Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[PIMPSLAP]

Based off of my tourney experience, and online practice, and maybe a bit of influences from this topic, heres what I think. Note that I could probably make more tiers, but it is obviously easier to have fewer tiers. I'm not exactly a scientist here. I have just played alot.
TOP:

Snake
Metaknight

HIGH:

Pikachu
Marth
Falco
Toon Link
R.O.B.
Game and Watch
Zelda
Wolf

MID:

King DeDeDe
Fox
Pit
Luigi
Wario
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Lucas
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Pokemon Trainer
Bowser

LOW:

Link
Mario
Peach
Kirby
Samus
Sheik
ZSS
Ike
Yoshi
Ness

BOTTOM:

Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Sonic
Captain Falcon
Lucario

DDD is the second from high tier

 

[ShadowLink84]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170943

Sonic vid forum
Watch the sonic vs CF ones.

the CF is by no means a noob.

 

[MysticKenji]

BOTTOM:
Lucario

...wut?

Seriously, WTF.

 

[Browny]

le sigh..

@ a2zomg, for about the 10th time in thie thread; (i cant believe i have to do this again)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hb4XIYmUHw
falco has to be one of the most difficult to approach characters in the game.

please take note of how sonics only approach (according to you, spin charge) gets out prioritised on every single approach, and exactly how many instances attacks collided and falco won


/sarcasm.

 

[hizzlum]

Holy Mcjebus, do you follow his posts in the Marth forum at all?

Link

What do I see here? ONE bad matchup, against SNAKE. The rest are even, which is how the top tiers should stack up. Why would it be bad if I hold even versus the best in the cast? No character has the advantage of countering the high end of the cast to a useful extend (save Falco versus Snake). In fact, he even has a positive matchup versus Game and Watch. That doesn't sound too shabby at all.

Second point about him thinking Marth is no lower than 5th. Most of his post relating to that are fairly old, bordering on 3-4 weeks, while he still posted regularly in this thread. His attitude is different as of late, as shown in this post:

Link

He says it right freakin' there. Marth is no worse than fifth. Heck, he even implies that Metaknight and Snake are the only two above him. He also admits that Marth isn't being played to his full potential yet. Finally, he says it quite plainly, Marth is top tier. You know how old THAT post is? About 1 week.

So please, STOP putting words in the poor man's mouth. He thinks Marth is better than most of the cast and is greatly underestimated.

Thats his match up in the marth forum, but if you see the chart that is constantly being updated in this link http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979 you'll see that marth is at a disadvantage against falco,ROB,snake and tied with other great characters like DDD,MK,TL and then olimar and diddy who are below his rank. This is proabably the most accurate brawl match-up chart to date, and emblem lord has posted in support of marth's match ups on this chart.
About his positioning in the "high": tier and him being fifth,i do not dount that he will be demoted from the Falco,G&W,ROB DDD group, but Falco has been put in the top tier in the japanese tier lists (more in the link http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161546) so his position in the highest part of the "high" tier in the SBR tier list seems proabable. Also DDD has been winning a lot tournies under snake and MK(http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954) so he will proabably be higher than marth in the tier list. Lastly G&W has better match-ups than marth against other top/high tier characters, as shown in the previous the chart, and he is rivaling marth for that fifth spot, so stating something like marth is 5th best is a little too bold to say with so many other characters that are great in brawl. Phanna is a good marth player who has been winnning tournies, but Ken has'nt and M2k swicth, and Azen plays as ike so as for a good marth, i think the pros are swicth to more hopeful characters who have been winning tournaments. I wish marth was guaranteed that fifth spot, but their are other characters that deserve it just as much a him if not more, and the japanese keep on rating him as 7th to 10th, and also, stay out of the marth forums for evidence to prove a point, you can't use a biased opinion and win an arguement, brawl tactical disscusion forums have a less corrupted view on all the characters and there is less bias.
I hope marth is 5th, but it is too early to say that and many people say otherwise

 

[Adapt]

