Official BBR Tier List v7

[pidgezero_one]

Yo like my posts homies I need to become more famous on smashboards!!!

I'm just after the achievements personally

 

[Shadocat]

To sorta get this back on topic, I think kirby should be higher.

Hes basically top tier with mk's nado or faclo's lasers

 

[pidgezero_one]

Kirby is unbeatable on PS1 which is a legal stage everywhere but japan. Should be top of mid tier since he's a better jigglypuff and jigglypuff is already pretty good

 

[infiniteV115]

Otori used to main Kirby
Therefore, Kirby used to be top tier in Japan

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Do you know what matchup is fun? Pit vs Diddy Kong.

I have a question. I've seen a lot of Wario mains play and when they're facing Diddy Kong and/or any character with a projectile why don't they ever eat them? It confuzles me

 

[NickRiddle]

I'm convinced Wario players forget that bite is a stupid broken move.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm convinced Wario players forget that bite is a stupid broken move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP_95WHv8bY

 

[infiniteV115]

I've always felt like Reflex and Seibrik were the only Warios that don't underuse Bite
Ninja'd

 

[Tesh]

Bite is only good against characters that actually need to shield against Wario instead of throwing disjoints in his face.

+it does 8 damage and sets up for nothing, much like a retreating bair/fair/tire toss

 

[ぱみゅ]

It adds pressure to an opponent in a platform as it's A ****ING AERIAL GRAB while still being pretty safe.
Not many characters can juggle like that.

 

[Tesh]

if someone is going to sit on a platform shielding, a move that pushes or pokes well is more rewarding. like clap or dair

i dont see people shielding on platforms much anymore though, i think thanks to MGM, people realize you are better off trying to get off the platform

 

[Shaya]

Wario's bite actually combos into things Mainly dash grab IIRC.

I wonder how good a Powershield -> uncharged waft (100% trip rate) would be.

 

[Tesh]

lol isnt it like -50 on hit because of the animation he goes through with the giggling and head scratching?

 

[Dekillsage]

Do you know what matchup is fun? Pit vs Diddy Kong.

I have a question. I've seen a lot of Wario mains play and when they're facing Diddy Kong and/or any character with a projectile why don't they ever eat them? It confuzles me

Mostly because he can potentially get hit for doing it. Wario grabbing a banana and then jumping for days seems like the smarter thing to do anyways but I don't main wario so idk

if someone is going to sit on a platform shielding, a move that pushes or pokes well is more rewarding. like clap or dair

i dont see people shielding on platforms much anymore though, i think thanks to MGM, people realize you are better off trying to get off the platform

It's an airgrab dude. No reason to shield pressure or poke people when you can always punish someone on a platform who didn't jump right away.
Same reason why diddy kongs side B is good more or less.

 

[Shaya]

lol isnt it like -50 on hit because of the animation he goes through with the giggling and head scratching?

You're probably right... hahaha
Maybe because when it happens (once every 100+? matches) you never react to it properly

 

[Tesh]

well unfortunately, any timely panic reaction to the trip will result in hitting him with the getup or standing up before his animation is over. I do wonder if its possible to get close enough to trade hits with a jab, ending your animation and knocking them down at the same time....

diddy kong's side B has range (approaching air grab) and mixups with kicks, footstooling and a waaaaaaaaaay more favorable release trajectory (down) in most cases

bite has a pathetic disjoint and no mobility, so its nowhere near as useful as klaw, aerudo, monkey flip, inhale or egg lay.

and bite combos into like 2 things. dash grab at super low percents on SOME people (percents so low that uair or dair would get you a 30-50 combo easily anyway) and glide tossing options depending on DI.

 

[Player-1]

diddy's side-b sucks, grabs on frame 19

 

[infiniteV115]

if someone is going to sit on a platform shielding, a move that pushes or pokes well is more rewarding. like clap or dair

It's a higher reward but also a higher risk (for dair anyway) because if the whole thing gets shielded you can be punished easily
And uair doesn't really shield poke against a good opponent above you unless their shield is already small. So assuming you're not going for the shield push or the read on the roll or something with uair, Bite's a pretty good option.

 

[SoulPech]

OH...never mind then.

 

[Luco]

Spoiler

Maybe you're happy with losing to MK with Wolf, but many know that if the MK knows the match up, to any match up, the MK should always win.

Sorry to bring this up from 10 pages ago but I was away a few days and have been desperately trying to keep up. I just want to address this point. And ONLY this one point lol.

