Official BBR Tier List v7

[Shaya]

While I'm pro-ban by virtue of long-term goals, I'm probably the most anti-ban of the pro-bans.
I don't think Meta Knight should be in doubles, at all. Doubles is so sickeningly centralised around MK, and his complete removal results in nothing like it for those who experience it (Whobo, probably the hypest doubles brackets you'll ever see).
In singles he's beatable. And I also appreciate what people going far with MK has brought to us; a lot more option rich game where we come to realise all the small nuances of brawl taper off some of the extreme injustices of Meta Knight's move set. MK doesn't have an aerial jump dodge, he doesn't have a crouch, he's denied two of the smartest/sexiest ways players space and whatnot at top level, and that's only the start of it. I think we nearly all agree he needs to be "nerfed" to kept fair. But MK is still a beautiful character that takes a lot of skill (technical / mental) at high/top level. We would likely have a better metagame without his existence in Singles, but he's given so much to every high tier character over these years and has kept the die hard try hards from quitting as they achieve new and amazing things with their characters.

If this was all started afresh, the best approach would be to promote the existence of both equally rather than trying to enforce a one way or the highway tactic. The one which had the most competitive merit would've eventually retained popularity. While MK-banned arguably didn't get the chance it deserved, it's almost objective about which one had the best competitive merit due to its longevity.

Yes the top players in the NA brawl scene are very inclusive of each other and warped what happened in their favour. However, no one had/has the balls to run an MK banned tournament series anyway.

 

[B0NK]

Yes the top players in the NA brawl scene are very inclusive of each other and warped what happened in their favour. However, no one had/has the balls to run an MK banned tournament series anyway.

Multiple were hosted in NJ/NY, the land of the MKs, with great success. They are gone now due to TOs hosting tournies with rulesets for their friends or themselves, not for the community.

If I was to start fresh, I'd have rulesets voted upon by the attendees, as I have said so many times in this thread before.

I don't think anyone is dismissing the skill it takes to place with MK (especially with all the MK dittos they play). More so that it's been over-centralizing to a degree in which MK is ban-worthy. MK is just that much better than the rest of the cast that you either have to pick him or pick another character and hope the MK players don't know the match up or recognize the situations you put him in. (In singles and doubles).

I would love to see tourneys, even now, that host capped MK-banned side tourneys beside the MK-legal ones. Or that MK-banned tourneys were held more often. I know that MK-Legal tourneys are here to stay but MK-banned ones have never got a fair chance, like you stated. It's clear MK is ban-worthy to the majority, he's only still here because of TOs personal bias, not because of the community's majority opinion.

tl;dr Yes the TOs need to grow a pair and start hosting tourneys with polls. Overall I agree with Shaya, though don't see it as a good reason for MK to be legal.

 

[Seagull Joe]

The opinion of peasants are invalid, sorry.

P.S nobody likes seagulls

Quest in disguise?^

 

[pidgezero_one]

BBrawl can't be standard because it's a mod, which creates significant logistic issues, and requires resources beyond just the console and game, which many players do not have access to.

It's why a no tripping code isn't standard, even though it's the one thing that the whole community would agree that improves the game.

Seriously, I don't know why this isn't just common sense already. Also hello sponsors.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Quest in disguise?^

Who? I'm just your normal everyday space breakfast

 

[pidgezero_one]

If all the MK mains did this much work for every match up they played, they would get better and never lose to any character. But they don't put this much work into any match up except the MK match up.

You have a disadvantage match-up against MK like everyone else, and you still believe you can beat MK that knows the Wolf match up? Have you ever even played an MK main that knows the Wolf match-up as well as you know the MK match up? You truly believe Wolf/Non-MK character main for bad match ups will ever win a National? Or even that a Wolf can defeat all the MKs it faces?

Maybe you're happy with losing to MK with Wolf, but many know that if the MK knows the match up, to any match up, the MK should always win.

The only way to get better and learn from our mistakes against MK is realizing our mistake was going any other character besides MK against MK.

