Official BBR Tier List v7

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Within the last 12 months he has beaten M2K's MK 3 times and N@iro at least twice. He only lost 1 set to Zero. You don't see a lot of him vs MK because he doesn't attend a lot of tourneys anymore except for a few locals in Canada.

You can always cherry-pick your points to twist an argument in your favor though. Good stuff on that.

He also beat FOW with Snake after getting 3 stocked game 1 in MK dittos

You know that there is such a thing as an 'easier -2', right?

inb4 ur not serious

When am I ever serious?

 

[ShadowLink84]

So Lewd........

This this face?
=|
THAT IS THE FACE OF UNCARING!


@ snake vs MK: Thought it was established some time ago that it was a small disadvantage for Snake? I haven't seen any reason to think otherwise. I do agree though that if it were not for MK, his more difficult matches would still be present.
Of course that isn't the case, and considering MK is LOL tier, that gives it alot more weight than his bad matchups.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Gheb, I genuinely thought he went other characters vs. MK. I'm not "cherry-picking" anything. Sorry, but I have things to do other than carefully comb AIB and SWF daily for results. I'll forego a little bit of accuracy to maintain my sanity, secure in the knowledge that you'll always be here to correct me, cutie.

I don't even care much about Snake. Character's good but gets owned by MK unless you're Ally, who doesn't even like the match-up. Whatever, Snake isn't going to win anything solo anymore.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'll still never understand why we decided that a character's solo strength is 99% of their tier position when dual-maining is a huge part of the metagame at every skill level (outside of MK).

When I brought this up ages ago as a reason for Falco being moved up, I'm pretty sure people responded with "Yeah, and lets move Ganondorf up because you can co-main him with MK".

I ****ing hate this site.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

How else do you think we should judge characters? Sorry but "worth as a secondary" isn't exactly a trait of value.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Worth as a secondary isn't a trait of value, because...?

 

[da K.I.D.]

@gheb is there a reason you intentionally avoided namedropping nairo and not m2k? Also. In order to get a proper understanding of what ally vs mk looks like as a whole, we'd kind of need to see all of the results of allys sets vs high level mks to make sure gheb isnt cherry picking as well. Because I was under the impression that it was well known that ally avoids the snake:MK matchup these days unless hes pulling it out as a 2nd or 3rd option.

worth as a secondary means nothing for 2 reasons. a. the best character doesn't need a secondary. and b. the only characters that would get a boost from that concept are the characters that already do the best vs mk, seeing as hes the most popular character by far and the one most people would be picking up a secondary for. and in that case, youre just going to end up maining the character that has the good matchup with mk because theres so many of them in tournament. which is where the ganon with a mk secondary concept comes from. and those characters are already at the top of the tier list.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ally doesn't play a whole lot anymore I believe. Before and especially after Apex his attendance was limited to locals in Michigan and Canada. He's not avoiding the match-up as much, he just doesn't have a whole lot of results in general right now. Maybe in 2011 he avoided the matchup but from mid 2012 onwards you'd see him go Snake a lot - especially vs MK. For how little he attended during that time his record vs good MKs [Fow, Koolaid, Nairo, M2K, Zero] is very good [must be about 7-1 or 8-1] and doesn't leave the impression that he's avoiding the matchup in any way.

Gheb, I genuinely thought he went other characters vs. MK. I'm not "cherry-picking" anything. Sorry, but I have things to do other than carefully comb AIB and SWF daily for results. I'll forego a little bit of accuracy to maintain my sanity, secure in the knowledge that you'll always be here to correct me, cutie.

Acceptable response. I apologize if you took any offence.

 

[Dekillsage]

Wolf can kill with fair or bair at like... idk 150% or so from a reasonable position out of a juggle. Aside from aerials there's still the option of catching Snake's landing with dsmash or whatever, which is somewhat viable with Wolf's aerials. Otherwise I do agree though, if Wolf isn't in a position to land a kill move out of a juggle it's right back to the struggle at neutral. How does Falco reliably kill Snake?

How does Diddy have a worse spread vs the top? If Snake really goes -2 with MK then isn't that worse than everyone else in top? He also is the only character in top that doesn't beat anyone else in top (assuming Diddy/Snake is even, which is what I've heard most people say but idk the MU). The player issue is definitely valid for Snake, but there's also something to be said for how the two Snakes in APEX top 32 also had to use MK to make it that far. Not that APEX means everything, or that co-maining MK isn't uncommon, but when Diddy/ICs/Olimar/ZSS etc all managed to do it, why couldn't Snake at a tournament where almost all of his top players were in attendance?

