Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Frown]

hay guise i can haves tier list

top:
snake
meta knight

bottom:
everyone else

If I got a penny every time I heard that I'd have... eleven pennies!

 

[Pieisthebest]

Here is my opinion

Top:

Snake
MetaKnight

High:

G&W
DDD
Falco
ROB
Marth
Wario
DK
olimar
Wolf

Mid:

Fox
Lucario
Zelda
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Toon Link
Pit
Peach
Ness
Diddy Kong
Luigi
ZSS

Low:

Mario
Lucas
Sheik
Bowser
Link
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer

Bottom:

Ike
Jigglypuff
Samus
Captain Falcon

 

[Blistering Speed]

hay guise i can haves tier list

top:
snake
meta knight

middle:
everyone else

bottom:
Samus

Fixed

10samussux

 

[brg]

Why is Dedede not 3rd? In all the placings I see there is always a dedede in the mix, and rarely a g&w

 

[ShadowLink84]

because tourney results are only a factor in a tier list they don't dictate a tier list by themselves.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Granted, they do have a considerable amount, if not the most influence out of all the catergories involved in producing one.

 

[XeroFaith]

I can agree with Assassin's Top and High Tier part. As of the rest. I say we need more toury to tell where they belong.

 

[DanGR]

Pieisthebeast- Olimar is the only name you don't have capitalized...

Anyways, tourney results do mean a lot, and that's the first thing you have to look at when you make your tiers. Then you look at matchups and potential.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

double post

 

[PIMPSLAP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbgxF7EvwlM

you say samus sucks. thats tgm he's play a insane samus you just need to be smart to play with samus.


I know main sheik becasue after looking speciffically. At all the charecter sheik has the most going for her she like every other charecter has inherent weaknesses but hers can be dealt with if you just space yourself.
in the next year sheik will climb the tier list and be in the top tier like in melee. ( the early days )

Richard Stone OuT

 

[ShadowLink84]

Any Samus would look good playing bad players.

@Dangr and NSS: No I wasn't saying tourney's don't play a major facto. I was explaining to an earlier question on why DDD wasn'tt third on the list despite the tourney results. mainly because while tourney results due play a major factor, the other factors such as matchups will either pull the character higher or lower.


Edit: I was looking at smashwiki and I must say some things about Sonic annoy me.

* Spring Jump can't sweetspot the ledge on the way up and has minimal horizontal range.From platform height he can traverse 3/4ths of the stage on FD. Sweetspotting is true though.
* Can be juggled easily. What? Dair gets him to the ground really quick, springs gets him out of juggles easily.
* Lacks a reliable way to deal with projectiles Spindash, spincharge, spinshot, dash shield cancel.
* Speed can be nullified by repeated projectiles. Read above comment
* Large lag if Down A misses and can result in Self Destructs. Can be canceled wqith a jump and spring jump as long as it isn't done on platform level.
* Limited range on forward smash and has noticeable start up and ending lag. Limited range is false due to stutter step otherwise the statement is correct
* Down Smash has limited knockback. I don't understand this since it has power comparable to MK's and better range.

 

[Blistering Speed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbgxF7EvwlM

you say samus sucks. thats tgm he's play a insane samus you just need to be smart to play with samus.


I know main sheik becasue after looking speciffically. At all the charecter sheik has the most going for her she like every other charecter has inherent weaknesses but hers can be dealt with if you just space yourself.
in the next year sheik will climb the tier list and be in the top tier like in melee. ( the early days )

Richard Stone OuT

That combo video, whilst entertaining (epic Z Airs) was just a combo video, nothing more. I know of an epic CF combo vid, but it proves nothing.

Also Shiek will never go higher then middle Im afraid, as awesome as she is (wtfactualcomboz).

 

[LuigiKing]

I am so confused at the placement of Luigi in almost all of these tiers lists. I know the back room has the final word, but most people here are pretty informed, and no one seems to like Luigi =/ I know I'm a fanboy of the little green man, and have mained him since the first day of the first game, but comon now, he gets no respect.

First thing I would like to point out is his tourny results, and wow are they aweful. I think we only have a couple tourny level players out there (ones that come to mind are KA-master and Void), and not many others even dare to main Luigi. I would try and help out his tourny scene, but I live in N. Idaho, so what are you gonna do? Either way, I'm not sure tourny results are enough to totally discredit him yet. So noting that fact, lets take a look at matchups and moveset potential.

