how popular and good they are, and you just have to dace the fact you are going to be facing them at the end of the day. Good luck, and Yoshi sucks.

Dude. All I'm getting form this is that is not just you THINK he sucks, but you WANT him to suck.

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4855074&postcount=1208

If this isn't true, the who the hell to you play against that uses Yoshi? Do they even know what the how the recovery can be used? And what kind of player uses a smash when it's predictable anyway? Common sense in Samsh bros. Jumping out of his shield.... (People will never let that die.) Yeah, it's a flaw. But it's been obivous for years. Yoshi users know not to sit in that thing forever. Sidestep or roll back. Forward if you're at a good distance.

And by the way." Yoshi sucks. He sucks. you may not suck, but he does." What does that mean? That if a person is able to use Yoshi really good, Yoshi will still be bad? So if he wins the tournment. (Meaning that he knows Yoshi's shortcomings, worked around them, and beat the so called "Top tier infested" tournment.) Yoshi will still suck?

 

[stoopdklutz]

(480) 255- 9538
Give me a call to get a ride to GA with Smooth Criminal!

...or phone sex.

But, yeah. If a character isn't good, they shouldn't be placed high. This is why the low are low >_> Consequently, this is why the high are high <_<

haha Corey, redundancy.

 

[Corigames]

I don't play any Yoshi's because my friends don't suck at Smash. You think he doesn't suck just because you DON'T WANT him to suck.

See what I did there?

 

[Yuna-Maria]

haha Corey, redundancy.

I think that was the point. Either that or the poor guy lost his train of thought.