EDIT: What are your thoughts on Snake's MUs with top tier btw?

lol Snake vs DK. lol any reasonable character vs DK.

Diddy loses -2 to mk as well. So does Olimar. Falco and Ic's would be closer to the -1 range.
Snake loses to mk -2, Falco -1(or worse), Oli -1(Can potentially be in the 55-45/50-50 range), and beats Ic's +1 and Diddy +1

I thought ally was the only snake player to make it into the top 32. I wonder who he beat with MK, considering he lost to dabuz with MK and it didn't bring him any success when he had to play Fow. Did Havok use snake at all in bracket? He lost to hinkage in pools with snake I heard. Wouldn't imagine he would go snake after that happening. There's also the fact that he's a Mk main lol

Apex 2013 and Sktar are the only events I can think of where Snake has placed so piss poor. He got 7th by himself in 2012, that's pretty good~ Better than Ic's has ever done solo at apex, and just as good as diddy's ever done at apex.

Snake is not likely to win an MK-legal national. Shuttle Loop.

That's the primary argument I think most people have when they try to lower Snake on the tier list. He probably can't win a major event. Actually if you think about it, he shares a huge flaw (in terms of viability) with several mid tier characters (Dedede, Toon Link, Peach, Ike): Meta Knight is legal and these characters get completely stomped out by him.

Snake has it a little easier than any of these guys in the match-up, but he probably isn't going to win anything solo for more or less the same reason they don't.

This applies to every character. Every single character who looks good vs Metaknight eventually starts losing. It then gradually starts looking worse and worse and worse. Ic's and Zss wont be an exception in the future.

But I also think 65-35 is way to much in snake favour.

I don't think so. I think I'm being generous calling some mu's 65-35

 

[Jabejazz]

I main Ganon, but I secondary MK for my disadvantageous matchups. Since I win tourneys being a Ganon main, Ganon is therefore top tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This applies to every character. Every single character who looks good vs Metaknight eventually starts losing. It then gradually starts looking worse and worse and worse. Ic's and Zss wont be an exception in the future.

People have been saying ZSS will start looking worse vs MK literally since 2008 when Snakeee started playing at ECRC or whatever. ZSS still looks just as good (or bad, depending on your perspective) as she did then and it isn't going to change now.

ZSS loses the match-up. It's clear when you watch Salem fight MK players and win that they don't know it as well as he does. That is always true when MK loses, and always will be true. With that said, ZSS has one of the best possible match-ups you can have against MK, because:

1. MK has to actually learn it, rather than just yolo nairfairshuttleloopnado. MK flowchart **** sucks against ZSS. This is important because it means it will take a top-level MK to take out a good ZSS.
2. 40-50% damage punishes are really, really good at making up for any other potential deficiency ZSS might have. Snake is always going to be decent because a read is like 50% damage and he kills crazy early, well ZSS has the same strength and the 4th best dash speed in the game. She can punish almost everything MK does on whiff, so her bait is very potent here.

If anything I'd say ZSS is unique in that her players have kept up reasonably well with the match-up. Heck, it looks like a better match-up today than it did in 2009.

 

[Dekillsage]

People haven't had to learn the zss mu as mk until salem2013 came around.

You can't tell me that things will continue to play out the way they have recently when Mk's learn how to beat her neutral game and learn how to properly edgeguard her.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Worth as a secondary isn't a trait of value, because...?

You didn't respond to this SFP, but I'll elaborate. Let's talk hypothetically here, a game with 4 characters; w, x, y and z. Their match-ups are as follows:

So a tier list at first glance would be...

S TIER
1. W (best MUs overall)

A TIER
2/3/4. X (Two evens, one losing)
2/3/4. Y (One even, one winning, one losing)
2/3/4. Z (Same as Y)

Tournament results would not reflect that tier list, though, because players are allowed to use secondary characters, and Y and Z (characters that have winning MUs) are better secondaries than X (no winning MUs). The real tier list would be:

S: W
A: Y/Z
B: X

And that is why worth as a secondary is a trait of value, thank you very much.

 

[Jabejazz]

I'd take a character with a win matchup and an even one over two evens.
So my personal tier list would actually put X in B tier, just like your "real" tier list, completely disregarding the secondary aspect.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Legit reasoning, don't let me make posts at midnight.

 

[SoulPech]

Legit reasoning, don't let me make posts at midnight.

you took that upon yourself.

 

[FourStar]

People haven't had to learn the zss mu as mk until salem2013 came around.

You can't tell me that things will continue to play out the way they have recently when Mk's learn how to beat her neutral game and learn how to properly edgeguard her.

