Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Smooth Criminal]

tiers are a joke, there i said it :o

NO UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!

But...seriously.

---------------------------------> Exit is thataway.

Smooth Criminal

 

[hizzlum]

Please, stop putting words in both Emblem Lord's, and many other Marth users mouths. If you actually played attention to him, he says Marth is the 5th best character, AT WORST. He would most firmly place Marth right under Metaknight right now, I think. I know from discussion with him that he doesn't feel that Marth overcoming the top tier is farfetched either, especially with all the interesting and diverse things we are learning to do with his moveset. Essentially, to say that the intelligent and experienced part of the Marth community universally agrees that he's the 5th best is a heavy claim with little support to it, especially when the leader of those boards disagrees himself. >.>

Emblem Lord has stated marth at the bottom of the G&W, Falco, ROB,DDD group many times over and believes that G&W,Falco and DDD are better candidates for third, goes back a few pages and you'll see on this thread. And to make such a big claim about marth's placing in a tier list as 5th best is ignorant, marth fayboism is not going to move him higher on tier lists. the groupings of characters have been made and sort of agreed on by the posters in this thread, but the placement in the tiers is up for ggrabs as tournaments go on(marth gets top 8 in tourneys, he wins only a few compared to SNake MK,DDD), also marth has equal if not bad match-ups against the other "top and high" tier characters in the game, which emblem lord has acknowledged. And some who is not biased towards marth(i.e. NOT THE MARTH COMMUNITY ON SMASHBOARDS) should make the assumption of a character's placing not some people who think he is the greatest character in the game who they main.
If you're going to put up an arguement about marth's placing, you shouldn't be a marth main unless you're m2k, emblem lord or Ken(who all agree that he isNEVER GOING TO BE THE BEST and believe he will be in the bottom of the "high" tier group) because you'll be biased,which is normal, and put him higher in placing than he actually should be.
If you're going to argue about marth's placing, dont let biased fanboys who main him/her, be your evidence
(coming from a marth main ,and always will be, since NOV. 2001)

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hmm I always thought that Marth would be maybe in the middle of the high tier.
Can you explain to me why?

 

[Corner-Trap]

Now say that this is the actual mid tier, please tell me how you would arrange it. Please don't make statements saying that "insert character here" deserves to be in high, low, or whatever other tier placement. Just arrange the characters as is, it would be a lot of help.

Mid:
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Wario
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Diddy Kong
Fox
Ike
Luigi
Zelda
Olimar
Sheik
Kirby
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle

 

[Sh1n0b1]

Ike is bottom of mid tier.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I would put Diddy above:
Ness
Lucario
sheik
Olimar
Zelda
Ike
Lucas
Zero Suit Samus
Wario
Donkey Kong
Kirby
He has a tough time against:
Squirtle
Fox
Pit
Luigi
and goes even with
Ice Climbers

 

[da K.I.D.]

are you guys continuing to say that even tho mr 3000 is winning tourneys that sonic isnt mid tier?

if that is the case he is going to be a huge sleeper hit, and is going to be surprising a lot of ppl

 

[Corner-Trap]

Thanks for the two responses but I was looking more for people to organize it themselves. Not simply telling me where a single character should go or what the match-ups are like, no offense though.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

are you guys continuing to say that even tho mr 3000 is winning tourneys that sonic isnt mid tier?

if that is the case he is going to be a huge sleeper hit, and is going to be surprising a lot of ppl

even if someone can win with a character in a tournament doesn't mean that the character is automatically high tier or top tier. It just means that the person using that character has a lot of experience with that specific character and has grown to be very good with that character, not that the character is good...

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Your post

Holy Mcjebus, do you follow his posts in the Marth forum at all?

Link

What do I see here? ONE bad matchup, against SNAKE. The rest are even, which is how the top tiers should stack up. Why would it be bad if I hold even versus the best in the cast? No character has the advantage of countering the high end of the cast to a useful extend (save Falco versus Snake). In fact, he even has a positive matchup versus Game and Watch. That doesn't sound too shabby at all.

Second point about him thinking Marth is no lower than 5th. Most of his post relating to that are fairly old, bordering on 3-4 weeks, while he still posted regularly in this thread. His attitude is different as of late, as shown in this post:

Link

He says it right freakin' there. Marth is no worse than fifth. Heck, he even implies that Metaknight and Snake are the only two above him. He also admits that Marth isn't being played to his full potential yet. Finally, he says it quite plainly, Marth is top tier. You know how old THAT post is? About 1 week.

So please, STOP putting words in the poor man's mouth. He thinks Marth is better than most of the cast and is greatly underestimated.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

you really hate that hizzlum guy, don't you. I mean he is annoying, and he agrees with everything Emblem Lord says...

 

[Blad01]

even if someone can win with a character in a tournament doesn't mean that the character is automatically high tier or top tier. It just means that the person using that character has a lot of experience with that specific character and has grown to be very good with that character, not that the character is good...

However (and even if i think that's dumb), a tier list is also based on tournaments results...

[EDIT: And thanks Redfish, and you Ike is solid, i feel like i'm recognized now ]

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

do you think sonic should be top tier?



(and you are welcome for recognizing you).

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic? Top tier?
HA!

Sonic is a mid tier character for sure.
Great number of approaches.
Good chasing
good pressure.
Many physics exploits to enhance his speed in the air.
Good edge guarding and gimping game.

Very low priority.
Very high learning curve
Few kill moves.