You know, whenever people dismiss the pro-ban argument by saying "learn the matchup", they're omitting the more important half of that statement ("and hope your opponent hasn't")

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

"learn the matchup and hope your opponent hasn't"

That's the backbone of my strategy in Melee.

I'm still working on the first part though.

 

[pidgezero_one]

And to implement MK banned tournaments to get statistical evidence as to whether a different character would centralize the meta would require at least a year to advance that new meta for it to not be utterly horrible. So it's pointless and I'm done. Back to college work/yelling at Engineering problems when they don't go how they are supposed to.

No johns. I'm a 4th year engineer in the middle of exams and I used engineering to calculate a troll tier list.

Yes the top players in the NA brawl scene are very inclusive of each other and warped what happened in their favour. However, no one had/has the balls to run an MK banned tournament series anyway.

I don't think that's an entirely fair assessment. When nobody wants to show up to your MK banned tourney, the venue fee comes out of your own pocket. I'm not about to ask anyone to take one for the team if I'm not willing to do it myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14cs6rSta8c&t=19m17s

Remove the LGL!!!!!!!!!!!

i commentated dis
he he h e

 

[B0NK]

I don't think that's an entirely fair assessment. When nobody wants to show up to your MK banned tourney, the venue fee comes out of your own pocket. I'm not about to ask anyone to take one for the team if I'm not willing to do it myself.

Reason for the TO's to hold a poll for the attendees. So the TO has the security that more people would show up to the voted ruleset over the other one.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Reason for the TO's to hold a poll for the attendees. So the TO has the security that more people would show up to the voted ruleset over the other one.

I don't know, that sounds about as reliable as people confirming on Facebook.

 

[Tristan_win]

Serious question, why is Pit so high on the tier list? I honestly don't know a lot about Pit but all the characters around him I've actually felt threat by even on low scale of things however I've never felt threaten by a Pit user.

 

[B0NK]

I don't know, that sounds about as reliable as people confirming on Facebook.

It worked for Raptor's events in LI, NY. Majority voted for MK-Banned and Apex Ruleset, he got the same numbers as any other tourney in the area. It may only have the security of confirming a FB event, but at least it has majority opinion backing it up.

Also if security is an issue and you're hosting a big tourney with a large venue, online pre-registration would be your friend as a TO.

I've hosted tourneys myself. I know the cost of a venue and the work the TO puts into a tourney. Hosting rulesets that the majority of players want in a good location has shown the greatest success for me personally. I'm not basing my suggestion without any TO-ing experience. I just don't have the financial means or time to find a venue, plan, and host a tourney myself at this time.

 

[Dre89]

I don't understand why anti-banners are saying MK should be legal because he's beatable. I thought the pro argument was always that he centralises the game as he has no counters, in terms of both characters and stages.

If you had to be literally unbeatable by a character other than yourself to be ban-worthy, then no pokemon would have ever been sent to Ubers.

Inb4smashisntpokemon

 

[pidgezero_one]

It worked for Raptor's events in LI, NY. Majority voted for MK-Banned and Apex Ruleset, he got the same numbers as any other tourney in the area. It may only have the security of confirming a FB event, but at least it has majority opinion backing it up.

Also if security is an issue and you're hosting a big tourney with a large venue, online pre-registration would be your friend as a TO.

I've hosted tourneys myself. I know the cost of a venue and the work the TO puts into a tourney. Hosting rulesets that the majority of players want in a good location has shown the greatest success for me personally. I'm not basing my suggestion without any TO-ing experience. I just don't have the financial means or time to find a venue, plan, and host a tourney myself at this time.

I don't know about your region or anyone else's, but that would never work in my region. Last time we had an online pre-reg tournament (biggest ever held in Canada iirc), we dropped the necessity of the pre-reg because too many people complained. Hell, I've let people from my own region use my credit card countless times to pre-reg for tournaments. TOs go into major debt here. Maybe I should let people borrow my forecasting textbook.