I dunno how anyone can say CF>Sonic
Have you played any real matches with CF?? I played with CF in the previous 2 games, and the difference is noticeable. He's terrible

Lets break it down a bit:
nair: CF~Sonic - CF's is larger and has more priority, but its quite slow, and you never get to use both hits
bair: CF>Sonic - CF's is so much easier to hit with, and its less laggy. Sonic's has better knockback though
fair: CF<<Sonic - the knee's hitbox is so small, and its terribly difficult to sweetspot. Sonic's is a great gimp killer. also, dair to knee combo is airdodgeable
uair: CF<Sonic - sonic's has a really weird hitbox that extends beyond his feet. CF's covers more area, but it is weaker and less priority
dair: CF>Sonic - CF's spikes, doesn't have much lag on landing, and is good for setting up combos. Sonic's won't plummet you to your death cuz you can spring out of it, but it's still a stall'n'fall. both can auto-cancel

Overall Sonic's airgame is not much better than CF's I admit this much

approaching: CF<Sonic - sonic will punish any lag on your moves. ANY. He also has a pretty good grab game from dashing in. Sure falcon kick is probably better than any of Sonic's approaches, but thats one move, and terribly predictable unless done pretty close.
Also: The spin-shot is pretty sweet, I haven't seen it implemented in a match against me, but I understand it's potential

Spacing: CF<Sonic - speed ftw

 

[Snowstalker]

Based off of my tourney experience, and online practice, and maybe a bit of influences from this topic, heres what I think. Note that I could probably make more tiers, but it is obviously easier to have fewer tiers. I'm not exactly a scientist here. I have just played alot.


HIGH:

Zelda


MID:

King DeDeDe
Pit
Ice Climbers
Pokemon Trainer


LOW:

Yoshi
Ness

BOTTOM:

Lucario

All these characters are either too high or too low.

 

[penguinman]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170943

Sonic vid forum
Watch the sonic vs CF ones.

the CF is by no means a noob.

all i did was pick my favorite number (5) and saw a falcon that I have never heard of vs one of my favorite sonics and won. and even it sonic did win 6 vids proves nothing but the player.

 

[ShadowLink84]

all i did was pick my favorite number (5) and saw a falcon that I have never heard of vs one of my favorite sonics and won. and even it sonic did win 6 vids proves nothing but the player.

yeah cause chudat did not define the IC's metagame in melee/sarcasm

Or the fact that it PROVES everything that I have said about Sonic and his game.
No really it says nothing.
Clearly Lucky was not dominating CF.

For one you'll notice in 5 that Lucky started making major errors after he SD'ed, mistakes that he normally would not make. Before the SD he really was not screwing up.
The only reason CF won that was because Lucky started aking silly mistakes after his SD.
It was not due to CF being inherently better ot eh CF user being more skilled. Otherwise CF would have been dominating from the start rather than the other way around.

Look at number 6 you'll see none of the mistakes he made in that video being replicated and he wins by a good margin.

Look at the other videos including those of mr 3000 and IOZ and they confirm a good amount of what I have said earlier.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ penguinman's sig: About 80% of the intelligent discussion left a while ago. Sorry

@ Sonic vs. CF: Seriously, how can this even be debated? Captain Falcon, for all his manliness and undeniably shiny nipples, is not as good as Sonic. This is because Sonic's inability to get kills in the traditional fashion has lead to an entirely different type of play. Falcon players have yet to realize that their character must find a different play style, if he can at all.

 

[Grunt]

tiers are a joke, there i said it :o

-____________________________-

 

[ShadowLink84]

shiny nipples...



CF FOR TOP TIER!

 

[hizzlum]

shiny nipples...



CF FOR TOP TIER!

LOL.Classic...
All are in awe at his shiny,golden nipples. lol!

 

[Kiwikomix]

If CF is top for nipples, IC's are god tier for cleats.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Then Sonic is top for figure eight feet.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Mario, Luigi and Wario are bottom for tacky overalls. Talk about a fashion faux pas!
/gay

 

[ShadowLink84]

Oh and Marth? Bottom tier. Tiara's are overrated

 

[Kiwikomix]

Ahhhhh, I miss the good old days when I could increase my post count without sounding like a fairy

 

[ShadowLink84]

Me too man... me too.