 

[DanGR]

Now say that this is the actual mid tier, please tell me how you would arrange it. Please don't make statements saying that "insert character here" deserves to be in high, low, or whatever other tier placement. Just arrange the characters as is, it would be a lot of help.

sorry if this post wasn't directed to everyone, but I want to mess around with it. Using the characters you listed,(keep in mind) I made my ideal mid tier

Mid-
DDD
Diddy Kong
IC
Wario
Olimar
Lucario
Pit
Zelda
Fox
Kirby
DK
Zamus
Squirtle
Ike
Luigi
Ness
Sheik
Lucas

 

[ShadowLink84]

Lack of sonic makes me sad dan.

*hits you randomly*

I THOUGHT YOU UNDERSTOOD ME!
*runs off* >_>

Well Sonic has more positive and even matchups than Captain Falcon, Ganon, Jiggs, Ivysaur, basically most of the people that are near the bottom. I don't think he should be any higher than maybe middle of low tier but he certainly isn't the worst character in the game. He has low priority but he also has a great gimping game, he has a decent recovery, and he can deal with campers a lot better than someone like Ganondorf for example. He's not the best character out there, but he certainly doesn't deserve the "worst character" title.

I don't think he is low tier candidate. For one many of the low tier characters he does very well against them and his disadvantages only occur with mid tier characters that are on the higher end. He doesn't have many hard counters, only 2 (Luigi and MK) with the other disadvantages being soft ones. (don't know why people consider him at a disadvantage with Ike but meh whatever).

He can deal with campers alot better than the majority of the cast. Not many characters can approach as quickly as effectively nor edge guard or pressure or chase as well. Not many characters can pressure and chase a character they just smashed across the screen.

THe low priority is an issue but it really only starts sticking out against characters like Luigi and MK whose hitboxes cover a great proportion, basically in which they have little hitbox.
I think he is mid tier mainly since he does better than the low tier characters.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well Sonic has more positive and even matchups than Captain Falcon, Ganon, Jiggs, Ivysaur, basically most of the people that are near the bottom. I don't think he should be any higher than maybe middle of low tier but he certainly isn't the worst character in the game. He has low priority but he also has a great gimping game, he has a decent recovery, and he can deal with campers a lot better than someone like Ganondorf for example. He's not the best character out there, but he certainly doesn't deserve the "worst character" title.

Olimar should be higher up, maybe placed into the Top of the B class or the bottom of the A class. He has too much range, strength, and projectile spam to be considered that low. Yes, his recovery is far from stellar, and he has his shortcomings, but he should be higher than people like Mario.

You are missing some people in your list, like Falco and ZSS and I think 1 other person.

I'll fix my list to include those guys. Sry. I think the other guys I forgot are Diddy and DK.

S- Metaknight, Snake, G&W
A- Falco, Marth, Toon Link, DDD, ICs, Pikachu, R.O.B.
B- Diddy, Zelda, ZSS, Sheik, Fox, Wario, Pit, Kirby, Lucario, Squirtle, DK
C- Charizard, Luigi, Mario, Bowser, Ness, Lucas, Wolf, Olimar
D- Link, Ike, Peach, Samus, Yoshi, Jigglypuff
E- Ganondorf, Ivysaur, Captain Falcon, Sonic

What matchups does Sonic have that are better than Falcon's? And why?

Anyone that can projectile spam on the ground will stop Sonic in his tracks, so whatever. Except for maybe Zelda since Din's Fire is weird.*shrug*

I honestly don't see how Sonic is better at gimping than Falcon anyway. Falcon can still U-air spike, and his D-air is a better spike than what little Sonic has. Supposedly you can spring ledgeguard with Sonic, which is rather weak if I recall, but eh.

I would have said Falcon was the worst, except after Inui pointed out how Sonic really doesn't have any of the power Falcon has so ultimately Falcon gets to kill a bit earlier. Some logic huh lololol.

Ganondorf's weakness is camping yeah, but at least he has range, some priority, and some GOOD combos and kill moves.

Olimar is a really confusing character to place on tiers I'll say. I mean he has good points like his good priority and hax grab, but he's very easily killed since he's lightweight and has the 2nd worst recovery in the game. Honestly I don't think his projectile spam is really a strong point though. Like Fox's lasers, they don't stun for the most part. Honestly I thought Mario was overall better on the premise he has better camping and ledgeguarding, and isn't really that gimpable. But really I dunno where to place Olimar at all. *shrug*

It's not like the C-tier is bad anyway. That's the lower mid tier, which IMO isn't all that far from the B-tier, but the B-tier seems to be doing better in tourneys.

I'm itching to move guys like DK, Ike, and Link to the C-tier, if anything right now.

 

[SheikSmasher]

like the b rank =D

 

[ShadowLink84]

What matchups does Sonic have that are better than Falcon's? And why?

Go to the matchup thread please.
I am not going to list them all its too tiring.
Keep in mind the amtchup list is slightly inaccurate and he should be neutral/advantageous against DK,samus,Pit
He has only two hard counters (MK and Luigi) with the others being soft counters.

Anyone that can projectile spam on the ground will stop Sonic in his tracks, so whatever. Except for maybe Zelda since Din's Fire is weird.*shrug*

This statement reeks of lack of knowledge.
Sonic smashes through nearly every single projectiles except for Luigi's fireballs.

I honestly don't see how Sonic is better at gimping than Falcon anyway. Falcon can still U-air spike, and his D-air is a better spike than what little Sonic has. Supposedly you can spring ledgeguard with Sonic, which is rather weak if I recall, but eh.