I don't understand why anti-banners are saying MK should be legal because he's beatable. I thought the pro argument was always that he centralises the game as he has no counters, in terms of both characters and stages.

If you had to be literally unbeatable by a character other than yourself to be ban-worthy, then no pokemon would have ever been sent to Ubers.

Inb4smashisntpokemon

Pokemon and SSBB analogies are pretty tight. They're both basically games of Chess anyway ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[B0NK]

I don't know about your region or anyone else's, but that would never work in my region. Last time we had an online pre-reg tournament (biggest ever held in Canada iirc), we dropped the necessity of the pre-reg because too many people complained. Hell, I've let people from my own region use my credit card countless times to pre-reg for tournaments. TOs go into major debt here. Maybe I should let people borrow my forecasting textbook.

I assume the same would happen in my region. It's why I would just trust the poll, since the majority voted for it, and trust the players I know personally to go to the event. If more players voted for MK-legal, I'd host MK legal and vice-versa for MK banned. It's a simple fact the the majority prefer that ruleset, which means a majority of players in my region will attend.

On a national scale, it's clear that credit cards + in person registration is the way to go when it comes to business. Apex even banned double MK after people registered since that was the "majority opinion" in the host's eyes.

I'm just stating a poll has less bias than a TO making that assessment themselves and overall would be more supportive of the community, instead of for personal bias towards a few friends or the TO's personal bias.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I'm just stating a poll has less bias than a TO making that assessment themselves and overall would be more supportive of the community, instead of for personal bias towards a few friends or the TO's personal bias.

I don't disagree with that, but either way neither method is extremely reliable

 

[B0NK]

I don't disagree with that, but either way neither method is extremely reliable

I see the polling method as more reliable than possibly hosting tourneys that appeals to the minority opinion. It's simply good business to host a tourney with a ruleset more people in your region prefer.

Polling is an easy way to get an idea of what your region wants. Another would be hosting a discussion of the ruleset for your region in the regional boards or regional FB groups.

But as it stands right now, TOs are avoiding asking about MK-Banned rulesets because of their personal bias in favor of themselves and a few friends.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I see the polling method as more reliable than possibly hosting tourneys that appeals to the minority opinion. It's simply good business to host a tourney with a ruleset more people in your region prefer.

Polling is an easy way to get an idea of what your region wants. Another would be hosting a discussion of the ruleset for your region in the regional boards or regional FB groups.

But as it stands right now, TOs are avoiding asking about MK-Banned rulesets because of their personal bias in favor of themselves and a few friends.

I'm not disagreeing that it gets a good idea of what your region wants, because that's absolutely true and beats the hell out of personal bias. Whether or not your region will commit to what they say they want is a different story. (I mean, look at how many times I've said "I want to get better at Smash" ) Point being that this issue is probably more complex than such a dichotomy allows answers for.

 

[infiniteV115]

You know something is wrong when XxJiGgLyPuFf_DuDe_420xX is participating in some actual discussion

 

[pidgezero_one]

You know something is wrong when XxJiGgLyPuFf_DuDe_420xX is participating in some actual discussion

But how can it be wrong... if it feels so right?

 

[B0NK]

I'm not disagreeing that it gets a good idea of what your region wants, because that's absolutely true and beats the hell out of personal bias. Whether or not your region will commit to what they say they want is a different story. (I mean, look at how many times I've said "I want to get better at Smash" ) Point being that this issue is probably more complex than such a dichotomy allows answers for.

Can't say I disagree, I know people can be flaky. But there's no way to know until TOs at least try to bring up ruleset discussions with their respective regions. (Discussions about MK-legality, the stage list, etc).

I'm just asking that TOs give it a try, possibly setting a new precedent for how the community decides on rulesets.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Can't say I disagree, I know people can be flaky. But there's no way to know until TOs at least try to bring up ruleset discussions with their respective regions. (Discussions about MK-legality, the stage list, etc).

I'm just asking that TOs give it a try.

