Official BBR Tier List v7

[Claire Diviner]

Its my understanding that teching it gives DKs opponent a frame advantage which lets them hit him first or footstool and he dies.

Well, this is assuming the opponent knows to do that. Wouldn't most people just try to recover immediately?

 

[Tesh]

Well if you panic off stage vs DK, yea you probably die. But there are too many safe options after the tech to die to his slow aerials. Maybe on FD where the stage won't auto-aim a rising airdodge onto the stage for you.

 

[ViperGold42]

Well, this is assuming the opponent knows to do that. Wouldn't most people just try to recover immediately?

that's what most people do Tesh is just trolling like usual.

 

[Exceladon City]

Well, this is assuming the opponent knows to do that. Wouldn't most people just try to recover immediately?

Well, it's generally a priority to get back on the stage. You could footstool him if you're confident in it. I'm sure most would just get back on the stage and punish his ledge options.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I've started using DK in friendlies, and when I go for stage spikes like that, my buddy footstools me out of it like half the time. I only just started using DK, so it's not like he has a ton of experience with it, it's just something that happens. Like, if he doesn't miss the tech, there's like a 50% chance he'll footstool me by accident. That's not great odds for a kill when DK kinda has lots of kill options.

 

[Airslash]

IC's got a good MU spread vs the cast, I can't think of a character outside of MK that's supposed to reliably beat them or come close to it. Most of their prior hard MU's got easier over time with stage list changes and significant improvements in overall IC gameplay.

Snake though... he's not the same god as before lol. IDK what you expect out of Snake players, it sounds a liiiiiiiittle bit of a double standard though. Dropping grabs with IC's won't count against the player, but getting gimped as Snake or juggled or xyz must mean he's not doing it right he's always got an answer and a grenade for the situation.

Yoshi > IC.

 

[Doc King]

Dedede>Yoshi>IC

 

[Tesh]

that's what most people do Tesh is just trolling like usual.

Yes, against characters that are rarely mained and even more rarely used WELL, people will do the wrong thing. Panic doesn't make it a viable option when staying calm means DK will probably die or take alot of damage. Even if you panic and rush to recover before DK, you get to ledge trap him and come out on top.


Bottom line is that cargo spiking isn't viable. Holding up lets you break out insanely fast so it can never be used to score "early" kills because DK kills earlier with everything else. His grab range also isn't stellar enough to shield grab anything good.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Yes, against characters that are rarely mained and even more rarely used WELL, people will do the wrong thing. Panic doesn't make it a viable option when staying calm means DK will probably die or take alot of damage. Even if you panic and rush to recover before DK, you get to ledge trap him and come out on top.


Bottom line is that cargo spiking isn't viable. Holding up lets you break out insanely fast so it can never be used to score "early" kills because DK kills earlier with everything else. His grab range also isn't stellar enough to shield grab anything good.

I don't know if what you say holds truth as far as cargo spiking not being viable, but to say his grab range isn't stellar? DK has the 4th longest non-tether grab in the game. I'd say that's pretty good.

 

[Tesh]

Iono, I've said this before, but his size makes it alot easier to hit him while avoiding his grab range. relative to other characters with similar sized grabs.

Grab is a little slow too.

 

[Claire Diviner]

True, certain characters can just "cattle prod" him from a safe enough distance to avoid his grab range, especially with his large frame equating to a large hurtbox. Still doesn't stop him from having a good grab range all the same.

 

[| Big D |]

IC > Yoshi

I play the MU tons with Firefly.

Yoshi has some safe stuff with DJ nair but once in Yoshi has no counter to a desynced blizzard as trying to trade will just get him hit. Ice blocks also create a real problem since Yoshi's shield is really bad.
Also Yoshi gets off on punishing landings, but Yoshi has no way of punishing blizzard.

Competent ICs vs competent Yoshi

I think this MU is hard for ICs but if both players know the MU it's in ICs favour.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I wanna play Delux again, he is way better than any of the ICs I played before him and he knows so much about them for each MU it's a pain to play it out.

Yoshi vs ICs, could be even still, Yoshi has got some good tools for that MU.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It is still even for us. Though I do wonder how it turned even in the 2nd MU chart. Along with other odd MU's like Diddy being -2.

Also, Big D that 2nd match in that video (which I've actually seen before now that I think about it...) made me cringe even more the first time I saw it months ago. Completely forgot he SD'd first stock, bad DI 2nd, and than 3rd stock messing up an egglay almost cost him the game. Along with game 3 having another egglay mess up almost leading to death till you dropped the grab.
Frigate is a decent stage, but with characters like Olimar ICs Snake etc. once they have control underneath the platform, they're not losing it anytime soon...

 

[Scatz]

Lmao, that MU is even man. It depends on who loses the stock first (Nana or Yoshi). You lose Nana, and it's extremely hard to hit us or even get a legit kill on a patient Yoshi, but we lose the stock first, and we have to approach which is what ICs want. Certain stages shut us down due to the design, but outside of those, we're not in any serious trouble.