Again lack of knowledge.
bair, Fair, Uair for early kills.
Dair semispike
Nair. Spring ledge guard is actually effective due to the hitstun not because its weak.

I would have said Falcon was the worst, except after Inui pointed out how Sonic really doesn't have any of the power Falcon has so ultimately Falcon gets to kill a bit earlier. Some logic huh lololol.

yeah cause MK totally has alot of power /sarcasm

Ganondorf's weakness is camping yeah, but at least he has range, some priority, and some GOOD combos and kill moves.

Sonic has several good combos. Killing isn't an isue.
Sonic can chase, pressure, gimp, insane recovery. Three moves with disjointed hitboxes/dodge frames.
A crazy approach game.
How is he the worst character?

Olimar is a really confusing character to place on tiers I'll say. I mean he has good points like his good priority and hax grab, but he's very easily killed since he's lightweight and has the 2nd worst recovery in the game. Honestly I don't think his projectile spam is really a strong point though. Like Fox's lasers, they don't stun for the most part. Honestly I thought Mario was overall better on the premise he has better camping and ledgeguarding, and isn't really that gimpable. But really I dunno where to place Olimar at all. *shrug*

Olimar's pikmin throw=massive amounts of damage.
They basically force you to stop and attack to get the pikmin off.
His ground game trumps even sSnake's camping game.
Thats quite a good thing.
his major weakness is that if someone gets up close he can have some issues and his recovery is horrible.

you seem like you know very little about these characters yet feel ready to confine them towards the lower areas.

 

[St. Viers]

m olimar's d-smash is iirc fast enough to get people off you if they are close up ^_^

 

[SaxDude93]

This statement reeks of lack of knowledge.
Sonic smashes through nearly every single projectiles except for Luigi's fireballs.-Really?! Sonic goes through the NIKITA, Waddle Dees/Doos/Gordos, laser spam, arrow spam, paralyzer, Pk Fire, etc. Hmm...

Again lack of knowledge.
bair, Fair, Uair for early kills.
Dair semispike-It's a stall-and-fall. Massive suicide potential, and not in a good way
Nair. Spring ledge guard is actually effective due to the hitstun not because its weak.

yeah cause MK totally has alot of power /sarcasm

Sonic has several good combos. Killing isn't an isue. Yes, it is.
Sonic can chase, pressure, gimp, insane recovery. Three moves with disjointed hitboxes/dodge frames.-Doesn't mean **** if other moves go through them because of higher priority. And how does Sonic pressure. Oh, snaps, it's another Spindash.
A crazy approach game. What...? Spindashing
How is he the worst character?

Comments in bold

 

[ShadowLink84]

I really do wish people would just multiquote. Makes it much easier to just hit the quote button. -_-;

Really?! Sonic goes through the NIKITA, Waddle Dees/Doos/Gordos, laser spam, arrow spam, paralyzer, Pk Fire, etc. Hmm...

Yes.
He smashes through all of them with his over B and down B.
Not sure about gordo though since I've rarely encountered one, probably it would knock Sonic out of it since it has alot more priority than any other projectile in the game.
Again as I said you are largely ignorant of what Sonic can ot cannot do.

It's a stall-and-fall. Massive suicide potential, and not in a good way

it can be canceled.
Your argument falls flat on its face again.

Yes, it is.

Everything else says otherwise. Again MK has little killing ability.
Damage caused circumvents the killing necessity.
not to mention he can use the Uair in a good number of ways.
Again argument falls on its face.

Doesn't mean **** if other moves go through them because of higher priority. And how does Sonic pressure. Oh, snaps, it's another Spindash.

DAC, spinshot, SJC, Fair, Bair, Nair, Uair, he has a massive amount of approach and chase ability.
NOt to mention his incredible ground speed alone lets him keep up with characters he has just knocked across the screen. Can you name anyone else capable of doing such a thing?
I thought not.

Seriously I am surprised you are even making any comments since you obviously have NO knowledge of Sonic's gameplay.

I would love to give you an entire lecture on Sonic but I find pointing to the sonic forums is more than enough.
Go there. You'll learn something.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Go to the matchup thread please.
I am not going to list them all its too tiring.
Keep in mind the amtchup list is slightly inaccurate and he should be neutral/advantageous against DK,samus,Pit
He has only two hard counters (MK and Luigi) with the others being soft counters.

I don't trust the matchup thread really. Honestly I don't see anymore why Sonic's matchups are better than Falcon's.

Again lack of knowledge.
bair, Fair, Uair for early kills.
Dair semispike
Nair. Spring ledge guard is actually effective due to the hitstun not because its weak.

B-air is okay, but Falcon's is better. F-air isn't good for killing, Falcon's is situational but good for killing. U-air is so-so, but Falcon's is better. D-air is telegraphed for both Falcon and Sonic, but Falcon's actually can meteor effectively. N-air has a bad hitbox for both chars, but Falcon's has range. Also Falcon's Up-B >>> Sonic's as both an attack and for ledgeguarding.

yeah cause MK totally has alot of power /sarcasm

He does, actually. His Up-B and D-smash are two of the BEST kill moves in the entire game, and he has no trouble with diminishing returns because nearly all of his attacks are spammable. Metaknight is a lot stronger than he should be.

Sonic has several good combos. Killing isn't an isue.

Orly?

Sonic can chase, pressure, gimp, insane recovery. Three moves with disjointed hitboxes/dodge frames.