I honestly think that this should go a step further than MK ban vs no MK ban - people should be polled on options like "soft MK ban" (MK banned unless both players agree to have him allowed during their individual set) and M2K's side event idea (players can choose to ban 1 character from their opponent's roster like they would ban a stage). I personally like the second one a lot since MK mains aren't the only ones who risk losing their main, but maybe I'm just biased from my never-ending character roster

 

[B0NK]

Those are reasonable suggestions for discussion, whether I agree with either of them or not. (Hint: I don't).

But if the majority of my region would want to try those rulesets at a tourney, even as a side event, I'd be open to it.

 

[Ishiey]

Serious question, why is Pit so high on the tier list? I honestly don't know a lot about Pit but all the characters around him I've actually felt threat by even on low scale of things however I've never felt threaten by a Pit user.

IMO, it's because he has decent MUs with the top 10 (ZSS and above) without any auto-lose MUs or prominent stage/tactics issues. Looking at the rest in his current tier, the lack of borderline auto-lose MUs vs those in the tiers above is pretty nice, even though his MK MU is still meh. Maybe most Pit users are bad, idk, that's probably an issue for most characters in his current tier lol. Earth from Japan is legit as **** though, I can guarantee you that much.

 

[Tesh]

I honestly think that this should go a step further than MK ban vs no MK ban - people should be polled on options like "soft MK ban" (MK banned unless both players agree to have him allowed during their individual set) and M2K's side event idea (players can choose to ban 1 character from their opponent's roster like they would ban a stage). I personally like the second one a lot since MK mains aren't the only ones who risk losing their main, but maybe I'm just biased from my never-ending character roster

funny i remember making a thread just like that on the competitive forum and mods closed it

 

[bubbaking]

Cant speak for every region, but I know ours always hated those stages. I think it was mostly pro-ban advocates saying ppl only wanted the stages banned bc of MK, and then became surprised when the community wanted them gone anyways. Keep in mind theres an entire country thats likes using just 3 stages, I dont think its hard to believe that some peeps are inclined to advocate for less stages when they can.

This is pretty much how LI felt about PS2 and Brinstar when the Impacts weren't including it in their stagelists, even with MK banned. I personally am fine with Brinstar but not with PS2, and MK has absolutely no gauge whatsoever on this opinion.

1) Mushroomy Kingdom, Mario Kart, Metal Gear Solid, Pikmin Stage and Eldin are all ridiculously dumb stages that would have been banned anyways. That is such a lame argument...

I actually see nothing wrong with Metal Gear Solid's Shadow Moses Island being a legal stage if CGs didn't exist. It doesn't have the blastzone camping problem that Mushroomy, Kart, Pikmin, and Eldin would have because the walls come back up to force regular gameplay to resume. The stage would be a strong CP, sure, but it wouldn't really be banworthy, IMO. I can actually believe Jebus' postulation that DDD was a major contributor to no one even considering that stage legal right now.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

I actually see nothing wrong with Metal Gear Solid's Shadow Moses Island being a legal stage if CGs didn't exist. It doesn't have the blastzone camping problem that Mushroomy, Kart, Pikmin, and Eldin would have because the walls come back up to force regular gameplay to resume. The stage would be a strong CP, sure, but it wouldn't really be banworthy, IMO. I can actually believe Jebus' postulation that DDD was a major contributor to no one even considering that stage legal right now.

Shadow Moses would absolutely be banned regardless of the existence of Dedede. Walls and walkoffs are highly abusable by much of the cast (even in Melee, permanent walls and walkoffs have always been a strong criterion for banning a stage). Additionally, there is no offstage game at all on Shadow Moses, and the stage creates an overcentralisation on vertical kill moves and teching. Characters will also be living ridiculously long when the walls are up, and then dying ridiculously early when they're down.