OH **** MODS!


Anyways I really think Sonic is underrated, hell the posts from before show how lacking in knowledge people are about him.

 

[Grunt]

Snake doesn't get owned by campers. Only one that camps better than him is Olimar.

-________-
wow....

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

ChuDat+IC's=Your Argument is Proved Incorrect Sir.


No Johns.

Ok one exception, maybe two for Ken/Marth. I doubt anyone who consistently posts in this topic are near that calibur of skill

 

[Kiwikomix]

Sonic is underrated, sure, but he certainly shouldn't be overrated. I honestly don't think he can get higher than low mid.

But in response to the ChuDat thing, one good player really doesn't make a character good. The classic example is Gimpy and his Boozer. Also, ChuDat has a great Pikachu but that doesn't make him any higher, does it?

 

[ShadowLink84]

-________-
wow....

I've only really seen a Snake get outcamped by Olimar.
*shrug*

 

[gallax]

lucario is most definately not bottom tier...not even close. he has a counter, a bad *** projectile which can be shot out to stop attacks, a crazy edghogging ability which allows him to get back onto the stage and rack up a lot of damage, he can chain grab some characters, his upB is great for mindgames and recovering(not to mention his ability to wallgrab), his dair/nair are awesome, his ftilt/utilt is awesome to use, and his AAA is a good combo(racks up damage and stops attacks). falcon and sonic are faw less superior to lucario. he is at least a mid tier character. sure he can be knowcked out easily, but if you know how to DI and stay away from prioority attacks you can potentially get most of lucarios attacks to become high priority (after 150% his atacks increase in stregth dramatically). there is no way lucario is low tier. i think emblem lord and samurai panda would agree with me on this one.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I feel that Samus may be a bit underrated. Her attacks may lack priority and knock back, but she makes up for it in speed and range, also is decent at damage. Her charge shot, missiles, bombs, and Zair do give her decent camping although a lot of characters can cancel them out with a Ftilt or something similar, nevertheless they do control space. Her approach is decent since she can advance with missiles, Zair, and her aerials which all have no lag. Ground game is good since she has a lot of fast long ranged pokes such as jab, Ftilt, Dtilt, Utilt, Fsmash, and Dsmash but she can be out prioritized though. Air game is just as good as her ground game especially since all of her aerials cancel themselves out when they hit the ground. She doesn't have much in the way of edge guarding although she does have good recovery with bomb jumps, Zair, and UpB. Her only real weakness is a lack of priority and good KO moves. Thoughts? Also does anyone know what her match-ups look like?

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ galax: Lucario's upB does no damage and has a lot of windup lag. Therefore it is very gimpable. AAA is pretty much inescapable for EVERY character, not just Lucario. He'll also get killed a lot before 150%. Note: One list saying something certainly doesn't mean it's true.
Emblem Lord + SamuraiPanda =/= absolutely right, by the way. It sounds like you're just throwing out names. Then again, maybe I'm being a pompous ***hull.

@ Corner-Trap: Low priority and few KO moves are really bad for her, though. Those two things are exactly what kees Sonic from getting higher. Other problems for Samus include that she can't attack above her very effectively, and that, like you said, her projectiles are easily canceled. True, while someone's swiping away charge shots they can't attack Samus, but they can still approach.

 

[TehBo49]

BOTTOM:
Lucario

lol

10chars

 

[wavelucas]

The SF bunch, Marth, and ZSS look like top tier material to me. Powerful and quick.

I agree, but I think Lucas should be there as well

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Post

Okay, so long as your not throwing words in Emblem Lord's mouth, I'm fine.