His recovery is NOT insane. It gets good distance, but he cannot autograb the ledge, and his air game doesn't have enough advantages to make up for that. He can techchase yeah, but that's really it unless he's going against Zelda (who doesn't like people in her face) since his priority is the worst in the game.

A crazy approach game.

He's worse than Falcon at approaching. That's a statement. I'll explain why if you need me to, but basically it's because Falcon actually has a few attacks with priority that can be used to approach effectively.

How is he the worst character?

Because Falcon, the other worst character does everything better than him. I can tell you why the other E-tier characters are better than Falcon too.

Olimar's pikmin throw=massive amounts of damage.
They basically force you to stop and attack to get the pikmin off.

That is only if you are dumb. What you're supposed to do is avoid Olimar's Purple Pikmin, his grab, and then hit him off of the stage if he's throwing Pikmin at you.

His ground game trumps even sSnake's camping game.

Hur, I guess. Snake is horrible at dealing with campers due to being extremely limited at approaching. So yeah Olimar doesn't do too badly against him.

you seem like you know very little about these characters yet feel ready to confine them towards the lower areas.

Hey I beg to differ.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

lolz captain Falcon is 100 million times better than sonic

 

[A2ZOMG]

lolz captain Falcon is 100 million times better than sonic

I'm a nub, was that in agreement with me?

EDIT: Dang, I'm too active on SWF. Over 1000 posts. I dun think I rly deserve to be a Smash Lord yet. <<

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't trust the matchup thread really. Honestly I don't see anymore why Sonic's matchups are better than Falcon's.

I do admit the matchup list is inaccurate but it has far more accurate than it was in the past. It also provides a good reason based sheerly on the amount of advantages to disadvantages.

B-air is okay, but Falcon's is better.

]
Sonic's Bair outprioritizes Falcon's Bair

F-air isn't good for killing,

Excellent combo/edge guarding tool and can kill off the stage at lower percentages.

Falcon's is situational but good for killing.

his Fair is crap.

U-air is so-so, but Falcon's is better.

Sonic's Uair has better range and knock back and can kill medium weight characters at 90 to 100%.

D-air is telegraphed for both Falcon and Sonic, but Falcon's actually can meteor effectively

Sonic can semispike and be canceled. It also has good priority.

, N-air has a bad hitbox for both chars, but Falcon's has range.

Except Falcon's has NO priority and is useless. Sonic's comes out just as fast, has more knock back and more priority.

He does, actually. His Up-B and D-smash are two of the BEST kill moves in the entire game, and he has no trouble with diminishing returns because nearly all of his attacks are spammable. Metaknight is a lot stronger than he should be.

I disagree about them being the best two kills, I think Snake, Olimar and a few others kill better.
For one ^B is situational and it can be difficult to set up against an opponent.
Dsmash is fast but again it will be expected so many stay out of range.
The main reason his moves are spammable is because they are fast AND they have massive priority. Sonic can spam his Fair and Bair but the issue with priority means they aren't spammable.
For example Marth can spam his Fair because of the range, speed and priority.
While Sonic certainly can get in range and the speed of his aerials is quick, he has no priority so spamming them is an issue.

Orly?
His recovery is NOT insane. It gets good distance, but he cannot autograb the ledge, and his air game doesn't have enough advantages to make up for that.

Fair and Bair increase the horizontal distance and you clearl yignored pinshotting to ^B post.
Not only that the ^B has dodge frames so hitting him during an ^B is near impossible.
Homing attack further increases his recovery.

He can techchase yeah, but that's really it unless he's going against Zelda since his priority is the worst in the game.

He can techchase everyone in the game and can chase them while they are flying through the game.

He's worse than Falcon at approaching. That's a statement.
Because Falcon, the other worst character does everything better than him.

This statement was so stupid I cannot bother responding to it.
Sonic is KNOWN for approaching.'
Try to camp a Sonic while you are Pit and tell me how it works out for you please.

That is only if you are dumb. What you're supposed to do is avoid Olimar's Purple Pikmin, his grab, and then hit him off of the stage if he's throwing Pikmin at you.
Hur, I guess. Snake is horrible at dealing with campers.

Snake is actually a pro at dealing with campers. He literally forces them to stop camping.
You go to avoid the purple pikin, you get grabbed.
Do you know how insanely difficult it is to get close to olimar?
Yeah he sucks off the ledge but thats as easy as trying to fight MK head to head in the air.
Yeah you can do it but unless you are a certain character you are going to have a very hard time getting close to Olimar.

Hey I beg to differ.

I would honestly ask to face your Falcon against my Sonic but sadly I have no wifi until sometime next weekend. Seriously how the hell is Sonic incapable at approaching?
THat's like saying Ike;s moves cannot kill.
you obviously have NO knowledge about Sonic if you are saying he cannot approach.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

I do admit the matchup list is inaccurate but it has far more accurate than it was in the past. It also provides a good reason based sheerly on the amount of advantages to disadvantages.
]
Sonic's Bair outprioritizes Falcon's Bair

Excellent combo/edge guarding tool and can kill off the stage at lower percentages.


his Fair is crap.

Sonic's Uair has better range and knock back and can kill medium weight characters at 90 to 100%.

Sonic can semispike and be canceled. It also has good priority.

Except Falcon's has NO priority and is useless. Sonic's comes out just as fast, has more knock back and more priority.


