Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Yuna-Maria]

Oh, and her recovery / floatiness which was extremely good in comparison to most characters in Melee? Totally average in Brawl, so she doesn't even have that advantage like she used to. Samus was hit with the nerf bat extremely hard, for no apparent reason whatsoever. It isn't as bad as what happened to Captain Falcon, but it's still pretty terrible.

I feel sorrier for Peach and Fox than Samus. Samus went from mid to low-mid. Peach went from high to BARELY better than the low-tier Samus. As for Fox, well...he's just solid mid, which is okay, but he used to be the best fighter in the game....

 

[Sh1n0b1]

I feel sorrier for Peach and Fox than Samus. Samus went from mid to low-mid. Peach went from high to BARELY better than the low-tier Samus. As for Fox, well...he's just solid mid, which is okay, but he used to be the best fighter in the game....

What about Captain Falcon? He went from 6th best character to possibly the worst!

 

[Yuna-Maria]

What about Captain Falcon. He went from 6th best character to possibly the worst!

Yeah, but the post I quoted already covered Falcon. Falcon goes without saying. Poor guy....

 

[Corigames]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. Samus isn't in Brawl!!!

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

What about Captain Falcon? He went from 6th best character to possibly the worst!

You know she doesn't care all that much for men >_>.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. Samus isn't in Brawl!!!

You know she doesn't care all that much for men >_>.

I lol'd at both of these statements, although it's true I don't dig on the dudes.
Mmmm....Samus......

 

[fkacyan]

You know, the changing of tier positions is entirely irrelevant to the discussion of this game's tiers.

Just letting you know.

 

[Kaizo]

What about Captain Falcon? He went from 6th best character to possibly the worst!

Yea, good thing he's still better than Jiggs >_>

To be honest, Falcon didn't get nerfed that badly, but the fact that comboing and hitstun don't exist, coupled with the fact that the death % was raised by a whole lot, makes him all but useless. Samus is in the same boat, although her missiles/bombs did get nerfed quite a bit. It's as you said, it's not like her recovery got nerfed, it just now pales in comparison to everyone else.

 

[Marty_a.k.a._QueST]

My opinion

TOP
Snake: really good KO potential, many of his moves have a really good hitbox (i.e. his up a) can take a quite a beating. able to plant mines on a person. His recovery is good but is not to be used in a rush lest you get trapped under the ring in a stage such as FD, but also allows you to attack your way out of the recovery if needed.

Marth: It's marth people. Excellent reach, a hit with the tip makes you feel really good especially since he ko's at like 75% with his f and up smash. Fairly hard to knock out. Marth users can become a bit predictable.

HIGH
Fox: Very good KO potential Up smash ko's at around 85%. Able to combo his smashes out of a short hop d air for an easy 35 %, Fast, Able to reflect. Can become very predictable as the d air is a widely known combo starter.

Lucario: Is sort of like a mix of the old Marth and mewtwo. Has priority over **** near everything with his a moves. Gets stronger while taking a beating. Very Floaty (advantage and disadvantage, kinda negates the use of short hopping with him) Able to Counter, Deceptively heavy.

MK: Okay reach, Has insanely quick moves, Very easy to combo with, B moves leave an opening after use reccomendation from me is to limit the use of these moves, Killing Potential is very bad his five moves that ko well for him ko at about 115% with the exception of the f smash which ko's at around 95% ( the 5 moves I found to have decent Ko potential for him are the glide slash up b, n air, f smash, and d smash) Easy to knock out

Pit: Reach is disappointnigly short for a blade wielder, can glide, Has a very good up b that can also turn on you (if he's hit while in the air with his up b he can't use it again until he hits the ground), Decent KO potential KO's at 90%,fairly hard to knock out to reflects.

PT: Decent reach on all of there smashes, Versatility good for keeping your opponents on there toes. Ivy and Squirtle have godly Up smashes that Ko at 75% possibly less (Ivysaur's is quite a bit stronger actually Koing at 65%), Charizard's Flamethrower and Rocksmash are great for racking up damage.

Luigi: REALLY INSANE KO potential Koes at about 60% with the up b,F smash is'nt soo bad either koing at around 95%. Also simple to combo with him.

Mid-High

Kirby: Excellent KO potential can KO at 85% can suck in people for an easy ko. Grab Combo for an easy 45% percent or so Down Grab up air down grab up air is how it goes I think I haven't tried it I've only had it used on me.Very easy to KO.

