Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Corigames]

I mean, in Brawl, it's clear that Samus isn't good or that Lucario is better than Link or something

But in Melee I, for example, wouldn't say that Yoshi is bad.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I mean, in Brawl, it's clear that Samus isn't good or that Lucario is better than Link or something

But in Melee I, for example, wouldn't say that Yoshi is bad.

I would.

10repetitivechar

 

[sHy)(gUy]

I still think its way too early to say anything about tiers =/

I mean in melee, its clear that kirby isnt good or that doc is better than mario or something

but in brawl i for example wouldnt say that yoshi is bad

I would too(edit)....

Things are becoming pretty clear as far as the top and bottom characters. Almost 99% of people would agree snake and metaknight are top tier... Its also pretty obvious yoshi,falcon and jiggz suck whale balls.

The middle section section of the tier list is still whats widely unkown to us... it varies greatly

I think its safe to say right now that Snake and metaknight are the best characters and dedede,r.o.b,marth,falco,olimar,g&w,wario,pit,wolf,pikachu,zelda,DK etc... are really good

and jigglypuff is really really really bad

really bad

 

[salaboB]

I would too(edit)....

Things are becoming pretty clear as far as the top and bottom characters. Almost 99% of people would agree snake and metaknight are top tier... Its also pretty obvious yoshi,falcon and jiggz suck whale balls.

The middle section section of the tier list is still whats widely unkown to us... it varies greatly

I think its safe to say right now that Snake and metaknight are the best characters and dedede,r.o.b,marth,falco,olimar,g&w,wario,pit,wolf,pikachu,zelda,DK etc... are really good

and jigglypuff is really really really bad

really bad

Be interesting to see who enters the tournaments vs. who makes it to the top -- declaring these "bad" characters doesn't mean much without knowing if anyone even has tried to win with them or not (And C. Falcon even has some tourney showing (He's solid mid-tier by Ankoku's most up-to-date posted tourney results!) since people actually tried to use him in some, go figure)

I'd say anything below mid is actually relatively unknown, even most of those who have been relegated to the bottom seem to be mostly there due to unpopularity (ie, they just don't have the presence to win and the really skilled players are using other mains), not necessarily poor showings (Someone good tried really hard with them but lost anyway to other skilled opponents).

 

[sHy)(gUy]

ill bet 1000 dollars capt. falcon yoshi and jigglypuff are bottom tier when the first official brawl tier list comes out. any takers?

 

[bigman40]

I bet you wouldn't keep that bet.

 

[Rambo23]

Cap has potential I think he will be able to make it out of bottom tier and move up to low tier eventually at the very least. It will take some time but he will be able to move up I mean he will never be top or high tier but he might make mid tier.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

I think Captain maybe will end up low tier, maybe in the 2010-2011 list...

 

[Yuna-Maria]

I still think its way too early to say anything about tiers =/

I mean in melee, its clear that kirby isnt good or that doc is better than mario or something

but in brawl i for example wouldnt say that yoshi is bad

Please just leave before a firestorm erupts.

 

[manhunter098]

Well as far as character rankings go (tournament results), Falcon is in the middle right now. Only two characters are in the bottom group and they are Link and Yoshi.

Take a look at this.


Most up-to-date rankings, no details: (last updated July 2, 2008)
S: Snake, Meta Knight, King Dedede
A: Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, ROB, Wario, Falco, Olimar
B: Donkey Kong, Wolf, Fox, Ice Climbers, Kirby, Pit
C: Toon Link, Peach, Ness, Diddy Kong, Pikachu, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Zelda, Zero Suit Samus, Samus, Bowser, Ike
D: Jigglypuff, Pokémon Trainer
E: Lucas, Sonic, Ganondorf, Mario, Sheik
U: Link, Yoshi
_______________

 

[Kiwikomix]

Man, what's up with Lucas? He's doing terrible.
And I think part of the reason Falcon is doing so well lately is that people want to prove that they can do well with the "worst character in the game".
Link and Yoshi better step up their games...