I disagree about them being the best two kills, I think Snake, Olimar and a few others kill better.
For one ^B is situational and it can be difficult to set up against an opponent.
Dsmash is fast but again it will be expected so many stay out of range.
The main reason his moves are spammable is because they are fast AND they have massive priority. Sonic can spam his Fair and Bair but the issue with priority means they aren't spammable.
For example Marth can spam his Fair because of the range, speed and priority.
While Sonic certainly can get in range and the speed of his aerials is quick, he has no priority so spamming them is an issue.


Fair and Bair increase the horizontal distance and you clearl yignored pinshotting to ^B post.
Not only that the ^B has dodge frames so hitting him during an ^B is near impossible.
Homing attack further increases his recovery.
He can techchase everyone in the game and can chase them while they are flying through the game.

This statement was so stupid I cannot bother responding to it.
Sonic is KNOWN for approaching.'
Try to camp a Sonic while you are Pit and tell me how it works out for you please.


Snake is actually a pro at dealing with campers. He literally forces them to stop camping.
You go to avoid the purple pikin, you get grabbed.
Do you know how insanely difficult it is to get close to olimar?
Yeah he sucks off the ledge but thats as easy as trying to fight MK head to head in the air.
Yeah you can do it but unless you are a certain character you are going to have a very hard time getting close to Olimar.



I would honestly ask to face your Falcon against my Sonic but sadly I have no wifi until sometime next weekend. Seriously how the hell is Sonic incapable at approaching?
THat's like saying Ike;s moves cannot kill.
you obviously have NO knowledge about Sonic if you are saying he cannot approach.

YOU STOP playing online proves nothing at ALL!!!! there sonic is good you can't powersheild and abuse his slow start up play in real life and the amazing difference

 

[SaxDude93]

I really do wish people would just multiquote. Makes it much easier to just hit the quote button. -_-;


Yes.
He smashes through all of them with his over B and down B.
Not sure about gordo though since I've rarely encountered one, probably it would knock Sonic out of it since it has alot more priority than any other projectile in the game.
Again as I said you are largely ignorant of what Sonic can ot cannot do.


it can be canceled.
Your argument falls flat on its face again.

Everything else says otherwise. Again MK has little killing ability.
Damage caused circumvents the killing necessity.
not to mention he can use the Uair in a good number of ways.
Again argument falls on its face.



DAC, spinshot, SJC, Fair, Bair, Nair, Uair, he has a massive amount of approach and chase ability.
NOt to mention his incredible ground speed alone lets him keep up with characters he has just knocked across the screen. Can you name anyone else capable of doing such a thing?
I thought not.

Seriously I am surprised you are even making any comments since you obviously have NO knowledge of Sonic's gameplay.

I would love to give you an entire lecture on Sonic but I find pointing to the sonic forums is more than enough.
Go there. You'll learn something.

I blow at multi-quoting. Nuff said. Anyway, your explanation of spinshotting is a spindash in the air. Spindashing on the ground=spinshotting in the air. Aerials are punishable by a lot of methods. Ditto with the spring jump. And Falcon can also keep up with other characters that are halfway across the stage

MK also has a crapload of killing ability. MK also racks up 150% in the time span it takes a normal character to get to 100%. Sonic can't do that. And Sonic can go through the NIKITA, which goes through, or cancels, anything not thrown by DDD? (And maybe one or two others) Uh-huh.

And I feel insulted by the amount of flaming you dish out.

 

[ShadowLink84]

YOU STOP playing online proves nothing at ALL!!!! there sonic is good you can't powersheild and abuse his slow start up play in real life and the amazing difference

I also play in a local tournament held every now and then near me in Scranton and I do quite well.

Why are people like you smash debaters? Assumptions are something smash debaters NEVER do.

I blow at multi-quoting. Nuff said.

Fine fine

Anyway, your explanation of spinshotting is a spindash in the air. Spindashing on the ground=spinshotting in the air. Aerials are punishable by a lot of methods. Ditto with the spring jump. And Falcon can also keep up with other characters that are halfway across the stage

No.
Seriously freaking no.
Spinshotting is thi.
You start a spindash then imediately hit jump.
Your spindash gets CANCELED and Sonic goes flying at a low arc at speeds much greater than any haracter in the game.
Seriously learn the terms before you mention the term.
Aerials are punishable only when they are slow.

Spring jump is not punishable.
How will you punish something with dodge frames unless Sonic is right in front of you after a spring jump? Never going to happen sorry nope.

Falcon can keep up with people? To a certain degree.
Sonic can stay within attack range constantly.
So if someone Fsmashes your falcon to the right. I can spincharge and keep up with you and maintain pressure.
Falcon cannot do that at such an incredible degree period.
Sonic just such faster than Falcon and has far more options for chasing and pressuring than Falcon does.

MK also has a crapload of killing ability.

No he doesn't.
D smash
Fsmash ^B.
only three definite killing moves.
Just like Sonic.

MK also racks up 150% in the time span it takes a normal character to get to 100%. Sonic can't do that.

your right Sonic can't rack them up to 150% as fast sa Mk that is true. However he does rack up damage more quickly and more safely than the average character.

And Sonic can go through the NIKITA, which goes through, or cancels, anything not thrown by DDD? (And maybe one or two others) Uh-huh.

Here is a list of things that can stop Sonic spindash during the initial hop.
Luigi fireball/gordo/environmental hazards.
GG.
You know nothing of Sonic's moves or their behavior.

Oh and if it seems like flaming its actually cause its fact.
You say, Sonic is worse than CF. That is untrue, Sonic is far better than Falcon that is a fact.
CF has never won a tournament. Sonic has won 3.
CF cannot approach, he gets camped to death. Sonic approaches **** near everyone including Wolf.
CF cannot get past projectiles easily
Sonic goes through them as if they were not even there.