Mathups:
OK, to get it out of the way, MK ***** him, every time, in every way. I found this out at my first tourny pretty early on that this is possibly his hardest matchup yet. If you'll glance through this topic http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174824, you'll find (accoriding to us at the Luigi board), that he really has some good ones besides G&W and MK, who don't really have any counters =/ Either way, Luigi can outprioritize Snake is almost every way, and can juggle him like a madman up to around 60%. You can even drop through a Snake Usmash with Luigi's nair and hit snake into an air combo, its outstanding. Another high character Luigi trashes is Olimar, hands down. IMO this is Luigi's best matchup against a generally considered high tier character, as there is simply no way for Olimar to approach in this matchup. Nair goes through Usmash and Utilt, and tornado clangs everything else. Luigi has solid matchups against pretty much everyone below him tier wise as well.

Moveset:

Great projectile, just go watch Void pressure with it, its great. Luigi also has a great jab cancel that can lead to plenty of other moves, a la the uppercut. Now the uppercut is probably Luigi's best move, in all honesty, considering the hitbox is gigantic for what you get out of it. If a MK makes one mistake and dash attacks you, or lets out the whorenado just a little too early, you can get a kill at 43% on final destination. That is absolutely terrifying. Luigi also has great recovery, as long as you know how to save the tornado, and how to sweetspot the ledge, you're in great shape against pretty much any character. Luigi is also one of the few characters, in my opinion, who can truly combo. He has a great tech chase (in my opinion) with the DAC (even though its really difficult to pull off) or sliding up smash. His throws are good, especially the down throw for comboing, and the back throw for kills at around 100%. There is one last thing that has to be brought up, the dair spike. People say its too hard to do, but a good Luigi mainer is going to know when and how to use it. I managed to pull it off at the tourny I went too, and even if you miss, hey, its got fine knockback anyway. Luigi's bair is great for psudo wall of paining, considering his recovery is so good.

To make a long story short, I think Luigi should be somewhere in high tier, probably closer to Lucario. All I've seen is him in low and middle of mid tier, and its rediculous. I know tourny results do comprise a lot of it, but in this situation people are taking his tourny results as 90% of his placement, not fricking 33% like it should be. Anyway, thats my two cents.

 

[SuperLink9]

My friend plays a mean Link, I don't think he's pro level but he wouldn't do badly in a tournament, so it's good to see Link moving up a little in the tourney rankings.

Shame about Yoshi though. I don't think it's that he's awful, but lots of people use him and don't try because his look and moves are off putting at first glance. He has decent air game though.

Good to see Game&Watch is high up there, at the same time it makes me think I'm unoriginal again . Oh well, I might have liked him before a lot of others

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Here's mine; its just a modified version of Shears'.

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
Mr. Game and Watch
Falco
Dedede
Marth
ROB
Toon Link
Wario

Upper Mid:
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Wolf
Kirby
Pikachu
Diddy Kong

Mid:
Lucario
Luigi
Fox
Lucas
Olimar
Sheik

Lower Mid:
Zero Suit Samus
Peach
Pit
Ness
Link
Pokemon Trainer
Ike

Low:
Mario
Bowser
Yoshi
Samus
Sonic
Jigglypuff

Bottom:
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

 

[sHy)(gUy]

^ wow, never post again...

Putting olimar that low is not only ******** but worthy of a ban.

Yes you could say i hav3 a biases (sp?) towards olimar but only because i bieleve he is that good. Regardless of tourney placings, olimar will be high tier(or the tier below top)

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

Here's mine; its just a modified version of Shears'.

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
Mr. Game and Watch
Falco
Dedede
Marth
ROB
Toon Link
Wario

Upper Mid:
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Wolf
Kirby
Pikachu
Diddy Kong

Mid:
Lucario
Luigi
Fox
Lucas
Olimar
Sheik

Lower Mid:
Zero Suit Samus
Peach
Pit
Ness
Link
Pokemon Trainer
Ike

Low:
Mario
Bowser
Yoshi
Samus
Sonic
Jigglypuff

Bottom:
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

Mario is low tier? Why is Link so high up? Has PT and Link been performing better than Mario???

 

[salaboB]

Yes you could say i hav3 a biases (sp?) towards olimar but only because i bieleve he is that good. Regardless of tourney placings, olimar will be high tier(or the tier below top)

"It doesn't matter how he performs in actual play, if he looks good on paper he should be high tier"

I can buy it for now, the tourney rankings are still pretty heavily popularity contests. But I don't think you can state he is going to end up high tier if he doesn't get some good tourney showings eventually.

 

[joeysmash]

olimar would be Top tier if not for the stupid reocvery which is a complete joke.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

olimar would be Top tier if not for the stupid reocvery which is a complete joke.