This is a wrong statement. From the bones. A MU ratio is meant to say something about who will win the MU. That is, if the MU is 40:60, then the losing character should at least be winning 4 out of 10 times. It's not favourable from them but they are meant to win some of those matches. Even -2 territory, which is around the 65:35 mark assumes that 7 out of 20 games will be won from the losing opponent. To say any MU that the MK knows he should NEVER lose is just flat out wrong and saying that belies everything people like Salem and the rest of us work our heads off to achieve. MK may be overcentralising, ok, he may warrant a ban, ok (personally I am anti-ban and i'm a LT main but I respect pro-ban and their opinions)... but to say he should never lose? Don't blow it up to be something it's not. I don't freakin' care if he won 70% of his matches, 80% even. But Brawl is not so unbalanced as to be 'oh he lost? Gee wiz better look for the one or two mistakes that tell us he was playing the MU incorrectly!'. MK is not Akuma. He is not Ivan. MK is MK and MK is (at the very least somewhat) beatable.

Whether him being too hard to beat or not is a different matter. That's what decides whether he's ban worthy or not. But don't sacrifice your argument, your GOOD argument for the sake of over-exaggerating and blowing it up. The simple fact of the matter is, you CAN'T play a character perfectly. It is literally impossible, to play perfectly is to be at the level of TAS, the level where ICs are silly and can always save Nana and people will tech off the air itself (lol, yes that's a slight exaggeration). An MK player is going to make mistakes. To say a MK can't lose is just theoretics but the practicality is that both players make mistakes. Asking the other player to not make enough mistakes as to lose may indeed constitute MK being broken but again that's not the point i'm trying to make. Just...

Just... my gosh. He's not Kayaba from SAO lol... he's... ugh...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VOtACLllqg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBGffJfBkd0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2XhCi4JJ_M
As other examples, though the vids aren't there for them, you get things like the first match of Tyrant and Mekos at SKTAR last year and things like that. When a LT main has an even record with a high (top player actually: Tyrant was in USA vs. the world at Apex), it means he's not unbeatable.

Remember, mistakes are made in those matches but like... anyone can make mistakes.

So i'm ending my rant to that one line. From what i was reading your beforehand argument was fine, good even... but I say a big no to that line and anyone who's seen a top MK beaten by a non-MK main should too... which is everyone who saw GFs at Apex 2013.

Sorry.

Anyway what's up for discussion atm guys?

Ah. On the rare occasion where I play Wario I usually mix-up bite with other stuff. I personally find it better than anyone else's grab moves because if the person tries to spot-dodge it (which is generally considered a decent option), you end up seeing right through it.

 

[GOofyGV]

@ Luco

How Jigglypuff should be S tier
How Bowser-IC's should be even
and how diddy's sideB sucks

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm convinced Wario players forget that bite is a stupid broken move.

Peach can only beat it with a well spaced Fair or to hit him in a way he doesn't eat or bite her around his mouth.

Tis very silly.

 

[bubbaking]

(<__<)

Most MUs between chars that matter in this game can be learned reliably (as in, they're not worse than -2). For those few that can't be, I already said you should pick a secondary. You were the one who tried to use a 'I don't want a counterpicking environment' argument, as I pointed out above. Also, you misinterpreted my statements. My point was that every other fighting game with as many chars as Brawl has requires everyone to either learn bad MUs or pick up a secondary in order to be wholly successful in the face of the entire cast. Nobody has 100% good MUs. You said MK is the only "fair" character. I said that MK is actually extremely "unfair" because he is practically the only character in major FG history to break this rule (without being banned). Even the Melee spacees don't have that kind of MU spread. It is indeed "unhealthy" for any one character to completely circumvent the competition of the game by getting a completely advantageous MU spread (meaning every single other character is NOT getting that kind of MU spread, which is unfair and somewhat noncompetitive).

(>__>)

Sorry Bubba, but the amount of unsupported assumptions, missed context, and contradictions in that post are simply to overwhelming to respond to. Feel free to hold onto your assumptions, but I strongly disagree.

(-__-) That's BS! You're just being hella, hella lazy. There weren't any contradictions in that post at all. I even tried to pick 'em out myself to give you a case, but my post simply doesn't have enough points in it for it be contradictory at all. Were you just making all of that up?

Like, I feel that you're just refusing to reply because you simply don't know how to do so (smartly), despite the fact that I responded to your entire argument. If you "strongly disagree", then I take it that you think that MK isn't an unfair character with his 100% winning MUs.