 

[manhunter098]

I think that the reason Falcon is doing kind of average is because he is a kind of average character. I mean he has good range, decent recovery, good speed, he has fast attacks and powerful attacks. His air game is pretty quick for the most part too. Overall Captain Falcon only really suffers from a lack of disjointed hitboxes.


That said I too and definitely surprised at Lucas's low spot on the ranking list, because I KNOW he is a much better character than the rankings would suggest.

 

[Onxy]

I think PT will rise quite a bit in the future.

 

[Red Alloy]

I think that the reason Falcon is doing kind of average is because he is a kind of average character. I mean he has good range, decent recovery, good speed, he has fast attacks and powerful attacks. His air game is pretty quick for the most part too. Overall Captain Falcon only really suffers from a lack of disjointed hitboxes.

And a lack of priority. And a lack of a projectile.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I think that the reason Falcon is doing kind of average is because he is a kind of average character. I mean he has good range, decent recovery, good speed, he has fast attacks and powerful attacks. His air game is pretty quick for the most part too. Overall Captain Falcon only really suffers from a lack of disjointed hitboxes.


That said I too and definitely surprised at Lucas's low spot on the ranking list, because I KNOW he is a much better character than the rankings would suggest.

Good Range? Some of his attack's hitboxes are smaller than the actual bodypart he's hitting you with. Decent recovery? Probably, but it's one of the easier ones to gimp. Fast attacks, maybe, but he lags severly on his KO moves for a character meant to be speedy. The only quick aerials I would say he has is Uair and Nair. Falcon suffers from MUCH more than just a lack of disjointed hitboxes, DK has none at all IIRC, yet he's still al likely canadate for Mid, maybe even High Tier. Try remember the fact the main thing he was meant to do is no longer possible due to the physics engine, Terrible Priority and range, Laggy KO moves, Terrible damage output, Telegraphed easily, and has horrible matchups with the grand majority of the roster.

 

[Deathcarter]

Well, IMO Link and Yoshi are better characters than Falcon, but are much more technical and awkward characters to use. Yoshi is self explanatory and Link is a character with projectiles but one that cannot play keep away well.

Captain Falcon is DEFINITELY not easy to play in the tournament scene, but he is much easier to use than Yoshi and Link due to a more natural and simple feel in general.


EDIT: I did not think I would agree with the samus main girl (I suck at remembering names), but Samus to me has seemed to become my new pick for bottom of bottom. Long story short, I beleive she goes even in a matchup with FALCON. Now that sucks.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

I think PT will rise quite a bit in the future.

I truly hope not. G&W's tier rank was the reason I stopped using him. I hate using high tier characters because they always seem like you're playing overly "tourney style" when
you're playing casual. I only use G&W in more competitive matches.

Well, IMO Link and Yoshi are better characters than Falcon, but are much more technical and awkward characters to use. Yoshi is self explanatory and Link is a character with projectiles but one that cannot play keep away well.

Captain Falcon is DEFINITELY not easy to play in the tournament scene, but he is much easier to use than Yoshi and Link due to a more natural and simple feel in general.


EDIT: I did not think I would agree with the samus main girl (I suck at remembering names), but Samus to me has seemed to become my new pick for bottom of bottom. Long story short, I beleive she goes even in a matchup with FALCON. Now that sucks.

I think link should be bottom of the bottom because even though he can be played well, he is waaaay to difficult to learn. Tiers should be based on tourney results and playability (playability also includes the learning curve).

 

[Timbers]

I think link should be bottom of the bottom because even though he can be played well, he is waaaay to difficult to learn. Tiers should be based on tourney results and playability (playability also includes the learning curve).

He should be bottom of bottom because he's too hard to learn?

I laughed

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think link should be bottom of the bottom because even though he can be played well, he is waaaay to difficult to learn. Tiers should be based on tourney results and playability (playability also includes the learning curve).

Playability has never been a factor in tiers.

The assumption of tiers is always "at the highest level of play that the character is capable of", which is why tournament results are used.


Fox and Falco would've been very close to the bottom of melee if tiers included playability because they're hard as h*** to play.



So, how about no? Lets just skip playability because that doesn't factor how good a character is, just how much effort you need to put in.