But, I still think that Marth is top tier, above everyone except Metaknight and Snake, and thats still up for debate. And there are a few things about your logic I don't like:

1. Never use that match up chart for info... ever. For one, its mainly based on middle level players opinions, not the pros. This will make it fundamentally flawed. The only reliable data you can use for tier placing is the Tournament Results list, and even that has to be taken with a grain of salt because of how new the game is. In that data, only DDD, Metaknight and Snake are above Marth, and Marth isn't nearly as popular as any of those characters by professional, tournament winning players. Shouldn't that make you wonder about his overall strength?

2. Never use the Japanese metagame as evidence for our own. There metagame develops vastly different from our own. They play differently, think differently, and place certain character traits higher than our own. I know they love controlling character with chaingrabs and speed, thus why Sheik was so popular with them in Melee, and Falco likely is for them now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno how anyone can say CF>Sonic

Ask Inui. He says Sonic is clearly worse than Falcon and belongs in the bottom tier. He actually placed Falcon in the low tier last time he made a tier list. By the way, this is exactly what Inui told me about Falcon vs Sonic.

Falcon and Sonic play kinda teh saem, except Falcon lives longer, has more priority, has more KO power, and a few moves made of w1n while Sonic has nothing made of w1n.

Have you played any real matches with CF?? I played with CF in the previous 2 games, and the difference is noticeable. He's terrible

Falcon is godawful yeah. Sonic doesn't really have anything better than Falcon though.

fair: CF<<Sonic - the knee's hitbox is so small, and its terribly difficult to sweetspot. Sonic's is a great gimp killer. also, dair to knee combo is airdodgeable

D-air to Knee actually works in Brawl, so Falcon's F-air is automatically a lot better than Sonic's since this gives him a GOOD kill option.

uair: CF<Sonic - sonic's has a really weird hitbox that extends beyond his feet. CF's covers more area, but it is weaker and less priority

Nah, Falcon's U-air is better. The bigger hitbox is more important making it easier to land the attack. And it's really quite strong too. Plus it can semispike people to hell.

Overall Sonic's airgame is not much better than CF's I admit this much

Both have the crappiest air games in Brawl. CF is better in the air due to having more range and better combos.

approaching: CF<Sonic - sonic will punish any lag on your moves. ANY. He also has a pretty good grab game from dashing in. Sure falcon kick is probably better than any of Sonic's approaches, but thats one move, and terribly predictable unless done pretty close.
Also: The spin-shot is pretty sweet, I haven't seen it implemented in a match against me, but I understand it's potential

CF can approach with autocanceled D-airs too, the same way Ganondorf does, and it's safe on block and leads to crazy combos. Also both have fail grab range so whatever for that. Falcon's throws however are better than Sonic's. Also CF has a U-tilt made of win. Sonic doesn't have any tilts made of win.

Also, neither can punish the lag on any moves if the opponent does nothing, or camps with a projectile. Sonic isn't really significantly faster than Falcon anyway so both fail miserably at approaching anyway, but at least Falcon has some reliable techniques that win, whereas Sonic only has techniques that just hit the OK mark and will fail against proper anticipation.

Both are complete crap anyway.

 

[metalmonstar]

Also, neither can punish the lag on any moves if the opponent does nothing, or camps with a projectile. Sonic isn't really significantly faster than Falcon anyway so both fail miserably at approaching anyway, but at least Falcon has some reliable techniques that win, whereas Sonic only has techniques that just hit the OK mark and will fail against proper anticipation.

Both are complete crap anyway.

Both are pretty bad. I am not sure about Sonic being worse than captain Falcon.

Anyways I tested this and Sonic does have a noticeable speed advantage over Falcon. When I tested it sonic consistently leaves Falcon in the dust and when Falcon has a head start Sonic catches up. I don't have the numbers as I was only able to collect about 4 characters actually speed per block but maybe if I can get a hand on a Wii and smash bros I can sit down and record the two characters speeds. However it seemed obvious that Sonic has a noticeable speed advantage over Falcon.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

Wow things have just got interesting. Apparently C Falcon isn't the worst character in the game! I'm so excited!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Both are pretty bad. I am not sure about Sonic being worse than captain Falcon.