I think that is why ZSS should be an A or B tier character. not saying one person can change the metagame, but Salem winning Apex 2013 showed how dominant ZSS spacing and aerial game is against high tier. plus they were against top pros from all over the world

 

[pidgezero_one]

never picking up mk because then i'll start to see how worthless it is to use my current roster and the game will be even less fun than it already is

shaky is forever my hero for being the only ness player left not to drop him for mk

 

[FourStar]

never picking up mk because then i'll start to see how worthless it is to use my current roster and the game will be even less fun than it already is

shaky is forever my hero for being the only ness player left not to drop him for mk

LOL why do u like ness so much?

 

[pidgezero_one]

LOL why do u like ness so much?

Because aside from being 6'3", a woman, and having really long brown hair, I kinda look like him.

 

[Delta-cod]

Trashburger?

 

[FourStar]

Because aside from being 6'3", a woman, and having really long brown hair, I kinda look like him.

hahah now it makes more sense.....

 

[SoulPech]

Because aside from being 6'3", a woman, and having really long brown hair, I kinda look like him.

I shall turn that picture into an icon like and . Everytime when a thread gets derailed, I will use this image.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I shall turn that picture into an icon like and . Everytime when a thread gets derailed, I will use this image.

You're doing the Lord's work, son.

 

[Jabejazz]

I shall turn that picture into an icon like and . Everytime when a thread gets derailed, I will use this image.

You have no idea what you just unleashed.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Oh god I'm going to become the mascot of this thread

 

[Vinnie]

Solo IC mains have never even placed Top 8 at a national/international ever.

False

I do not consider the Japanese tournament on the same level of Apex, Genesis, Pound, or any other North American national/international because of the lack of player (compared to our nationals), the lack of character diversity (compared to our nationals), and the lack of both European and American players. ICs always place high besides MKs in Japan, it's no surprise they were able to again in this Japanese National +4 Americans.

I can't believe people believe this tournament was on the same level of any Apex, Genesis, or Pound. It didn't have nearly as many high level players as North American nationals/internationals. I consider this Japanese National on the equivalent of North American regionals with a few guest players. Not on the level of a North American national/international.

So much ignorance, I thought you were smarter than this. Japan is very close in skill with USA. SRT was their largest tourney... yet it's the same difficulty as a USA regional? Someone has way too much American pride... clear bias lol. I think APEX2012/2013 were harder than SRT, but not by much at ALL and SRT is likely the 3rd hardest tourney ever.

So I revise my statement simply to Solo IC mains have never even placed Top 8 at a North American national/international ever. (The largest tournaments in diversity of both players and characters). If you believe the Japanese National was on the same level as Apex 2013 or and prior, I ask you to re-evaluate how many top player were at each tourney then look at ICs results at national/internationals again.

Oh sorry, I forgot the fact that Lain got 3rd at APEX1, 4th at SNES, I got 3rd at SKTAR, 2nd at SRT, and 9B got 5th at SRT.

 

[Tesh]

yea but you used gnw that one match where you only got 1 kill so it doesnt count cuz u didnt believe

 

[DeLux]

I think the distinction is that no solo-IC has been able to top 8 on the larger stage lists (9+ stages)

IIRC even lain would use secondaries back in the day, but I'd have to ask Will to confirm. He'd definitely be the only one so far. Most of the other large scale wins have happened only on Japanese stage lists etc.

 

[B0NK]

False

True. SRT is the only national placing and that tourney didn't have the amount of top players as Pound, Genesis, and Apex.

So much ignorance, I thought you were smarter than this. Japan is very close in skill with USA. SRT was their largest tourney... yet it's the same difficulty as a USA regional? Someone has way too much American pride... clear bias lol. I think APEX2012/2013 were harder than SRT, but not by much at ALL and SRT is likely the 3rd hardest tourney ever.

I never said that the Japanese players were less skilled. SRT did not have nearly as many top players as US nationals/internationals. They had a lot of top players, yes. Still not even close to the amount that show up to US nationals/internationals. They also did not nearly have the same amount of attendance or character diversity as a US national/international. Nor did they use as varied of a stagelist.

I agree that the top player's who attented SRT were very skilled, and are on par if not better than the US'. It's the quantity of top players that attended that make a huge difference in results compared to the tourneys of the size of US nationals/internationals.

Also calling someone character, writing style, or argument ignorant does not make your argument any more convincing. I suggest refraining from using the word completely unless you have some basis to back it up.

Oh sorry, I forgot the fact that Lain got 3rd at APEX1, 4th at SNES, I got 3rd at SKTAR, 2nd at SRT, and 9B got 5th at SRT.