 

[ViperGold42]

aw man I never would have thought of that.

 

[DMG]

Wtf @ you two misconstruing my argument as if I've said that % shouldn't be a criterion, when all I said was that it shouldn't be the only criterion. I've never said that one is worth more than the other - on the contrary, the fact that one is held to be more important than the other is my whole issue to begin with.

And yes, rematching is one solution that I think is a lot better than %. Because you use a stock to determine the winner of a stock-battle, not percent. That'd be consistent and guess what - suddenly the whole "omg planking and scrooging so broken"-BS wouldn't even be an issue because you can't just plank / scrooge a 15% lead over two minutes and gain a win from it.
Point proven: MK is not "broken" because of planking / scrooging. Planking / scrooging are the results of flaws in the ruleset that need to be fixed because they provide an arbitrary buff to MK.

All that I talked about is that we've gone over countless suggestions and alternatives LIKE knockback weight handicaps so that Snake at "40%" is considered ahead of Jiggs at "15%", damage dealt, etc. Regardless of what you are trying to use, either these alone or some funky combination, the underlying point is that I don't see how you consider them feasible, desirable, or potentially preferred over/alongside the % rule. Those alternatives are preeeeety bad. Again, the stock rematch idea has a lot more merit to it that's a plausible and not bad idea. This other stuff that keeps getting brought up just needs to be buried forever because it's not gonna happen lol.


No one is going to make a weight chart/handicap system, compare knockback or damage or blah blah blah. You shouldn't even TRY to go into those aspects of the game and trying to judge whether someone is definitively winning based off any of those. If you think it's shaky trying to determine a winner off of %, adding a win condition based on "who was on the ground the most" or who did the most knockback doesn't seem like an improvement and I've not been persuaded since Day 1 of these creations that they should ever see the light of day at tournaments lol.


And what would you do if the win conditions conflict with each other? What if I have a massive % lead, but technically I'm behind on total damage done, knockback inflicted, more time in the air, etc? Do I win lose draw? The current set up is fairly easy. Besides LGL, just check stock and if necessary %. Winner found unless you're tied in both. This setup, tell me who wins if stock is the same, % is different, 1 guy is ahead damage dealt, another is ahead on knockback (or the same guy is, gimme different scenarios and winners), 1 is ahead on ground time, another is ahead on the weight handicap, etc. Do you think someone would be any less salty if they lose with a % lead because we arbitrarily determined that Jiggs only being 35% ahead of Snake is nothing and that technically he's winning the match due to weight and reasonable considerations like kill power? Any way you slice it, you step into doo doo with these alternatives and adding them/combining them with existing rules does not improve their worth at all.


Now, lets watch Sktar and enjoy ourselves instead of trying to argue that these ideas should be used.

 

[Doc King]

I have a simple question. Can Yoshi's shield power shield? Also what are the differences between Yoshi's and other characters shields? What are the effects and stuff about Yoshi's shield?

 

[Claire Diviner]

I have a simple question. Can Yoshi's shield power shield? Also what are the differences between Yoshi's and other characters shields? What are the effects and stuff about Yoshi's shield?

Yes, Yoshi can power shield. The differences between Yoshi's shield and other characters shields is that Yoshi's shield covers the entirety of his body, making him immune to shield-stabbing, and instead of shrinking, his shield darkens in color as it takes damage. Yoshi also cannot jump while shielding, and considering his slow grab animation, his OoS options aren't very good as a result. He's also unable to glide toss.

 

[Doc King]

Can Yoshi powershield cancel? Can Yoshi do ground attacks while shielding?

 

[Tesh]

why can't he glidetoss? something wrong with his roll too?

 

[tarextherex]

Yoshi can't glidetoss with roll but his DAC item toss is one of the best

He can «glidetoss» like Link and Snake do when you hold jump while throwing the item, his low traction makes that he actually travels quite a bit of distance when he does that

He can do ground attacks but his shield drop animation is too long so it's obviously not as fast as other characters' oos. As for powershielding I heard multiple times that it doesn't do anything better, but from what I experienced, when Yoshi powershields he pretty much has a normal shield for once and it's actually possible to punish oos.. it's just that the timing to powershield is dumb, and reacting to is it too since you usually powershield by mistake when you spotdodge

 

[Claire Diviner]

why can't he glidetoss? something wrong with his roll too?

Yes, his roll is also different than the other characters as he remains inside his egg as he rolls, making glide tossing impossible. Link and Toon Link have this same issue too for some reason, despite their shields being no different than other characters.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshi CAN powershield but he CANT glide toss. Glide toss probably has to do with his roll being different, I mean, it can apply shield knockback into the roll distance so you roll further which no other shield does, so I wouldnt doubt it has other weird properties.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yes, Yoshi can power shield. The differences between Yoshi's shield and other characters shields is that Yoshi's shield covers the entirety of his body, making him immune to shield-stabbing.