Bowser: KO's at 80% with his smashes. Heavy. Can Bowsercide on the last life killing the opponent first. easy to hit. Fairly decent reach.

Lucas: Great reac. Excellent Ko potential Kos at 65% with u smash but alot of lag after the move makes you an open target. Very easy to edgeguard with his up b. Not heavy=/

OK I'm too tired to keep going my fingers hurt and I got a party to get ready for

 

[Yuna-Maria]

^^^

That's one of the worst tier lists I've ever seen.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

wow.. did no one respond to my post >_>


<--- FAILURE

 

[Onxy]

My opinion

TOP
Snake: really good KO potential, many of his moves have a really good hitbox (i.e. his up a) can take a quite a beating. able to plant mines on a person. His recovery is good but is not to be used in a rush lest you get trapped under the ring in a stage such as FD, but also allows you to attack your way out of the recovery if needed.

Marth: It's marth people. Excellent reach, a hit with the tip makes you feel really good especially since he ko's at like 75% with his f and up smash. Fairly hard to knock out. Marth users can become a bit predictable.

HIGH
Fox: Very good KO potential Up smash ko's at around 85%. Able to combo his smashes out of a short hop d air for an easy 35 %, Fast, Able to reflect. Can become very predictable as the d air is a widely known combo starter.

Lucario: Is sort of like a mix of the old Marth and mewtwo. Has priority over **** near everything with his a moves. Gets stronger while taking a beating. Very Floaty (advantage and disadvantage, kinda negates the use of short hopping with him) Able to Counter, Deceptively heavy.

MK: Okay reach, Has insanely quick moves, Very easy to combo with, B moves leave an opening after use reccomendation from me is to limit the use of these moves, Killing Potential is very bad his five moves that ko well for him ko at about 115% with the exception of the f smash which ko's at around 95% ( the 5 moves I found to have decent Ko potential for him are the glide slash up b, n air, f smash, and d smash) Easy to knock out

Pit: Reach is disappointnigly short for a blade wielder, can glide, Has a very good up b that can also turn on you (if he's hit while in the air with his up b he can't use it again until he hits the ground), Decent KO potential KO's at 90%,fairly hard to knock out to reflects.

PT: Decent reach on all of there smashes, Versatility good for keeping your opponents on there toes. Ivy and Squirtle have godly Up smashes that Ko at 75% possibly less (Ivysaur's is quite a bit stronger actually Koing at 65%), Charizard's Flamethrower and Rocksmash are great for racking up damage.

Luigi: REALLY INSANE KO potential Koes at about 60% with the up b,F smash is'nt soo bad either koing at around 95%. Also simple to combo with him.

Mid-High

Kirby: Excellent KO potential can KO at 85% can suck in people for an easy ko. Grab Combo for an easy 45% percent or so Down Grab up air down grab up air is how it goes I think I haven't tried it I've only had it used on me.Very easy to KO.

Bowser: KO's at 80% with his smashes. Heavy. Can Bowsercide on the last life killing the opponent first. easy to hit. Fairly decent reach.

Lucas: Great reac. Excellent Ko potential Kos at 65% with u smash but alot of lag after the move makes you an open target. Very easy to edgeguard with his up b. Not heavy=/

OK I'm too tired to keep going my fingers hurt and I got a party to get ready for

That's kind of my ideal list - only 'cause PT is high. Too bad that ideal =/= reality

 

[Kaizo]

^^^

That's one of the worst tier lists I've ever seen.

I wouldn't have said anything if you didn't point it out, I didn't even notice that MK was nowhere to be found, and that Bowser was, like, sexy.

EDIT: ugh, I guess I don't read good =3

 

[TehBo49]

Tier list

Fox as the third best character in the game? lol

 

[Adapt]

wow.. did no one respond to my post >_>


<--- FAILURE

We should discuss Zamus's recovery. Theres no way you can say it is as bad as olimar's...

1 sec I'll find my post I made that that no one responded to the first time you posted your list

 

[Theftz22]

i was catching up and reading the last few pages and I am absolutely stunned that no one flamed bluebolt for being so stupid. I am also shocked by some of the pure, overall lack of intelligence in the last few pages.

 

[Kaizo]

i was catching up and reading the last few pages and I am absolutely stunned that no one flamed bluebolt for being so stupid. I am also shocked by some of the pure, overall lack of intelligence in the last few pages.

I thought I did, didn't I, like, teabag him or something?