Heck you want ot know why DDD is at a disadvantage against Sonic?
because Sonic gets close so quickly DDD can do little against him.
Waddle Dee spam is also useless.

Does falcon have an advantage against DDD? No.

Is falcon bottom tier? Yes
is sonic? No , mid tier upper mid tier at best.
Lower mid tier at worst.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Not that I'm against multiquoting, but wow, I edited you posts a lot just so I could make my replies look nice. hehe.

Sonic's Bair outprioritizes Falcon's Bair

Not rly, they have about the same range. Sonic's goes lower, but Falcon's is stronger.

Sonic's Fair is an excellent combo/edge guarding tool and can kill off the stage at lower percentages.

Falcon's Fair is crap.

Falcon's F-air is automatically a lot better than Sonics due to the fact HE CAN STILL D-AIR COMBO INTO IT.

And no, Falcon's F-air is quite good since it causes a lot of tripping sourspotted which CAN SET UP GUARANTEED Up-B COMBOS.

Sonic's Uair has better range and knock back and can kill medium weight characters at 90 to 100%.

Lies, Falcon's U-air has liek the most range of any U-air except for Ganondorf's. No joke rly. Also Falcon's U-air has really good knockback in Brawl too, and can be still used for the tipman's spike.

Sonic's D-air can semispike and be canceled. It also has good priority.

Falcon's D-air autocancel >>> Sonic's D-air.

Except Falcon's N-air has NO priority and is useless. Sonic's comes out just as fast, has more knock back and more priority.

Sonic's is marginally better for approaching on the ground and has no priority either. Falcon's N-air actually has good range and can hit people in the air, and it has good damage output. Meybe Sonic's kills marginally more?

I disagree about Metaknight's D-smash and Up-B being the best two kills, I think Snake, Olimar and a few others kill better.

Snake has only one reliable kill move (U-tilt). Olimar might be slightly better at killing, but his kill moves don't have nearly the same crazy gimp potential that Metaknight's do. Metaknight's kill moves are both insanely strong, and good at gimping (plus very easy to land), which IMO is the best situation for a kill move.

For one MK's ^B is situational and it can be difficult to set up against an opponent.

Who cares? It can't really be punished, and it's super fast and really good out of shield. If he misses the Up-B, the glide attack is awesome too.

MK's Dsmash is fast but again it will be expected so many stay out of range.

Just because you know what will kill you doesn't mean it will be easy to avoid. Again it can't be punished. It hits real low, and is super fast OOS.

The main reason MK's moves are spammable is because they are fast AND they have massive priority. Sonic can spam his Fair and Bair but the issue with priority means they aren't spammable.
For example Marth can spam his Fair because of the range, speed and priority.
While Sonic certainly can get in range and the speed of his aerials is quick, he has no priority so spamming them is an issue.

Yeah, you got that right hurhurhur. Sonic's lack of priority prevents him from doing anything good. MK is too good because he wins too much in priority and speed, AND his kill options are HAX. Yeah, MK loses to Snake, but he does like way better against everyone else, and Snake gets owned by campers.

Fair and Bair increase the horizontal distance and you clearl yignored pinshotting to ^B post.
Not only that the ^B has dodge frames so hitting him during an ^B is near impossible.
Homing attack further increases his recovery.
He can techchase everyone in the game and can chase them while they are flying through the game.

Yeah, you can techchase with ANYONE if you know what you're doing. Almost everyone does it better than Sonic because they have way better options to hit people with that have more range and power.

Sonic is KNOWN for approaching.'
Try to camp a Sonic while you are Pit and tell me how it works out for you please.

Nah, he can't approach. He has to bait out openings in everything. His lack of priority forces him to get closer to people where he is not safe on block. Almost everyone agree's Falcon is terrible at approaching but he actually has a few good attacks for approaching while Sonic has zero reliable attacks for approaching.

Snake is actually a pro at dealing with campers. He literally forces them to stop camping.

No, campers force SNAKE to stop camping. Put Falco against Snake, you force him to crouch. Put Pikachu against Snake, you neutralize grenades and mines. Put Dedede against him, Snake's spam doesn't go anywhere. Furthermore all three of these characters chaingrab him to death and are very good at ledgeguarding him.

You go to avoid the purple pikin, you get grabbed.

He can't grab you if you are in the air.

Do you know how insanely difficult it is to get close to olimar?

As a matter of a fact I do. I main G&W and know that Olimar is hard to deal with.

Yeah he sucks off the ledge but thats as easy as trying to fight MK head to head in the air.

Olimar also sucks in the air where he can't grab or pluck Pikmin.

I would honestly ask to face your Falcon against my Sonic but sadly I have no wifi until sometime next weekend. Seriously how the hell is Sonic incapable at approaching?
THat's like saying Ike;s moves cannot kill.

Actually Ike has trouble killing because he's very telegraphed on many attacks. Sonic can't approach because he lacks priority, the same reason why Falcon is terrible at approaching, and Falcon has more range and priority than Sonic.

Don't challenge me on Wifi because my connection sucks.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

why would you a person who i guess assumes i'm a bad guy because i say don't play brawl online. Becasue it sucks online. you do well in tournaments and what not great then you should agree with the fact that captain falcon is better everyone says that.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

why would you a person who i guess assumes i'm a bad guy because i say don't play brawl online.