 

[bubbaking]

That's nothing beyond strong CP material. Walls and walk-offs are present all over Delfino and they were present on RC when it was legal (which was banned because of MK, not the stage itself, I believe). Melee and Brawl are two totally different Smash games. Don't compare them. Even so, Melee-FC had Mushroom Kingdom II legal, but again, we're not comparing games here. Not every stage needs an offstage game. Nobody ever said that needs to be a necessary criterion for competitive Smash. A "centralization on vertical kill moves" is, again, just strong CP material. Every character in the game has vertical KO moves, I think, but some chars have an easier time killing vertically than others. It's like how heavy chars live longer on large stages and strong chars kill faster on small stages; these are traits that CPs tend to favor. That's why they're CPs. There is literally nothing wrong with the stage outside of walls to be infinited on.

That was the worst analogy ever. Whether or not a character should be legal in competitive gaming (which involves the handling of people's money) is not simply a matter of personal preference.

As a matter of fact, it is such a matter...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I see the polling method as more reliable than possibly hosting tourneys that appeals to the minority opinion. It's simply good business to host a tourney with a ruleset more people in your region prefer.

Polling is an easy way to get an idea of what your region wants. Another would be hosting a discussion of the ruleset for your region in the regional boards or regional FB groups.

But as it stands right now, TOs are avoiding asking about MK-Banned rulesets because of their personal bias in favor of themselves and a few friends.

"Avoiding?" They straight-up don't care about anyone but top players, who either play MK or are friends with the top MK players.

 

[bubbaking]

Hmm, just from the top of my head there's Anti, Nairo, Ally, Rain, Kakera, Dojo, FOW, Nakat, Holynightmare, and Seibrik that have shown that they can still compete in an MK banned environment or are known to have a very high level secondary/former main.

And the only ones that haven't (to my knowledge) are M2K, Tyrant, and ZeRo and Otori.

Zero used to main Peach a while back. M2K used to main DDD. I used to watch a lot of his matches way back when I was just deciding to pick up DDD as a secondary (even before the MK ban) to my MK primary. Also, I think you forgot 9B in that he has proven he can do extremely well in an MK-banned or an MK-legal environment.

he's denied two of the smartest/sexiest ways players space and whatnot at top level

What are those two things? I know one of them is projectile.

 

[Kewkky]

Don't compare Brawl and Melee? What else is there to compare to? It's not like Brawl's a religion and Melee's a way to bake a cake, both are games with a TON of things in common. If anything, the only games to have as much in common with either of them, is each other.

Also, the BBR didn't unban him. The community itself did. Once the URC disbanded, everyone just started doing things how they wanted to, and it just so happens that the APEX where Otori won happened shortly after. I remember clearly how there were people posting everywhere about how they wanted MK unbanned so they could keep having the japanese come to our tournaments, and how "if Otori can do it, so can everyone else! Stop being scrubs and learn the matchup!". I was in the BBR back then too, so I know how we totally did not unban him. Hell, we don't even make rulesets anymore, and haven't done so ever since the URC was created, and that was a good while ago. The only things people look at that we make are things regarding tier lists, and MU charts, and even then most people just troll all over them. In fact, has anyone even seen a notice about how the BBR officially unbanned MK?

I just wanted to point out a couple of things after reading both Coney's and bubbaking's posts.

@ Shaya: Items, projectiles, zair, ZSS's dsmash...?

 

[Omega Tyrant]

That's nothing beyond strong CP material. Walls and walk-offs are present all over Delfino and they were present on RC when it was legal (which was banned because of MK, not the stage itself, I believe). Melee and Brawl are two totally different Smash games. Don't compare them. Even so, Melee-FC had Mushroom Kingdom II legal, but again, we're not comparing games here. Not every stage needs an offstage game. Nobody ever said that needs to be a necessary criterion for competitive Smash. A "centralization on vertical kill moves" is, again, just strong CP material. Every character in the game has vertical KO moves, I think, but some chars have an easier time killing vertically than others. It's like how heavy chars live longer on large stages and strong chars kill faster on small stages; these are traits that CPs tend to favor. That's why they're CPs. There is literally nothing wrong with the stage outside of walls to be infinited on.