 

[Adapt]

Found it: (some 700 replies back)

I hate it when ppl say that ZSS has a terrible recovery.
One of the best ways to tell a good ZSS from a bad one is how they recover. Most of the time, to gimp her you have to dodge 3 separate attacks. Even if you do gimp her theres a good chance you are going down too. Also, f-B can both attack and grab the ledge at the same time (not the easiest thing to do, but with practice you can space it right)
You can't even put hers in the same category as olimar's recovery

Sure it is gimpable, but so is any character's. (exceptions being rob, and the balloons off the top of my head) And many characters have a **** harder time making it back than she does

Also you can use up-B at the height of any normal or footstool jump to gain about 20% height. and her down-B has a footstool capability that will shoot you almost the entire length of FD. The footstool can be done off of attacks, items and projectiles.

Don't get me wrong I agree a good player can gimp it, but a good Zamus can make that **** hard to do

 

[fkacyan]

ZSS can downB hop to footstool, tether from huge ranges, and potentially kill you if you're on the edge with her upB.

Her tether also doesn't glitch.

90% of the time, she only gets gimped if the player does something stupid.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ tier list: It can't be said much better than this:

try playing more, reading the forums (including the first post of this, which will link you to some useful pages, and THEN try posting a tier list ^_^

 

[Judge Judy]

ZSS can downB hop to footstool, tether from huge ranges, and potentially kill you if you're on the edge with her upB.

Her tether also doesn't glitch.

90% of the time, she only gets gimped if the player does something stupid.

Mario still can reliably gimp her though.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Mario can reliable gimp EVERYONE >_>;

 

[fkacyan]

Mario still can reliably gimp her though.

I think you really underestimate the length of her tether. it's not as easy for FLUDDto gimp her as you seem to think.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Or at least he could in Melee. The cape isn't as omnipotent as it once was... plus a lot of characters can just float back on to the stage in Brawl. Not to mention characters with both tethers and upBs.

 

[Kaizo]

Mario still can reliably gimp her though.

ugh....

Welcome to smashboards. You're obviously new here, so before you get started.....

....yea, lulz

 

[ShadowLink84]

Mario can reliable gimp EVERYONE >_>;

okay
10char

 

[Judge Judy]

Mario can reliable gimp EVERYONE >_>;

Lol, so true. I only wish I could money shot, that'd be awesome.

 

[Dantarion]

ZSS definetely has a decent horizontal recovery, but when she is under the stage, and the enemy has a fraction of a second to prepare, she gets edge hogged. Sometimes you can force the enemy off with one up+b and then tether, but she still suffers from tetheritis, but not nearly as bad as ivy/olimar.

 

[Adapt]

I just watched a few ZSS-Mario matches online that I could find, ZSS doesn't get gimped once, but mario does.... (once or twice, not much). And it wasn't for lack of attempts either

Its not as easy as you seem to think

Yes it's true she doesn't have as many options from below the stage, but if there is a wall near by she can wall jump, and attempt a tether another 2 times. Yoshi's stage ftw!

and I'm still waiting for your response chozen

 

[DanGR]

Hey Adapt, why do you care if chozen likes the recovery one not? I main Olimar and I'll laugh my head off when he ends up in high tier and not highest b/c of a silly recovery flaw. Olimar won't worry people as much if he's in high and he'll own everyone b/c people think they can just "knock him off and it's a free kill." I do agree though. ZSS' recovery isn't that bad actually.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Cause Olimar really is hindered by being off stage.
Not to say he is helpless, that is grossly untrue, however when he is off the stage he will have some trouble.

 

[DanGR]

He'll have trouble if he has already used his double jump before he got launched off. If not, there shouldn't be any trouble at all. This is a very common misconception about Olimar. He's light too. Olimar is mostly going to die from getting hit off the screen, not off the stage. He can float horizontally more than most characters can. This helps him a lot to get back to the stage. His fair and upair have great priority so attacking isn't an issue either. Upb has insane priority so you can't really go out to attack him if you know he's gonna make it to the ledge before you do. It seems like everyone's opinion is that his recovery just sucks balls and if he's hit off, he's gonna die.(not true at all) I'd go as far to say that Sheik and Zelda have worser recoveries than Olimar does, not only Ivysaur.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not really. Zelda has distance to make up for it she really is only vulnerable if she nerfs it.

Link definitely has a bad recovery, he can't do as much as Olimar can.
Its kinda odd, wish he ahd his old recovery from melee.