 

[Kaizo]

Trolling is fun.......wait, someone already explained the relevance of the learning curve to tier lists? Dammit!

Oh! Apparently the same noob that thinks difficult to learn characters should be lower in the tiers also picks his characters according to the tier list. What a noob.

 

[Onxy]

PT only deserves the best.

I'm sure that you'll need more than the Triforce of Courage to enter a tournament with Link.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Actually you'd be surprised how many Link fanboys crop up at every single tournament....and get destroyed in the first round along with those scrubs fighting for their friends.

I'm actually gaining more respect for Yoshi and coming to see the matchups chart for him could use a bit of tweaking. It seems he actually has some better matchups with characters than it first appears, but you're almost required to fight completely different for each character which is a bit unique. He'll probably still crop up in bottom tier thanks to having some catastrophic matchups anyway.

Falcon is quickly proving to be the "Roll from MvC2" of Brawl. We might need to just make a "Captain Falcon Tier", cage up all the falcon mainers as they cry in despair and let everyone else be happy their character isn't the worst.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

If Lucario is doing very well in tourney's and has good matchups, and is a neutral counter to both Snake and MK, why the hell is he in mid tier(I don't main Lucario or am I a pokemon fanboy) isn't he good enough to be Low High Tier?

 

[Timbers]

If Lucario is doing very well in tourney's and has good matchups, and is a neutral counter to both Snake and MK, why the hell is he in mid tier(I don't main Lucario or am I a pokemon fanboy) isn't he good enough to be Low High Tier?

GaW and Olimar trash him. I'd agree that he should be low of High, though. He has no particularly bad matchup outside of those two, except maybe Lucas and TL.

 

[Pieisthebest]

All in favor of Azen winning tourneys for yoshi, say "Aye"

Also, Lucario seems like more of of a high-middle tier character, he isnt good at killing unless he is at high percentages :/
Meh he is still really good.
But I heard shomthing about a grab lock that either Snake or Metaknight had on him, :/
I forgot which

 

[chckn]

All in favor of Azen winning tourneys for yoshi, say "Aye"

Also, Lucario seems like more of of a high-middle tier character, he isnt good at killing unless he is at high percentages :/
Meh he is still really good.
But I heard shomthing about a grab lock that either Snake or Metaknight had on him, :/
I forgot which

Lucario needs to be at the bottom of high. You cannot ignore a nuetral to snake/mk. yeah gw+olimar have an advantage over him but thats two matchups. Also, weve seen that he can perform in tournaments well so I really do not see how anyone could place him lover than bottom of high/very top of mid.

 

[Pieisthebest]

Lucario needs to be at the bottom of high. You cannot ignore a nuetral to snake/mk. yeah gw+olimar have an advantage over him but thats two matchups. Also, weve seen that he can perform in tournaments well so I really do not see how anyone could place him lover than bottom of high/very top of mid.

Indeed >_>

 

[chckn]

Indeed >_>

I lol at your sig

 

[FS Fantom]

GaW and Olimar trash him. I'd agree that he should be low of High, though. He has no particularly bad matchup outside of those two, except maybe Lucas and TL.

All in favor of Azen winning tourneys for yoshi, say "Aye"

Also, Lucario seems like more of of a high-middle tier character, he isnt good at killing unless he is at high percentages :/
Meh he is still really good.
But I heard shomthing about a grab lock that either Snake or Metaknight had on him, :/
I forgot which

A grab lock from those two is a scary thought.

I didn't realize Lucario was considered a neutral matchup to MK/Snake...what's the reasoning behind that?

 

[Kiwikomix]

I didn't realize that either. Seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

*heads over to Lucario boards*

 

[Timbers]

But I heard shomthing about a grab lock that either Snake or Metaknight had on him, :/
I forgot which

Was MK, and was bogus.

I didn't realize that either. Seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

*heads over to Lucario boards*

Lucario has a 60% chaingrab on Snake, and can lead into an additional ~15-25% depending on how Snake reacts. You're also forcing Snake to approach Lucario, and Snake doesn't have a great approach game. So long as Lucario avoids the utilt and c4, he'll stay alive until decent percents. His horizontal resistance is great (jabs and ftilt won't be killing for a while) Also Aurasphere tears through cypher, and Snake's poor horizontal DI and helplessness in the air makes him a great target to abuse his landing frames.