Anyways I tested this and Sonic does have a noticeable speed advantage over Falcon. When I tested it sonic consistently leaves Falcon in the dust and when Falcon has a head start Sonic catches up. I don't have the numbers as I was only able to collect about 4 characters actually speed per block but maybe if I can get a hand on a Wii and smash bros I can sit down and record the two characters speeds. However it seemed obvious that Sonic has a noticeable speed advantage over Falcon.

If Sonic could somehow pull of a Metaknight where you attack like three times a second all the time, he'd be significantly faster than Falcon. But that isn't the case.

Yeah Sonic runs faster, but not like it really matters. It's not like you really need to be 50 feet from someone just to stay away from an attack, and in fact at that range you will get projectile camped if your opponent uses projectiles. Besides, Falcon has more range than Sonic, so really the difference between how effectively they bait and punish isn't noticeable at all. What matters is who has a better moveset at that point, and that is Falcon who has better combos and KO power.

 

[metalmonstar]

If Sonic could somehow pull of a Metaknight where you attack like three times a second all the time, he'd be significantly faster than Falcon. But that isn't the case.

Yeah Sonic runs faster, but not like it really matters. It's not like you really need to be 50 feet from someone just to stay away from an attack, and in fact at that range you will get projectile camped if your opponent uses projectiles. Besides, Falcon has more range than Sonic, so really the difference between how effectively they bait and punish isn't noticeable at all. What matters is who has a better moveset at that point, and that is Falcon who has better combos and KO power.

Ah, I thought you meant running speed. Yeah both of them have pretty bad startup on their moves. I mean how do the the fastest characters have such bad startup lag.

I am curious what is Falcon's combo potential?

I always figured Sonic was the better character with his spindash, spring recovery, homing attack, bair, uair, and dash attack., but you do provide interesting points.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

le sigh..

@ a2zomg, for about the 10th time in thie thread; (i cant believe i have to do this again)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hb4XIYmUHw
falco has to be one of the most difficult to approach characters in the game.

please take note of how sonics only approach (according to you, spin charge) gets out prioritised on every single approach, and exactly how many instances attacks collided and falco won


/sarcasm.

ah sethlon that guy is so annoying to play lolz

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Wow things have just got interesting. Apparently C Falcon isn't the worst character in the game! I'm so excited!

of course he's not

he's freaking amazing lolz i'm not jocking i used him in friendlies changed my playing style from aggro to control mind games ahh it was bliss. Jabs are C falcons best weapons no jock!

 

[A2ZOMG]

I am curious what is Falcon's combo potential?

I always figured Sonic was the better character with his spindash, spring recovery, homing attack, bair, uair, and dash attack., but you do provide interesting points.

Surprisingly, the Falcon forums discovered you can still D-air to Knee in Brawl. You autocancel the D-air, and double jump if necessary, but it WILL raise the combo counter in training mode.

A sourspotted Knee also leads into real Up-B combos. Falcon's N-air also can lead into similar combos, although it's much harder to land. In fact, Falcon's Up-B I should state is VERY good in Brawl. It's a grab, has very good range, and good power. It's probably his best out of shield option, and it's likely better than any other option Sonic has out of shield.

As for Sonic's spindash, I'd say the Falcon kick is better since it has more priority, more speed, and does more damage. Both have decent enough B-airs and U-airs, although I'd say Falcon comes off better particularly with his U-air which has gigantic range, good knockback, and semispiking. Also both have rather lousy dash attacks, but they can be both used as quick options to hit someone with from a dash (Falcon's has a bit more power if I recall). I guess Sonic has the spring gimp, but that's it. Falcon lives longer than Sonic due to being heavier and actually having recovery that grabs the ledge.

Falcon's Smashes are also better than Sonic's. Neither will really land them often, but Falcon's have more range and more power without really having less speed in them (they both have really telegraphed smashes btw) so that's another win in KO power for him.

Last but not least, don't forget Falcon's U-tilt. A very good attack. It has existent priority, HUGE range, and very good KO power, and it's faster than his smashes.

 

[IrArby]

What matters is who has a better moveset at that point, and that is Falcon who has better combos and KO power.