Capt. Falcon would be top tier if he had his old knee hitbox and he had a rocket launcher for a projectile.

 

[sHy)(gUy]

its not that he looks good on paper because he really doesnt, bad recovery etc.... its just how good he actually is when compared to the rest of the cast.
Olimar is high tier eod....

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

^^^^
um... what the heck is this? SPAM ALERT?!

 

[Onxy]

WTH was that? I had a hard time just from scrolling down...

 

[Shears]

its not that he looks good on paper because he really doesnt, bad recovery etc.... its just how good he actually is when compared to the rest of the cast.
Olimar is high tier sod.... (start of discussion)

fixed.

-looking at olimar and hes seems to be the greatest character in the game. a long range grab that is quick and can be spammed, with little lag
-long range smashes that are powerful and fast
-unpredictable: clouded by pikmin with all his moves looking the same, this guy is tricky
-powerful projectiles that eat away at your shield, damage, have knockback, and cause move decay/prevent attacking
-high priority and power in most moves with great KO moves and damage dealing moves
-dair meteors when sweet spotted giving him a great, low percent KO opportunity
-smallest character which allows for easy evasiveness and is hard to hit
-SA frames with downB

honestly with all this pros, on paper no cons could put him far from the top.

but compared to the rest of the cast his recovery sucks, so bad that when playing an olimar he can be KOed from 0% without gaining more than 30% damage. approach from diagnols to avoid smashes and tilts. airdodge pikmin. shield grab aerial approaches while sidestepping tossed pikmin. knock off edge and youve won. his upB will either knock you off the ledge you edgehog or grab on, it cant do both. now dont say a good olimar will avoid going off the edge because thats pretty much the objective of every smasher, to avoid possible death. since hes light hes easy to knock off which means easy to kill. thats why i dont have olimar high tier.

 

[Yonder]

I am so confused at the placement of Luigi in almost all of these tiers lists. I know the back room has the final word, but most people here are pretty informed, and no one seems to like Luigi =/ I know I'm a fanboy of the little green man, and have mained him since the first day of the first game, but comon now, he gets no respect.

First thing I would like to point out is his tourny results, and wow are they aweful. I think we only have a couple tourny level players out there (ones that come to mind are KA-master and Void), and not many others even dare to main Luigi. I would try and help out his tourny scene, but I live in N. Idaho, so what are you gonna do? Either way, I'm not sure tourny results are enough to totally discredit him yet. So noting that fact, lets take a look at matchups and moveset potential.

Mathups:
OK, to get it out of the way, MK ***** him, every time, in every way. I found this out at my first tourny pretty early on that this is possibly his hardest matchup yet. If you'll glance through this topic http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174824, you'll find (accoriding to us at the Luigi board), that he really has some good ones besides G&W and MK, who don't really have any counters =/ Either way, Luigi can outprioritize Snake is almost every way, and can juggle him like a madman up to around 60%. You can even drop through a Snake Usmash with Luigi's nair and hit snake into an air combo, its outstanding. Another high character Luigi trashes is Olimar, hands down. IMO this is Luigi's best matchup against a generally considered high tier character, as there is simply no way for Olimar to approach in this matchup. Nair goes through Usmash and Utilt, and tornado clangs everything else. Luigi has solid matchups against pretty much everyone below him tier wise as well.

Moveset:

Great projectile, just go watch Void pressure with it, its great. Luigi also has a great jab cancel that can lead to plenty of other moves, a la the uppercut. Now the uppercut is probably Luigi's best move, in all honesty, considering the hitbox is gigantic for what you get out of it. If a MK makes one mistake and dash attacks you, or lets out the whorenado just a little too early, you can get a kill at 43% on final destination. That is absolutely terrifying. Luigi also has great recovery, as long as you know how to save the tornado, and how to sweetspot the ledge, you're in great shape against pretty much any character. Luigi is also one of the few characters, in my opinion, who can truly combo. He has a great tech chase (in my opinion) with the DAC (even though its really difficult to pull off) or sliding up smash. His throws are good, especially the down throw for comboing, and the back throw for kills at around 100%. There is one last thing that has to be brought up, the dair spike. People say its too hard to do, but a good Luigi mainer is going to know when and how to use it. I managed to pull it off at the tourny I went too, and even if you miss, hey, its got fine knockback anyway. Luigi's bair is great for psudo wall of paining, considering his recovery is so good.