Unsupported assumptions? Like what? Could you even point out one? Do you think my statement that the best chars in other FGs have bad MUs is an unsupported assumption (despite my usage of an example)? Or do you just feel like saying my post is full of bad things that you don't feel like proving?

Swords or items means even or better. Except for Link, you can trade him for wolf

DDD has a hammer... <__<

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

DDD has a hammer... <__<

Hammers aren't swords.

According to Fire Emblem, Hammers are Axes.

And Swords beat Axes in FE.

Which is why ICs lose to characters with Swords.

It all makes sense now.

 

[Jabejazz]

Hammers aren't swords.

According to Fire Emblem, Hammers are Axes.

And Swords beat Axes in FE.

Which is why ICs lose to characters with Swords.

Recent discovery shows that ICs hammers are in fact over-sized microphones used by Phil Collins during his show in Paris in 1997.

 

[bubbaking]

But do you know what they all are in FE? Items! Weapon items, to be exact. DDD is now an Ice Climber.

 

[GOofyGV]

Dedede+1 IC's obviously because he has a bigger hammer.

 

[Jabejazz]

This thread would be diamonds if more people thought like you.

 

[GOofyGV]

This thread would be diamonds if more people thought like you.

Ofcourse, I'm awesome

 

[Luco]

Bubba, what fighting games are you thinking of here in particular? I'm very genuinely curious. =)

 

[bubbaking]

Well I already cited SSF IV: AE 2012. The #1 best character in that game is Seth and he has about 4-5 losing MUs. This applies to every Top Tier character in that game. It's pretty common for FGs with a large character roster to have at least one losing MU for everyone. It's way too hard to balance the roster so that characters aren't messed up by at least one gimmick that's out there. That's why MK is so extraordinarily unfair in Brawl. He has no losing MUs, and arguably no even ones either. I'll argue that Melee is nearly as imbalanced as Brawl any day of the week, but even its spacees have at least two even MUs each (Falco definitely has way more, and Fox might as well).

The funny thing is that there ARE characters in other FGs that completely demolish the entire roster without fail. Such characters exist in SSF II, SF III: 3rd Strike, Eternal Fighter Zero, etc, but those characters are always banned. It makes sense from both a fair, competitive PoV and an overcentralization PoV.

 

[da K.I.D.]

what source are you using to say that seth is the best character in AE, because I dont think ive ever heard that before. im more of a marvel head than a SF player, but i was under the impression that Akuma was pretty much the top dog right now. and while he has a number of 5-5s I cant really think of a character off the top of my head who is stated to beat him, though i think there is one or two.

Yea, what SFP said pretty much.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I thought Akuma or Cammy were considered the best in SSF4:AE with Seth at a distant 3rd or 4th.

Like, last I heard, Cammy was considered to be total bull**** status with 6/4s on pretty much everyone, but she still loses to 3-4 characters. lol

Cammy beats Akuma, AFAIK.

 

[Dekillsage]

Yeah Akuma and Cammy are way better than Seth is now. Regardless of who's the best every top tier character in that game has bad match ups.
MetaKnight has no bad match ups and counterpicks that make him even better against the entire cast.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Yeah Akuma and Cammy are way better than Seth is now. Regardless of who's the best every top tier character in that game has bad match ups.
MetaKnight has no bad match ups and counterpicks that make him even better against the entire cast.

Hasn't this been known since 2008.
It's not going to change, nothing we can do.
Live with the bat!
Play baseball!
Play with the bat.

Nah, play with Flaoc.

 

[Dekillsage]

Hasn't this been known since 2008.
It's not going to change, nothing we can do.
Live with the bat!
Play baseball!
Play with the bat.

Nah, play with Flaoc.

It didn't change in 08 because we didn't know how overpowered he really was and we wanted to give the game time to evolve.
When that time came everyone started saying it was too late.

Done with you guys

 

[1PokeMastr]

Because you already lost.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

I think Pit deserves to be higher than he is now. I would say he's C tier. Right infront of toon link. We must be playing him wrong if he's so high on the japanese tier list

 

[Peachy-Desu]

I think we can all come to the conclusion that MK clearly knows that you must SPIN TO WIN~!

Also smash 4 will be coming out soon so let's all just be happy we don't need to worry about brawl much longer.

 

[B0NK]

I think Pit deserves to be higher than he is now. I would say he's C tier. Right infront of toon link. We must be playing him wrong if he's so high on the japanese tier list

Neither of those characters should be in C tier