ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Pervs the lot of ya.
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Official BBR Tier List v7
- Thread starter Marc
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Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Who wants to talk about snake match ups again!?!?! 
I wonder what that would sound like
SoulPech
Smash Master
That's like putting a band-aid over a compound fracture.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
DEAL WITH IT TABLE-SAN!
BlueXenon
Smash Lord
I cant decide if snake vs mk is -2 or -1. Sometimes I think its -2 because snake can die very early multiple times, but then I rewatch Ally's snake vs mk's and think its -1.Who wants to talk about snake match ups again!?!?!
Osennecho
Smash Ace
No Ally's Snake makes it look even LOL. Anyways, I think it is pretty solid -1.
Sure, let's take a moment to revisit DDD vs Snake.Who wants to talk about snake match ups again!?!?!
At this rate I'll have a platinum album in no time. I'll try not to forget all of my friends in this lovely thread when i'm rollin up to Rutgers in my benzo blazin a fat blunt with 6 ******* in da front seat who all be like "XxJiGgLyPuFf_DuDe_420xX you're so cool for maining jigglypuff and everyone in the scene has a smaller penis than you" while i crack a laugh just enough to show off my grill encrusted with the shiny jewelized tears of GaW mains
I must say, that was a very convincing argument and I now believe that a D3 vs Snake rap battle is +4 D3's favour.
Random question, I'm wondering if someone could explain to me why permanent walk-off stages are banned. I get that characters like DDD get a stock off every grab, but then so do ICs on a lot of stages. I don't understand what the difference is.
Shadocat
Smash Ace
dead @ "asterisk"
permanent walk-offs are banned because most people just don't want to deal with what the game could come down to.
walk-off camping isn't broken but in a game where people are used to being able to make 5-10 mistakes a stock before dying, getting backthrown for 1 mistake and dying at 0 annoys people
alot of stages are banned for this reason tbh
walk-off camping isn't broken but in a game where people are used to being able to make 5-10 mistakes a stock before dying, getting backthrown for 1 mistake and dying at 0 annoys people
alot of stages are banned for this reason tbh
Shadocat
Smash Ace
Man if hyrule temple were legal, sonic would be the best character in the game.
Brinstar and Norfair should be the only legal stages since they can potentially interrupt chaingrabs
only half-trolling
only half-trolling
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
-2 imo. Maybe -1 on FD and PS1
Ally makes the match up look like a solid -1 for sure v-v
yeah, a -1 for MK
Dcold
Smash Lord
Because there aren't 2 Pikachu players 
blacktwins13
Smash Journeyman
Follow me on Youtube Twitter and Facebook @YouTwitFace :D
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
I want to write an analysis of this match up but I haven't played it enough to properly argue why its not -2.
I feel that Pikachu should be having a lot more trouble getting in on snake. Proper grenade play should make pikachu's chaingrab less relevant in the match up, while pika still maintains its ability to juggle snake.
There's also pikachu having poor rolls which makes it really easy for snake to land dash attack punishes on a lot of things and dthrow tech chasing better.
I want to go into more detail but have only played this match up 2-3 times isn't enough.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Can we talk DK vs. MK?
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
MK bodies Dk free +3 gg's 2ez rip dk
Dekillsage, what are your thoughts on Snake vs each of the spacies? Overall, how do you feel Snake's MUs are with the upper end of mid-tier?
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
+1 wolf, 55-45 with fox and -1(potentially much worse) vs FalcoDekillsage, what are your thoughts on Snake vs each of the spacies? Overall, how do you feel Snake's MUs are with the upper end of mid-tier?
Mostly because of how they are vs snake at neutral. Fox and Falco kinda don't play the "get around grenades" game because they just shoot them out of my hands.
I don't think wolf really has trouble fighting snake at neutral either. He just seems to have more trouble killing snake and is a lot easier to fight against up close. If a character can't reliably kill snake then you kinda just lose to him in the end just because v_v
Upper end of mid tier is borderline right?
Imo
We +2 Gw, +2 Peach, +1 Pit, +1 Rob, and Kirby/ToonLink are 65-35 vs Snake in snakes favor.
Actually, everyone in borderline and lower with the exception of Fox is +1 or better.
SoulPech
Smash Master
So Lewd........
I see. What you said about Wolf is definitely true, but he has the potential to juggle and ledgetrap Snake worse than the other two spacies. Would you say that Wolf is above-average at irritating a Snake being juggled / on the ledge? Still think it's a light +1 for Snake (around 55-45 if you want to use numbers) though, Wolf really doesn't like characters that don't die :<
Do you think Snake is due for more drops as time goes on? Seems *slightly* like D3 and G&W where the character does really well against those below him but gets their weaknesses abused by top tier, although nowhere near as bad as D3/G&W.