Not entirely true, we can actually get shield stabbed from underneath randomly.

Yoshi CAN powershield but he CANT glide toss. Glide toss probably has to do with his roll being different, I mean, it can apply shield knockback into the roll distance so you roll further which no other shield does, so I wouldnt doubt it has other weird properties.

Odd that we can't glide toss but still have the option of throwing items while in shield still. Oh and I think I faintly remember Scatz wanting to do some frame data on our powershielding to see if we can actually punish things out of it. Though I highly doubt it...

The only use I ever see from that roll is usually after shielding someones smash attack and sliding further away from them.

 

[Scatz]

I have a simple question. Can Yoshi's shield power shield? Also what are the differences between Yoshi's and other characters shields? What are the effects and stuff about Yoshi's shield?

Aside from what Sol said, Yoshi can power shield, but it gives no sound. Only a visual.

Can Yoshi powershield cancel? Can Yoshi do ground attacks while shielding?

No. Due to programming, they forced Yoshi to go through his entire unshield animation (17 frames) before doing anything. Only thing that can interrupt the animation is spotdodge.

why can't he glidetoss? something wrong with his roll too?

Because he forced to completely unshield due to programming. With that issue, his roll overrides glide tossing.

Edit: because this game is so horrible in terms of frame advantage, we can unshield and punish certain moves better than always spotdodging.

 

[Doc King]

Damn I feel bad for Yoshi. I bet like MK can do some shield traps on Yoshi or something along with many others.

I want Aerodrome to test some shield traps, combos, shield breaks or someone else to test this stuff.

 

[Scatz]

Everyone can. They just haven't figured it out yet, which is hilarious to me.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Doesn't Yoshi also get ****ed over by his shield taking 17 frames to drop instead of 7, like everyone else? That further makes his OoS options look like ***. Like he doesn't already have enough problems with his shield.

 

[Sol9000]

Aside from what Sol said, Yoshi can power shield, but it gives no sound. Only a visual.



No. Due to programming, they forced Yoshi to go through his entire unshield animation (17 frames) before doing anything. Only thing that can interrupt the animation is spotdodge.



Because he forced to completely unshield due to programming. With that issue, his roll overrides glide tossing.

Edit: because this game is so horrible in terms of frame advantage, we can unshield and punish certain moves better than always spotdodging.

Does This Involve Me?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No, it doesn't. Go away.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

All that I talked about is that we've gone over countless suggestions and alternatives LIKE knockback weight handicaps so that Snake at "40%" is considered ahead of Jiggs at "15%", damage dealt, etc. Regardless of what you are trying to use, either these alone or some funky combination, the underlying point is that I don't see how you consider them feasible, desirable, or potentially preferred over/alongside the % rule. Those alternatives are preeeeety bad. Again, the stock rematch idea has a lot more merit to it that's a plausible and not bad idea. This other stuff that keeps getting brought up just needs to be buried forever because it's not gonna happen lol.


No one is going to make a weight chart/handicap system, compare knockback or damage or blah blah blah. You shouldn't even TRY to go into those aspects of the game and trying to judge whether someone is definitively winning based off any of those. If you think it's shaky trying to determine a winner off of %, adding a win condition based on "who was on the ground the most" or who did the most knockback doesn't seem like an improvement and I've not been persuaded since Day 1 of these creations that they should ever see the light of day at tournaments lol.

What the **** are you even talking about and what does this have to do with anything? You talk stuff about handicap and a chart and whatnot and I have no clue what you even want <_<

All I said is that %-rule in case of a timeout is an arbitrary buff to characters like MK.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

DMG was explaining why they alternatives to % aren't better, like you claimed they were.

Not rocket science :/

 

[Claire Diviner]

This is why the ledge-grab limit exists, so that the percent rule wouldn't give MK that big a buff. Sure, MK players can stretch their ledge grab limit quite well in some cases, but MK players, if I remember correctly, have a lower ledge-grab number than any other character. The only way to not make MK benefit from the ledge-grab limit at all is to either extend the time of matches to about 15 minutes, or by limiting his ledge-grab to about 15-20. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with another dead horse here.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well the problem is that a lot of people claim the LGL to be an arbitrary nerf to MK ... when it's actually a counter-measure against an arbitrary buff for MK.

 

[Claire Diviner]

So then why bring up the percent ruling? I mean, sure, it's not a bad to suggest new ideas for rules, even for the sake of testing, but doesn't the LGL help to hinder planking by most MK players anyway, which would otherwise result in unneeded timeouts?

 

[Napos]

lucas move up a spot?

 

[Claire Diviner]

No, Lucas remained the same.

 

[da K.I.D.]

What does arbitrary mean? because if we recognise that MK is a problem and then put the ledge grab rule in place because of him, then is it still arbitrary?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What does arbitrary mean? because if we recognise that MK is a problem and then put the ledge grab rule in place because of him, then is it still arbitrary?

Regardless of MKs existence it is an arbitrary decision to use % as the deciding factor upon a timeout.