I'm going to become the best Kirby in the world anytakers i will play online if i have to

But then... How will we know if your Kirby improves?

 

[PIMPSLAP]

that why i said if i have too nice investigating

 

[St. Viers]

people, sonic's spindash has INSANE priority on the initial dash, the problem is that it's easy to get used to spamming, as it's sonic's only safe approach, except for his dash attack, which goes psat the shield.

However, both are weak, and easily predicted.

Sonic's n-air does have priority, but only because it comes out fast. Falcon's properly spaced n-air has MORE priority, because it has a larger hit-box...learn what priority is ^_^ Also, falcon's up-air has greater overall range, but less vertical range, and sonic's up-air last's longer while vertical >_>

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

One Great person playing a character does not hide the inherit disadvantages said character has. Does that change the programming containing the values of the character and make them better? No, using the "Beat this guy" arguement is bad.

ChuDat+IC's=Your Argument is Proved Incorrect Sir.


No Johns.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not that I'm against multiquoting, but wow, I edited you posts a lot just so I could make my replies look nice. hehe.

Oook

Not rly, they have about the same range. Sonic's goes lower, but Falcon's is stronger.

Nottoo sure. Even so the difference isn't so great since Sonic's can kill at 100%

Falcon's F-air is automatically a lot better than Sonics due to the fact HE CAN STILL D-AIR COMBO INTO IT.

WOMG he can combo into the Fair. Yes lets forget that the Fair has very little priority.
Snic's Fair has some priority and can go into another Fair/Nair/semispiked Dair.

And no, Falcon's F-air is quite good since it causes a lot of tripping sourspotted which CAN SET UP GUARANTEED Up-B COMBOS.

Cause really no one is going to be in the air when Falcon is.

Lies, Falcon's U-air has liek the most range of any U-air except for Ganondorf's.

But lesser priority and power.

No joke rly. Also Falcon's U-air has really good knockback in Brawl too, and can be still used for the tipman's spike.

tipman's spike? Don't you mean semispike? I am probably thinking something else.
Sonic's has a small disjointed box when his feet clap and can outrange many character's Dair. It can be used for lethal edge guarding at 90 and on percentages.

Falcon's D-air autocancel >>> Sonic's D-air.

Why cause it can be SH canceled? Yes but Sonic's can semispike which I find much more useful than Falcon's Dair.

Sonic's is marginally better for approaching on the ground and has no priority either. Falcon's N-air actually has good range and can hit people in the air, and it has good damage output. Meybe Sonic's kills marginally more?

He actually has some priority. he has low, Falcon hjas much lower.
Sonic's Nair can kill more easily than Falcon's nair which is more situational, Sonic's Nair can also be used to combo.

Snake has only one reliable kill move (U-tilt).

I thought we were going on the number of kill moves.

Olimar might be slightly better at killing, but his kill moves don't have nearly the same crazy gimp potential that Metaknight's do.

THats right cause they flat out kill.

Metaknight's kill moves are both insanely strong, and good at gimping (plus very easy to land), which IMO is the best situation for a kill move.

his kill moves don't gimp. You are reffering to his Fair. I find SOnic's to be better since K's knocks them vertically more than Sonic's and so can take longer to kill.
Dar is better IMO for MK.

Who cares? It can't really be punished, and it's super fast and really good out of shield. If he misses the Up-B, the glide attack is awesome too.

It means little if your opponent is expecting it half the time.
Since its situational you won't be using it very often so your opponent will be alive for a good deal longer than one would want.

Just because you know what will kill you doesn't mean it will be easy to avoid. Again it can't be punished. It hits real low, and is super fast OOS.

Dsmash is more reliable. The ^B is more situational than the Dsmash and Fsmash since MK has more moves that can combo directly into his ground smashes than the ^B.

Yeah, you got that right hurhurhur. Sonic's lack of priority prevents him from doing anything good.

uair~Uair says hi
Dash~>Upspecial~>uair.

Dsmash is good for edge guarding.
Fsmash can be super stuter stepped to increase its range by a massive amount.
Fair~Fair, sonic may lack priority, but the setups often make it that it won't be a problem.
If you are playing Sonic well your moves will rarely clash and you will never attac an enemy headon.
DAC?
ASC
Grab and pummel game?
Chasing, pressuring? Am I getting ignored?

MK is too good because he wins too much in priority and speed, AND his kill options are HAX. Yeah, MK loses to Snake, but he does like way better against everyone else, and Snake gets owned by campers.

Snake doesn't get owned by campers. Only one that camps better than him is Olimar.
He is top tier for a reason

Yeah, you can techchase with ANYONE if you know what you're doing. Almost everyone does it better than Sonic because they have way better options to hit people with that have more range and power.

Wrong very wrong.
yes anyone can techchase but can they techchase well? Can they maintain a chase?
No. Sonic is really one of the better characters at chasing. He has far more options than other characters.
As I said you know very little of Sonic if you are saying such things.

Nah, he can't approach. He has to bait out openings in everything. His lack of priority forces him to get closer to people where he is not safe on block. Almost everyone agree's Falcon is terrible at approaching but he actually has a few good attacks for approaching while Sonic has zero reliable attacks for approaching.

Wrong.
Spacing is Sonic's game. Not many characters can maintain spacing as well as he can. ZSS can't, Lucas can't. Link can't.
Again you appear to be ignoring everything I said.
DAC
ASC
SJC
Spinshotting
Dash shield cancel.
Shall I go on?
Falcon can't approach period, he gets camped to death. A good sonic never has that happen.
He has a multiple amount of ways for approaching safely, and quickly.