I was told we weren't counting on combos to decide placement anymore! Lol

Marth R good

This thread is not for me

Brawl tier list will be the most controversial yet

Brawl R still gay so I leave it and this thread to the noobs.

Good Day SIR!

Don't bother flaming this since I've already unsubscribed to this thread and if you do your wrong and thats the bottom line. >

_________________________________________________________________________

get it? bottom line. Peace Bizzels

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ask Inui. He says Sonic is clearly worse than Falcon and belongs in the bottom tier. He actually placed Falcon in the low tier last time he made a tier list. By the way, this is exactly what Inui told me about Falcon vs Sonic.
Falcon is godawful yeah. Sonic doesn't really have anything better than Falcon though.

*sigh this argument is starting to go in circles. Do you really go ona nd ignore everything?

D-air to Knee actually works in Brawl, so Falcon's F-air is automatically a lot better than Sonic's since this gives him a GOOD kill option.

What?
With the fact its difficult to sweetspot?
Right.
Sonic has far moreoptions to combo and opponent and kill them than Falcon does nor are they as situational.
Again Sonic Fair>Falcon Fair.

Nah, Falcon's U-air is better. The bigger hitbox is more important making it easier to land the attack. And it's really quite strong too. Plus it can semispike people to hell.

I prefer Sonic's Uair. Sends them straight up and takes advantage of the floaty characteristics.
It also has better vertical range and priority.

Both have the crappiest air games in Brawl. CF is better in the air due to having more range and better combos.

Combos? WHAT combos?
Sonic has many combos branching off from his spindashes and many more setups to allow continous attacks and pressure.
Sonic's aerial air game is actually above par.

CF isn't better in the air. he has very few combos that he can set up. The air dodge system and lack of hitstun make it so he can't combo.
Sonic can combo much more easily and evne if he doesn't land a continous attack, it places the opponentin a position where he can attack them again.
When Falcon attempts this the opponent can counter more easily than when Sonic does it.
Do you just ignore parts of myposts.

CF can approach with autocanceled D-airs too, the same way Ganondorf does, and it's safe on block and leads to crazy combos.

Except Ganondorf has flamechoke making it much more easily done for him. There is also the fact that the hitstun for his Dair is more powerful and the hitstun takes longe rot cancel with an airdodge.
YEs falcon can combo but its not going to happen very often.

Also both have fail grab range so whatever for that. Falcon's throws however are better than Sonic's. Also CF has a U-tilt made of win. Sonic doesn't have any tilts made of win.

Ftilt?
U tilt?
Dtilt~>AAA/Grab/Utilt/usmash

His U tilts aren't the best but they have better usage than Falcon's.

Also, neither can punish the lag on any moves if the opponent does nothing, or camps with a projectile.

*facepalm*

Sonic isn't really significantly faster than Falcon anyway so both fail miserably at approaching anyway,

Sonic is much faster than Falcon. He is faster by a greater degree both aerially and on the ground.
Spindash spin charge am I typing to a wall?

but at least Falcon has some reliable techniques that win, whereas Sonic only has techniques that just hit the OK mark and will fail against proper anticipation.

Videos say otherwise.
ASC
SJC
spinshot
DAC
All of which are very successful for approaching an opponent.
Do you ignore my posts?

If Sonic could somehow pull of a Metaknight where you attack like three times a second all the time, he'd be significantly faster than Falcon. But that isn't the case.

He doesn't need to be faster though.
Ike and Bowser certainly are not and they are better.
Sonic's moves are mostly average with the Nair/Fair/Uair being among his quicker aerials with very little start up and cooldown time.
IN any case Sonic never places himself in a situation where moves would clash or where his opponent can outspeed his attacks.
Falcon cannot do such a thing as easily.

Yeah Sonic runs faster, but not like it really matters.

um yes it does. Look at the video I provided.
Sonic's running speed is a great factor in his chasing and spacing game.
More so IOZ since he plays more defensively.