 

[DanGR]

You can edgehog her recovery, and I guess she can place herself above the ledge, but that gets her hit again.

 

[Browny]

dangr, watch some tourney vids with pro olimar players. its pretty much guaranteed olimar wont recover at least once in a 3 stock match, and sometimes even 2-3 stocks are lost simply by being gimped.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Not really. Zelda has distance to make up for it she really is only vulnerable if she nerfs it.

Link definitely has a bad recovery, he can't do as much as Olimar can.
Its kinda odd, wish he ahd his old recovery from melee.

*cries*

Its like SS64 all over again... I miss Melee Link...

 

[DanGR]

dangr, watch some tourney vids with pro olimar players. its pretty much guaranteed olimar wont recover at least once in a 3 stock match, and sometimes even 2-3 stocks are lost simply by being gimped.

I'm not discrediting you, but could you direct me to some that you described if you don't mind? I don't see what you're saying happening very often.

 

[Deleted member]

Top-

Snake
Metaknight
Game and Watch
Falco
DDD

Each places consistently high.. basically this is how each's matchup chart would go just based on tourneys, and toon specific forums...

High-

Marth
Wolf
Zelda
Pit
Wario

At this point we get into alittle more obscure territory.. again we have more consistant placers.. but also varying character choices really bases upon which coast you're from.. Wario from the WC.. Pit from the EC. Marth has alot of KO potential.. but is gimped easily enough to not warrent top tier status... Wolf.. usually lower than Marth in tourney.. and Marth does better against Top Tiers... Zelda does VERY well against the lower tiers, but can struggle w/ some top tier matchups, and go even w/ others.

Upper-

R.O.B.
Pikachu
Toon Link
Mario
Fox

All solid characters but due to some VERY poor matchups w/ the tiers above them.. they do not make the cut for High/Top tier. Generally speaking all of these characters can also be played offensively/defensively, and are outstanding at comboing, but nothing any of these characters has, sets them out from the rest of the cast ahead of them...

Middle-

Ike
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Luigi

All of these toons characters are decent/good but can either be gayed, or easily stopped... it is MY belief that most of the mid tier characters are quite easily ***** by most of the top tier cast.. and much of the high tier.

Low-

Link
Donkey Kong
Ness
Peach
Samus

Less solid.. less consistent.. not as good at comboing.. nothing truely broken.. Link is an amazing spammer.. Ness has a nasty Spike/Fair.. Peach's Fair is quite amazing.. GrappleCancels are too good.. DK has the new WoP.... but all in all they just get HORRIBLY gayed by Top/High Tier toons.

Bottom-

Bowser
Kirby
Sheik
Lucas
Yoshi

Honestly this tier, and WTF tier are basically in any order you want... the above five belong where they're at... and the below crap belongs in the trash... quote me say whatever you would like... it doesn't matter.. tourney placings and matchups talk.. not how you "feel" a toon does against the world. That is a silly argument.. Throw out an MK/ROB against ANY of the characters out between bottom/wtf, and i'll see them NOT be gayed... yeah i doubt it >_>

Wtf I'm not even Kidding how dare you-

Olimar
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Sonic
ZSS
Ganondorf
Pokemon Trainer

I like the tier list, but ima make a few suggestions. Olimar's recovery may be horribly gimpable, but i honestly dont believe that makes him WTF tier. He has the best grab in the game, is a good camper, great priority, and is very good at not getting thrown off stage. I think if an olimar player can play it safe and use his pikmen, grabs, and smashes defensively, he should be able to take minimal damage. Id say move up to mid, because honestly, links recovery is just as bad.

I think sonic should move up to bottom tier as well. A great recovery, great edgeguarding on alot of the cast, good tech chaser, good tilts. HE suffers from lack of priority mainly and lack of range on many of his attacks, as well as killing problems, but he can get his kill through gimping often. I dont think hes wtf tier worthy, and tho hes certainly not very good, hes alot better than cfalcon.

Ive already said it, but Donkey Kong is way higher. He has the character abilities, and the tourny placings to allow him to be at least upper.

And thats pretty much it.

 

[Red Alloy]

You do have to consider how many Pikmin Olimar has when he's knocked off, though. It's one thing if he's got all six, but if he's only got 2 or 3, he's screwed. That's why everyone thinks his recovery is terrible. You can shorten it easily.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You can edgehog her recovery, and I guess she can place herself above the ledge, but that gets her hit again.

Yes but thats assuming she lost her double jump. Typically they don't go for the edge