To make a long story short, I think Luigi should be somewhere in high tier, probably closer to Lucario. All I've seen is him in low and middle of mid tier, and its rediculous. I know tourny results do comprise a lot of it, but in this situation people are taking his tourny results as 90% of his placement, not fricking 33% like it should be. Anyway, thats my two cents.

I so agree with you dude, Luigi is high tier material, and very underrated. To bad I can't go to tournaments either. Let's just hope that Luigi gets his right placing soon, or else it's everyone calling him low tier all over again.

 

[Browny]

lol, luigis bthrow KO'ing at 100% is a GROSS overestimation. maybe right on the very edge of corneria.

and lol @ luigi going even with snake. theres a reason why snake is the best in the game...

 

[Timbers]

Luigi's bthrow kills at like 170% from center of FD lol

Snake has his "bad" matchups, and has even more neutral matchups. I personally don't know the specifics on the matchup, but just because Snake is currently top tier doesn't suddenly mean he's better than Luigi.

 

[Snail]

Here's mine; its just a modified version of Shears'.

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
Mr. Game and Watch
Falco
Dedede
Marth
ROB
Toon Link
Wario

Upper Mid:
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Wolf
Kirby
Pikachu
Diddy Kong

Mid:
Lucario
Luigi
Fox
Lucas
Olimar
Sheik

Lower Mid:
Zero Suit Samus
Peach
Pit
Ness
Link
Pokemon Trainer
Ike

Low:
Mario
Bowser
Yoshi
Samus
Sonic
Jigglypuff

Bottom:
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

If you're putting Olimar in lower-mid just because his recovery sucks, just look at Melee's Falco. He's not as easy to get off the edge as some people here think, because if he was, he wouldn't be winning tournaments. And to the one guy claiming Olimar's tourney results aren't good enough for high tier; He's currently 6th on the latest rankings list, and that's above Falco and G&W - and you put both of them on the top of the high tier.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Come on, people... I thought we weren't going to keep quoting entire tier lists.

tier list

Like that. Click the blue arrow for reference and it saves everyone time.

 

[Snail]

Err, yeah, but I thought it would be more dramatic to quote the entire thing. xDD I'll stop doing it now.

 

[Critical King]

didn't know captin falcon and ganondorf were that bad in brawl they were sick in melee. are they that bad?

 

[Timbers]

didn't know captin falcon and ganondorf were that bad in brawl they were sick in melee. are they that bad?

To be quite honest I'd put jiggz and samus beneath ganon, but yeah pretty much.

 

[Adapt]

Come on, people... I thought we weren't going to keep quoting entire tier lists.

Like that. Click the blue arrow for reference and it saves everyone time.

I also don't see why we can't write out our tier lists like:

S: Snake, Meta Knight, King Dedede
A: Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, ROB, Wario, Falco, Olimar
B: Donkey Kong, Wolf, Fox, Ice Climbers, Kirby, Pit
C: Peach, Ness, Diddy Kong, Toon Link, Pikachu, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Zelda, Zero Suit Samus, Samus, Bowser, Ike, Jigglypuff, Pokémon Trainer
D: Lucas, Sonic, Ganondorf
E: Mario, Link, Sheik
U: Yoshi

AKA Horizontal. It saves so much space while not making it any harder to read

(list borrowed from Ankoku's tourney placings because it is a perfect example)


also, it shows that Olimar is 10th in the rankings... not 6th like someone said

 

[Snail]

I also don't see why we can't write out our tier lists like:

S: Snake, Meta Knight, King Dedede
A: Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, ROB, Wario, Falco, Olimar
B: Donkey Kong, Wolf, Fox, Ice Climbers, Kirby, Pit
C: Peach, Ness, Diddy Kong, Toon Link, Pikachu, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Zelda, Zero Suit Samus, Samus, Bowser, Ike, Jigglypuff, Pokémon Trainer
D: Lucas, Sonic, Ganondorf
E: Mario, Link, Sheik
U: Yoshi

AKA Horizontal. It saves so much space while not making it any harder to read

(list borrowed from Ankoku's tourney placings because it is a perfect example)


also, it shows that Olimar is 10th in the rankings... not 6th like someone said

Oh, you're right. I was looking at the wrong list :/ You know, in the thread, the first list that comes up is like this:

S: Snake, Meta Knight
A: King Dedede, ROB, Marth, Olimar
B: Falco, Mr. Game & Watch, Wario, Lucario, Wolf
C: Pit, Donkey Kong, Fox, Kirby, Ice Climbers, Ness, Diddy Kong, Luigi, Peach
D: Zelda, Zero Suit Samus, Bowser, Samus, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Ike
E: Lucas, Pokémon Trainer, Sonic, Ganondorf, Toon Link, Mario, Sheik, Captain Falcon
U: Link, Yoshi

But apparently that's not the most up-to-date.
Either way, it doesn't matter if he's 6th or 10th. What does matter is that he does well enough in tournaments for a high-tier spot. Thanks for pointing it out though :/ I have to pay more attention sometimes.