SH bair, Sh nair, Sh Fair. No way to approach reliably? Obviously you did not see my posts.
Sonic defines approaching.

No, campers force SNAKE to stop camping. Put Falco against Snake, you force him to crouch. Put Pikachu against Snake, you neutralize grenades and mines. Put Dedede against him, Snake's spam doesn't go anywhere. Furthermore all three of these characters chaingrab him to death and are very good at ledgeguarding him.

Then why doesn't Link do well again Snake?
Why does Pit not do well against snake?
What aboutTL?
Those characters can camp but they don't murder snake either.
a good number of characters can ledgeguard sake well, Snake's ability outside the arena is horrible.
Chaingrab is escapable the computer escapes around 45% (i have yet to replicate but it can be done apparently)
Yes I used the computer to test the chaingrab since their reactions are better than humans usually.

He can't grab you if you are in the air.

Problem is that you can't stay in the air too long. you're going to come down some time and many of his attacks are good for antiair.
Lets say you are in the air. He throws you dodge and get nailed by a Fair.
you knock the purple one away you get hit by a Usmash.
Olimar is very difficult to appriach.

As a matter of a fact I do. I main G&W and know that Olimar is hard to deal with.
Olimar also sucks in the air where he can't grab or pluck Pikmin.

Yes that is true which i mentioned its part of the reason why off ledge he does so poorly. He has no easure to help himself in the air.
However the difficulty involved getting him there makes up for this.

Actually Ike has trouble killing because he's very telegraphed on many attacks.

you missed the point. It is like saying his attacks can't kill.

Sonic can't approach because he lacks priority, the same reason why Falcon is terrible at approaching, and Falcon has more range and priority than Sonic.

Sonic has better range due to his speed.
SJC
ASC
Spinshot
homing attack
DAC

All of these are part of how Sonic can approachand guess what, they work VERY effectively.
Watch a few videos of Sonic in the character forums, they show very very well on how good Sonic is at approaching.

Don't challenge me on Wifi because my connection sucks.

Fine if you live nearby we can face off at some tournament or another.

people, sonic's spindash has INSANE priority on the initial dash, the problem is that it's easy to get used to spamming, as it's sonic's only safe approach, except for his dash attack, which goes psat the shield.

It isn't only Sonic's safe approach.
DAC, ASC, Spinshot, SJC all say otherwise.

A good Sonic mixes in all his approaches and is hard to predict.

 

[A2ZOMG]

people, sonic's spindash has INSANE priority on the initial dash, the problem is that it's easy to get used to spamming, as it's sonic's only safe approach, except for his dash attack, which goes psat the shield.

Falcon kick >>> Sonic's approaches. It does the go past shield factor better. Falcon can also autocancel D-airs. His U-tilt is also an attack with VERY GOOD priority, that KILLS and is reasonably fast.

However, both are weak, and easily predicted.

Yep, this is where Falcon pwns Sonic. Take autocancel Dair, and you land it, you do great damage and get a combo. If you get someone in your U-tilt, you send them far away with good damage. Falcon kick while low knockback does good damage. Heck even Up-B out of shield is really good because it has good range, grabs, and is strong.

Sonic's n-air does have priority, but only because it comes out fast. Falcon's properly spaced n-air has MORE priority, because it has a larger hit-box...learn what priority is ^_^ Also, falcon's up-air has greater overall range, but less vertical range, and sonic's up-air last's longer while vertical >_>

Perfectly said man.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

ChuDat+IC's=Your Argument is Proved Incorrect Sir.


No Johns.

where evil choosen one we have pink letters

 

[Gregorius]

Based off of my tourney experience, and online practice, and maybe a bit of influences from this topic, heres what I think. Note that I could probably make more tiers, but it is obviously easier to have fewer tiers. I'm not exactly a scientist here. I have just played alot.
TOP:

Snake
Metaknight

HIGH:

Pikachu
Marth
Falco
Toon Link
R.O.B.
Game and Watch
Zelda
Wolf

MID:

King DeDeDe
Fox
Pit
Luigi
Wario
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Lucas
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Pokemon Trainer
Bowser

LOW:

Link
Mario
Peach
Kirby
Samus
Sheik
ZSS
Ike
Yoshi
Ness

BOTTOM:

Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Sonic
Captain Falcon
Lucario

 

[ShadowLink84]

Falcon kick >>> Sonic's approaches. It does the go past shield factor better. Falcon can also autocancel D-airs. His U-tilt is also an attack with VERY GOOD priority, that KILLS.

*grabs him out of it* Falcon what?

Sonic can SH fair, SH Nair, SH Bair SH Uair.
Mmmm
As I said Sonic's approaches trumps Falcon's approaches by a large margin.

Yep, this is where Falcon pwns Sonic. Take autocancel Dair, and you land it, you do great damage and get a combo. If you get someone in your U-tilt, you send them far away with good damage. Falcon kick while low knockback does good damage.

Falcon kick does good damage but you cannot follow it up afterwards.
Sonic can follow up with much more attacks.
Sonic also can SH Dair.\How often are you landing a SH Dair?
Not often. Ganon does it much more often because he has his flamechoke which sets up immediately for a tech chase or Dair combo. Falcon has very little other than the Fair which has low priority.
If Sonic lands any spindash attack he can combo.

Sonic can deal with lack of hitstun, Falcon can't.

I really would like you to see the Sonic videos in the sonic forum.