Do you think Snake is due for more drops as time goes on? Seems *slightly* like D3 and G&W where the character does really well against those below him but gets their weaknesses abused by top tier, although nowhere near as bad as D3/G&W.
blacktwins13
Smash Journeyman
MK Beats DK Cause MK has higher letters
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
It's hard to say to be honest. Wolf juggles snake just as well as lets say.. kirby does. Problem is neither of you guys can kill snake from an initial juggle (unless you take my jump with your gun somehow and spike me). After the juggle ends you're stuck with trying to beat snake @ neutral again, and then trying to trap him into kills, but that becomes difficult when snake has the option to recover high to avoid getting hit by dsmash. From what I was told Usmash doesn't work on snake either, considering it can be sdi'd. It's good but the characters I would put above average are people like ROB and DDD.I see. What you said about Wolf is definitely true, but he has the potential to juggle and ledgetrap Snake worse than the other two spacies. Would you say that Wolf is above-average at irritating a Snake being juggled / on the ledge? Still think it's a light +1 for Snake (around 55-45 if you want to use numbers) though, Wolf really doesn't like characters that don't die :<
Do you think Snake is due for more drops as time goes on? Seems *slightly* like D3 and G&W where the character does really well against those below him but gets their weaknesses abused by top tier, although nowhere near as bad as D3/G&W.
When it comes to Snakes results he kind of deserves a drop on the tier list. But he's still a top 5/6 character in this game (some people put him at like 8th... ridiculous). He doesn't even have the worse top tier mu spread when you look @ the top tier characters by themselves (diddy does) and I don't feel like Snake is getting worse... just our players. A lot of the other characters and their players have adapted and made the changes needed to keep up with the current metagame, but our player base is still stuck in like 2011 with the exceptions of ally, fatal and razer.(In NA) We're stuck because we don't exchange information properly, helping each other understand match ups and sharing different strategies.
It's gotten to the point where some people think snake vs dk, toonlink, kirby and ike are even...
Or maybe snake actually does suck
Wolf can kill with fair or bair at like... idk 150% or so from a reasonable position out of a juggle. Aside from aerials there's still the option of catching Snake's landing with dsmash or whatever, which is somewhat viable with Wolf's aerials. Otherwise I do agree though, if Wolf isn't in a position to land a kill move out of a juggle it's right back to the struggle at neutral. How does Falco reliably kill Snake?
How does Diddy have a worse spread vs the top? If Snake really goes -2 with MK then isn't that worse than everyone else in top? He also is the only character in top that doesn't beat anyone else in top (assuming Diddy/Snake is even, which is what I've heard most people say but idk the MU). The player issue is definitely valid for Snake, but there's also something to be said for how the two Snakes in APEX top 32 also had to use MK to make it that far. Not that APEX means everything, or that co-maining MK isn't uncommon, but when Diddy/ICs/Olimar/ZSS etc all managed to do it, why couldn't Snake at a tournament where almost all of his top players were in attendance?
EDIT: What are your thoughts on Snake's MUs with top tier btw?
lol Snake vs DK. lol any reasonable character vs DK.
How does Diddy have a worse spread vs the top? If Snake really goes -2 with MK then isn't that worse than everyone else in top? He also is the only character in top that doesn't beat anyone else in top (assuming Diddy/Snake is even, which is what I've heard most people say but idk the MU). The player issue is definitely valid for Snake, but there's also something to be said for how the two Snakes in APEX top 32 also had to use MK to make it that far. Not that APEX means everything, or that co-maining MK isn't uncommon, but when Diddy/ICs/Olimar/ZSS etc all managed to do it, why couldn't Snake at a tournament where almost all of his top players were in attendance?
EDIT: What are your thoughts on Snake's MUs with top tier btw?
lol Snake vs DK. lol any reasonable character vs DK.
GOofyGV
Smash Lord
It's hard to say to be honest. Wolf juggles snake just as well as lets say.. kirby does. Problem is neither of you guys can kill snake from an initial juggle (unless you take my jump with your gun somehow and spike me). After the juggle ends you're stuck with trying to beat snake @ neutral again, and then trying to trap him into kills, but that becomes difficult when snake has the option to recover high to avoid getting hit by dsmash. From what I was told Usmash doesn't work on snake either, considering it can be sdi'd. It's good but the characters I would put above average are people like ROB and DDD.
When it comes to Snakes results he kind of deserves a drop on the tier list. But he's still a top 5/6 character in this game (some people put him at like 8th... ridiculous). He doesn't even have the worse top tier mu spread when you look @ the top tier characters by themselves (diddy does) and I don't feel like Snake is getting worse... just our players. A lot of the other characters and their players have adapted and made the changes needed to keep up with the current metagame, but our player base is still stuck in like 2011 with the exceptions of ally, fatal and razer.(In NA) We're stuck because we don't exchange information properly, helping each other understand match ups and sharing different strategies.