I almost forgot that Lain used MK too. I said solo IC's. IC's are not as viable of a solo character as Olimar, Snake, Diddy, Marth, and ZSS. Debatably others.

 

[Osennecho]

SKTAR was a national...

 

[GOofyGV]

Why calling somebody not a solo IC when the only games he went his sub where games he lost?

 

[Dekillsage]

Why calling somebody not a solo IC when the only games he went his sub where games he lost?

You do this because someone changing characters tells you they wouldn't have been able to win with their main solo, Doesn't matter if they won with that character or not, they switched for a reason.

 

[B0NK]

SKTAR was a national...

It was. SKTAR is a tourney I forgot about.

So to my knowledge, their has been one national in which an ICs placed Top 8 at a national. I probably forgot since that tourney only allowed 6 stages.

 

[GOofyGV]

even so If you win everything because of IC's you still place well because of IC's not because of a sub. If you win every set 2-1 and you lose the one match with your sub you still placed whatever you placed because of your IC's.

EDIT: Please bro SRT was just as national as every tourney you brought up. And the only characters outplacing IC's at apex where MK, Marth, Olimar and ZSS.

 

[B0NK]

Solo character viability is important when judging a character's tier placing. Since they are judge as an individual character, not the character + when you use MK (or another character) every tourney. Their are other character's who have better solo results than ICs, and are more viable on their own. (Snake, Falco, Olimar, ZSS, Marth, and Diddy come to mind).

They could not have placed where they did if they did not switch off of ICs to another character. I am not saying they lost with their secondary, I'm strictly speaking of times you could not win without your secondary.

Being able to use more than one character is a great trait of many great top players. It is not a trait that shows off how viable a character is when comparing to other characters, which is what the tier list does.

EDIT: Please bro SRT was just as national as every tourney you brought up. And the only characters outplacing IC's at apex where MK, Marth, Olimar and ZSS.

I disagree, and have already said why. And yes, I believe MK, Marth, Olimar, and ZSS are much more viable as a solo character.

 

[GOofyGV]

yeah but why would you still come up with results that got older? We are in a diffrent meta game. If you Consider the most recent tourneys in both USA and Japan. You will see that 9B and Vinnie place consistant at every tourney they attend. They also place solid top 16 at Apex Which is something you shouldn't forget. Where was Diddy at Apex? Where was Falco? DEHF got 9th I give you that. Where was Snake?
You should consider the current meta game more then the older ones And the last international didn't show a bad rep for IC's at all.

 

[B0NK]

yeah but why would you still come up with results that got older? We are in a diffrent meta game. If you Consider the most recent tourneys in both USA and Japan. You will see that 9B and Vinnie place consistant at every tourney they attend. They also place solid top 16 at Apex Which is something you shouldn't forget. Where was Diddy at Apex? Where was Falco? DEHF got 9th I give you that. Where was Snake?
You should consider the current meta game more then the older ones And the last international didn't show a bad rep for IC's at all.

And other characters are still doing better, even in today's metagame, than ICs are. Which is why I disagree when others say they are the 2nd best in the game, since not even the current metagame's results reflect this. (I believe they are the 5th best character behind MK, Olimar, Snake, and Falco. Being just above Diddy. I base this off of their solo viability under an Apex ruleset and their top tier match-up spread.)

IC's have shown on a limited stagelist, they may very well be top 2 in the game. The tier list is made with the assumption of Apex's ruleset though.

People are overrating ICs, in my opinion. They are a very strong character, I put them at 5th, but never at 2nd unless we are talking about a very limited stagelist.

 

[GOofyGV]

And other characters are still doing better, even in today's metagame, than ICs are. Which is why I disagree when others say they are the 2nd best in the game, since not even the current metagame's results reflect this.

IC's have shown on a limited stagelist, they may very well be top 2 in the game. The tier list is made with the assumption of Apex's ruleset though.

That's very true but if you look at Apex 2013 results as an example.
I'm not even going to bring up MK
IC's got 9th and 13th (Not counting ESAm cuze not solo IC but he also got 13th so you could count that as well)
Diddy got 17th 3 times iirc
Snake got 13th and uhm?
Falco got 9th
olimar got 8th and I believe 25th
Marth got 5th, 7th and 25th
ZSS got 1st
Pikachu got 13th but ESAM also used IC's

If I look at this I honestly can't Agree with you :$
IC's overal had a better placing then Snake and Diddy and Falco. and had more rep in top 16 then every single character except for MK and Marth.

 

[pidgezero_one]

We already have a tier list of character use combinations, it's called the swf rankings