MK, Lucario has a great projectile. Can tear through nado when charged and fsmash spaces well for Lucario in the matchup. Again Lucario has great horizontal resistance, so unless Luc gets shuttle looped off the edge (which is honestly not going to be a huge occurance. Shuttle loop is about as predictable to see coming as Luc's aurasphere) , then he'll be living for a fairly long time. Aura boost. The match is related to Snake vs. MK in the sense that Lucario can outspaceand punish all of MK's approaches, and kills MK at extremely low percents once he reaches 100%. Unlike Snake, Lucario isn't an extremely heavy character, and does have more trouble actually killing MK. We don't have god tier utilt and it's nigh impossible to actually gimp Snake, whereas it's a realistic scenario to gimp Lucario, like the many other characters of the cast.. Aurasphere is pretty nifty though.

Neither of the matches are in Lucario's favor, but they're certainly not at a disadvantage either. It's neutral to both.

 

[FS Fantom]

Well that's well and fine about Snake not being able to approach, but what about someone snake dashing back and forth? If you try and grab them, you're looking at a mortar to the skull, and if you hit them, depending on the attack, they can cancel each other out.

 

[Pieisthebest]

I lol at your sig

Thanks XD
It sucksw that it got cut of though :/
I gotta fix that sometime

Was MK, and was bogus.

Oh ok then
Thanks for clearing that up

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Well DK has advantages over both MK and Snake, and ok tourney results,so he should be in the same tier as Lucario right?

 

[Pieisthebest]

Well DK has advantages over both MK and Snake, and ok tourney results,so he should be in the same tier as Lucario right?

He is probably right above Lucario

 

[Super Mari0]

what? mario is as bad as ganondorf?? no freakin way!

 

[Kaizo]

All in favor of Azen winning tourneys for yoshi, say "Aye"

Also, Lucario seems like more of of a high-middle tier character, he isnt good at killing unless he is at high percentages :/
Meh he is still really good.
But I heard shomthing about a grab lock that either Snake or Metaknight had on him, :/
I forgot which

Judging a character by "how good at killing" he is is next to pointless. It stands that as long as you're racking up damage and not getting hit, you can kill 100% later than your opponent can and still be successful (see Meta Knight and Sonic).

The bigger issues that need to be assessed is how well Lucario compensates for his lack of outright killing strength. Sonic is fast enough to run circles around people and dodge most attacks with ease, and so he can get a lot of damage off without getting hit at all some of the time, but his lack of priority means that his opponents have a lot of room as far as when they can and should attack, since any attack will most likely hit Sonic unless he dodges it and capitalizes on the lag. On the other hand, Meta Knight has obscene amounts of priority and can rack up damage almost effortlessly, so even if one was careless enough to let his best moves get degraded, he can still play the stalling game and tack on damage and get his opponent up to about 200% and then kill him (still ridiculous, but it could happen to even really good Meta Knights, and again it doesn't hurt Meta's game a whole lot). Lucario has a lot of range and good followups, so the real question is if his lack of strength really hurts him in the long run. I'd say he's a whole lot better off than Sonic, but he doesn't have the versatility that Meta has, so he's not godly or anything. I've been using all three, and they're all pretty cool. Blue stuff is so neat =3

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Having 50/50 chances against MK and Snake is no reason for Lucario to go into high tier, imo.
Lucario has bad match-ups against a whole bunch of high-tiered characters (G&W, TL, Marth, Olimar, R.O.B) and his favourable match-ups aren't very impressive - Sheik is the only higher-tiered character, he's really good against. He has a decet amount of advantages but only against characters, who are in lower tiers anyways.

 

[Kaizo]

Is the general consensus that Bowser is relatively high up in mid, and that Sonic doesn't suck? Just wondering who I have to troll next =3

The key to trolling is to troll with the truth

 

[peeup]

woah, woah, when did bowser get past low tier?? I haven't been following this discussion much at all, so somebody please explain. Also, why is DK so high up? Is it his tilt range?