The walls/walkoffs on Delfino and RC are not permanent (nor are the walls on those stages as significant as those on Shadow Moses), you can't compare them to Shadow Moses. And if Delfino/RC was stuck in the part of the stages with walls/walkoffs, they would have certainly been banned long ago.

Melee and Brawl being different Smash games is irrelevant, as walls/walkoffs create the same issues in both games, and isn't a problem restricted to only Dedede (who doesn't exist in the former game, yet people saw the major gameplay issues with stages that have permanent walls/walkoffs, which is why I pointed out Melee has had those stages banned for a long time, and why Dedede can't be blamed for stages like Shadow Moses getting banned).

Offstage play is a vital dimension of Smash, and removing it takes out an important part of what makes Smash the game it is (while limiting the competitive depth of the game). It also removes additional ways to KO people (edgeguarding/gimping and KO via bottom blast line).

Vertical kill moves don't just have a mere advantage on Shadow Moses (like on Halberd), but are pretty much the only way to kill reliably on Shadow Moses. A proper CP stage may make killing one way easier, but wouldn't restrict you to only being able to KO one way on the stage.

"Strong CP material" gives certain characters significant advantages, not break the game and change the way the game is played.

And if you want to harp on Dedede's wall infinite as being the only reason Shadow Moses is banned, many other characters have wall infinites and wall locks/chain throws over 100% (hence the major problem with perma walls).

 

[bubbaking]

@Kewkky: Yes, don't compare Brawl and Melee because each game is its own unique, individual game. Aspects that would make a stage ridiculous in Melee don't necessarily apply to Brawl and vice versa. If that wasn't the case, do you know how many stages Brawl has legal right now that simply wouldn't be acceptable? Brawl and Melee have things in common because they're both Smash games, but using that as a basis is like saying Akuma should be banned in every SF because he's the only character with aerial fireballs. You don't HAVE to compare Brawl to anything, to answer your second question. Btw, Melee has more in common with SSB 64 than it has in common with Brawl.

The bottom line is that you can't just come in here and say "even in Melee, permanent walls and walkoffs have always been a strong criterion for banning a stage," as if that's a feasible argument as to why a certain stage shouldn't be legal in Brawl. That's just ridiculous. Brawl doesn't have two furry animals who can camp the blastzones with ridiculous lasers and then waveshine you to your death or pull off some other ridiculous feat if you manage to approach them from the highly disadvantageous position they've managed to place you in.

About your second paragraph, you're actually somewhat incorrect. MK-banned tourneys started coming out in full force (especially on LI, where I lived at the time) after APEX 2012. In fact, everyone was saying that APEX would fittingly be the LAST major MK-legal tourney ever, which made sense seeing as how it was at the very start of 2012 and could have been seen as a way of 'closing off' the old year of MKs and starting off the new one without them. Most people also know that the BBR neither banned nor unbanned MK. The BBR-endorsed committee known as the URC banned him. What bothered some people, like myself and some others that I know, was how you would lose out on certain benefits if your tourney didn't follow the guidelines that the URC's recommended ruleset had put forth. You wanna know another highly controversial 'recommended ruleset' that was put out around the same time as the URC's one but with MUCH greater success? The MBR's Melee Recommended Ruleset. That's right! The MBR made the bold move to ban every CP except for the one that favored the spacees (the two best chars in the game) more than any other char, thus making it so that the game's only CP really only made them stronger. There was outrage. There were protests. I was unhappy. MANY people were unhappy. But guess what? That ruleset still perseveres today and every major tourney that means something runs it. Why? Because the MBR didn't do something as unfair as say "Hey, if you don't use my rules, we're not stickying your tournament or giving you other nice privileges." Melee-FC had some pretty radical rules (Mushroom Kingdom II and Jungle Japes were both legal, I believe), but that tourney still got some major advertising all over SWF.