It's gotten to the point where some people think snake vs dk, toonlink, kirby and ike are even...
Or maybe snake actually does suck
But I also think 65-35 is way to much in snake favour.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
What? Look at my post in context (man, this thread is bad at doing that). I replied to this:
You were literally asking for "personally opinionated arguments", so I gave you some. Besides, I ended my points with the statement that each TO should be allowed to run his tourney the way he likes without fear of being excluded from some 'exclusive benefits'.
Most MUs between chars that matter in this game can be learned reliably (as in, they're not worse than -2). For those few that can't be, I already said you should pick a secondary. You were the one who tried to use a 'I don't want a counterpicking environment' argument, as I pointed out above. Also, you misinterpreted my statements. My point was that every other fighting game with as many chars as Brawl has requires everyone to either learn bad MUs or pick up a secondary in order to be wholly successful in the face of the entire cast. Nobody has 100% good MUs. You said MK is the only "fair" character. I said that MK is actually extremely "unfair" because he is practically the only character in major FG history to break this rule (without being banned). Even the Melee spacees don't have that kind of MU spread. It is indeed "unhealthy" for any one character to completely circumvent the competition of the game by getting a completely advantageous MU spread (meaning every single other character is NOT getting that kind of MU spread, which is unfair and somewhat noncompetitive).
You know that there is such a thing as an 'easier -2', right?
inb4 ur not serious
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
EDIT: Misread your post
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Snake is not likely to win an MK-legal national. Shuttle Loop.
That's the primary argument I think most people have when they try to lower Snake on the tier list. He probably can't win a major event. Actually if you think about it, he shares a huge flaw (in terms of viability) with several mid tier characters (Dedede, Toon Link, Peach, Ike): Meta Knight is legal and these characters get completely stomped out by him.
Snake has it a little easier than any of these guys in the match-up, but he probably isn't going to win anything solo for more or less the same reason they don't.
That's the primary argument I think most people have when they try to lower Snake on the tier list. He probably can't win a major event. Actually if you think about it, he shares a huge flaw (in terms of viability) with several mid tier characters (Dedede, Toon Link, Peach, Ike): Meta Knight is legal and these characters get completely stomped out by him.
Snake has it a little easier than any of these guys in the match-up, but he probably isn't going to win anything solo for more or less the same reason they don't.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Snake has the tools to beat MK, unlike some characters, though. Which makes a world of difference cause tier list is partially based on theory-play (otherwise the tier list would just be aggregated tournament results); Ally is the evidence of this.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Sure, I'm not saying it's not possible for Snake to win. He's not Ganon. He has tools.
What he doesn't have is the kind of kit you need to be able to consistently land and recover against Meta Knight, who really thrives when against someone who can't do those things against him reliably. That's just a fact. You don't see a whole lot of Ally vs. MK these days and that's true for a reason. It's just a solid -2 match-up, and MK is the most common character out there.
Again, it's a problem of statistics. Snake has a -2 match-up against Pikachu, as well, but that doesn't matter nearly as much because Pikachu is so uncommon. The only Pikachu you ever really have to worry about playing is ESAM. Pocket Pikachu isn't going to do the trick. MK on the other hand is everywhere, and most everyone has some level of proficiency with him. If over half of your matches are against one of your worst match-ups and the other half can probably just pick MK and play reasonably well there's a good chance you aren't going to be staying in winners. Not that Ally is going to be losing to pocket MKs, I'm just trying to illustrate a point.
If you attack someone at their weakest point over and over again, eventually you'll land a blow.
What he doesn't have is the kind of kit you need to be able to consistently land and recover against Meta Knight, who really thrives when against someone who can't do those things against him reliably. That's just a fact. You don't see a whole lot of Ally vs. MK these days and that's true for a reason. It's just a solid -2 match-up, and MK is the most common character out there.
Again, it's a problem of statistics. Snake has a -2 match-up against Pikachu, as well, but that doesn't matter nearly as much because Pikachu is so uncommon. The only Pikachu you ever really have to worry about playing is ESAM. Pocket Pikachu isn't going to do the trick. MK on the other hand is everywhere, and most everyone has some level of proficiency with him. If over half of your matches are against one of your worst match-ups and the other half can probably just pick MK and play reasonably well there's a good chance you aren't going to be staying in winners. Not that Ally is going to be losing to pocket MKs, I'm just trying to illustrate a point.
If you attack someone at their weakest point over and over again, eventually you'll land a blow.
Within the last 12 months he has beaten M2K's MK 3 times and N@iro at least twice. He only lost 1 set to Zero. You don't see a lot of him vs MK because he doesn't attend a lot of tourneys anymore except for a few locals in Canada.
You can always cherry-pick your points to twist an argument in your favor though. Good stuff on that.
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