 

[DanGR]

responses in green

fixed.

I'm gettin tired of this crap. He looks good on paper AND in tourneys, so WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL Y'ALL??? 6th in summer tourneys,(he might move above marth if all the people that place actually new about the freakin thread like I did!!!)

-looking at olimar and hes seems to be the greatest character in the game. a long range grab that is quick and can be spammed, with little lag
he's obviously not the best. He's VERY good though.
-long range smashes that are powerful and fast
true, though if you played an olimar regularly, you'd know that they actually have rather low priority. :X
-unpredictable: clouded by pikmin with all his moves looking the same, this guy is tricky
If you can get used to him, he becomes much easier to fight, but still.
-powerful projectiles that eat away at your shield, damage, have knockback, and cause move decay/prevent attacking
I'll give you that one
-high priority and power in most moves with great KO moves and damage dealing moves
his ground smashes have low priority, but great power and damage. His aerials have good priority and knockback though.
-dair meteors when sweet spotted giving him a great, low percent KO opportunity
most characters have a spike
-smallest character which allows for easy evasiveness and is hard to hit
he's not the smallest. Squirtle is the smallest.
-SA frames with downB

honestly with all this pros, on paper no cons could put him far from the top.
you're right, now leave it there, he has proved it, but no...

but compared to the rest of the cast his recovery sucks, so bad that when playing an olimar he can be KOed from 0% without gaining more than 30% damage.
WRONG, I've explained myself literally about 20 times PROVING that it isn't an issue. You obviously have never played against a decent olimar if that's^ true.
-downb SA frames prevents more knockback after the initial blow.
-he's floaty horizontally.
-long chain, despite it's easyness to edgehog it is very quick and long.
-ever heard of second jump?
-if you don't time the L right, he can mind game you into doing it early allowing olimar to recover normally, or if you do it too late, he can spike you from the chain.
-ever seen the small boost it gives him, unlike every other character's tether?
-most stages are small enough for the second jump to get him within stage distance without having to tether the stage.


approach from diagnols to avoid smashes and tilts.
-true, but most attacks can be shieldgrabbed.(notables are marth's fair, the turtle, bowser's fair, zelda's fair)
-Empty spotdodges or airdodges don't work against Olimar particularly.
airdodge pikmin.
yah right, you can't keep that up for long.
shield grab aerial approaches while sidestepping tossed pikmin.
olimar doesn't approach with attacks that can be shieldgrabbed. period. The only characters that he actually has to approach are the spacies. That's it. the rest can be camped just outside their range(on attacks)
knock off edge and youve won.
...again?
his upB will either knock you off the ledge you edgehog or grab on, it cant do both. now dont say a good olimar will avoid going off the edge because thats pretty much the objective of every smasher, to avoid possible death. since hes light hes easy to knock off which means easy to kill. thats why i dont have olimar high tier.
except that he's the hardest character to GET OFF the stage. Even then, your argument is ridiculous.

AKA Horizontal. It saves so much space while not making it any harder to read
I agree, it saves space, and nothing more, nothing less.

also, it shows that Olimar is 10th in the rankings... not 6th like someone said

For the summer rankings he's 6th. I think that Ankoku doesn't update the overall standings anymore.

 

[gantrain05]

i wish i had more olimar experience, i've only ever played against 1 olimar, and he was just ok, i ended up killing him pretty bad with ganon, lucas, and ness. nobody around iowa seems to play olimar at all.

 

[Snail]

i wish i had more olimar experience, i've only ever played against 1 olimar, and he was just ok, i ended up killing him pretty bad with ganon, lucas, and ness. nobody around iowa seems to play olimar at all.

If you beat him with Ganon, which is probably one of Olimar's easiest matchups, you can safely assume the Olimar you played sucks :D

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I hate playing Olimar, because is always seems to be a good chance they're a Pikmin throw/Smash spammer >_>.

 

[Snail]

I hate playing Olimar, because is always seems to be a good chance they're a Pikmin throw/Smash spammer >_>.

Aw, it's okay ._. We hate playing Meta Knights too >_>

 

[Adapt]

Ankoku should be updating the stats sometime today I think


btw dangr... you can't say that olimar's recovery is not among the worst in the game. It may not be the absolute worst, but it still sucks