Tl;dr - I don't care what rules you make, but don't suddenly make it so that I'm forced to either follow them with my own tourney or pay by being left out of some 'exclusive benefits club'.

And if you want to harp on Dedede's wall infinite as being the only reason Shadow Moses is banned, many other characters have wall infinites and wall locks/chain throws over 100% (hence the major problem with perma walls).

I never really said Dedede was the only reason Shadow Moses is banned. <__< In fact, if you looked at the context of my original posts regarding the issue, you'd have seen that I do indeed infer that wall infinites in general lead to it being unviable. I specifically mentioned DDD because of Illuvial's reply to Jebus. Jebus made perfect sense, too. DDD is the only char other than the ICs with a CG that works all the time on the chars it works on while also traversing the stage, until he runs into a wall to infinite you on.

 

[DeLux]

Gonna tell all the pro-ban people (or any passionate stance on whatever specific rule) the same thing I told them before/during/after the URC pushed MK Ban

If you want and support a ban, posting about it online in this forum isn't going to matter. Hosting and running a successful tournament series is going to matter. Lobbying your TO with whatever political leverage you have matters.

As Thoreau so elegantly wrote: "Cast your whole vote, not a strip of paper merely, but your whole influence. A minority is powerless while it conforms to the majority; it is not even a minority then; but it is irresistible when it clogs by its whole weight."

An online poll means nothing. If you want change, make it happen.

TLDR - Should probably take it to a different forum if you want to not waste your time

 

[bubbaking]

Well, as I said, I don't care too much about the rules being made, 'cause if I don't like them, I'll run my own tourneys, but I don't like being excluded from certain benefits on these forums just because I run my tourneys the way I like, and that's an issue to be discussed on these forums, not somewhere else. :-|

"Hosting and running a successful tournament series" is hard if SWF won't give me access to all the tools that are conducive towards making that happen. So whatever happens, don't start becoming an exclusive group again. That was annoying.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Gonna tell all the pro-ban people (or any passionate stance on whatever specific rule) the same thing I told them before/during/after the URC pushed MK Ban

If you want and support a ban, posting about it online in this forum isn't going to matter. Hosting and running a successful tournament series is going to matter. Lobbying your TO with whatever political leverage you have matters.

As Thoreau so elegantly wrote: "Cast your whole vote, not a strip of paper merely, but your whole influence. A minority is powerless while it conforms to the majority; it is not even a minority then; but it is irresistible when it clogs by its whole weight."

An online poll means nothing. If you want change, make it happen.

TLDR - Should probably take it to a different forum if you want to not waste your time

But wasting time is all we know how to do

 

[ShadowLink84]

Dude that's Isai's quote don't try and give it to someone else.

Dude, it isn't Isai's anything.

The phrase was used long before Isai used it, and it is used ALOT more in the MH community than the Smash community.
GTFO with dat meat riding.

 

[da K.I.D.]

the same things that made permanent walls and walk offs ghey in Melee is the same stuff that made permanent walls and walkoffs ghey in Brawl. That part didn't change between the two games. Brawl just made it easier and more widespread.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

da K.I.D., can I have an automatic co-sign yet? I mean, you gave one to Browny.

 

[Jabejazz]

P.S nobody likes seagulls

Yo **** your **** son.
Seagulls are bro tier as far as animals go. I mean, they eat the stuff you can't eat because you're full/it's disgusting/it's not edible at all.
Simply because of that, they're basically on par with dogs.

Bro tier :
Dogs, Seagulls

God tier :
Platypus, Ducks, Penguins

Top tier :
Cats

High Tier :
Apes, Sloths

Mid tier :
Every sub-par bird that isn't a duck or a penguin

Low tier :
Rodents

Bottom tier :
Everything else

You ****ing dingus what the **** are you doing with your life tier :
Fishes.

This tier list cannot be argued, because my opinion is superior and is backed by years of data collection of my personal inputs.*

*This may or may not be true. Must be 18 or above to enter. No purchase required. Batteries not included.