It's not like you really need to be 50 feet from someone just to stay away from an attack, and in fact at that range you will get projectile camped if your opponent uses projectiles.

Sonic's spindashes all plow through projectiles.
Upon further testing he even went through Luigi's fireballs. (turns out my timing was off.
Sonic stays just outside the opponents range, he doesn't run far away.
Not to mention DAC
spinshot
SJC
if I list these techniques again and you ignore them I am going to be irked into just ignoring you.

Besides, Falcon has more range than Sonic

Range?
Sorry but Sonic can outdo Falcon's range wih his speed.
grab range is better.
Homing attack has great range.
Spindash and charge for approach.
DAC for approach.
His grab range is easily among the better ones due to the sliding that results from shield canceling his dash.

Falcon does have range to his moves thats true, ut no priority to take advantage of them.
is hurtbox takes up most of his body during an attack.
Sonic's takes up less.

, so really the difference between how effectively they bait and punish isn't noticeable at all.What matters is who has a better moveset at that point, and that is Falcon who has better combos and KO power.

Combos? Sonic
Chase game? Sonic by a significant amount.
Pressure game? Sonic again by a significant amount
KO power? Falcon but Sonic makes up for it with his damage racking combos. All his spindash/charge combos can do up to 25% damage. This is not taking into account how quickly he chases his opponents down and continues to punish and pressure.
sonic can make up for KO ability.
As I mentioned look at the videos.


The main reason people get the idea that Sonic can do so few things is that he has a very high learning curve. It takes a lot longer time to implement Sonic's abilities properly and a longe rtime to master them to their maximum effectiveness.
Even then you still have Sonic's differentiating in the way they play Sonic.

Some are ground offensive (lucky)
Some play defense games. (IOZ)
Some incorporate a mix of both (mysef and Tenki0
and then there are the different ways those styles are used some of which relying on aerial or ground game, or grab and spacing etc etc.

I think Sonic is mid tier, if not for his moveset but for the the many options that he has available to him. Something that many characters in this game are lacking.

If you compare some of the agreed mid tier characters such as Bowser or Ike or Lucas and Ness, you'll find the methods in which they can be played during a situation are more limited than Sonic's.

HmmI wish we could ahve more mains under our names. (wants to put Ike,Falco and Link)

A sourspotted Knee also leads into real Up-B combos. Falcon's N-air also can lead into similar combos, although it's much harder to land. In fact, Falcon's Up-B I should state is VERY good in Brawl. It's a grab, has very good range, and good power. It's probably his best out of shield option, and it's likely better than any other option Sonic has out of shield.

So basically its a shield grab. -_-;

As for Sonic's spindash, I'd say the Falcon kick is better since it has more priority, more speed, and does more damage.

Priority wise? no.
more speed? No they both take a similar amount of time to start up.
Damage wise? yes.
Combo ability? None

Both have decent enough B-airs and U-airs, although I'd say Falcon comes off better particularly with his U-air which has gigantic range, good knockback, and semispiking.

Sonic's has greater knock back and can be comboed into itself like Falcon's Nair. It also has greater vertical range. It falls down to preference.

Also both have rather lousy dash attacks, but they can be both used as quick options to hit someone with from a dash (Falcon's has a bit more power if I recall). I guess Sonic has the spring gimp, but that's it.

And Fair/Bair/Nair/semespike Dair. Do you not know anything about Sonic's edge guarding game?

Falcon lives longer than Sonic due to being heavier and actually having recovery that grabs the ledge.

I can't believe you just mentioned recovery. Sonic will never need to grab the ledge and it actually does grab the ledge. It doesn't automatically sweetspot it is what you mean.

Falcon's Smashes are also better than Sonic's.

Fsmash is telegraphed more than Sonic's and stays out longer. How is it better?
Because it has more power?

Dsmash is probably better but I think it has less range and stays out a little lesser than Sonic's.
Sonic Usmash has more startup time but a disjointed hitbox that makes up for it and the fact he can DAC mean he should rarely get hit after using a U smash.

Neither will really land them often,

mr. 3000 video says otherwise.

but Falcon's have more range and more power without really having less speed in them (they both have really telegraphed smashes btw) so that's another win in KO power for him.

Falcon's Fsmash is telegraphed more and stays out longer.
Dsmash is faster but covers less range.
Usmash is faster with similar cooldown time but Sonic can e his with DAC more effectively and with far greater priority than Falcon's.
Don't know why you keep ignoring this.

Last but not least, don't forget Falcon's U-tilt. A very good attack. It has existent priority, HUGE range, and very good KO power, and it's faster than his smashes.

Is that it?
Sonic's U tilt does have priority, speed but lesser range.
I also don't beleive the U tilt can KO until higher percentages since DI and double jumping can lead to you escapng a potentially lethal move.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Ah, I thought you meant running speed. Yeah both of them have pretty bad startup on their moves. I mean how do the the fastest characters have such bad startup lag.

Sonic's startup lag isn't that bad. His fair, nair, and uair all come out really quick, and for ground moves he's got his d-tilt, f-tilt, and jab.

I am curious what is Falcon's combo potential?

It's mostly uair chains. Sonic's combos mostly involve either side B, down B, uair, or fair chains (not exactly chains, but few characters can attack you out of it).

As for Sonic's spindash, I'd say the Falcon kick is better since it has more priority, more speed, and does more damage.

Sonic's spin dash is far better. It's jump cancelable which makes it infinitely safer, it combos into his aerial attacks, it travels faster, and it travels very low (making it hard to interupt with aerials). His spin charge is even better, having insane priority on the initial hop, which allows it to beat other attacks. I spincharged straight though a falcon punch before. Not to mention it can also be shield canceled before launched, and jump canceled at any time. Falcon Kick pales in comparison.

Both have decent enough B-airs and U-airs, although I'd say Falcon comes off better particularly with his U-air which has gigantic range, good knockback, and semispiking.

I agree that Falcon's uair is overall better, but Sonic's uair is definately no pushover. It has insane vertical range (disjointed, might I add), along with low startup lag, low landing lag, low ending lag, and decent horizontal range as well. Add in that his up B sets up perfectly for more uairs and it becomes quite a good move for him.

Sonic's bair also has more range and less ending lag, btw.

Also both have rather lousy dash attacks, but they can be both used as quick options to hit someone with from a dash (Falcon's has a bit more power if I recall).

Sonic's dash attack leaves him relatively safe simply because of how far he goes when he attacks. A well spaced dash attack is very hard to punish. It's still not that great, but it's certainly better than Falcon's.

I guess Sonic has the spring gimp, but that's it. Falcon lives longer than Sonic due to being heavier and actually having recovery that grabs the ledge.

Falcon certainly does not live longer than Sonic! Falcon's recovery is rediculously easy to edgeguard in comparison. Sonic's up B gives him invincibility frames on startup, leaves a projectile beneath him for a little more protection, allows him to attack and airdodge after it, and even lets him wall jump and footstool jump afterwards. Don't forget about his homming attack going rediculously far, and his spinshotting being very fast and traveling very far. Sonic has arguably one of the top 10 best recoveries in the game.

And Sonic's edgeguarding is much more than Spring gimps. Due to that incredible up B recovery, along with spindashing having a lot of momentum even in the air, Sonic can go extemely far out to edgeguard. He can also hit low recoveries with his Dair, which semispikes during the first half of it, and is completely safe thanks to jumping stopping all of it's momentum. He can edgeguard you with his fair, bair, nair, dair, and homming attack, in addition to spring gimps.

Sonic's f-smash has a lot of disjointed range and can be double stutterstepped for even more range. It also has much less ending lag and is much safer to do.

Sonic's up smash has a lot of priority and tears through attacks, making it a decent anti air option.

Sonic's downsmash passes through mulitple times, allowing it to hit through spotdodges (though the last few hits are pretty weak). The fact that he moves also lets him dodge attacks while doing the smash. Though I'd say it's still not as good due to the longer ending lag, making it slightly less safe.